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RXP
11-10-2004, 03:31 PM
A question, are you a communist? A Marxist or what? You seem to have an indepth knowledge of this area. If so I'd be interested in your views of what would make society 'work'.

wheelchairman
11-10-2004, 03:43 PM
I'm a Marxist-Leninist with thoughts that sometimes go along the Maoist (MLM) line. And sometimes they go even as far as Juche (North Korean development of Socialism.) However I'm also influenced with thoughts from Nietzche and Machiavelli as well. But most basically a Marxist-Leninist.

And I'm afraid your question is too broad, could you rephrase it, or make it more specific?

SicN Twisted
11-10-2004, 11:26 PM
Do you believe Lenin's Russia, Mao's China, or Kim Il-Sung's North Korea are ideal countries? If so, I've highly overestimated your intelligence. You obviously care about human rights and equality, so how could you model your views after those of bureaucratic tyrants?

wheelchairman
11-10-2004, 11:30 PM
I generally don't know enough about North Korea to say my opinion on it. I meant purely on a theoretical level.

As for Lenin's Russia, no it certainly was not an ideal state. However that does not mean that I will negate the accomplishments achieved in his Russia, the same goes for Mao.

SicN Twisted
11-10-2004, 11:35 PM
You think that the invention of death camps was an accomplishment? You think the first modern genocide was an accomplishment? What about the starvation and ethnic cleansing of 30 million Chinese.

Also, if you don't know much about North Korea, talk to a North Korean refugee. WHen you say you agree with Mao'ism, etc, in theory, does that mean you believe in a secret police that hunts down and murders thousands of political dissenters? Do you believe in a small central committee that creates policy and law and gives the people they claim to represent absolutely no say? Do you believe that the state has the right to arbitrarily murder people? Do you not believe in freedom of speech?

Marxist Leninism is an oxymoron. Lenin's policies, and Mao's proved him to be a vicious bureaucratic tyrant, not a peoples leader.

wheelchairman
11-11-2004, 03:56 AM
You think that the invention of death camps was an accomplishment? You think the first modern genocide was an accomplishment? What about the starvation and ethnic cleansing of 30 million Chinese.
Death camps, I would seriously doubt in their existence. In both Russia and China under Lenin and Mao. And from what I've read there was no great purge in China. That I find hard to believe.


Also, if you don't know much about North Korea, talk to a North Korean refugee.
I have. I've also talked to many people who live in North Korea. I'm not convinced yet.


WHen you say you agree with Mao'ism, etc, in theory, does that mean you believe in a secret police that hunts down and murders thousands of political dissenters?
Hmm that must be a tenet of Maoism that I have yet to read. Which work of his was this in? Can you find it for me at www.marx2mao.com (it doesn't have all of Mao's works, but quite a substantial part of them.)


Do you believe in a small central committee that creates policy and law and gives the people they claim to represent absolutely no say?
Actually no, I've never liked the theory of the Vanguard party and would never try and implement it in practice.


Do you believe that the state has the right to arbitrarily murder people?
During a revolutionary situation, of course. Afterwards absolutely not.


Do you not believe in freedom of speech?
Yes, but for who? to say what? What we have today is the freedom for people to write and print what they want, as long as the publisher and media moguls agree with it. Under a worker's state the reverse would be the situation.


Marxist Leninism is an oxymoron.
In what way?
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=oxymoron



Lenin's policies, and Mao's proved him to be a vicious bureaucratic tyrant, not a peoples leader.
I'd disagree.

Vera
11-11-2004, 12:03 PM
Tell me people in North Korea have a better life than the people in South Korea and watch my reaction.

Not Ozymandias
11-11-2004, 12:08 PM
Their lives are more...exciting.

wheelchairman
11-11-2004, 01:35 PM
Why should their lives be? North Korea has been far more isolated from the international community. There was that large famine a few years ago, and then there is also those trade embargos.

From what I know, (and these are all questionable sources) I think North Koreans are doing fine for what they have.

Vera
11-11-2004, 01:48 PM
Yes, doing fine starving while their government invests on more weapons.

wheelchairman
11-11-2004, 02:04 PM
Oh right, because the American military in South Korea, and the South Korean army exist solely to have picnics and tickle each other.

Vera
11-11-2004, 02:05 PM
At least the people there have food to eat and don't have to eat dead family members.

wheelchairman
11-11-2004, 02:08 PM
oh right because they eat dead family members in North Korea. That can't possibly be the most absurd lie ever.

From what I've read, each family gets a certain amount of pounds of rice in North Korea each month. (this obviously being rationing) so starvation no, abundance however, not much of that either.

Vera
11-11-2004, 02:10 PM
It was an exaggeration yes, but a lie? Not really, no.

OMG A CUP OF RICE, YAY! That makes the everything so much better for them.

RXP
11-11-2004, 02:17 PM
At least the people there have food to eat and don't have to eat dead family members.

Exactly. I really can't see how WCM thinks North Korea is doing just fine.

Arabian Knight
11-11-2004, 02:24 PM
Wheelchairman, I would suggest that you read N. Steinmayr's book :Long live Korean reunification and independence! Down with Korean revisionism! (http://www.allianceml.com/China/KoreaNS.htm). It is more or less correct.

wheelchairman
11-11-2004, 02:30 PM
OMG A CUP OF RICE, YAY! That makes the everything so much better for them.
I would say so when they are isolated from most of the world trade wise. That can cripple a country, especially one that was so harmed by war.

Thanks for the link Nair, I will read it soon.

Mota Boy
11-11-2004, 02:41 PM
I think that arguing in favor of a country that forcibly prevents its citizens from emigrating is possibly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Moose
11-11-2004, 02:48 PM
I would actually like to know why you believe in the ideas of Marx and why you believe an economy should be run that way. A follow up: do you believe it is possible to run a communist country without the negative effects that have occured in the past such as brutal dictators. I really would like to know your own theory and ideas in how to run a country, meaning your form of government and economy.

wheelchairman
11-11-2004, 03:02 PM
Why I'm a Marxist?
It's been a philosophy I've found attractive for a long time. Even before I knew who Marx was or what pubic hair was for that matter. A classless society was always what I thought was ideal, (although it was in much more immature forms.) Also I think if you can accept Marx's class theory (that the rich (this excludes of course doctors, media and sports stars and is referring to owners of companies) exploit the poor for their own profit.) Then I don't see how you cannot be a Marxist upon accepting that.

Why I believe an economy should be run that way?
Well we have to make a difference between the socialist planned economy and the economy of communism. (One requires the state and the other will happen without the state.) It basically goes along the lines that with competition we can achieve so much, but with cooperation we can achieve much more.


do you believe it is possible to run a communist country without the negative effects that have occured in the past such as brutal dictators
Of course. The fact that you felt the need to ask that question though, gives me the feeling that you don't.

If I were to run a socialist country, I'll use Denmark as an example. (This is because socialism will be, and must be different for each and every country.)

Well should I come to power, the government would be run by a system of worker's councils. (since this is the class that the communists represent.) Therefore the future socialist government should always be elected by worker's councils. I'd add peasants as well but since Denmark has about 5 of those I won't.

The reforms I'd make, well first I'd probably pull Denmark out of the EU and NATO completely. I'd nationalize all industry and banks. I'd arm the population. I'd probably create a national boycott of all products from Israel for instance. There are a lot of reforms I'd make.

The idealistic communist state for me, would be a system of small communities that produced products and produce and then made small independent trading groups. For example Commune A produces an abundance of Sugar, while it lacks salt. So Commune B, which produced too much Salt and not enough sugar would obviously trade their abundances, so then they could feed everyone. And as I pointed out, every commune would produce products and produce. This implies that there would be a much smaller difference between farming and manufacturing. And that often everyone would do both. While also maintaining several free-time activities communally and individually etc.

I would not make the mistake of repressing religion, since it's practically dead in Denmark anyways. I would most likely appropriate the private property of people like Mærsk McKinnley Møller since there are people in Denmark who need it more than this asshole. (he's the richest man in Denmark because he's been exploiting the lack of laws of international waters for decades now.)

I'd instantly make legal things like abortions, gay marriage, etc. I would try to have art flourish etc.

These are just general ideas, of course this is all hypothetical. In a revolutionary situation things may be different. There will be scenarios I haven't thought of but this is basically my dream I suppose.

SicN Twisted
11-11-2004, 09:40 PM
Dude, I've read everyone on marx2mao. You need to understand that their policies on paper radically differ from their actualy policies. Smithonian capitalism didn't mention corperate welfare either, but that's become a tenent of capitalism. Btw, the Russian gulags are all historically documented. Hundreds of witnesses, media exposure have proven them. It's not like Lenin or Stalin tried to cover them up either - the crimes committed by Stalin and Mao are historical documents, overshadowed by mass graves. Denying them would be like denying the Holocaust. Most repressive regimes don't advocate repression in their literature. The magic word is hypocracy. It's fact, not opinion, the millions were starved as a great result of the great leap forward. What's next, can you socialogically justify the iron curtain?

I also think it's rediculous to claim North Korea as an ideal society. Yeah, starvation is more the fault of the embargo then North Korean socialism, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the single most repressive regime in existence. Countless people are murdered for speaking their opinions. North Koreans are taught to believe that Kil Il Sung invented the toaster, was the first man on the mood, and other rediculous claims. There's a vigile to him in every apartment where people are selected by the government to live in and not even allowed to move without a permit. North Korea is NOT a real socialist country, it's simply a police state run by a power hungry meglomaniac. I've been there, buddy. If statistics aren't enough to convince you, go their yourself.

I don't see how you find repressive bureaucracies that dissallow intellectualism and individualism and completely control every detail of peoples lives the answer the problems in the world. Even the US is unanimously considered preferable then the hazardous conditions the governments you ideolize.

SicN Twisted
11-11-2004, 09:46 PM
If you don't believe an vanguard parties, then how come to love Lenin? He invented the idea of forming central commities to control "workers states. (which I can hardly call workers states because workers are not allowed to unionize). " Lenin even had his fellow socialist mencheviks murdered because they gave the people too much of a say. Maoist China and North Korea also had exclusive central commities.

I have to reiterate again, how the FUCK can you justify North Korean "socalism." Kim Jung Il is quite the hypocrit because he's taking money away from the workers in order to fund his rediculous weapons programs. Again, GO TO NORTH KOREA. Try to openly critisze any tenent of the governments policies... you will probably be tortured to death.

wheelchairman
11-12-2004, 07:48 AM
The Gulags under Stalin are an interesting question in themselves. It's a well known fact that people died under Stalin, that I won't dispute, nor have I ever said that I uphold Stalin. However a lot of records concerning the numbers in the GULAG were burned during Khruschev's time, and then magically found again under Glasnost somehow. Personally I think the most realistic number is around 5 million people under Stalin's reign in the GULAG. (which is significantly less than the Robert Conquest numbers). However is still pretty high if we hadn't been brought up with the fact that Stalin killed 3 billion people and ate children. Just an interesting thought.

Sic, where have I said that no one died under the Great Leap Forward?

And again, I've never said North Korea was faultless. I certainly don't like the personality cults. That is disgusting in itself. I just think a lot of what we read today are extreme exagerations and lies. Just like when Bush offered free injections to all Cuban children if the Cubans overthrew their system. (Seeing as Cuba has free healthcare this is a stupid offer and shows just how propaganda can work.)

On your last post, where have I said that I love Lenin? To call myself a Marxist-Leninist must I dogmatically uphold everything without criticism? If you believe so, then you've obviously not read much from Marx2mao.

Vera
11-12-2004, 10:34 AM
Dude, you're so brainwashed it's kind of amusing.

wheelchairman
11-12-2004, 10:40 AM
oh shit Vera called me brainwashed. I better change my opinions to exactly what she thinks because she can only make comments like that instead of posting a useful argument. huzzah!

Vera
11-12-2004, 10:48 AM
Oh please, like I'm going to argue with someone who would "take all that information about death camps with a grain of salt". That alone shows how backward some of your ideas about communism are. And the fact you think things in North Korea are just ho-diddly-do okay...

To be truthful, it frightens me a bit. Many of these governments haven't done much good for the people. At least not as much as the suffering and death they've caused.

wheelchairman
11-12-2004, 10:59 AM
Of course I tell you to take it with a grain of salt. If you think I'm brainwashed, don't you think it's equally brainwashed to not question the sources and interests of those who write most on the GULAG and the DPRK?

I mean I believe in 1938 there were 180 million Russians. The usual Western historian says that between 30 million and 120 million Russians were killed in 1938. Now, you have to understand, at this point in time it would be very difficult to kill that many Russians. Russia is huge, the infrastructure was far from perfect, and the kind of planning to execute this kind of action would be almost insurmountable from Moscow.

As for the DPRK, I have never said it was an ideal state, nor have I said it was perfect. I said it was fine, I do think it's clearly oppressed by the American economic and military presence and that causes horrible things to happen. I do think that the Juche tenet of The Leader of the People is possibly the stupidest theory I've read in a long time. However I do think that the DPRK deserves it's sovereignty from America, that America should respect it's borders and allow the DPRK to develop. And that progress has been made since the Korean war.

Now there is a difference Vera, between brainwashed, and just not being openly and constantly critical of states that you don't like.

Vera
11-12-2004, 11:18 AM
All news sources should be questioned and viewed critically but saying a shitload of people didn't get killed because of the fucked up socialist governments running their countries at that time is just ridiculous.

In Russia, the millions of people died for various reasons. Some died as soldiers, some simply out of hunger because of crop failure and all that and some on death/work camps. Stalin didn't "kill" them in full meaning of the world, but his actions caused a huge amount of deaths.

But I believe Sic is having this argument with you already, so I'll just leave it to him, let you get the last word so you convince yourself you completely owned me in this conversation and let you carry on with your life.

PS. My mother was a communist when she was your age. Then she grew up. ;p

wheelchairman
11-12-2004, 11:27 AM
Vera- Soldiers dying can hardly be called a tragedy of socialism. That is what basically happens when you have an army and Nazi Germany engages you in a land war.

And on crop failure, I never said I supported the Stalin method of forced collectivation. It was blatantly un-marxist, even in theory.

sKratch
11-12-2004, 12:37 PM
Just a few remarks:

You say you would nationalize the economy of Denmark and pull it out of supernational groups/treaties, yet you complain about the trade embargos and international seculusion of North Korea and Cuba. Don't quite understand that.

You say it would be difficult to kill so many Russians because the country is so large. A very, very, very large percentage of the population lives in the western parts of Russia near the European border.

Lastly, you always seem to argue that the death tolls are much lower in your opinion from what you've read. What you haven't done is address these still high numbers of deaths. Why is it right to kill so many people to establish a government? Obviously those masses who are killed do not support such a movement.

wheelchairman
11-12-2004, 02:04 PM
Skratch-
I'd pull Denmark out of the EU because it is becoming less and less a free-trade agreement and more and more a centralized state. It basically allows the free flow of capital from national bourgeois to other national bourgeois. Some trade that.

What Cuba needs is to be able to reach new markets, I do not mean it should join NAFTA for instance (although it's not really a part of North America) just that it should be able to sell it's cigars, rum and sugar on a wider market since it would most certainly help the Cuban economy.

Your right a large percentage does live in the European part of Russia, but it's been generally commented by Western Historians that the purges were felt all over Russia.

I've never tried to justify the 5 million deaths under Stalin. I thought I mentioned that.

SicN Twisted
11-13-2004, 03:35 AM
Comrade, you are seriously living in a socialistic working man's little box. I've read everything on marx2mao. I've also read the Communist Manifesto, and a shitload of Che biographies too. I still see that self styled tyranical dictatorships came out of "marxist-leninist-maosist-bullshit-socailist" leaders you're praizing. Soviet style communist prisons that structured society around puritanical devotion to authory and forced conformity did not fulfil Marx's utopian prophecies. But at least you tried, Comrad.

malumboman
11-16-2004, 04:04 PM
wheelchairman, i hope you roll off a cliff soon

Jasonstanton83
11-16-2004, 06:14 PM
I used to be a fan of communism (and still am a fan of socialism). I followed it religiously, but then i grew up.

Communist nations have killed more people than ALL wars put together.

More people have died from 1917 up until the fall of communism in russia than in both world wars. The camps in siberia, the chinese death drives, the sacking and invasion of tibet, the humans rights violations in EVERY communist nation.

Live in a leninist bubble my friend, one day you'll awaken to reality and drop the love of the theories as you face the truth that people arent able to fulfill the marxist ideals.
Failing that and you aid a communist revolution, as with all communist regimes, the intelligent are the first to be put up against the wall and shot, so you have a choice....are you intelligent or are you a true commie?

malumboman
11-16-2004, 08:59 PM
communists suck

Horse
11-16-2004, 10:59 PM
marx, lenin, communism, no matter what theories u follow what u must realise is that howeva good they sound as a theory when put into practice most of them fail. and usuali the greater the theory is on paper the less successful it is when practiced.

NOAMR
11-17-2004, 07:25 AM
communists suck
best argument ever heard :confused: . Well, think that communism in the past has failed, cuz people has taken to mush power again. Think the idea of communism is okay, only the power of the government is too mush. Everyone should be equal, but no-one is the same.

wheelchairman
11-17-2004, 12:20 PM
I question what you know of their theories. You say it's a good idea, but this is something you're parents/teachers have told you.

malumboman
11-17-2004, 02:09 PM
communists are stupid because they dont believe in god. only god fearing nations strive in this world that god created!

NOAMR
11-17-2004, 02:11 PM
Well, u might be right :D . Dunno who told me, they didn't really told me that's right, just what it is I guess. But hey, who carez I dont know a shit? I know something 'bout it, u know.

malumboman
11-17-2004, 02:23 PM
nothing is true until god makes it true

RXP
11-17-2004, 02:26 PM
God sucked me dick last night.

malumboman
11-17-2004, 02:29 PM
first off, god cannot suck your dick because he is spiritual, not physical. if you are trying to say you do not have a penis, then that is a whole other topic. however, if you are trying to say jesus sucked your penis, that would be more plausable. if that is the case, please inform me of your location because i would like to partake in the secondcumming ;)

RXP
11-17-2004, 02:40 PM
What about if you suck my dick? I'll pay you £5.

malumboman
11-17-2004, 02:42 PM
i am not homosexual. if you tell me you do not believe cocksucking is a sexual act, but rather a type of recreation, than i will do it for free!