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the toy maker
02-04-2006, 07:20 PM
does anybody know what neocon is or what it's about?

Jakebert
02-04-2006, 07:28 PM
A neocon is a neo-conservative.

Hux
02-04-2006, 07:31 PM
A certain group of people who will stand up to their cause or who will just stand up to another certain group of people, hence:

"we are strong
we are right
we won't be pushed aside
we'll go on
we will fight
we will not compromise
we will never lose to you
we will never lose to you
we will never lose to you
we will never lose to you"

the toy maker
02-04-2006, 07:37 PM
A certain group of people who will stand up to their cause or who will just stand up to another certain group of people, hence:

"we are strong
we are right
we won't be pushed aside
we'll go on
we will fight
we will not compromise
we will never lose to you
we will never lose to you
we will never lose to you
we will never lose to you"
ahhh ok i was just curious

Drum Goddess
02-04-2006, 07:57 PM
A certain group of people who will stand up to their cause or who will just stand up to another certain group of people, hence:

"we are strong
we are right
we won't be pushed aside
we'll go on
we will fight
we will not compromise
we will never lose to you
we will never lose to you
we will never lose to you
we will never lose to you"
Dude they made that song into a cheer at my school. It's called "The Dexter Holland Cheer"

Jakebert
02-04-2006, 08:00 PM
You guys have all missed the ironic aspect of the song. It's making fun of the mentallity of a neocon.

XYlophonetreeZ
02-04-2006, 09:17 PM
And furthermore, the tribal-sounding war chanting and boom-boom drums are musical methods of likening the neoconservative philosophy to ancient, primitive, and even barbaric philosophies.

Venom Symbiote
02-04-2006, 11:49 PM
QUOTE:
"A certain group of people who will stand up to their cause or who will just stand up to another certain group of people, hence:"


*buzz* Errr!

Wrong answer, Johnny!

"Neo" = new.

"Conservative" = look it up.

It's not "someone who will stand up to other people". It's basically a conservative person who's not of the "old school" like say the Republican politicians. A "neocon" is someone who's right-wing in a modern, current-generation fashion.

And to "XYlophonetreeZ", I sincerely, sincerely doubt it. Ever notice that Dexter's a conservative? :rolleyes: Noodles, of course, is not. But Greg and Dexter are both pretty conservative guys, in a perfectly "non-Nazi" sane kind of way. Their views are pretty grounded and moderately right-wing. They're pretty-much your standard bourgeosie average middle-class guys.

It's Noodles who's the radical political dude.

And Ron/Atom respectively, I don't think they really give a fuck. :p


P.S. Where does everyone get the idea that Conservative is a bad thing? :confused: Sure, Bush ain't the most intelligent guy in the world, but most of the great American presidents haven't been particularly left in their views.

In moderation and sanity, conservatism is a wonderful thing.

XYlophonetreeZ
02-05-2006, 12:08 AM
We are strong!
We are right!
We won't be pushed aside!
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah!
We'll stand tall, we will fight!
We will never lose to you!
*repeat ad nauseum*
Yes. I'm sure the band called the song "Neocon" and wrote those lyrics with no sense of irony whatsoever, as a vehicle to publicize their conservative political views. And Dexter just said "Fuck you, Noodles. Your views don't matter. I'm the goddamn songwriter and you're my bitch." And I'm sure Noodles just went along with it like the weak baby we all know him to be.

And awwww, how cute that a widdle Australian wishes he lived in America and goes and learns everything about our history and politics! And a Queenslander, no less! Yeah, I don't blame you for wishing you were elsewhere. Yes, you seem like the most typical kind of foreign conservative- just a wannabe American, because you're tired of things being shitty where you live and OMG the US is more conservative than most of the world, so conservatism must be the magical solution to all the shitty governments and conditions in the world! Yippee!

Your fellow Queenslander .:SMASH:., is lurking somewhere on these forums. Go hook up and lick some cane toads together or something.

Plumey
02-05-2006, 12:29 AM
The lyrics sound so much like something a crowd would say at a football game that the irony was totally lost on me.
And just because Greg K plays golf doesn't make him a conservative. Though, honestly, I wouldn't know. :rolleyes:

Hypodermic_89
02-05-2006, 02:14 AM
Dude they made that song into a cheer at my school. It's called "The Dexter Holland Cheer"

hahaha LOL!

Venom Symbiote
02-05-2006, 02:52 AM
:eek:

Holy crap, XYlophonetreeZ, where did that come from? :confused:

Why the abuse?

Look, no doubt there was a little tongue-in-cheek humour about the Neocon song. There is in pretty-much anything Dexter writes. And no, I don't think Dexter was all "fuck up, Noodles, I'm the frontman so what I say goes, hippy". Where exactly did you get that idea?

And to the other guy, no, just because Greg plays golf doesn't make him a conservative. But, that being said, they are. At least moderately so. Noodles is pretty liberal, but Greg and Dexter, at least from whatever little evidence we have, are not. We at least know that Dexter Holland isn't against the War on Terror: we know this as established fact.

And yeah: Greg K is a quiet, golf-playing, sports-nut jock, middle-class, QUALIFIED FINANCIER. These things put together would at least have one assume he's no Michael Moore supporter. Heh.

...

But hell, on another note, since when are "conservative" and "liberal" confined to American politics, anyway? :confused: And I can't take interest in another country? I could most likely tell you as much about British, South African, Russian, and Japanese politics. *shrug* It's called being literate and taking an interest in world affairs, not an inferiority complex about my own country.

But hell, if you want to open that can of worms, Australia along with Canada, New Zealand, and The Netherlands absolutely whoop you on the international reports on living standards and quality of life.

So take that as you will, Chief.

Llamas
02-05-2006, 04:26 PM
venom, you have to understand that we americans are VERY closed off to the world around us, and aren't used to being interested in another country's affairs, so a lot of Americans take it wrong when someone else finds interest in our country. I watched a German news broadcast a couple weeks ago, and we were supposed to compare and contrast German news with American news- one of the biggest things I noticed was that their news was about 40% global news (and nothing about Iraq, either). I thought that was really cool, and it makes me upset that Americans are so closed off.

Greg and Dexter are conservative, maybe not right-wing nuts, but they are definitely conservative. I don't see irony in Neocon. It seems like a very straight-forward song to me. And yes, the guys often use tongue-in-cheek humour, but one thing I've always loved about them is that in one song, nothing is as it seems and it's all just jokes, but then the next one was straight forward literal and serious. They can do both very well, and Neocon definitely comes off as straight-forward long before it seems to be ironic.

Venom Symbiote
02-05-2006, 04:46 PM
Hey, nice post.

Yeah, you're right. "Neocon" as a song can be taken both ways. I like that, how Dexter's lyrics are always VAGUE and there are multiple ways to interpret them. In my opinion that's the draw with "Gone Away" - it *might* be about his wife/girlfriend/fiance' apparently dying (I won't get into that, I'm of the camp of people who think the topic should just be left the fuck alone, out of respect for the guy), but it can be applied to just about ANY loss of ANY kind, any death.

And yeah, I don't think Americans are as bad as you make them out to be there. Sure, they don't know a lot about foreign policy, and tend to be pretty redneck in that respect. But not all. And Australians are basically the opposite, so liberal it's annoying. Kinda like Noodles. Most Australians hate Americans just on the basis that they're American. "Oh, you're a Yankee - you MUST be a Republican arrogant wanker".

It's stupid.

Dexter and Greg are hardly Rush Limbaugh or Howard Stern, sure. But they are definitely your average Joe middle-conservative. Without a doubt.

They're moderates, which is what people SHOULD BE.

And yeah, I'm with you on "Neocon" being a pretty straight-up song, a serious tone. It's just an intro, sure. But you can interpret it either way I think, which is cool. I might not agree with it being a "sarcastic song mocking Bush and his supporters" or whatever, but I guess the liberal kids see it that way.

Which is fine, I guess. Meh.

adombomb222
02-06-2006, 05:23 AM
i like this thread.......

And furthermore, the tribal-sounding war chanting and boom-boom drums are musical methods of likening the neoconservative philosophy to ancient, primitive, and even barbaric philosophies


this just sounds cool
but i too tried to talk, so i tell you what i have to say later.
and i think some football team's fans chant this as the play, i dont know who.... ill ask my uncle, he knows

Llamas
02-06-2006, 11:12 AM
venom:
I think I like you so far- you seem a lot like me as far as moderate views and not making assumptions. I wish people wouldn't try to analyze all off dexter's lyrics because it seems like he writes them so that interpretation is impossible to nail. That's how I write, too. I write so that in the event that anyone ever reads the lyrics or hears the song, they might get a vague feeling of what it's about, but never know exactly.

And I know all Americans aren't that bad. There are a lot that really care about the world (like me). I'm planning on travelling to Austria next year to learn more about German (austrian german) culture, and there are a million other places I'd like to see too... but I know people judge the US and think we're all conservative republicans, and it's really hard not to because of our leader. But anyway, I don't need to get into politics :P I'm very moderate politically- I choose my views based on each individual view, and it balances me out to being of no party. People who say "I want to be liberal, and so I automatically have all liberal views" or the same with conservative, really drive me crazy.

And with Neocon, while I see it as a straight-forward song, I won't try to interpret it as such, because it's obviously super vague, and it's impossible to know what was going through their minds when they wrote it. Whoever said "obvious irony" was obviously a douche. Very little is obvious in the writings of the offspring. It's like saying "viscinity of obscenity" by system of a down is obviously about anal sex. (if you don't know that song, check it out and see how obvious that is :P)

Venom Symbiote
02-06-2006, 04:44 PM
QUOTE:
"And furthermore, the tribal-sounding war chanting and boom-boom drums are musical methods of likening the neoconservative philosophy to ancient, primitive, and even barbaric philosophies


this just sounds cool"



:rolleyes: He's looking into it too much, chief. Don't take too much notice of it.

And ILoveLlamas: I like George W. Bush. Just making that clear. ;) I don't think he's exactly a smart guy, but he has a backbone, which in my opinion makes him better than Kerry could ever be. He's hardly the great Satan he's made out to be.

I mean, sure, he's right-wing, but in comparison to say, Reagan? Fuck. He'sa teddy-bear.

DeAtHsTaR
02-06-2006, 04:54 PM
Democrats and Republicans need to be done away with. They both suck ass.
I'm not anarchist at all, I just want an independent that is neither right-wing nor left-wing in the Oval Office.

Drummerguy123
02-06-2006, 05:15 PM
I've noticed, Venom, that you seem to get in a lot of arguments here. I also noticed a lot of generalized assumptions in your posts, even though you said you weren't generalizing.


Sure, they don't know a lot about foreign policy, and tend to be pretty redneck in that respect.

See? There are very few "rednecks" in the U.S. And most of them live in the south, where not much political action takes place, anyway.


And ILoveLlamas: I like George W. Bush. Just making that clear. I don't think he's exactly a smart guy, but he has a backbone, which in my opinion makes him better than Kerry could ever be. He's hardly the great Satan he's made out to be.

Please tell me you are kidding. Just because the man has a strong will, it doesn't make him a good leader. Would you like to explain why we entered his term with a record projected budget and we are currently in a record deficit? Would you also like to explain why education is going down the tubes, why he is passing many acts to destroy our environment (ANWR, anyone?), banning gay marriage, and allowing the oil companies to amke obscene amounts of money in their profits?


But hell, if you want to open that can of worms, Australia along with Canada, New Zealand, and The Netherlands absolutely whoop you on the international reports on living standards and quality of life.

What does this have to do with anything?


But hell, on another note, since when are "conservative" and "liberal" confined to American politics, anyway?

We never said so, but considering the fact that The offspring are an American band, wouldn't you think that their political views would be more relevant to America?

endlesst0m
02-06-2006, 05:39 PM
You guys have all missed the ironic aspect of the song. It's making fun of the mentallity of a neocon.

hahahaha. i laugh because i'm so incredibly dumb with figuring out song lyrics. you're right.

Venom Symbiote
02-06-2006, 07:55 PM
Nnooo...he's not. He's not right at all.


And regarding your post, Drummerguy: to each his own. I mean, I think Clinton was an awesome president, even though some of his views differed from my own. I hated Reagan for the most part, but like Bush Jr. Bush Sr. was a dick, but that's besides the point.

I was using "redneck" as a general term. It's a pretty widely-believed theory Americans are very insular and don't know a lot about the outside world. Which I don't think is true, but there probably is some minimal truth in the statement. Most, say, Europeans would know a hell of a lot more about America than Americans would about Europe.

Again: in general, there are exceptions. I don't dislike Americans, if that's what you're thinking. In fact, I'll support them most of the time over Australians, if it comes down to it.


And regarding the "what does this have to do with anything?" comment? Nothing. But he brought up the whole "you must have an inferiority complex because your country sucks if you're into American politics", which is just ridiculous. That was just a side comment: if he wants to get into a stupid country-argument (which I wanted to avoid), he should take a look at that. So no, it has nothing to do with the general argument at all, just trying to ward off ungrounded Ameri-centric blind patriotism in the form of saying other countries "suck". If that's what he believes, he should take a look at the international rankings in terms of quality of life, mortality rates, etc. The U.S. isn't even in the top 5 for most of them. ;)

Drummerguy123
02-06-2006, 08:07 PM
How can you say Clinton was a good president? You never lived here so you never experienced his term directly. Although he was better than Bush, he was NOT a good president. As for your use of the term "redneck," if you don't believe that was true, why did you use it? I am sensing contradicting information here. Just because it is the general belief, it doesn't mean you have to use it in an argument as your beliefs, which is what you did. And as for the "Ameri-centric blind patriotism," any decent American will defend their country after comments such as yours, which may involve saying that America is better than most countries because most Americans believe so. I would be one of those Americans. I know that America has flaws and some aspects of other countries are better than the U.S., but I do believe that overall, The United States is remarkable in our success as a country considering how young of a country we are, our cultural diversity, our freedoms, and our history. Now you are annoying me and I don't feel like writing another post like this, so I'm ignoring-listing you.

Little_Miss_1565
02-06-2006, 08:35 PM
Wow, Drummerguy, did you know that you can choose what you get upset about? Don't go blaming Venom for making you put him on your ignore list. And Clinton WAS a good president--the only wrong thing he did was Monica Lewinsky, and that's the only thing that the Republicans can get him on.

And, actually, a little conservatism can be a good thing--just as all things can be good IN MODERATION. Wow, I'm a moderator, talking about moderation. How very droll.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand now, and not ad hominem bullshit.

Drummerguy123
02-06-2006, 08:39 PM
yeah, good point, but I just don't like it when people act like they know my own country better than me even though they don't live here.

Llamas
02-06-2006, 09:21 PM
often times you get a much better perspective when you're outside.

Venom Symbiote
02-07-2006, 03:04 AM
It's probably for the best, Drummerguy. I'm not going to carry out some political grudge-war with you here (which I explicitly outlined I didn't want this to deteriorate into in my first few posts). So if that means you clicking the ol' "Ignore" button on me, whatever, y'know? *shrug*

(There is one thing I have to retort to, though, just quickly...)

QUOTE:
"How can you say Clinton was a good president? "

How can I not? :confused: :p You've gotta understand, the U.S. President affects the WORLD, not just the U.S. As a superpower, his reach is felt far and wide, not just in the ol' homeland.


In response to L_M_1565...

QUOTE:
"Anyway, back to the topic at hand now, and not ad hominem bullshit."

:) While the debate undoubtedly IS "ad hominem bullshit", at the same time it IS pretty related to the topic. One in the same, really, unless it gets too sidetracked.

But point made, well taken.



And ILoveLlamas comes up with a succinct, insightful point once again. :cool: So props to him.

Llamas
02-07-2006, 03:56 PM
I know we're heading back to the main topic, but I have one more addition, too. When I was talking about how close-minded we americans are, I was referring in generalities. Obviously not everyone only cares about the US, but so many of us couldn't give two shits about the government in another country. Other countries rarely affect us, but we affect other countries in great ways. Other countries have a tendancy to be less closed off, and they pay more attention to global affairs than we do, partially because it affects them, and partially because their nations are smaller and have less going on to consume them. We ARE consumed by our own nation's affairs, which is understandable (there is a ton going on for us to ever try to keep up with), but because we rarely think or care about other nations' governments, we can't seem to understand why anyone would care about ours. People in other countries are able to grasp how our nation runs just as well as we can, but through a different view, and I think that listening to what people elsewhere think helps cast light on different aspects of our affairs and politics that I can't see from within.

anyway, I could easily go on with my opinion, but I'll stop there. Back to Neocon. It's a great song and I listened to it today. I'm thinking about mentioning that whole "school cheer" thing to the basketball band coach. :P

Oh, and I'm a girl. :D

Holger estonia
02-25-2006, 12:13 PM
I think that's Splinter's intro

Hux
02-25-2006, 12:39 PM
I think that's Splinter's intro
What was the point in this post? The question has been answered and is an old thread.

Besides, everyone knows it's Splinter's intro. Duh.

endlesst0m
02-25-2006, 12:51 PM
And to the other guy, no, just because Greg plays golf doesn't make him a conservative. But, that being said, they are. At least moderately so. Noodles is pretty liberal, but Greg and Dexter, at least from whatever little evidence we have, are not. We at least know that Dexter Holland isn't against the War on Terror: we know this as established fact.

Really? Could you provide some proof to back up this claim, because I would be really interested to see it.

It's seems incredibly strange that someone could go from writing a song called "Kill The President" (wether it was meant to be taken literally or not) to being a Neo-Conservative. I know Dexter had that song "Damnit, I Changed Again" but fuck, that's a huge difference.

Honestly, I'm not sure I believe that Dexter is a Conservative. I still see "Neocon" as song that attempts to reveal the dangerous mentality of Neocons.

"We will never lose to you"!
I just don't see someone trying to glorify Conservative values by making thier beliefs seem to be based on a competitive, "I win, you lose" mentality.

The song isn't meant to praise Neocons.

Llamas
02-25-2006, 01:07 PM
fyi, greg was going to school for FINANCE and to become a LAWYER. Finance and shit like that is a very conservative field...

Plus they were preppy jocks in highschool, running track and dexter being validictorian... preppy jocks tend to be conservative (american sports represent a certain level of conservative thinking and action).

also, with some of the songs on their first album, they were just tryign to be punk and produce the music other punk bands were doing (DK's stealing people's mail, offspring's beheaded...)

endlesst0m
02-25-2006, 01:16 PM
fyi, greg was going to school for FINANCE and to become a LAWYER. Finance and shit like that is a very conservative field...

Plus they were preppy jocks in highschool, running track and dexter being validictorian... preppy jocks tend to be conservative (american sports represent a certain level of conservative thinking and action).

Damn dude. That's very prejudice. I thought I was really prejudice, but your worse then me. There is no activity or job that you can engage in, that will automatically cause you to have certain political views. Think about it like that. I see what your saying though, and honestly, I think like that sometimes too, but it's not always neccesarily true.

jacknife737
02-25-2006, 02:11 PM
fyi, greg was going to school for FINANCE and to become a LAWYER. Finance and shit like that is a very conservative field...

Plus they were preppy jocks in highschool, running track and dexter being validictorian... preppy jocks tend to be conservative (american sports represent a certain level of conservative thinking and action).



Playing sports, and your chosen profession have nothing to do with political orientation. You have made some serious generalizations.

Llamas
02-25-2006, 03:17 PM
well I didn't mean it like "he did this SO he's conservative". I just meant it as in that it increases the likeliness quite a bit... people who go into finance and things like that USUALLY are money/business minded, which stems from conservative views. People who are very money driven and such tend to be conservative because that's a conservative idea... there's a lot to it. Also, american sports represent conversative america for a lot of reasons, too. It's too complicated to go into. No, playing sports and going into finance doesn't make you conservative. But it makes it very very likely.