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kamikaze
03-14-2006, 05:41 AM
My late father was an alcoholic. After he died, people told me all about how it wasnít his fault he was an alcoholic; he had a disease. My personal opinion on this is that alcoholism isnít a disease. Itís an addiction. He could have done anything in the world to get help for it, but he never did.

We actually had a man come to our school (a former alcoholic) and tell us all about how alcoholism is a disease. He said, which I know only vaguely remember, things about how certain peoplesí brains have better receptors for alcoholism. I donít disagree with that. Iím sure some people really DO have better receptors for alcoholism, but I donít believe itís a disease.

Saying alcoholism is a disease is like saying heroin addiction is a disease. My mother tells me constantly that if I ever drink anything alcoholic, Iíll be a drunk just like my father was. That, to me, is bullshit. I donít believe that I will be an alcoholic because Iíve seen what alcoholism does. I know the consequences. If I ever got to that point with drinking, I would do everything in my power to stop.

What do you think about it?

Rocky-girl
03-14-2006, 05:58 AM
I think it's a addiction that can become a disease. But disease for men not for women. Because they can recover, if they really want to. And I didn't understand what about you? You didn't drink 'cause your father was an alcholik?

wheelchairman
03-14-2006, 07:42 AM
I couldn't care less, because I don't waste my time worrying about trivial shit like the wording of things.

clokey43
03-14-2006, 07:42 AM
My father is/was an alcoholic. Currently he is giving it up, he has been to rehab and goes to AA meetings regularly. For as long as I remember my father has been an alcoholic and it took my mum to divorce him for him to realise he has a problem. I also don't agree that it is a disease. To me a disease is something you catch not something you bring on yourself. During my fathers married life he was given opportunities to give up the alcohol but never did. Although I am rebuilding my relationship with my dad, which I am aware many people don't get the chance to do, I am always warey that at any point he could turn back to alcohol.

My mother is worried that I may become an alcoholic and often tells me. She thinks that because I go out with my friends aoccasionaly and drink that I am following his footsteps. I try to reassure her that it is only a drink she belive that is how my father started.

I thinks that alcoholism is an addiction and can be broken, I just think some alcoholics are blind of this fact. My father used to say it was my brothers and sisters and my fault that he drank, which is not true, now he understands it was his doing.

I just wish he noticed earlier and then maybe my mum wouldnt have had to go through so much pain. Anyone who says alcoholism is a disease cant have any experiance of it!

wheelchairman
03-14-2006, 07:48 AM
I just wish he noticed earlier and then maybe my mum wouldnt have had to go through so much pain. Anyone who says alcoholism is a disease cant have any experiance of it!
You mean like the actual alcoholics...?

clokey43
03-14-2006, 07:54 AM
ok fair point! In my experiance alcoholics dont see it as a disease. That might just be my experiance though!

Preocupado
03-14-2006, 08:15 AM
None of the terms seem coherent to me. I just see it as the alcoholic condition.

Andy
03-14-2006, 08:18 AM
I'm sorry, how can that even be considered? Alcoholism is an addiction, and not a disease. Blaming this problem on it being a "disease" is the cowards way out, a way of moving the blame from the individuals own weaknesses. What's to stop everybody who has an addiction to start arguing, "hey, don't blame me - it's a disease!"

Sure, it's a terrible thing to go through, and some people are more succeptable to it than others; but calling it a disease is very wrong.

Lars
03-14-2006, 08:23 AM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qADTvbNsqFA

T-6005
03-14-2006, 08:24 AM
Is alcoholism treated with meds, I ask you.

Andy
03-14-2006, 08:40 AM
Is alcoholism treated with meds, I ask you.
And can you catch it??

Oh, is smoking a disease as well?

darko
03-14-2006, 10:03 AM
I was say addiction....here they give alcoholic an allowance which i think is wrong. You see the local alcoholic on the way to the supermarket first thing in the morning, its sad and basically its giving out a message of 'its alright'. Probably explains The Islands raging alcoholism problem

Dmarques
03-14-2006, 10:16 AM
In the begin the alcoholism is an addiction, but then it may be considered as a disease. Alcoholics have problem like brain deterioration and other problems.
So, first it is an addiction, you drink because you like, cause it's cool, etc... but then, you're "there" and it's impossible to run away without help.

JoY
03-14-2006, 10:40 AM
I think the question is not if alcoholism is either an addiction, or a disease, but if addiction is a disease. because alcoholism is clearly an addiction. whether you can call it a disease is the question.

somehow, some way alcoholism does seem to be genetic. well, we know for sure that being vulnerable to addictions is genetic, or at least *can* be genetic. this can be expressed in several different ways; some people seek thrills, like for instance people with ADHD. they need thrills to release a certain tension & make a certian chemical in the brain that temporarily gives them some rest. drugs are unfortunately a relatively easy way to provide us of this certain thrill, or kick. this is obviously genetic.
then there are people, that don't have to use something very frequently in such great amounts to get addicted to them. this has, among other things, to do with tolerance, which is also genetic.

based on this, you could call alcoholism a disease.

not everything we have in our DNA has to come to expression. our nurture (upbringing, culture, environment, friends, etc) influences our characters & co-decides what comes to expression from the characters that are saved on our 'harddisk'.

based on the fact we don't have a choice when it comes to what natural eyecolour we would like to have, but that we do have a choice when it comes to picking up a glass with vodka, you could call alcoholism a selfish choice.

alcoholism brings a lot of pain into a family. it's basically the suicide of someone you love, because an alcoholic WILL in the end die of liverfailure, unless they stop. unlike with smoking, there's no way around it. some people are genetically vulnerable to it, like I described. but people could also just be vulnerable to using drugs, because they're not in 'a happy place'. in that case it seems more of a choice. but in the end.. alcoholism is in both cases a choice. with every drink again, alcoholics choose to be the way they are & let booze define them. there's the force of the addiction, a certain loss of self-control, but it takes miles to get to that point, that it's out of your control.

it's an easy addiction to toss yourself into, because it's socially accepted by our society to drink alcohol & sometimes maybe even expected. that small fact makes our entire society more vulnerable to become addicted to this drug. alcoholism, & physical & emotional addictions overal, are a very complicated issue. whether the addict is to blame for his/her own addiction? I don't know. I guess to a certain point of course they are. but I do know, that when they've reached the point of addiction, they mostly have less self-control, which causes less self-confidence (they can't trust themselves), which causes even more dependancy, also to the product they're addicted to, which causes more drama, which causes them to search for some kind of drug-induced nirvana, etc, etc, etc. when people suddenly let themselves be defined by an addiction, they can't solve the problem on their own & really need all the support they can get. so yeah, you can be pissed off when someone you know is an addict to something, but in the end, if you want them to get rid off the addiction, you'll need to stick with him/her, encourage him/her to get professional treatment & give all the support you can give.

to become an addict is somewhat a choice. you know you ALWAYS have to be careful with ANY drug & that there's always the possibility of becoming addicted, be it emotionally, or physically. moderation is the key. but once you are addicted.. it *is* somewhat a disease. a disease that robs you of every bit of self-confidence, self-esteem, self-respect, self-control & self-love you ever had.

MindlessSelfIndulgent
03-14-2006, 10:43 AM
Anyone who says alcoholism is a disease cant have any experiance of it!

Hello! I'm going through the exact same stuff you are. And I DO I DO I DO think it is a disease. Yes. Thank you.

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/genetics/l/aa990517.htm blah blahh

JoY
03-14-2006, 10:48 AM
And can you catch it??

Oh, is smoking a disease as well?
like I said; the question is more if addiction is a disease, yes or no. the scary part about that question, is that there's always a sense of guilt in it. "who's to blame" & "who can we hold responsible". we like pointing fingers. it ensures us that there's no way we ourselves could ever be to blame.

JoY
03-14-2006, 10:51 AM
To me a disease is something you catch not something you bring on yourself.
you just verbally fired every single psychiatrist out there.

"because if it's mental, it's not physical", right? let me tell you, the brain is also just another organ. & it doesn't work on it's own & does exactly what you want it to do. it's, like every other organ, under control of physiology, DNA coding & biologic systems.

Paint_It_Black
03-14-2006, 02:47 PM
I'm sorry, how can that even be considered? Alcoholism is an addiction, and not a disease. Blaming this problem on it being a "disease" is the cowards way out, a way of moving the blame from the individuals own weaknesses. What's to stop everybody who has an addiction to start arguing, "hey, don't blame me - it's a disease!"

Sure, it's a terrible thing to go through, and some people are more succeptable to it than others; but calling it a disease is very wrong.

I generally agree.

Andy
03-14-2006, 03:03 PM
I generally agree.
You're a wise man.

Sin Studly
03-14-2006, 03:07 PM
If alcoholism is a disease, then so is having big muscles. It's conditioning of your body cause by your own actions.

Paint_It_Black
03-14-2006, 03:11 PM
But Justin, some people seem genetically prone to developing big muscles. If their father had big muscles and their grandfather had big muscles, that means if they work out they might develop big muscles too!

Rocky-girl
03-14-2006, 08:48 PM
You said right they have genetically prone and only! If they don't widen thier abilities they will have nothing. Or you say that babies are born with muscules? I think the same is alcocholism.

yay
03-14-2006, 08:48 PM
Alcoholism is an addiction. Same with smoking. People could give it up if they really wanted to.

Rocky-girl
03-14-2006, 08:49 PM
Alcoholism is an addiction. Same with smoking. People could give it up if they really wanted to.
Don't you know that smoking cause Breath Cancer (is this right)?

T-6005
03-14-2006, 08:50 PM
Alcoholism is an addiction. Same with smoking. People could give it up if they really wanted to.
I think you're distilling it too far with "if they really wanted to". It's never that simple.

yay
03-14-2006, 08:56 PM
I think you're distilling it too far with "if they really wanted to". It's never that simple.There are always the reasons why people get into habits such as alcoholism, but they could always get counselling, or see a doctor, but they prefer to continue on their stupid habit.

Sin Studly
03-14-2006, 08:59 PM
But then there's the people who will actually die if they stop drinking...

Rocky-girl
03-14-2006, 09:01 PM
But then there's the people who will actually die if they stop drinking...
Really? I don't belive....

Sin Studly
03-14-2006, 09:07 PM
Five percent of acute ethanol withdrawal cases progress to delirium tremens. Unlike the withdrawal syndrome associated with opiate or stimulant addiction, delirium tremens (and alcohol withdrawal in general) can be fatal. Mortality can be up to 35% if untreated, though if treated early, death rates may be as low as 5%.

Time to believe, moja mala dcťrska.

Rocky-girl
03-14-2006, 09:22 PM
Time to believe, moja mala dcťrska.
dobre, papushka, ja veriť (verim) tebe. I don't know which is right!khkh:(:(

Sin Studly
03-14-2006, 09:24 PM
Verim. And if you use verim you can drop the ja. Verim tebe. Or maybe verim ty. You'll have to ask mamushka to get the proper grammar.

sKratch
03-14-2006, 09:53 PM
Time to believe, moja mala dcťrska.
35% of 5% is 1.75%. I'm not even sure if acute ethanol withdrawel is regular alcohol withdrawel or not. Is it a special case?

ninthlayer
03-14-2006, 10:12 PM
The real question is this: was your father a fun drunk or an angry drunk?

Nina
03-15-2006, 12:01 AM
A lot of things can be explained with genetics, but not this one.
The only thing that can be said is that some get *easier* addicted than others. Just as much as some people can easier be good in something (like drawing). However, what actually comes out of it is what you (and your enviornment) do with it. Thus, someone might get easier addicted than someone else, but that doesnt mean that it is in his gens than control this.
That's why I dont think that an addiction is a disease.

Rocky-girl
03-15-2006, 03:18 AM
Verim. And if you use verim you can drop the ja. Verim tebe. Or maybe verim ty. You'll have to ask mamushka to get the proper grammar.
dobre. ja spżtať sa. čoskoro ne budem verit' tebe. I think there are many mistakes, so don't punish me very srtongly.

Sin Studly
03-15-2006, 04:19 AM
Why will you soon not trust me?

kamikaze
03-15-2006, 05:08 AM
The real question is this: was your father a fun drunk or an angry drunk?

Well, I remember once when he came home, trashed out of his mind, and tried taking my mom's car. When she said no, he slapped her. But he never hurt me. He ended up just disappearing for a while.

Nicole
03-15-2006, 05:12 AM
Alcoholism is an addiction. The only disease part of it I can see is liver damage and the like.

I also think there's too much genetics blaming going on here. What about environmental factors? Alcohol is easy to get hold of, encouraged, considered fun and it's almost a right-of-passage to make a complete arse of yourself at some stage during your adolescent years. It's also a big thing in our society to drink when things go wrong, or when things go right. So social conditioning is a huge factor and it is largely learnt behaviour. I guess you just have to put somebody under those conditions enough and the body has a huge bitch, addictive tendencies aren't quite as valid in my opinion. With other addictions there aren't the same accepting qualities so how do you know what is making the person get to that level?

Er, too much rambling. Nursing has been getting to my head on all this "health" stuff and cultural factors and whathaveyou.

JoY
03-15-2006, 05:54 AM
I used the exact same 'arguments', Nicky. (but as usual my post was quite long, so I doubt anyone read it) & also in my case the whole health stuff has been getting to my head. all the studies, researches, papers, articles, combined with patients & 'real life' examples in your environment.. pfff. *sigh*

Nina
03-15-2006, 06:45 AM
Who blamed it on genetics, dear?

JoY
03-15-2006, 07:35 AM
I did in part of my post. but not in an unreasonable way, I believe.

Nina
03-15-2006, 07:45 AM
I kinda meant the same thing as you, and I consider what I said very logical, thus yours was logical to me too :P And the weird thing is, Nicole said exactly the same, and then said that someone (who?) is blaming it on teh gens. I dun get it. Ah well.
Hi Isa :]

clokey43
03-15-2006, 07:51 AM
Hello! I'm going through the exact same stuff you are. And I DO I DO I DO think it is a disease. Yes. Thank you.

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/genetics/l/aa990517.htm blah blahh

Thats fair enough, that article is sad, the really beleive you are more likely to become an alcoholic if one of your parents are? Its sad if this can be linked as a hereditary condition.

Edit: Joy, I didn't mean that the brain is any different from the rest of the organs because as you say it isn't. I ment that (I may be being narrow minded or naive ) a disease to me means something that you dont really chose to have, where alcoholism is something you chose to be. As I said I may just be being naive.

JoY
03-15-2006, 09:37 AM
we make teh sense, omg!
hi Nina. ;D

ninthlayer
03-15-2006, 10:22 AM
Good job ignoring the real issue guys.

Rocky-girl
03-15-2006, 10:24 AM
Why will you soon not trust me?
I forgot! Ah yes, why Sudan? Maybe Ephiopia or Chad?

MindlessSelfIndulgent
03-15-2006, 10:32 AM
I am! Blaming it on the genes. Yes. A bit.

Aaaand. Stop saying "omg see a doctor, get counselling". Pfffft! It's noooo that fucking simple. Uh buh huh, my father's been to rehab twice, he's seeing a doctor and he's getting counselling. And for yeeeaars. He still drinks. Eventhough he's on antabuse and it makes him sick. Blah blah.,

the_GoDdEsS
03-15-2006, 11:00 AM
It's verŪm ti.

Rocky-girl
03-15-2006, 11:14 AM
It's verŪm ti.
What difference between ti, ty and tebe?

the_GoDdEsS
03-15-2006, 11:16 AM
Rather difficult. Ty is always nominative basic form. Tebe is to you. And ti is dative (=whom).

Rocky-girl
03-15-2006, 08:35 PM
Rather difficult. Ty is always nominative basic form. Tebe is to you. And ti is dative (=whom).
Isn't tebe dativ?

Duskygrin
03-15-2006, 10:23 PM
It stands to reason it is an addiction.

Nicole
03-15-2006, 10:34 PM
I used the exact same 'arguments', Nicky. (but as usual my post was quite long, so I doubt anyone read it) & also in my case the whole health stuff has been getting to my head. all the studies, researches, papers, articles, combined with patients & 'real life' examples in your environment.. pfff. *sigh*

I know. But I didn't feel like saying "I agree..." because it's something I feel like I had to put into my own words. And who said what gets a little blurry after reading a whole page.

We're both probably getting taught very similar things so I'm not surprised we'd come to the same conclusions :) Great minds and all.

Nina
03-16-2006, 12:07 AM
How motherfucking annoying.

Nicole
03-16-2006, 12:25 AM
What exactly was that in reference to?

.:SMASH:.
03-16-2006, 01:57 AM
i think it's an addiction. like smoking, it's not necessarily a disease, you just get addicted then die from it later. same with alcohol, it's just harder to die from it

JoY
03-16-2006, 01:45 PM
it's pretty much a piece of cake to die from alcohol. try to overdose on nicotine.

the_GoDdEsS
03-16-2006, 01:46 PM
i think it's an addiction. like smoking, it's not necessarily a disease, you just get addicted then die from it later. same with alcohol, it's just harder to die from it

Weeeeeeeeoooooooooow, oi'm a smart Qwwweeenswander.