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View Full Version : What happens if you murder a murderer?



Marco
05-21-2006, 02:14 AM
:D What happens? Do you go to prison? What happens in your country?

the_GoDdEsS
05-21-2006, 02:25 AM
Specify the situation and circumstances.

Marco
05-21-2006, 02:33 AM
If you murder him just because you know he's a murderer. Even if he didn't do anything to you

Sin Studly
05-21-2006, 02:41 AM
You go to prison, idiot.

Marco
05-21-2006, 02:43 AM
In many countries not, moron

Sin Studly
05-21-2006, 02:51 AM
Name them, along with links to the applicable laws. There aren't many countries who use social execution as a punishment anymore. And more so, there are no countries in which murder ; no matter the circumstances ; is not punishable by imprisonment.

edit ; and Sealand is not a real country.

Preocupado
05-21-2006, 03:25 AM
You go to prision because murdering is murder.

Where exactly is "Paradise", Marco?

Marco
05-21-2006, 03:31 AM
Where exactly is "Paradise", Marco?
Hummmm good question....let's say a mix of the best places on earth

Preocupado
05-21-2006, 03:38 AM
I refer to your location, Marco.

Andy
05-21-2006, 07:41 AM
In many countries not
That is probably the most bullshit statement I have heard all month.

Little_Miss_1565
05-21-2006, 08:14 AM
Even if you murder a murderer while in prison, you still go down for it. You go to trial, and your sentence will be extended. There's consequences for murder no matter what the circumstances. Unless, of course, they are attacking you and it's self-defense, but your example specified that this person did nothing to this hypothetical you.

Sin Studly
05-21-2006, 09:20 AM
Unless, of course, they are attacking you and it's self-defense, but your example specified that this person did nothing to this hypothetical you.

In that case it would not be "murder".

Andy
05-21-2006, 09:28 AM
Manslaughter, but in our bloody legal system, you'd still go down for a long time for it. "One man's life isn't worth more than another" and other such bollocks.

Sin Studly
05-21-2006, 09:35 AM
You're supposed to get justifiable homicide, which isn't a crime. But yeah, the legal system has to be very careful about handing those out, to prevent people from taking advantage of the system. So you'd mostly likely be hit with involuntary manslaughter.

clokey43
05-21-2006, 10:00 AM
I find the Law on Murder intersting. These cases involved in it are really good. As for the question asked by whathever his name is, my answer is the same as everyone else.

JoY
05-21-2006, 10:32 AM
In many countries not, moron
you go to prison, doh. except when you're the American government (or who ever does the actual dirty work, actually), then it's fine.

Little_Miss_1565
05-21-2006, 10:44 AM
In that case it would not be "murder".

...which is what I said.

Sin Studly
05-21-2006, 11:24 AM
There's consequences for murder no matter what the circumstances. Unless, of course, they are attacking you and it's self-defense, but your example specified that this person did nothing to this hypothetical you.

'Fraid not.

no_way
05-21-2006, 11:38 AM
Unless, of course, they are attacking you and it's self-defense.

But you have to go through a really deep investigation until authorities are 100% certaint that it was actually self-defense. Otherwise you do go to prison.

Sin Studly
05-21-2006, 11:46 AM
If there's any doubt whatsoever, it's highly unlikely you'll cop murder.

NachoS_Ixnay
05-21-2006, 11:53 AM
But you have to go through a really deep investigation until authorities are 100% certaint that it was actually self-defense. Otherwise you do go to prison.
it doesn't change nothing here, it's still murder. you must go to prision at least a few weeks

Sin Studly
05-21-2006, 12:04 PM
*sighs*

You cannot murder a person in self-defence. That's impossible.

no_way
05-21-2006, 12:06 PM
better to let him/her kill yourself??? thanks but no thanks

Sin Studly
05-21-2006, 12:07 PM
If you kill a person in self-defence, it isn't murder. Idiot.

edit ; actually, to be technical, if the courts decided you killed them in self-defence, it isn't murder.

no_way
05-21-2006, 12:08 PM
it doesn't change nothing here, it's still murder. you must go to prision at least a few weeks

not here, sorry

WebDudette
05-21-2006, 12:09 PM
Murder in any way shape or form is illegal and you will go to prison for it.

Killing some one in self defense is only illegal if you can't stop them any other way I believe.

jacknife737
05-21-2006, 12:55 PM
Killing some one in self defense is only illegal if you can't stop them any other way I believe.

Self Defence laws of Canada.


Criminal Code, Sections 34-37


34. (1) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself.

(2) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted and who causes death or grievous bodily harm in repelling the assault is justified if
(a) he causes it under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm from the violence with which the assault was originally made or with which the assailant pursues his purposes; and
(b) he believes, on reasonable grounds, that he cannot otherwise preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm.

35. Every one who has without justification assaulted another but did not commence the assault with intent to cause death or grievous bodily harm, or has without justification provoked an assault on himself by another, may justify the use of force subsequent to the assault if
(a) he uses the force
(i) under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm from the violence of the person whom he has assaulted or provoked, and
(ii) in the belief, on reasonable grounds, that it is necessary in order to preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm;
( b) he did not, at any time before the necessity of preserving himself from death or grievous bodily harm arose, endeavour to cause death or grievous bodily harm; and
(c) he declined further conflict and quitted or retreated from it as far as it was feasible to do so before the necessity of preserving himself from death or grievous bodily harm arose.

36. Provocation includes, for the purposes of sections 34 and 35, provocation by blows, words or gestures.

37. (1) Every one is justified in using force to defend himself or any one under his protection from assault, if he uses no more force than is necessary to prevent the assault or the repetition of it.
(2) Nothing in this section shall be deemed to justify the wilful infliction

Andy
05-21-2006, 01:58 PM
If you kill a person in self-defence, it isn't murder. Idiot.
Exactly! Christ, people need educating. Guys, do a google search on the Mens Rea and Actus Reus of murder, and then do the same with manslaughter. Then you can come back and continue this ridiculous facade of knowing what the fuck you are on about.

clokey43
05-21-2006, 02:43 PM
Exactly! Christ, people need educating. Guys, do a google search on the Mens Rea and Actus Reus of murder, and then do the same with manslaughter. Then you can come back and continue this ridiculous facade of knowing what the fuck you are on about.

No need to google, Actus Reus - Unlawfull killing of a reasonable creature in being Under the Queen's Peace.
Mens Rea - Malice aforethought express or implied.

Reduced to Involuntary Manslaughter if the required mens rea isnt present.
Reduced to Voluntary M/S if one of the defences are availiable - Provocation, Self Defence and diminished responsibility.

Simple if you kill someone intentionally its Murder,. If you intend GBH but causes death Murder. If provoked or in self defence or uyour under diminished responsibility its Manslaughter and if you are reckless in doing the act and didnt realise it might cause death then its Manslaughter.

That is the Law in the UK under the Homicide Act .

(I hope this is all correct anyway.)

NachoS_Ixnay
05-21-2006, 05:25 PM
If you kill a person in self-defence, it isn't murder. Idiot.

well, i made a mistake, a big one. Sorry.

no_way
05-22-2006, 01:53 PM
If you kill a person in self-defence, it isn't murder.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't 'murder' equal 'homicide'? If it does, you are murdering when you kill a person on self-defence, you may not go to prison for it, but you still do because homicide means to 'kill a man', doesn't imply any kind of situation.

clokey43
05-22-2006, 02:05 PM
What I believe he means is if you murder under self-defence it isn't murder in the legal sense of the word, in the literal meaning at may still be so.

TheUnholyNightbringer
05-22-2006, 06:25 PM
Thank christ someone else understands. I was starting to gip.

Preocupado
05-22-2006, 07:29 PM
Take a look at this, people. Tell me if it's murder:

"information about the 18-year old Iranian girl Nazanin Mahabad Fatehi, who has been sentenced to death by hanging. Nazanin`s "crime" was killing a man who ambushed and tried to rape her."

http://save.nazanin.googlepages.com/home

clokey43
05-23-2006, 12:10 AM
It most probably wouldn't be under the UK law but Iranian law may be different, I don't know. Any Country that could possibly impose a death penalty on a 9yr Old child really doesn't have many morals. It appears they are going down the 'punishment of the act' rather than looking at why it was done.

Sin Studly
05-23-2006, 01:55 AM
Take a look at this, people. Tell me if it's murder:

"At January 3, 2006, Nazanin was sentenced to death for murder "

Uh..... hmm. That's a tough one. Is murder murder?

Preocupado
05-23-2006, 02:15 AM
Go beyond that. I'm interested in pulling the "in this or in that culture's morals" murder view, like Clokey did.

Sin Studly
05-23-2006, 02:21 AM
mur·der (mūrdr)
n.
The unlawful killing of one human by another

It's murder, pure and simple. No matter what your opinion on the justification of it is, it's still murder. There's no way to go beyond it.

clokey43
05-23-2006, 04:28 AM
Go beyond that. I'm interested in pulling the "in this or in that culture's morals" murder view, like Clokey did.

In a sense all matters of justice contain morality. In the UK it was suggested that most Laws are based on Morals. There is a whole debate about whether this is corrct or not. I believe it is the Hart Devlin debate.

Sin Studly
05-23-2006, 04:41 AM
The Law is never wrong, asshole. The Law just fucking Is.

"I know not whether laws be right,
Or whether laws be wrong,
All we know who lie in gaol,
Is that the wall is strong,
And every day is like a year,
A year whose days are long,"

clokey43
05-23-2006, 04:53 AM
No sure if you are refering to my post or not. If you are, I didn't say the Law was incorrect, I said that it was suggested that law shouldn't be based on morals. I am aware the law 'is'.

Preocupado
05-23-2006, 08:24 AM
The Hart Devlin debate sums up lots of what i'm looking for, thanks.

clokey43
05-23-2006, 09:06 AM
It's a really interesting debate. Who's side are you on. I think I side more with professor Hart who believs there should be 'a clear seperation between laws and morals'. Although Devlin does make interesting points for the opposition.

Preocupado
05-24-2006, 09:34 AM
Clokey, i don't know yet on wich side i am. I got myself several articles and essays about the debate saved, but from the superficial read i've made so far i can't call a positioning, i just got a basic view of both side's arguments.


I think I side more with professor Hart who believs there should be 'a clear seperation between laws and morals'

That sounded really strange to me, as i can't possibly imagine how it could be done.

clokey43
05-24-2006, 03:40 PM
Well agreed it is difficult to find a clear seperation but I think it can be done. Most of the Law's are passed because of pressure from well 'pressure groups' like the one against smoking etc. Law's I believe should be about stopping crimminal matters (although civil are important). What I'm trying to say is there is to much criminalisation of everyday things and these arrive from morals. There should be an equilibrium, for example smoking. If we have non-smoking pubs as well as smoking ones then everyone is happy as they have a choice.

However, like you I don't have a huge knowledge on the matter and I am working on improving that.

offspring dude
06-18-2006, 03:08 PM
Ok, many people get executed for murdering a person, but isn't the person who ordered to execute also murdering? so shoudnt he get done for it? and shoudnt the person who ordered for him to get done also get done for it? and so on and so on?

Its all a pointless system

Sin Studly
06-18-2006, 03:44 PM
but isn't the person who ordered to execute also murdering

No, idiot. Murdering is the unlawful killing of a person. Obviously if killing people is your LEGALLY SANCTIONED DAYJOB WHICH THE GOVERNMENT PUBLICLY CONDONES AND EVEN PAYS YOU FOR you aren't murdering anybody. Fucking moron.

JoY
06-19-2006, 10:41 AM
"At January 3, 2006, Nazanin was sentenced to death for murder "

Uh..... hmm. That's a tough one. Is murder murder?
oh man, have I recently done any attempts to boost your ego? because I'd give it a shot just for that post.

wheelchairman
06-19-2006, 02:34 PM
The penalty for murder is murder. When the man who murders the murderer is finished, we have to murder him as his punishment. Why do you think the death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment?

Sin Studly
06-19-2006, 02:49 PM
oh man, have I recently done any attempts to boost your ego? because I'd give it a shot just for that post.

No, you haven't. Tell me I have great pecs.

dexterandnoodles
06-19-2006, 07:37 PM
who nos no1

JoY
06-20-2006, 03:04 AM
No, you haven't. Tell me I have great pecs.
you have great pecs.

...that was it?

Sin Studly
06-22-2006, 09:37 AM
That'll do just fine.

Wolfmother
07-16-2006, 12:04 PM
Name them, along with links to the applicable laws. There aren't many countries who use social execution as a punishment anymore. And more so, there are no countries in which murder ; no matter the circumstances ; is not punishable by imprisonment.

edit ; and Sealand is not a real country.

i agree there arn't many countries if any that you would get away with killing another man because he was a murdered. What would make you any better than him???

Sin Studly
07-16-2006, 09:31 PM
i agree there arn't many countries


See the bolded letter? Lose it.

ninthlayer
07-16-2006, 09:32 PM
Yeah Sin, I can't think of many countries either that would let you get away with killing a man that was murdered either.

Outerbands
07-17-2006, 02:28 PM
The Law is never wrong, asshole. The Law just fucking Is.


In that light, the oft cited O.W Holmes quote, "this is not a court of justice young man, it's a court of law".

Harnum
07-27-2006, 07:36 PM
Totally off topic but... In one country/state, I heard that if you attempted suicide, you're sentence is death. Ironic?

wheelchairman
07-28-2006, 01:35 AM
And you believed it?

obsessedoffspring1
08-12-2006, 09:47 PM
Totally off topic but... In one country/state, I heard that if you attempted suicide, you're sentence is death. Ironic?

i heard that as well

no_way
08-12-2006, 09:51 PM
http://www.offspring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23963

And don't bring this up ever again please.

Tigger Army
08-16-2006, 02:21 PM
If you murder him just because you know he's a murderer. Even if he didn't do anything to you

Well at least in some states of the usa and a lot of arab countries you'd get off the hook if you're an official gouvernmental executioner