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View Full Version : Is it "right" to "shelter and feed" the poor with no gain for anything?



Raf
06-15-2005, 06:33 PM
What I mean is, do you think it is right to feed and shelter the poor instead of having them go and do it themselves? Personally, I think that under certain conditions yes. If they can work, then no they should go get an job and take care of themselves. If they are crippled and cannot take care of themselves then yes their should be somewhere that they can go to be taken care of. But that is just me. :)

ShadowPyro
06-15-2005, 06:36 PM
Depends. Like you said. If they cannot work, can't find a job, or are just crippled you help them. If they can work, wait till they get a job, a place to stay then say good bye.

TheUnholyNightbringer
06-15-2005, 06:37 PM
And what if people are able to work, yet there's no work for them? Do you not help them then?

coke_a_holic
06-15-2005, 06:38 PM
What the fuck is wrong with you? These people need help! You expect them just to die on the streets? You are fucked up in the head, dude. Might want to rethink your ideas on being "humane."

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 06:38 PM
If they can work, then no they should go get an job and take care of themselves.

It's not as easy as just going out and getting a job though, because if it was, there wouldn't BE poor people in the first place. Not only are there not many jobs out there, the jobs that are available often just aren't great. Additionally, work shouldn't have to come at the sacrifice of dignity; that is to say that people should have the right to earn a decent, respectable living, and shouldn't have to settle for the only job available.

I've done tons of work with the poor, and I come from a poor family myself, so I'm speaking mostly from experience.

ShadowPyro
06-15-2005, 06:39 PM
wait till they get a job, a place to stay then say good bye.
If they can't find work, you help them till then, or just help them without leaving them.

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 06:41 PM
Oh and Raf, for future reference, this probably should have gone in the Politics forum.

coke_a_holic
06-15-2005, 06:42 PM
They wouldn't be poor if their parents weren't poor as well. It's a vicious cycle, if someone doesn't have enough money for college, they get a crap job, and maybe won't have enough to own a house. Then, their children won't have enough for college, and the cycle continues. It's not as easy as "get a job!" They're humans as well, and they don't deserve to be cast to the streets.

Raf
06-15-2005, 06:43 PM
What I am saying, is those "poor" people who don't want to get a job, irregardless if they can or not, they make no effort to help themselves and assume that everybody owes them. That is the subject I am targeting.

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 06:48 PM
What I am saying, is those "poor" people who don't want to get a job, irregardless if they can or not, they make no effort to help themselves and assume that everybody owes them. That is the subject I am targeting.

You'd be surprised to find out that the amount of people who refuse to work is shockingly low. Seriously, it's easy to assume that those people don't want to get a job, but it is VERY RARE that the case is like that. And even then, I think we should find a way to get those people motivated and want to work, and actually live decently.
Now, if what you mean is that a person doesn't want to disrespect himself by working as a janitor at some supermarket or something of that nature, then that's not refusal to work; that's similar to what I mentioned earlier...people shouldn't have to sacrifice dignity for employment, and should get the jobs they are qualified for.

coke_a_holic
06-15-2005, 06:48 PM
Why would you even ask that? Are you sadistic? This is in all honesty, why would you believe someone doesn't deserve to be helped depending on how they feel about jobs? They deserve to be held in the same respect as anyone else, a human is a human.

Raf
06-15-2005, 06:49 PM
They wouldn't be poor if their parents weren't poor as well. It's a vicious cycle, if someone doesn't have enough money for college, they get a crap job, and maybe won't have enough to own a house. Then, their children won't have enough for college, and the cycle continues. It's not as easy as "get a job!" They're humans as well, and they don't deserve to be cast to the streets.

No that is bullshit. It doesnt have everything to do with parents. Even if you are dirt poor you can still be successful. Because all you have to do is do well in school and then apply for scholorships, loans, federal grants. Its easy to do if you take the iniciative. And yes if you take loans and stuff most likely you will have to pay them back, but if you do well in college then obviously, once you get your degree you will be able to pay back the loans much faster. So dont say their is no way. Dont say their is a cycle. Because if so, I am determined to break it.

TheUnholyNightbringer
06-15-2005, 06:51 PM
Dude, if it was that easy, don't you think it would have been done by now? Oh yeah, everyone does well in school, gets a scholarship, gets a great job, and suddenly, nobody is poor.

Some kids don't do well in schools because their background pulls them down. Bad neighbourhoods, kids not going to school because of cultures.. it really isnt as simple as "do well and get a job".

Raf
06-15-2005, 06:53 PM
Why would you even ask that? Are you sadistic? This is in all honesty, why would you believe someone doesn't deserve to be helped depending on how they feel about jobs? They deserve to be held in the same respect as anyone else, a human is a human.

No dude, no. If a person will not take the effort to help themselves, why should they be helped in return?

Raf
06-15-2005, 06:55 PM
Dude, if it was that easy, don't you think it would have been done by now? Oh yeah, everyone does well in school, gets a scholarship, gets a great job, and suddenly, nobody is poor.

Some kids don't do well in schools because their background pulls them down. Bad neighbourhoods, kids not going to school because of cultures.. it really isnt as simple as "do well and get a job".

No man, that is life. Its not the culture or society, they make their choices, and in return deal with the consequences of them.

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 06:56 PM
Holy CRAP. That is RIDICULOUS.

Okay, take this from someone who is going to be the first member of his family EVER to attend college, and attend a really great one too. But what coke_a_holic said is NOT bullshit. It's not easy, and in fact, the fact that I'm doing what I'm doing with my life is miraculous. Look at the rates if you don't believe me.



No that is bullshit. It doesnt have everything to do with parents. Even if you are dirt poor you can still be successful. Because all you have to do is do well in school and then apply for scholorships, loans, federal grants.

It's not as easy as just doing well in school, because poor schools don't have the resources necessary, and as a result, just don't provide a quality education. Doing well in a school that isn't even good provides no hope for college.



And yes if you take loans and stuff most likely you will have to pay them back, but if you do well in college then obviously, once you get your degree you will be able to pay back the loans much faster. So dont say their is no way. Dont say their is a cycle. Because if so, I am determined to break it.

Applying for loans, grants, and scholarships aren't simple either, because there are subtle catches all over, and nothing is guaranteed. And getting a job is NEVER A GUARANTEE NO MATTER WHAT, and paying back loans is never easy, especially if you come from a poor family.

Yes, it is a cycle, and I'm one of the few who has broken it, but it is the most difficult thing imaginable.

TheUnholyNightbringer
06-15-2005, 06:56 PM
...

I'm not going to debate this anymore. This is utterly ridiculous.

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 06:57 PM
they make their choices, and in return deal with the consequences of them.

Oops! I forgot that everybody, including myself, chooses before birth to be born into a poor family. We also choose to go to underfunded schools! One time my elementary schools was given a grant, and I made damn sure they rejected it!

coke_a_holic
06-15-2005, 06:57 PM
No that is bullshit. It doesnt have everything to do with parents. Even if you are dirt poor you can still be successful. Because all you have to do is do well in school and then apply for scholorships, loans, federal grants.
What are you talking about? It has a lot to do with parents. Parents support the child, and they may not be able to pay for somethings like lab fees or books. Also, if the child's parents are dirt poor, than they might need to leave school to support their family. Doing well in school may not be as easy as it may be for a middle-class white kid. Unless they're EXTREMELY determined and get loads of support from parents, than they are probably going to do as well as the average student (B-C average).

Its easy to do if you take the iniciative. And yes if you take loans and stuff most likely you will have to pay them back, but if you do well in college then obviously, once you get your degree you will be able to pay back the loans much faster.Even if they DO get $1000s to go to college, they wont be able to eat for weeks until they make enough to pay for their time in college.

So dont say their is no way. Dont say their is a cycle. Because if so, I am determined to break it.There is a cycle, though. Parents support the children; if there isn't enough money, than the children will drop out. The dropped-out children will be poor as well, and so will their kids.


EDIT: I was extremely late.

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 06:59 PM
Pfft, shut up Mike! I made the choice to be poor and keep this cycle going, and I'll be damned if you're going to mess it up with your truth!

coke_a_holic
06-15-2005, 07:00 PM
Pfft, shut up Mike! I made the choice to be poor and keep this cycle going, and I'll be damned if you're going to mess it up with your truth!
Yessum....

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 07:05 PM
Thank you!

*takes rightful seat beside dumpster*

TheUnholyNightbringer
06-15-2005, 07:06 PM
Dude, stop being so.. like.. poor. I'm off doing well in school and getting an awesome job and you're in my way. Inconsiderate fuck.

Raf
06-15-2005, 07:07 PM
It's not as easy as just doing well in school, because poor schools don't have the resources necessary, and as a result, just don't provide a quality education. Doing well in a school that isn't even good provides no hope for college.

Touche'


Applying for loans, grants, and scholarships aren't simple either, because there are subtle catches all over, and nothing is guaranteed. And getting a job is NEVER A GUARANTEE NO MATTER WHAT, and paying back loans is never easy, especially if you come from a poor family.

Yes, it is a cycle, and I'm one of the few who has broken it, but it is the most difficult thing imaginable.

Yes, I know it is difficult. I know, you dont have to tell me, but like you I am determined to break that cycle. I am not just going to sit around and be "poor" and ask for stuff on end because I made bad choices education wise before. I am going to college if it is the last thing I ever do, And I will be the first in my family to go to college also. Well relatively close, I dunno bout my great grandparents or anything. But atleast I am going to try and do something about it. Also notice I said if they have no way to fend for themselves, a poor education because of poor school does infact qualify for that position. :)

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 07:07 PM
I'm sorry!

*moves and sits BEHIND the dumpster instead*

...Hey Baisle, what are you doing back here? Long time no see.

TheUnholyNightbringer
06-15-2005, 07:09 PM
That's BETTER. And a bit less of that empty wallet treatment, too.

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 07:09 PM
Yes, I know it is difficult. I know, you dont have to tell me, but like you I am determined to break that cycle. I am not just going to sit around and be "poor" and ask for stuff on end because I made bad choices education wise before. I am going to college if it is the last thing I ever do, And I will be the first in my family to go to college also. Well relatively close, I dunno bout my great grandparents or anything. But atleast I am going to try and do something about it. Also notice I said if they have no way to fend for themselves, a poor education because of poor school does infact qualify for that position.
It sounds like you're in the EXACT same boat I was in a few years back, Raf, so I honestly wish you nothing but the best. It's going to be a million times harder for you than it is for your peers, but trust me, it IS POSSIBLE to do this. I had to claw my way to where I am now.

coke_a_holic
06-15-2005, 07:11 PM
Yes, I know it is difficult. I know, you dont have to tell me, but like you I am determined to break that cycle. I am not just going to sit around and be "poor" and ask for stuff on end because I made bad choices education wise before. I am going to college if it is the last thing I ever do, And I will be the first in my family to go to college also. Well relatively close, I dunno bout my great grandparents or anything. But atleast I am going to try and do something about it. Also notice I said if they have no way to fend for themselves, a poor education because of poor school does infact qualify for that position. :)
What cycle? If you have a computer, you're not poor. If it has internet access, you're DEFINITELY not poor in the least.

TheUnholyNightbringer
06-15-2005, 07:11 PM
What cycle? If you have a computer, you're not poor. If it has internet access, you're DEFINITELY not poor in the least.

Could be in a library or Internet Cafe.

Betty
06-15-2005, 07:12 PM
Bah, I don't think the argument is ridiculous. Perhaps more harsh than I would put it, but I strongly support that anybody can succeed if they have enough will to do so. I will agree that the background, etc, makes it harder, but not impossible.

coke_a_holic
06-15-2005, 07:13 PM
Could be in a library or Internet Cafe.

...True. Still, if he was poor he wouldn't be pro-not-allowing-poor-people-stay-in-shelters. Unless of course, he wanted the shelter all to himself...

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 07:13 PM
What cycle? If you have a computer, you're not poor. If it has internet access, you're DEFINITELY not poor in the least.

Actually, that's not true. The annual income of my household is less than $5,000 a year (seriously), but getting a computer and Internet access is quite easy if you're smart about it.

Dave, clear some PM space! I have a response for ya.

TheUnholyNightbringer
06-15-2005, 07:14 PM
Bah, I don't think the argument is ridiculous. Perhaps more harsh than I would put it, but I strongly support that anybody can succeed if they have enough will to do so. I will agree that the background, etc, makes it harder, but not impossible.

I'm not saying that the argument's ridiculous. I'm saying that the idea that anyone can become rich if they just do well in school and get an awesome job is ridiculous.

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 07:16 PM
TUNB said what I wanted to say to Betty before I could. Plus, the fact is that two people can work just as hard as one another, but the key difference is often background. If I work just as hard as someone else who happens to come from a rich family, for example, he has a MUCH better chance at success because he can focus on it easier (among other more obvious reasons, of course). Additionally, his connections are stronger.

Endymion
06-15-2005, 07:16 PM
this is a very poorly defined topic. does the poster mean is it proper for the government to preform charity work?

my personal opinion is that such matters should be left to private entities. either churches or private donations to an organization.

i don't see how it's possible to blanket all of charity as either right or wrong.

coke_a_holic
06-15-2005, 07:17 PM
Actually, that's not true. The annual income of my household is less than $5,000 a year (seriously), but getting a computer and Internet access is quite easy if you're smart about it.
...Okay. Sorry, I'm pretty rich compared to some (pretty poor compared to the rest of my town, but whatever), and I really don't know anything in this sense. I'm just talking based off of what I think is humane and what I've learned in my US History class.

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 07:18 PM
No worries, Mike, because I can see why you would think that. It makes sense to me too, but then I found out that it's not quite that way.

Betty
06-15-2005, 07:22 PM
Oh definitely, I agree with that. The hardness of work and effort required does not equate at all. But my point is that anybody can potentially do it if they just work hard enough. I don't like using the background as a complete excuse, only a partial explanation. That's not a good attitude anyway. A better one is "See what Ricky did??? You can too!"

And the doing well in school argument... is not so good. Well, it's decent, but is not a "fix everything" solution. I did awesome and got lots of cash. But my best friend did well, and didn't get a cent. Cause it just wasn't good enough... winner takes all... etc. But still, you have to maintain decent grades to get into post secondary school and be able to apply for loans and whatnot, if that is the path one chooses to take.

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 07:26 PM
Oh definitely, I agree with that. The hardness of work and effort required does not equate at all. But my point is that anybody can potentially do it if they just work hard enough. I don't like using the background as a complete excuse, only a partial explanation. That's not a good attitude anyway. A better one is "See what Ricky did??? You can too!"

Well said Mee-shell, and of course I'm with you. However, though I don't like using the background as a complete excuse ALL the time (I think way too many people use it as a crutch because it's easy to do that), there are cases where the background is the complete reason. Of course that doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen. Still, you're exactly right...it's incredibly difficult, and in some cases impossible (like what happened to your friend there, which is a common problem), but that shouldn't stop anyone at all, because of reasons we both stated.

Betty
06-15-2005, 07:32 PM
Sometimes I feel kinda cheap saying what I say because I've never been in that position. I've worked incredibly hard for what I have accomplished, but I know it's not the same.

Still, I'd like to think that if I were in that sort of position, I would be like you. Or the other success stories out there.

JohnnyNemesis
06-15-2005, 07:36 PM
Sometimes I feel kinda cheap saying what I say because I've never been in that position. I've worked incredibly hard for what I have accomplished, but I know it's not the same.

This is undeniably true, but you remember this: you clearly understand that there are differences between people who have been in these situations and people who haven't, so you shouldn't feel cheap at all in my opinion. You can never understand 100% unless you live it (the same way I wouldn't totally understand your situation), but you understand well, and that is key.

wheelchairman
06-16-2005, 05:30 AM
I would say that, Especially in the situation of America, if people are poor, and there is no class mobility, than it has a lot to do with the political and economical situation.

I mean countries in Western Europe have a lot more success in getting people out of the lower class into the middle class than America does, largely because of the way government funds education and the poor.

In America, funds for schools are paid for by the surrounding incomes. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the class divide in education that creates.

And the only jobs that are becoming available in America, are in the part-time service sector types of jobs. The rest can be shipped off, and inevitably are. (Which is odd, generally I thought conservatives were *against* the exportation of jobs. I guess this might be uniquely American, or simply, uniquely Bush.) But there simply aren't enough jobs for all the unemployed, and until there are, they are the responsibility of the government, *not* charity.

And that wasn't really a reply or an argument against anyone, as me outlining my thoughts.