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darko
01-14-2006, 02:39 PM
Are the British patriotic? Gordon Brown Doesnt seem to think so. He thinks we should be more like America 'cause they have July 4th' and France, sorry can't remember there 'special day' is. ...what do you think?

darko
01-14-2006, 02:41 PM
Thank you Duskygrin

wheelchairman
01-14-2006, 02:46 PM
The events of the 4th of July, (and July 14th) are both rather interesting turn of events. And good reasons to celebrate.

However patriotism is a little overrated. Nothing wrong with celebration though.

darko
01-14-2006, 02:47 PM
However patriotism is a little overrated. Nothing wrong with celebration though.

well if it gets us a day off work then cool....but than again

The Talking Pie
01-14-2006, 02:50 PM
We celebrate murdering would-be revolutionaries every November. Kind of a different spin on the whole 'celebrating things' when compared to America and France. But this country is painfully patriotic.

JoY
01-14-2006, 02:51 PM
I agree with Per. celebration = teh good shit. patriotism gets on my tits.

*Edit: Per should know. after all, he IS American.

wheelchairman
01-14-2006, 03:03 PM
yeah Dave makes a good point.

The whole orange thing should stop. And then there was that whole bloody mess you guys made in connection with the recreation of that naval battle a few months ago. I mean jesus.

darko
01-14-2006, 03:03 PM
But this country is painfully patriotic.

maybe someone should tell Gordon Brown that

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-14-2006, 06:32 PM
The word "patriotic" in Britain these days seems to be synonymous with "we want all them damn imigrants out".

And in my opinion, I'm ashamed to say, that's what a lot of Brits feel.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 06:14 AM
Is that really so bad, Dave? A large immigrant population can cause many irritations for the natives, without readily apparent benefits to counteract it. I personally can't blame them if they'd prefer the immigrants to be somewhere else, as long as they aren't being openly hostile to the immigrants. Basically, we all have to try to get along, but we don't have to like each other.

Last time I was in London I was hassled by so many immigrant women, begging for money, following me and making demands. One tried to push into the phone booth my girlfriend was currently using to beg for money from her, and I had to physically block the door. Would I prefer that these people went somewhere else? Yes, of course I would. I feel sorry for them, but I shouldn't have to put up with that kind of behaviour. If the government is going to let them in, the government needs to be taking care of them and not allowing them to hassle people.

JoY
01-15-2006, 06:18 AM
*stands up & yells* LONG LIVE VVD!

..I was recently diagnosed with gilles de la tourettes.

darko
01-15-2006, 06:19 AM
The word "patriotic" in Britain these days seems to be synonymous with "we want all them damn imigrants out".

And in my opinion, I'm ashamed to say, that's what a lot of Brits feel.


I dont think its 'get them all out' as be stricter letting them in

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 06:36 AM
Darko, depends who you talk to.

PIB, you have to ask yourself, why are these immigrant women having to resort to begging so forcefully? It makes sense that they're probably illegal immigrants, seeing as if they were legal immigrants they'd be eligible for benefits and housing and so forth, and more importantly applying for a job.

I think it's true that we do have a problem with illegal immigration in this country. However that problem doesn't lie with the immigration process, but with border control. We're on an island, so naturally it's easy to get over in a boat or hiding on a ferry. But I don't agree with "we want all the immigrants out", and I never will. I'm proud to live in such a diverse country, and I'm not going to let a few lazy freeloaders stain the hard-working majority.

darko
01-15-2006, 06:51 AM
Darko, depends who you talk to.

yeah i s'pose, guess it not as bad up here in Scotland than it is down South.....then again the only in-comers we have on the Island are English

The Talking Pie
01-15-2006, 06:52 AM
Is that really so bad, Dave? A large immigrant population can cause many irritations for the natives, without readily apparent benefits to counteract it. I personally can't blame them if they'd prefer the immigrants to be somewhere else, as long as they aren't being openly hostile to the immigrants. Basically, we all have to try to get along, but we don't have to like each other.

Last time I was in London I was hassled by so many immigrant women, begging for money, following me and making demands. One tried to push into the phone booth my girlfriend was currently using to beg for money from her, and I had to physically block the door. Would I prefer that these people went somewhere else? Yes, of course I would. I feel sorry for them, but I shouldn't have to put up with that kind of behaviour. If the government is going to let them in, the government needs to be taking care of them and not allowing them to hassle people.
I've never come across immigrants acting like that. I have, however, come across a lot (and I mean somewhere in the region of perhaps thirty percent of people) of folk who are asses like that who are born and raised in Merry Olde England. We're a nation of biggots, and if there aren't any dirty immigrants around to hassle, well, we'll just pick on each other.

Know what I find funny about the whole 'immigration' deal? Illegal immigrants. Bad, right? Well, let's think about it... legal immigrants = people who want to work/need help/etc... likely to be no more a waste of flesh than your average Brit. Illegal immigrants = illegal; hence, doesn't official exist in this country. What's that; they're taking our jobs? No they're not, they have no National Insurance number. And whatnow? They're getting government handouts? Wrong again Sherlock, they don't officially exist, remember?

Reminds me of a conversation I had with someone in school who was bad-mouthing them:

Guy: The government gives them flats, and expensive TVs and shit, and they just sell them.
Me: For what? Money so they can buy flashy TVs?

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 07:06 AM
What annoys me about this whole "immigrants/jobs" issue is people say "they come and take all our jobs". Yeah, jobs which most Brits consider to be beneath them. If all immigrants are got rid of, it won't suddenly create magical jobs for the rest of us. It'll leave a lot of dishes unwashed and a lot of fruit unpicked.

And what about doctors? A lot of doctors are foreign. Someone who was previously unemployed with no qualifications won't be able to just jump in and fill the shoes of a doctor, foreign or not. It'll create a big black hole that can't be filled by the white unemployed. Same with teachers, nurses, lawyers, etc etc etc.

And since when are all unemployed people on the dole foreign? You just have to wait outside any Jobcentre for 5 minutes to know just as many, if not MORE, unemployed people are white.

darko
01-15-2006, 07:09 AM
Yeah but those immigrant's mean cheap labour, they are often picked over British BECAUSE employers can pay them less....its hasnt really got anything to do with the job beneath us....its got more to do with how much less the employer can get away with paying them

Kerr
01-15-2006, 07:10 AM
I don't believe in getting rid of all the immigrants, since it is just stupid, especially for reasons stated by TUNB. However, stricter security is needed on Britain's borders to restrict the number of immigrants coming in - that is where the main problem is, NOT that there're "too many of them" in the UK.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 07:15 AM
Yeah but those immigrant's mean cheap labour, they are often picked over British BECAUSE employers can pay them less....its hasnt really got anything to do with the job beneath us....its got more to do with how much less the employer can get away with paying them

Exactly. If immigrants are got rid of, British people will have to live with these wages. That's what I'm saying.

Chris
01-15-2006, 07:18 AM
doesn't St. Georges day count as our 'patriotic day'? not that anyone makes much of a fuss about it anyway

darko
01-15-2006, 07:19 AM
Exactly. If immigrants are got rid of, British people will have to live with these wages. That's what I'm saying.

Not necessary....National Min. Wage. Most Immigrants dont even get that

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 07:21 AM
Not necessary....National Min. Wage. Most Immigrants dont even get that

But the British people won't even DO said jobs. Washing dishes? Most people think that's beelow them. They'd rather be on benefits. That's where immigrants come in - they do the jobs British people feel too superior to do.

The Talking Pie
01-15-2006, 07:30 AM
If an immigrant is willing to work, then they shouldn't be the subject of these debates at all. If they're willing to work longer hours in harder jobs for less money than you, then they deserve your job, your home and your woman (but you get to keep the fascist little nationalistic kids you've spawned).

And I agree with Dave about the dole thingy. I'm currently on the dole (cross your fingers that an interview next week goes well, so I can work hard for my pitiful income instead!), and I can honestly say that I've never seen a single non-white person in the JobCentre. Ever. And Coventry is seemingly considered one of the immigration hotspots of the country.

JoY
01-15-2006, 07:40 AM
look here; we, the Dutch, were once smart enough to say; "hey, looks like we've got dishes to clean, clothes to wash, garbage to take away & take-out food to be made. say, let's invite them Turks for our dirty work!"

by now the Netherlands is a resort for anyone & everyone who hopes to find wealth & health. the situation here is hopeless. a tinywiny bit of land & it already has about 17 million citizens (or inhabitants, or whatever).

when I say hunters are needed to maintain a natural balance in this country, I mean they're needed to keep our unnatural balance, that enables us to take over every bit of space that is left. rabbits & deers are wandering on highways nowadays.

to conclude; we've gathered so many people in this country.. by inviting them at first, we've opened the gates to entire world. now we're trying to be more strict about who gets in & gets to stay here, immigrants suddenly call our government right wing & corrupt.

you can shun everyone, or invite everyone, but in the end you'll have to choose a way that comes down to being somewhere in the middle of things. & that line doesn't get much thinner. it's completely difficult to decide who goes back & who gets to build a life here.

I know two immigrants, who both come from a terribly, horrific situation in their home-country. reading their files, you just cringe & shudder. one of them has just heard the verdict that she & her husband & kids can stay. the other one was denied, but simply can't go back. now her husband is stuck in a Dutch jail for being illegal, opposed to being in a Romanian jail for being against the current government.

a friend of mine (my boyfriend's brother) works at a 'law-shop'. you can get free advice there from law students & they'll do their best to help their clients on a voluntary basis. once a young girl came in, just plain Dutch. she told Alexander, that her boyfriend had been arrested the day before for being an illegal immigrant. he'd been working here to earn some money to send to his family outside the Netherlands. she had no idea where he was (they never inform anyone & illegal immigrants basically can only use the phone once a day) & she obviously was worried. Alexander made a few calls & then got in touch with the right folks. when he asked where the boyfriend of the girl was, they muttered; "new policy; illegal immigrants are removed as quickly as possible". "so.. where is he now then?", Alexander asked. "on his plane home."

imagine that's your job. just imagine. holy shit..

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 07:45 AM
What annoys me about this whole "immigrants/jobs" issue is people say "they come and take all our jobs". Yeah, jobs which most Brits consider to be beneath them. If all immigrants are got rid of, it won't suddenly create magical jobs for the rest of us. It'll leave a lot of dishes unwashed and a lot of fruit unpicked.


But most people don't look at it that way. It's what I meant about the benefits being hard to see. What you say is of course true, but I think it raises another issue. People should HAVE to do work that they consider "beneath them". I've washed dishes, carried heavy objects, assembled wooden boxes and done many other unpleasant tasks. Some of these jobs are "beneath" me, in a sense. My GCSEs alone, most of which were A's, and my limited college experience should put me at least above that kind of stuff. But I took that work because it was available. Sitting around on the dole and waiting for better jobs shouldn't, in my opinion, be an option. I'm fortunate in that I've never known many people to purposefully be on the dole. Most people I know are like me and will take work that is "beneath" them if it is all that seems to be available. I've also never known too many people that use the "they take our jobs" argument. In my part of the country there seemed to be plenty of jobs, especially if you aren't too picky. Most of the complaints I hear come from cultural reasons, and although it's sad that people can't be more tolerant I still see where they are coming from.

I hadn't considered that the immigrants in the negative situation I experienced may have been illegal. It makes sense, but distresses me because they were in a tourist part of London. In other words, they weren't exactly being low profile, and the police should be responding to that kind of thing. Perhaps it is better now though, this was 5 years ago. But at that time everyone I knew who went to London was having similar experiences.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 07:50 AM
I agree that if there's a job, someone should fill it. The welfare state should only exist in so much as there's literally NO jobs left for people to fill.

But it's still true that people who ask for the removal of immigrants are short-sighted. Ideally if a dishwashing job is avaliable, someone should be made to fill it. But because of the country we live in, people want the ideal job, or even worse, just want to stay as a freeloader.

JoY
01-15-2006, 07:55 AM
I tried with examples to show aspects of this issue from different views. I just wanted to add one;

the formerly illegal immagrant I know (see first example) & her family lived in a center for immigrants without a Dutch nationality, that are mostly basically waiting for the end of their trial to be admitted, or sent away. they had neighbours in the center from their original neighbour-country ..which were in war at the time. :/

at some point the husband of the woman I know was taking a walk outside. his neighbour waved at him & asked him to walk along. they walked & walked, untill they were at a quiet spot somewhere in a forest. then the neighbour pulled out a knife & stabbed the husband 9 (that's nine) times.

seriously.. some people come here to work. some people come here for safety. some people come here for health. BUT DON'T COME HERE TO START SHIT. seriously, go the fuck home.

this was my rant, kthnx, you may continue.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 07:56 AM
Ideally if a dishwashing job is avaliable, someone should be made to fill it. But because of the country we live in, people want the ideal job, or even worse, just want to stay as a freeloader.

Would it really be so difficult to implement a system that forces people who are able to work to do so? I really don't see why.

Wanting immigrants that are already in to be removed is highly unrealistic. What needs to be worked on is integrating these people into our culture, and attempting to crack down further on illegal immigration.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 07:56 AM
Joy, unfortunately that's a tiny, tiny minority that taints the image of the vast majority.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 07:59 AM
Would it really be so difficult to implement a system that forces people who are able to work to do so? I really don't see why.

If I had my way I'd certainly have that. Unfortunately people think that being forced to do anything these days counts as abuse.


Wanting immigrants that are already in to be removed is highly unrealistic. What needs to be worked on is integrating these people into our culture, and attempting to crack down further on illegal immigration.

I agree with integration, but I think we disagree on the extent. Integrate, sure - there's far too many "ghetto"-style communities now. But trying to make these people British would be futile, and in my opinion, wrong.

JoY
01-15-2006, 08:06 AM
Wanting immigrants that are already in to be removed is highly unrealistic. What needs to be worked on is integrating these people into our culture, and attempting to crack down further on illegal immigration.
I agree. but one gigantic problem is culture & religion. the massive gap, or more so ravine that creates between people... some things that are considered not just immoral, but illegal here, are totally tolerated by some other cultures that live in our country.

with other words; what the fuck, dad's kill their daughters, because they ripped their hymen three weeks early & mothers shun their children, because they had pork at Ted's birthday party.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:09 AM
But trying to make these people British would be futile, and in my opinion, wrong.

But what about their children? Born in the UK, they ARE British. And they are often highly conflicted about being British whilst trying to conform to their ancestry and please their parents. I don't expect people to give up their culture and all that goes with it. I'm an immigrant myself afterall. I moved to a country that was very easy to fit into, but I also made a big effort to fit in. I suggest a give and take approach. The immigrants should adopt aspects of our culture but feel free to keep as much of their own as they like, yet not force any onto others. Even their own children. At the same time we should be respectful of them and adopt anything from their culture we might happen to like. Such as food. Food is good.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:12 AM
The children of immigrants are not immigrants. They're British citizens. That's where integration comes in - try to integrate the parents into the culture, and as the generations go the children will find it progressively easier to do the same.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:12 AM
with other words; what the fuck, dad's kill their daughters, because they ripped their hymen three weeks early & mothers shun their children, because they had pork at Ted's birthday party.

Exactly something I was thinking about. They are welcome to their beliefs, but if they break our laws I want them severely punished. I want them to have the same rights as the rest of us, but they do need to be aware that they have to fit in to a certain degree.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:13 AM
Exactly something I was thinking about. They are welcome to their beliefs, but if they break our laws I want them severely punished. I want them to have the same rights as the rest of us, but they do need to be aware that they have to fit in to a certain degree.

This is what I mean about partial integration. Traditions are fine - for example, not eating pig and so forth - what's the point in forcing someone to do that? But at the same time the same laws need to be applied.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:14 AM
The children of immigrants are not immigrants. They're British citizens. That's where integration comes in - try to integrate the parents into the culture, and as the generations go the children will find it progressively easier to do the same.

Pretty much what I think. I just hate it when the parents make life difficult for their children. I'd imagine the problem mostly breeds itself out within a few generations. Except more come in and continue the cycle.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:15 AM
That's why integration should begin from the first generation - as time goes on, as you say, the problem breeds itself out.

Andy
01-15-2006, 08:16 AM
Exactly something I was thinking about. They are welcome to their beliefs, but if they break our laws I want them severely punished. I want them to have the same rights as the rest of us, but they do need to be aware that they have to fit in to a certain degree.

And the irony is, we have to abide by their cultural rules when we are in one of their countries. Someone I used to work with had to have a public whipping back in the 80s when she was seen dining with a man who wasn't her husband. Can't remember where that was but it's a true story.

It's just so British the fact that we allow people from every culture to freely come into our country to preach what they want, and to continue their belief structure; but when the tables are turned we must abide by their morals and laws - or else.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:17 AM
This is what I mean about partial integration. Traditions are fine - for example, not eating pig and so forth - what's the point in forcing someone to do that? But at the same time the same laws need to be applied.

Very true. I can just about tolerate vegeatrians of any nationality, so I can handle not eating pork. All I ask is that they accept that most of us will eat it, and their children might also. And not make a big deal out of that. In Britain they'd be better off avoiding the beef.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:19 AM
It's just so British the fact that we allow people from every culture to freely come into our country to preach what they want, and to continue their belief structure; but when the tables are turned we must abide by their morals and laws - or else.

That's 'cause we're just so damned enlightened.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:19 AM
In Britain they'd be better off avoiding the beef.

*Sniggers*


It's just so British the fact that we allow people from every culture to freely come into our country to preach what they want, and to continue their belief structure; but when the tables are turned we must abide by their morals and laws - or else.

Religious tolerance is a pinnacle of British society. The fact that many religions can exist in one country is a wonderful thing. The problem is integration isn't thorough enough.

Andy
01-15-2006, 08:20 AM
Religious tolerance is a pinnacle of British society. The fact that many religions can exist in one country is a wonderful thing. The problem is integration isn't thorough enough.

Oh yeah, I'm not exactly complaining about it. I just find this a rather funny example of double standards.

JoY
01-15-2006, 08:21 AM
Joy, unfortunately that's a tiny, tiny minority that taints the image of the vast majority.
doh, it's only just an example. or rather, four examples. which of the examples were you talking about anyway?

whichever story you meant (because they weren't individually meant as points, but together they had to form one point), people who WILL get shot in their own country are being sent back. also people that won't get shot & who just wanted to make a dime. people that refuse to contribute in any way are admitted in our country. also people that do contribute.

my point is, with all rules & laws made.. there still will never be a way to know, really KNOW, who to send back & who to give your nationality to. this problem won't ever be solved. Zjanna, our housekeeper, -will- eventually be sent back. & when she will, she -will- be shot in her own country. she'll get a passport with a different name, religion & nationality to postpone that moment, but it's perfectly certain that won't help a thing in the long run. & imagine, we've spent so much, so incredibly much, on thinking what would be the best policy for imigrants. we've spent at least what? for-ty-fucking years figuring out what to do with immigrants.

The Talking Pie
01-15-2006, 08:22 AM
It's just so British the fact that we allow people from every culture to freely come into our country to preach what they want, and to continue their belief structure; but when the tables are turned we must abide by their morals and laws - or else.
We don't let people abide by their own laws and morals in our country.

What's so British is that we welcome people into our country then discriminate against them.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:23 AM
I was talking about the dude who stabbed the neighbour.

And I agree with you, immigration is such a complex issue that it'll never really be solved. All we can do is whatever we can to minimise the errors.

The Talking Pie
01-15-2006, 08:24 AM
my point is, with all rules & laws made.. there still will never be a way to know, really KNOW, who to send back & who to give your nationality to. this problem won't ever be solved. Zjanna, our housekeeper, -will- eventually be sent back. & when she will, she -will- be shot in her own country. she'll get a passport with a different name, religion & nationality to postpone that moment, but it's perfectly certain that won't help a thing in the long run. & imagine, we've spent so much, so incredibly much, on thinking what would be the best policy for imigrants. we've spent at least what? for-ty-fucking years figuring out what to do with immigrants.
That's exactly why world domination under a benevolent dictator would be such a good thing. And I'm being completely serious.

Andy
01-15-2006, 08:25 AM
...and it's all down to fahkin' religion

(as they would say in Camden)

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:25 AM
Worldwide control placed in the hands of one person has about a thousand million things wrong with it.

The Talking Pie
01-15-2006, 08:27 AM
Not if you get the 'benevolent dictator' bit about it right. Note how I always include that little phrase when I talk about taking over the world.

Anyway, point being, if there's one government (hence, one standard of treatment, health, safety, wage, etc.) and only one nationality, well, no one -- immigrant and national alike -- will care where they reside.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:27 AM
*Sniggers*
Religious tolerance is a pinnacle of British society. The fact that many religions can exist in one country is a wonderful thing. The problem is integration isn't thorough enough.

The biggest problem for me is when we let in people who aren't tolerant of us. Take Muslims in Britain as an example. They are free to practice their religion without prejudice, and yes I'm sure the majority are fine people. But it still pisses me off so much when some become violent extremists. We welcome them in, we give them freedoms they'd never give us, and then they repay us with bombs. And I'd like to see people within their own community doing more to stop it, because it gives them all a bad name, and yes, makes some of us distrustful of all towel-heads. That just made me think of something else. I hate that they can be exempt from crash helmet laws because of the turban. The law is the LAW, and the laws of man should over-rule the laws of your chosen deity. That's just giving them too much freedom. If they don't like it, no one says they have to ride motorcycles.


That's exactly why world domination under a benevolent dictator would be such a good thing. And I'm being completely serious.

I'm in full agreement with that. I've long believed that dictatorship is the perfect government, as long as you have the perfect dictator. What we need is Vetinari.

The Talking Pie
01-15-2006, 08:31 AM
You know, there are probably far more terrorist acts (if you consider what actually constitutes an act of terrorism... that is, terrorising), and yes, even major incidents (murder, rape and the like) by nationals against nationals than by immigrants against nationals.

Here's a novel idea: how about we leave the decent folk alone and start kicking out of our country anyone who doesn't deserve to be here, regardless of where they came from. Kick out the worthless Brits and steal the useful forgeigners.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:34 AM
Anyway, point being, if there's one government (hence, one standard of treatment, health, safety, wage, etc.) and only one nationality, well, no one -- immigrant and national alike -- will care where they reside.

Plus wealth could be distributed almost evenly around the world. "Third world countries" would not be a term we'd hear anymore. AIDS wouldn't have to be an epidemic in Africa. War would cease to exist, though of course there would still be "conflicts". I'm of the opinion that one day the world will need to be united behind a single leader or government.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:35 AM
As I've said plenty of timees, the problem with that is you need to have a LOT of faith in the right dictator. And anyway, one person's view of an ideal dictator is different from another person's.

And PIB, often that comes from fear and/or anger for the values of the West. That's where integration comes in. If extremism continues, then the said immigrant should be sent away - not just for the good of the country but for the good of the majority of immigrants who want to and do integrate.

And maybe it's a splitting hairs point but the crash helmet thing was to do with Sheiks, not Muslims. And I disagree that they shouldn't be exempt from the law. The turban is a base value of the Sheik religion - if we're to have any kind of religious toolerance, at least the base values need to be accepted. If it affected our safety as native Britons, I'd agree. But it only affects their safety, so it's their choice.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:35 AM
Kick out the worthless Brits and steal the useful forgeigners.

I would love to, but I don't think Australia is taking them anymore.

JoY
01-15-2006, 08:35 AM
This is what I mean about partial integration. Traditions are fine - for example, not eating pig and so forth - what's the point in forcing someone to do that? But at the same time the same laws need to be applied.
you & Richard keep pointing out laws. of COURSE we should maintain our own laws with an iron fist. holy fuck, what else are they for? they're sugarcoated enough as it is, considering as many people's wishes & needs as possible. (..which is a good thing, of course)

but what about the father, that denies his daughter's existence, because she kissed a white boy. what about a wife, who's forced to wear a burqa, is fully oppressed & has absolutely no rights at all within her family?

I KNOW that's *their* culture & something we should not interfere with, but this is not exactly comparable with not eating pork. this is ignoring human rights as we view them. human rights & autonomy are two of the most important things in our Dutch culture. it's everything for instance the Muslim-culture is not. they're two exact oposites. how do you even manage such oposites in one country??

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:38 AM
My response to that is, again, that real (REAL) integration needs to begin now. I'd feel very iffy about punishing someone for that, as painful a situation as it may be. It'd only lead to further distance between the cultures.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:39 AM
If it affected our safety as native Britons, I'd agree. But it only affects their safety, so it's their choice.

I fully agree actually. I think helmet and seat belt laws should be altered so that they only apply to children. It's my belief that adults should be able to risk their lives if they so choose. But my point is that everyone should be able to choose. To allow one group to ignore the law cannot be right.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:41 AM
It's not about ignoring, it's about tolerance. The turban is central to Sheik culture. If we ignore the right of a Shiek to his turban then we might aswell throw all future integration down the toilet.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:43 AM
you & Richard keep pointing out laws. of COURSE we should maintain our own laws with an iron fist. holy fuck, what else are they for? they're sugarcoated enough as it is, considering as many people's wishes & needs as possible. (..which is a good thing, of course)

but what about the father, that denies his daughter's existence, because she kissed a white boy. what about a wife, who's forced to wear a burqa, is fully oppressed & has absolutely no right at all within her family? I KNOW that's *their* culture & something we should not interfere with, but this is not exactly comparable with not eating pork. this is ignoring human rights as we view them. human rights & autonomy are two of the most important things in our Dutch culture. it's everything for instance the Muslim-culture is not. they're two exact oposites. how do you even manage such oposites in one country??

Bella, in those situations aren't they all going along with it? We can't do anything unless a victim asks for help and chooses to end that lifestyle.

How do you manage such opposites? Integration and give and take. Everyone has to be willing to make a few changes. When some don't we just have to wait for them to die and hope the next generation does better.

darko
01-15-2006, 08:44 AM
I fully agree actually. I think helmet and seat belt laws should be altered so that they only apply to children. It's my belief that adults should be able to risk their lives if they so choose. But my point is that everyone should be able to choose. To allow one group to ignore the law cannot be right.

yeah and when someone dies in a car accident for not wearing their seat belt then, who are the family going to blame? not the loved one that died or the driver if there was one....but the law...it accident could have been just that and accident or on purpose. But the family arent necessary going to see it that way. There is no point altering Laws that have been put there for people's on safelty. Anyway its already the indiviuals choice whethere they wear that seat belt or crash helmet.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:45 AM
Darko, no it isn't. Helmets and seatbelts are law.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:45 AM
It's not about ignoring, it's about tolerance. The turban is central to Sheik culture. If we ignore the right of a Shiek to his turban then we might aswell throw all future integration down the toilet.

But no one is saying they can't have it. As I already said, no one is forcing them to ride motorcycles. I feel strongly that they shouldn't be exempt from any laws that the rest of us have to abide by. If we want them to be accepted and integrated, we can't go around giving them special treatment.

darko
01-15-2006, 08:46 AM
Darko, no it isn't. Helmets and seatbelts are law.

Yeah I know its Law, but the indiviual Still CHOOSES whether or not to follow that law

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:49 AM
But no one is saying they can't have it. As I already said, no one is forcing them to ride motorcycles. I feel strongly that they shouldn't be exempt from any laws that the rest of us have to abide by. If we want them to be accepted and integrated, we can't go around giving them special treatment.

If we're to do partial integration we need to make concessions. We have to follow the helmet law because we don't wear turbans. I'm not talking about bowing down to everything, but like you said, there has to be concessions on both sides.

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:50 AM
Yeah I know its Law, but the indiviual Still CHOOSES whether or not to follow that law

In the same way that an individual chooses whether or not to follow the law not to murder someone?

JoY
01-15-2006, 08:50 AM
Not if you get the 'benevolent dictator' bit about it right. Note how I always include that little phrase when I talk about taking over the world.

Anyway, point being, if there's one government (hence, one standard of treatment, health, safety, wage, etc.) and only one nationality, well, no one -- immigrant and national alike -- will care where they reside.
aw, that reminds me of the ethics of Kant & his Categorical Imperative to follow the Maxime. good times.

darko
01-15-2006, 08:52 AM
Yes....If everyone followed the Laws set down by the government....then this country would be almost prefect!

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:53 AM
Darko, I do not wish to have big brother protecting me from myself. Protect me from others, yes, but not myself. I want to be able to drink, smoke, and drive around without seat belts if I choose. Not all at once obviously, because then I'd be endangering others. Protecting us from ourselves encroaches on basic freedoms. What else would you propose? Should swimming be illegal without arm bands because you might drown? Should mountain climbing or jumping out of perfectly good airplanes be outlawed altogether? Perhaps all private vehicles should be confiscated because of the inherent danger in operating them, and of course the pollution. Fish and chips shops should be purged from the country, because they're stiffening up the old arteries. We should all be forced to eat salads instead. All vaccinations should become compulsory, and unprotected sex a crime unless both people can provide up to date health reports. Would you like to live like that?

Andy
01-15-2006, 08:55 AM
Darko, I do not wish to have big brother protecting me from myself. Protect me from others, yes, but not myself. I want to be able to drink, smoke, and drive around without seat belts if I choose. Not all at once obviously, because then I'd be endangering others. Protecting us from ourselves encroaches on basic freedoms. What else would you propose? Should swimming be illegal without arm bands because you might drown? Should mountain climbing or jumping out of perfectly good airplanes be outlawed altogether? Perhaps all private vehicles should be confiscated because of the inherent danger in operating them, and of course the pollution. Fish and chips shops should be purged from the country, because they're stiffening up the old arteries. We should all be forced to eat salads instead. All vaccinations should become compulsory, and unprotected sex a crime unless both people can provide up to date health reports. Would you like to live like that?

That I agree unquestioningly with. The sad thing is though, the way the country is slowly going...Everything you just said is just a matter of time

TheUnholyNightbringer
01-15-2006, 08:56 AM
Not just this country.. the world.

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 08:57 AM
I'm going to end up living in the sewers with Denis Leary.

Demolition Man reference, if anyone wondered.

JoY
01-15-2006, 08:58 AM
Bella, in those situations aren't they all going along with it? We can't do anything unless a victim asks for help and chooses to end that lifestyle.

How do you manage such opposites? Integration and give and take. Everyone has to be willing to make a few changes. When some don't we just have to wait for them to die and hope the next generation does better.
that sounds so easy & so ideal. then why, if you want to bring it into practice, is it so goddam hard? if I'd have a Muslim female friend, who'd have no rights at all within her own family, I'd call child department without hesistating. I realise they believe what they do is good, but bringing their 'goodness' into practice in a country like the Netherlands (which is basically a hippy-country, promoting & promising freedom, human rights & government lovin') causes obvious disagreement. but you can't ask them to give up their culture either.

then another thing; the other day I met a lady from England at the busstop. she'd moved to Amsterdam about eight years ago & STILL had no clue how to speak Dutch, because everyone here speaks English anyway. integration anyone?? but no one cares if SHE speaks English, as long as those motherfucking Muslim people do. & THEY are the ones that are so eager to raise their children speaking their mothertongue.

darko
01-15-2006, 09:01 AM
Darko, I do not wish to have big brother protecting me from myself. Protect me from others, yes, but not myself. I want to be able to drink, smoke, and drive around without seat belts if I choose. Not all at once obviously, because then I'd be endangering others. Protecting us from ourselves encroaches on basic freedoms. What else would you propose? Should swimming be illegal without arm bands because you might drown? Should mountain climbing or jumping out of perfectly good airplanes be outlawed altogether? Perhaps all private vehicles should be confiscated because of the inherent danger in operating them, and of course the pollution. Fish and chips shops should be purged from the country, because they're stiffening up the old arteries. We should all be forced to eat salads instead. All vaccinations should become compulsory, and unprotected sex a crime unless both people can provide up to date health reports. Would you like to live like that?

No i won't. but i do not think the law should be altered because then every fucker would be using that as an excuse when they have been driving dangerously and have killed an innocent passenger and therefore get off with it scot-free. these laws are made BECAUSE of the death toll on our roads due to people not wearing seat belts or crash helmets....since that law was made and put in place ALOT of lifes have been saved due to the use the use of them. Its still up to you whether you follow them, but if you get stopped them you should be grown up enough to face the charge and the fine

Andy
01-15-2006, 09:03 AM
I'm going to end up living in the sewers with Denis Leary.

Demolition Man reference, if anyone wondered.

As long as they don't bring the three seashell law into effect I'll be happy

Paint_It_Black
01-15-2006, 09:04 AM
No i won't. but i do not think the law should be altered because then every fucker would be using that as an excuse when they have been driving dangerously and have killed an innocent passenger and therefore get off with it scot-free.

If the driver was driving dangerously then he would still be responsible, regardless of seat belt law.