PDA

View Full Version : Intelligence



Paint_It_Black
10-25-2005, 11:50 AM
I've seen several people kind of discussing intelligence lately. This is my attempt to have an actual discussion about how to define it, and how to measure it.

This is my theory.

Intelligence is something you're born with. Think we're all created equal? We're not. There are many ways of defining intelligence, but a broad and useful way of looking at it is to think of it as a measurement of how quickly we learn, and to what degree. Think of it as a computer, some of us are born with a better processor, more RAM etc. There are simple concepts we can all grasp, but when you get to more complex ones some of us will be faster to grasp them than others. Even more complex concepts will be beyond some of us completely. And you're stuck with it.

Now, going with the computer analogy, education is the software we install, but remember education doesn't need to be formal. You can teach yourself if you want to. But education can never raise your intelligence, just as software does not make your computer better. It just gives you more to do with it.

Wisdom is simply a form of education, but it is something you can really only teach yourself. It is generally accepted to come with age, because it in fact comes with life experience, which of course increases with age. But, since it is still a form of education, the rules I already stated apply. This means that wisdom is still limited by intelligence. If your intelligence is fairly low, then higher levels of wisdom will be beyond you, no matter what age you live to.

Truly measuring intelligence is very difficult. IQ tests, for example, only have significance if you are comparing people with very similar social backgrounds, as IQ tests have been proven to be cuturally biased. IQ tests also favour the more educated, and again, knowledge is not intelligence.

I suspect that intelligence could best be measured at a very young age, before education and cutural bias can play too large of a role. Utilizing mental puzzles in the form of a game, with a much desired reward for success, should be quite effective. If we can assume that all the children have the same desire to win, based on the reward, then we could conclude that the ones that solve the puzzles the quickest are the most intelligent. Repeating the experiment many times with various puzzles should make the results significant. I don't know enough about the brain to be able to suggest a fair test. Different types of puzzles may well stimulate different areas of the brain, and if so many different tests would be required, and the results correlated, to determine a general level of overall intelligence.
__________________

memento
10-25-2005, 11:54 AM
"We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality" -- Albert Einstein.

'Nuff said.

HeadAroundU
10-25-2005, 11:55 AM
http://www.offspring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17701&page=2

ruroken
10-25-2005, 11:58 AM
Pff, I believe that the art of learning gives people who aren't "born" intelligent the ability to become intelligent. It's just that not many people like to learn.

Paint_It_Black
10-25-2005, 11:59 AM
HAU, I deleted the post from that other thread because it didn't really belong there. See the challenge I made to you in that thread though.

Dush, I see your point, but that's not what this is supposed to be about. I'm not arguing that intelligence is the most important thing, I'd simply like to discuss the nature of it.

Ruroken, you consider education an art? If education makes us more intelligent, are you saying that intelligence is synonymous with knowledge? Then how would you measure intelligence? Simply by testing how many facts someone has learned?

memento
10-25-2005, 12:01 PM
The Einstein quote holds my views. Intelligence is like a muscle. You may have great genetic abilty for tissue voluminzation but it won't grow unless you feed it and train it. You need to actualise your potential to use one of those gay new age phrases.

killer_queen
10-25-2005, 12:02 PM
Of course we are born with intelligence but it's not just that. I believe that the period our intelligences grow is our childhood.
And I don't agree with ruroken. People can't become intelligent. They can just learn to seem intelligent. It's very easy.

memento
10-25-2005, 12:04 PM
That 'seem to be intelligent' doesn't make much sense surely. If you seem to be intelligent to all intenents and purposes to the outside world you are. You have to have some basis. Alot of people in my classes think I'm ridiclously smart becuase I am vocal and love the most abstract things they hate. I guess this is seemingly intelligent. BUt in reality when it comes down to examination they beat me. So I guess you can but it's just different facets.

Paint_It_Black
10-25-2005, 12:07 PM
Of course we are born with intelligence but it's not just that.

That's why I compared intelligence to a computer, and education to software. You can own the greatest computer in the world, but with no software it's useless.

Dush, I get that, but how do you personally define intelligence? And how do you think it can most accurately be quantified and compared?

HeadAroundU
10-25-2005, 12:09 PM
I believe!
that you can increase your intelligence by training your dumb brain with wishdom and education.
......IQ test are based on education!

memento
10-25-2005, 12:11 PM
I define smarts as the ability to understand reality. The most fundamental reality is physics. To those who understand physics truly they are the ones I label as intelligent. More than that I do so because there are so few people who can do it at a high level.

Paint_It_Black
10-25-2005, 12:12 PM
That 'seem to be intelligent' doesn't make much sense surely. If you seem to be intelligent to all intenents and purposes to the outside world you are. You have to have some basis.

You can easily fake being more intelligent than you truly are, because of the criteria people use to assess your intelligence. Look at this very bbs. If you type well, you are assumed more intelligent than someone who types badly. Yet this is a flawed assumption. More intelligent people tend to type well, but this does not mean that typing well proves you are intelligent. An idiot could do it if they chose to put in a little time and effort.

ruroken
10-25-2005, 12:14 PM
Ruroken, you consider education an art? If education makes us more intelligent, are you saying that intelligence is synonymous with knowledge? Then how would you measure intelligence? Simply by testing how many facts someone has learned?
Shit, don't interpret my words as literal meanings.
But who the hell needs to measure intelligence anyway? It's either you're smarter than or not smarter than the people around you.

memento
10-25-2005, 12:14 PM
I agree, but unlike the masses of morons I look to substance, not form.

killer_queen
10-25-2005, 12:16 PM
That 'seem to be intelligent' doesn't make much sense surely.
No, it does. People who live in an uneducated society and know some stuff seem intelligent. The retards in my class think I'm intelligent because I know the things which they don't know, because they don't know being educated and being intellgent aren't the same things.

Paint_It_Black
10-25-2005, 12:17 PM
I believe!
that you can increase your intelligence by training your dumb brain with wishdom and education.
......IQ test are based on education!

Maybe you could explain that better in your own language, I don't know. It sounds like you are saying that because IQ tests are based on education, then education must be the way to judge intelligence. It sounds like you are starting with a presumption that IQ tests are accurate, and drawing a conclusion from there. But IQ tests have been proven to be heavily flawed.

memento
10-25-2005, 12:18 PM
How intelligent you inheriantly are matters not. It matters on people's perceptions just like with everything else.

Paint_It_Black
10-25-2005, 12:24 PM
Shit, don't interpret my words as literal meanings.

When trying to discuss something complicated it's best if you try to only say what you literally mean, because it avoids confusion. I didn't really think you meant what you said literally, I was trying to provoke further discussion from you.


But who the hell needs to measure intelligence anyway? It's either you're smarter than or not smarter than the people around you.

But judging whether you are smarter than those around you is measuring, just in a crude manner. Who needs to measure? Well, it's interesting, even if it didn't have a purpose. But, as a society, it can be very useful to recognize who the more intelligent members are, so you can try to maximize their education and allow them to reach their full potential.

Paint_It_Black
10-25-2005, 12:25 PM
How intelligent you inheriantly are matters not. It matters on people's perceptions just like with everything else.

I would have to say that in this case the reality is just as important as the perception. But you'll probably argue that reality is perception.

memento
10-25-2005, 12:28 PM
Indeed I would. I like how you've got my cognition process down.

Paint_It_Black
10-25-2005, 12:35 PM
It's an interesting way to think, and useful in some areas, but just doesn't work in reality. The world has always been round, just because people used to perceive it as flat didn't make it true.

Betty
10-25-2005, 12:39 PM
This is one of those topics I've already thought about and come to conclusions about quite a while ago (basically what you came up with in the topic) so I don't find it particularly interesting to discuss anymore. At least at the fundamental level of "what is intelligence".

memento
10-25-2005, 12:39 PM
But that's not the point. Truths aren't the point. It's what other people think about you and rate you that matters in your everyday life. For the respect, job opportunities etc. I know some people who I think are stupid, they themselves think they aren't smart but they will end up getting a 2:1 from a good uni in a good subject. This will have crytalized their 'intelligence' to employers (as well as in interviews etc.). that's what matters. Not the truth.

Betty
10-25-2005, 12:41 PM
Meh. People who matter (aka people who are incredibly intelligent - not your boss or teacher) can recognize their peers.

memento
10-25-2005, 12:52 PM
I'd rather my employer thought I was smart than some nerd I hang out with at uni.

TheUnholyNightbringer
10-25-2005, 01:00 PM
I haven't really thought about this as much as I should have. The broad ideal I've always had is that education gives us knowledge, not intelligence. Knowing facts, measurements, and so on - the scientific stuff, stuff you can measure through exams and so on.

Intelligence is harder to measure - it's to be able to use said knowledge; in discussions, with other people, and so on. I don't really know how to explain it but that's what I've always thought. In short, knowledge is the scientific, and intelligence is the art.

Vera
10-25-2005, 01:03 PM
Eh.. So, you're basically saying intelligence is how quickly and to what extent we can learn new things?

Yeah, well... I don't know. You're not really trying to define intelligence, are you, because that's not what I got from your post.

If we go down to evolutionary biology and think about what makes us different from animals, then the answer would be intelligence - the complexity of our ability to think and comprehend things, to use and invent things, and to communicate with each other in complex ways such as language but also gestures and body language. That's what intelligence - in this respect - is.

I guess that's why the modern theory talks about different types of intelligence. Not everyone is good at maths, not everyone is good at learning languages easy. Some are good at social situations, communication, using language... Some are good at creation, inventing new things, art, new tools, innovation.

We're complex beings so it makes sense that we have different sorts of talents.

We're all born different. I wouldn't bring the question of equality into this because you use it in the sense that everyone's the same as a baby, which is not the case. We're not equipped with the same tools but what equality is really about is that we all deserve and ought to have the same rights to achieving things.

But yeah, like I said, we are born different. Each with our own hardware, so to say.. But I don't think you can call that intelligence. What really matters is what happens after birth. There are so many factors involved. If you called it intelligence, then I believe that people can be born intelligent and grow up to become stupid. But why would that be, when the whole idea behind living is to achieve things, better yourself all through your life?

So no, I don't think intelligence is that. I'd talk about potential. I mean, some people have a lot of potential but they lack ambition. Others lack potential but have heaps of ambition so they go far just with hard work.

The whole intelligence question is difficult because then again, can you gain creativity? Social intelligence? Tough to say.

And overall, when it comes down to it, the reason why this discussion is being had time and time again is that we all want to be intelligent. But really - when the concept is still so alien and vague (Does smart equal intelligence? What is wisdom, then? Does education equal intelligence? If not, why do we educate ourselves? How can you practise intelligence?), does it even matter? If you can't define something, why must you strive towards it?

I guess that's why I like Philosophy. It makes me (at least think I'm) ask(ing) the right questions.

Vera
10-25-2005, 01:10 PM
Intelligence is harder to measure - it's to be able to use said knowledge; in discussions, with other people, and so on. I don't really know how to explain it but that's what I've always thought.
That sounds like either logic or rhetoric or probably both. Argumentation? Presentation?

I don't know, I was always better at knowledge anyway.

TheUnholyNightbringer
10-25-2005, 01:12 PM
That sounds like either logic or rhetoric or probably both. Argumentation? Presentation?

I don't know, I was always better at knowledge anyway.

For me, intelligence and logic go hand-in-hand. You can have logic without intelligence but you can't have intelligence without logic. Either way, for me they're very similar. The only difference is logic is use of the situation, and intelligence is use of knowledge within a situation.

Oh, I suck at explaining this.

memento
10-25-2005, 01:13 PM
logic = maths?

XYlophonetreeZ
10-25-2005, 01:14 PM
Paint it Black, I generally agree with you, but I think you left out one thing. Education isn't even that good of a measurement of a person's knowledge unless you're there with them throughout a major part of their life. We've mentioned intelligence, wisdom, and education, but I think what's really interesting, and the most effective way to measure a person's ultimate intellectual ability, is to look at how the three interrelate. But that's impossible to do without including a fourth factor: motivation. It's not necessarily reflective of one's intelligence in itself, but it's very easy to mistakenly look at two people with seemingly equal education, and assume them to be intellectually equal except for the aforementioned factor of inherent intelligence. Some people just work a hell of a lot harder than others, and while I do believe that intelligence is inherent, I think that it can almost always be nullified throughout one's life if the person in question so desires.

I guess I'll attempt to interrelate all that. You're born. You've got a brain up there, and you can do great things with it. How great? Much much greater than you would ever even WANT to do. If you spend your entire life doing nothing but overloading your brain with all the information mankind has discovered and recorded throughout the years, you can be the most knowlegeable person in history. So while I agree that inherent intelligence is sort of a "cap" on intellectual potential, I believe that, except possibly in cases of severe mental retardation, that that cap is far too high to be relevant in anyway except for the difficulty of getting near it, because very few people in history have actually extended their capability to a sizeable percentage of the distance to that cap.

So how do I know how far I'm gonna get? Well, I've got a life, and it's already been established that life experience spawns wisdom, which is definitely the most ambiguous quality of the three. The wisdom that one gains in the early stages of life determines the way we see life. It helps us measure the importance of things like education in the grander scheme of life, and not necessarily in a manner such that a wiser person will always choose to learn more. Some people may squint up at that way-too-high cap created by inherent intelligence and decide "To hell with it. I'll find better ways to get the most out of life." And sometimes, that may well be a wise decision. But the more accepted formula in our society, and often one that proves to work, is that the wisdom you gain early in life leads you to the decision that you're gonna try to get into a good school, you're gonna work your ass off to maximize the knowledge you gain from your education. Those who do not possess as much inherent intelligence will have to work harder, but they can still do it with motivation, provided that they've gained the wisdom to do so.

So in summary, I believe that intelligence can easily be voided throughout the experience of life, at least as a measure of a person's general quality. If you need to make a quick and important decision about something unexpected, it can prove useful. But otherwise, people can generally motivate themselves to get prepared for most general scenarios.

Education is just what we do to enhance our intelligence. Motivation is what can increase the value of education. Greater input, greater output. What will measure our ability to perform in professional and intellectual situations is a product of intelligence and the value of education. This is one way of measuring intellect. Let's call it "edutelligence." I'm sure there's a name for it. Somebody help me out here.

Wisdom exists on a totally separate scale. Since there are many different philosophies, there are many different types of wisdom, so it's difficult to "measure" per se, but it doesn't really matter because you can measure its effect on both the overall happiness it brings you and on the way others see you. Wisdom is sort of the wild card. It can serve to either compliment or compensate for your edutelligence.

That word is going to make this entire post sound dumb just by itself. It sounds like something George W. Bush would say. No, not even him, but an impersonation of him on SNL.

Now that I just wasted tons of time writing that, I guess I should motivate myself to go study organic chem so as to enhance my edutelligence.

Edit: I guess by edutelligence I sort of meant knowledge, but that's a term that easily gets misconstrued. People think "Knowledge = school, books, etc. = omg NERD!," and I've heard it misconstrued so many times that I've misconstrued it myself.

Kerr
10-25-2005, 01:17 PM
I do think you're naturally born with intelligence because, even though I'm not as stupid as I used to be, I am still pretty dense, and it is something I will have to put up with for life. Believe me, I don't like being stupid, and for years I have wished I could be more witty, but it is just the way I am and I have grown to accept it. I generally find that when someone is deliberately trying to start and argument with me or is challenging me, I am useless at arguing. However, when in a good mood, I have potential to blurt out the odd smart or funny comment. I general, I am quite witless though. But it's the way I am. People have their imperfections. My mates realise this and they even think there are worse people than me when it comes to common sense and intelligence.

However, I have been hanging around with people a bit more outside of school, and in some ways, I am a little more clever than I used to be. In some ways, this BBS has helped me mature as I see how some adults think, and it has also taught me to thicken my skin and stand up for myself more. No-one in this forum scares me, but people have made me aware that I need to fight back at times, as well as take some things as a joke (no need to defend yourself all the time). And if I can't think of anything witty to say (and 99% if the time I can't), I am more than happy to walk away. When I first started posting here, some posters used to annoy me slightly, but after going out with my mates more and realising that what I have is good, I care less and less. Apart from spam and any inane conversations that go on in good threads - they GENUINELY annoy the fucking hell out of me.

I do however, have good academic intelligence. Even though I fare better in Maths, Science and Technology, I passed all of my GCSE's as if I set my mind on anything, I can be good at it. I do have a price to pay as my common sense sucks but I am a bit less dense that I was even as little as half a year ago. I sometmes look at the halfwits who made it into sixth form, and count myself lucky. I also look back at even more incompetant arseholes I, rather sadly hung around with at high school (and regret it as I could have had better friends) and write off the fact that they used to annoy me and just tell myself "thank god you haven't ended up like them" (I know someone who STILL puts a homophobic act on, and he really needs to be wiped off this planet).

I hope to get WISER (not more intelligent) later in life as I experience it more.

Mota Boy
10-25-2005, 01:18 PM
The Einstein quote holds my views. Intelligence is like a muscle. You may have great genetic abilty for tissue voluminzation but it won't grow unless you feed it and train it. You need to actualise your potential to use one of those gay new age phrases.
Dush, I don't think you understand the Einstein quote.

memento
10-25-2005, 01:22 PM
I realise it was relating to another field, I think the obsession that physics has with mathamatical formalism which Einstein obvioulsy respected but felt human traits needed to be added to the mix. His other quote was something like "god integrates emperically" or "god doesnt' care for mathamatics".

I basically just googled Einstein intelligence quote to see what came up and posted it and thought it made sense anyway.

Mota Boy
10-25-2005, 01:28 PM
You can easily fake being more intelligent than you truly are, because of the criteria people use to assess your intelligence... More intelligent people tend to type well, but this does not mean that typing well proves you are intelligent. An idiot could do it if they chose to put in a little time and effort.
I dunno about that. From what I understand, as much as intelligence and spelling are related, stupid people are bad spellers and good spellers are intelligent. Now, what this means is that someone with a good grasp of grammar and spelling is usually intelligent... whereas people that misspell words could be either smart of dumb.

Judging intelligence can be tricky, though. It took me four years of high school before I realized this one kid wasn't all that bright, just because he was such a great pseudointellectual - read Virgil, had an extensive vocabulary, etc.

I think that's about as far as I want to get into this discussion at the moment.

memento
10-25-2005, 01:30 PM
Perhaps the best definition of intelligence would involve brain scans or those radioactive things to see how heavy your brain works.

Betty
10-25-2005, 01:43 PM
logic = maths?

No. Not at all.

memento
10-25-2005, 01:46 PM
Explain.

I realise it's not the same hence the (?). But you have an extremely high perpensity to have a logical brain if you can do maths. Just like with the spelling argument.

Like I know one guy he's brilliant at his logic tests/programming on his course but he hates the maths. That's the only guy I know like that.

Vera
10-25-2005, 01:54 PM
Math partly developed from logic but they're not really the same thing. Basic logic anyone - good or crap at math - can understand. The more complex stuff has a lot to do with mathematics but it's still not the same thing.

memento
10-25-2005, 01:55 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Logic/Mathematics

interesting debate.

memento
10-25-2005, 02:04 PM
In my google searches I also found out there is a feminist critique of mathamatics. Can you believe this.

Vera
10-25-2005, 02:08 PM
Yes, I can. While I have no interest in reading it, I do believe that certain things in the way we think has largely been influenced by the fact that the people in power in both politics and science have been men for centuries and centuries.

memento
10-25-2005, 02:12 PM
I'm gonna read it tommorow. I still just think to myself tho "but it's maths!".

I've always had hope the elites don't determine our sciences. the facts do. I was however reading how a certain physics theory gets insane funding and forces grad students to go into it for employment reasons/pressure. So it's obvious they do exert influence but the truth outs in the end.

Betty
10-25-2005, 02:17 PM
Math involves logic, sure.

But so does everything else.

Philosophy is majorly based on presenting a series of logical arguments.

Reading a text and analyzing it involves drawing logical conclusings and making logical observations.

Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I'm not sure what exactly makes people better at math, but I wouldn't call it "logic". I do believe a part of it is desire... sometimes I think people convince themselves they aren't good at it because they think it is boring/they are lazy and it takes more effort to wrap your head around it. Very often I think about a mathematical concept for a while before really grasping it fully. Also, I'd like to think it's easier to BS your way through a lot of other things, whereas you can't really in math, as there is a "right" and "wrong".

Betty
10-25-2005, 02:19 PM
And I restrain to let this out EVERY time, but I hate how british people call "math" "maths".... gaaaahhhh! But I cannot argue that it is wrong. Boo. Just annoying.

memento
10-25-2005, 02:23 PM
Logical conclusions on what you've read are 'best fit' answers because surely there is no right and there is no wrong when you can make many conclusions.

So they can follow a logical path but they're not really logic because you can't say they're true or false. I always thought logic was about true or false. That's where the best fit comes in. You can say a conclusion is best fit to the text you read but you can't say the conclusion is true or false in all cases? I faully understand the term 'that's a logical conclusion' but it's the relation to true and false I'm confused with.

Anyway it's late i'mma gonna be off to sleep.

Betty
10-25-2005, 02:38 PM
The definition of logic is quite broad, for example:

1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

2.a. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
b. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
c. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.

3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.

4. The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.

It really has nothing to do with right and wrong.

Anyway, this should be a really obvious thing, at least I think.

Mota Boy
10-25-2005, 02:51 PM
Anyway, this should be a really obvious thing, at least I think.
Agreed.

However, I don't know if logic is an innate quality associated with intelligence or if reasoning can be taught. I think one of the hallmarks of a good education is the development of reasoning skills - being able to notice flaws in an argument. I'm not sure precisely, but I do think it can be taught to an extent.

In that way, intelligence - the ability to process information - can be enhanced through certain types of education. Not just teaching kids pure knowledge, but teaching them how to learn.

memento
10-26-2005, 12:28 AM
A page i googled: "Logic is the art of showing if something is true, or if it is false.".

I guess it can still be saved because a conclusion can be logically true or logically false but the actual argument can lead to varying conclusions. But it's not really that obvious becuase everything we associte with logic comes down to true or false, right or wrong, 0 or 1. When someone says your argument lacks logic they are also saying (most of the time) you're conclusion is incorrect. So I'd say of course logic has everything to do with true and false.

Paint_It_Black
10-26-2005, 03:12 AM
Eh.. So, you're basically saying intelligence is how quickly and to what extent we can learn new things?

Yes, that's a broad, general definition that I'm suggesting.



I guess that's why the modern theory talks about different types of intelligence. Not everyone is good at maths, not everyone is good at learning languages easy. Some are good at social situations, communication, using language... Some are good at creation, inventing new things, art, new tools, innovation.


That's very true. The issue is of course very complicated. I was trying to find a simplified definition for overall intelligence. A general intelligence. I consider artistic ability to be something else though. I haven't given enough thought to art to really have an opinion on whether it has any relation to intelligence or not.



We're all born different. I wouldn't bring the question of equality into this because you use it in the sense that everyone's the same as a baby, which is not the case. We're not equipped with the same tools but what equality is really about is that we all deserve and ought to have the same rights to achieving things.


I only briefly mentioned equality because I've seen many people use the "we're all created equal" argument to apply to every aspect of our being, which just isn't true. And it does raise an interesting question to me. If some of us are born smarter, stronger or whatever, do we all truly deserve equal rights? As an example, should stupid people be allowed to vote just because they reach a certain age? I'm not saying this is what I believe, I just enjoy discussion.



So no, I don't think intelligence is that. I'd talk about potential. I mean, some people have a lot of potential but they lack ambition. Others lack potential but have heaps of ambition so they go far just with hard work.


That potential you are speaking of is basically what I would call general intelligence, I suppose. As you say, people who lack potential can go far just with ambition, hard work, or luck. I'd cite George Bush as an example. I do not believe he's stupid, but I don't believe he's really intelligent enough to deserve his position either.


And overall, when it comes down to it, the reason why this discussion is being had time and time again is that we all want to be intelligent. But really - when the concept is still so alien and vague (Does smart equal intelligence? What is wisdom, then? Does education equal intelligence? If not, why do we educate ourselves? How can you practise intelligence?), does it even matter? If you can't define something, why must you strive towards it?

For me, I like this discussion because I tend to have a scientist's way of thinking. I want to know everything. I like to look for answers, and I welcome different opinions. Through dissension we may find truth. Of course I want to be intelligent, but that is not the motivating factor for anything I discuss. A desire for knowledge is my motivation. Why must we strive towards something we can't define? Well, for one thing I'm not convinced it cannot be suitably defined. But being a "good" person can be hard to define, yet most of us strive towards that. It's possible that the hardest things to define are the ones most worth striving for.


Wisdom exists on a totally separate scale. Since there are many different philosophies, there are many different types of wisdom, so it's difficult to "measure" per se, but it doesn't really matter because you can measure its effect on both the overall happiness it brings you and on the way others see you. Wisdom is sort of the wild card. It can serve to either compliment or compensate for your edutelligence.


I like that a lot. Wisdom is my favourite of the attributes we have been discussing, because with wisdom generally comes happiness, or at least contentment with life. And that, I feel, is what we should all strive for. There's little point, on a personal level, to being a genius if you're miserable.

The rest of your post seemed to be mostly relating to the value of intelligence, which isn't something I really commented on before. As such your post goes nicely alongside mine, and I generally agree.


I hope to get WISER (not more intelligent) later in life as I experience it more.

From the rest of your post I'd say you have a decent amount of wisdom already, and I can only imagine that growing. And hoping to grow wiser is in itself always a wise thing to hope for. You seem to have a great understanding and acceptance of yourself, which is something I strongly associate with wisdom. Which just proves my point that wisdom doesn't automatically come with age. You're already wiser than some people three times your age, but I won't give examples of that. And if you should care, my estimation of you just went up by a lot.


I dunno about that. From what I understand, as much as intelligence and spelling are related, stupid people are bad spellers and good spellers are intelligent. Now, what this means is that someone with a good grasp of grammar and spelling is usually intelligent... whereas people that misspell words could be either smart of dumb.

Judging intelligence can be tricky, though. It took me four years of high school before I realized this one kid wasn't all that bright, just because he was such a great pseudointellectual - read Virgil, had an extensive vocabulary, etc.

I think that's about as far as I want to get into this discussion at the moment.

Mota, I'm not seeing exactly how you are disagreeing with me. You seem to be adding to my case.


Math partly developed from logic but they're not really the same thing. Basic logic anyone - good or crap at math - can understand. The more complex stuff has a lot to do with mathematics but it's still not the same thing.

I agree with this. I tend to be very logical, people have even attempted to insult me by saying I am too logical. But I struggle with math. On the simpler end I enjoy it, but it becomes too abstract for me to handle easily, which is why I didn't pursue it beyond highschool. I much prefer studying psychology, sociology and the like, over things I consider abstract. That's all I want to say about this. I agree with Betty.


In that way, intelligence - the ability to process information - can be enhanced through certain types of education. Not just teaching kids pure knowledge, but teaching them how to learn.

Very good point.

Thanks to all for taking the time to talk about this.

Kerr
10-26-2005, 04:07 AM
From the rest of your post I'd say you have a decent amount of wisdom already, and I can only imagine that growing. And hoping to grow wiser is in itself always a wise thing to hope for. You seem to have a great understanding and acceptance of yourself, which is something I strongly associate with wisdom. Which just proves my point that wisdom doesn't automatically come with age. You're already wiser than some people three times your age, but I won't give examples of that. And if you should care, my estimation of you just went up by a lot.

Well, like I said, I tend to care les about other people's opinions but when someone says something positive about me it does count. So thanks for that. It is good to give someone positive support when they are going the right way.

God, this has been one of the greatest threads ever. I have been posting less on this forum as I have been finding it a bit stale, but this thread has beaten a lot of other threads, and not only did I find I could contribute to it but open up about myself a bit more too.

HeadAroundU
10-26-2005, 04:25 AM
It's fucking easy!
education + experience = raising of intelligence

The people are born with random level of INTELLIGENCE and random level of TALENT for different things.They are improving it if they are not lazy. :)

Thats all I know! and all I need to know!

oh and I hate the word "wisdom". It's kinda bullshit word.It's for kids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_%28trait%29
(i don't think it's interesting)

Megs
10-26-2005, 05:48 AM
yeah, come on, own up! who has intelligence!?

Endymion
10-26-2005, 08:12 AM
EIf we go down to evolutionary biology and think about what makes us different from animals, then the answer would be intelligence
*cough*opposable thumb*cough*

Vera
10-26-2005, 11:00 AM
Our thumbs allowed our intelligence to develop.

Thumbsucker.

ruroken
10-26-2005, 11:08 AM
You all know me...so...is there anything that would actually be helpful to me in here? Or is it just the discussion of what intelligence is and how to measure it? Becuase, there's a lot to read, and I don't generally like big conversations unless they are done in person. For example, in LA we had a political discussion about our troops. Here, I would not even voice my opinion. It's just not that interesting. In person, I will say everything I think and listen to you. It's easier, and much more fun that way.

Vera
10-26-2005, 12:05 PM
You all know me...so...is there anything that would actually be helpful to me in here? Or is it just the discussion of what intelligence is and how to measure it? Becuase, there's a lot to read, and I don't generally like big conversations unless they are done in person. For example, in LA we had a political discussion about our troops. Here, I would not even voice my opinion. It's just not that interesting. In person, I will say everything I think and listen to you. It's easier, and much more fun that way.
And to think that instead of all that, you could've just written some of your thoughts on the subject.

JoY
10-26-2005, 02:41 PM
Richard; that's -exactly- how I see it. YOU STOLE MY ESSAY ON THE SUBJECT.

not that I hadn't already writting about a tripple essay on it in the other topic. *sighs*

Betty
10-26-2005, 07:06 PM
A page i googled: "Logic is the art of showing if something is true, or if it is false.".

I guess it can still be saved because a conclusion can be logically true or logically false but the actual argument can lead to varying conclusions. But it's not really that obvious becuase everything we associte with logic comes down to true or false, right or wrong, 0 or 1. When someone says your argument lacks logic they are also saying (most of the time) you're conclusion is incorrect. So I'd say of course logic has everything to do with true and false.

Again, it doesn't have to be about right or wrong.

You read a story and come to the conclusion that because the theme of light seems to reappear at particular times, it symbolizes hope. Is this logical? Sure. Is this right? Who the fuck knows?

I could list a bazillion examples for you, and I shouldn't even be typing this at all, because like I said, it's totally obvious, I don't know why you're arguing.

And I agree that people can definitely learn how to learn, learn how to reason, etc, etc. A major part of getting an education is for this exact purpose, and not necessarily to remember facts and concepts. Whether this increases their "intelligence"... I don't know... but that's really just semantics. It's clearly something above and beyond simply gaining knowledge. If you are more innately intelligence, you will probably have a greater ability to improve these aspects as well. So maybe intelligence can increase but only proportionately to the intelligence you start with. So maybe somebody less intelligent can learn to be intelligent, only slower? I don't know if I agree with this, but I think it's at least interesting. Also, you can train your memory, and your memory has to at least be partially associated with intelligence. But again, it's all about how you define "intelligence". I find a really limiting aspect to having discussions like these sometimes is having to perfectly define every term you use so that everything is consistent.

Mota Boy
10-26-2005, 08:14 PM
Mota, I'm not seeing exactly how you are disagreeing with me. You seem to be adding to my case.
I think that people that type well and spell correctly are almost always intelligent. Or, more specifically, they've acheived a certain level of intellect.

I suppose I think that, while there's some overlap, typing skills can be a fairly good indication. Some people ignore capitalization (Endy), some have poor spelling (Sic), some make the occasional grammatical error (I'm not anal enough to remember), but they're usually on about basic sentence and paragraph structure. People that eschew all rules of grammar to the extent that it impedes communication almost without fail never had anything worthwhile to say in the first place.

sKratch
10-26-2005, 10:49 PM
And I restrain to let this out EVERY time, but I hate how british people call "math" "maths".... gaaaahhhh! But I cannot argue that it is wrong. Boo. Just annoying.
Please marry me.

HornyPope
10-26-2005, 11:17 PM
Too long, didn't read.

Endymion
10-26-2005, 11:18 PM
Some people ignore capitalization (Endy)
with the way i type, it would slow me down to capitalize when needed. i do, however, capitalize when it would actually change the meaning of the sentence. classic example: "i help my uncle jack off a horse" vs "i help my uncle Jack off a horse". when the capitalization does not add any information (in the signal theory since of the word) to the sentence i don't bother.

HornyPope
10-26-2005, 11:23 PM
I helped my uncle Jack jack off a horse.

Vera
10-27-2005, 01:00 AM
Best.Contribution.Ever.

memento
10-27-2005, 01:59 AM
Stud farms turnme on.