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MuddahFukkah
08-03-2006, 09:34 AM
Is democracy (as we know it nowadays) really democratic??...

Is it really a synonym for "people's rule??"...

If you think so, tell me why, please... And if you don't, tell me what would you improve to make our systems to be more "democratic"... ;)

THANK YOU VERY MUCH... :D

wheelchairman
08-03-2006, 09:40 AM
Democracy is a form of government in which people elect people to represent them in centralized government.

People's Rule is the root of the word. That's all. And we actually live in a representative democracy.

MuddahFukkah
08-03-2006, 09:48 AM
Democracy is a form of government in which people elect people to represent them in centralized government.

People's Rule is the root of the word. That's all. And we actually live in a representative democracy.

Thank you for your reaction, wheelchairman... I know all these things, but I was rather interested in personal opinions of readers... Something like: "Is there something what can make our system better?..."

But as I said... Thanks for contribution... It is always good to know some details...






EDIT: I mean... Is not a using of word "democracy" kind of hypocrisy??... Or inaccuracy?... (my opinion)

Dear readers... If you are that kind of "fuck-the-system" guys, what would you change?...

I mean... It is good to criticise the system or whatever, but it is meaningless without pointing out a solution of problems... Don't you think?...

wheelchairman
08-03-2006, 09:57 AM
Your entire basis for debate pretty much implied that it could be more democratic. You gave a false definition of the modern democratic system.

Furthermore you need to take into account that every country has a completely different democratic process. And others don't have any at all (whether this is justifiable or not, can be debated.)

But I'll answer more in detail. I come from a state called Oregon in the United States. Our electoral votes are more or less meaningless. And there isn't enough money coming from my state to play any major influence on any major party policy. So we see, that the US government has no real interest in keeping Oregon happy. I support the Oregon secessionist movement. We're a state that supports gay marriage, euthanasia, abortions and the right to enjoy Kevin Costner films. This would in my opinion, better suit the wishes of the Oregonian people.

However in a huge country like America, there are other interests and areas with more people to take into account. So it's no surprise that this has been the development.

Revolver-2005?
08-04-2006, 04:19 PM
And we actually live in a representative democracy.

If you're talking about America then I'm fairly sure we live in a Constitutional Republic, maybe they're the same thing? I'm not sure.

Anyway we don't know what democracy is today because we don't live in a democracy, just something based off one. From memory, I believe the only true democracy was Rome, we only read about that in history books and we don't live it.

So to say what would make a democracy better, well to make it better we'd need one in present times first.

ninthlayer
08-04-2006, 04:37 PM
America is a representative democracy, the people elect officials that would ideally make the same decisions as themselves in office. IE: a representative.

Emily_offspring_fan
08-04-2006, 05:02 PM
Democracy is a form of government in which people elect people to represent them in centralized government.

People's Rule is the root of the word. That's all. And we actually live in a representative democracy.
Democracy means "People's power"
Demo: people
Cracy: power
(or something like that)
Derives from Greek if I'm not mistaken.

Preocupado
08-04-2006, 05:06 PM
You rule and make the decisions if you have power. Same thing.

noodlesfan
08-04-2006, 10:31 PM
The US has too large of a population to support a direct-democracy. That kind of thing only works in small villages and small countries back in the 1700's.

wheelchairman
08-04-2006, 10:49 PM
Democracy means "People's power"
Demo: people
Cracy: power
(or something like that)
Derives from Greek if I'm not mistaken.
Rule and power were synonymous. I wasn't just going around saying "People rule! yeah!"

Melissa_ab90
08-04-2006, 11:44 PM
In this moment, democracy means ''astuteness''... why??..

Because so much time ago the most of people've been blind (everybody around consumption) and you can see now the worst presidents eating the world... The ''democracy'' has been manipulated, you don't know what's really happens, just because they got the control of the most of mass media... Are few the people's mind who don't have been sold...

:cool:

MuddahFukkah
08-05-2006, 03:54 AM
I am coming from the Czech Republic and we have got proportional electorial system here... It means that all parties which gain more than 5% (in case of CZ) of votes get to the parliament and have legislative power (They get at least about 5 seats out of 200 possible)... This system works in many european countries. However, it is different system than the one working in Great Britain or USA, for example... You all know it...

Why do I speak about it... Two months ago there were elections held in my country... 16 years after the Velvet Revolution (1989 - the end of communism in the Czechoslovakia) happened something important!!... For the first time a non-parliamentary party succeeded to get more than 5% of votes and got to the parliament... It was Green Party (they got 7% of votes)... I didn't vote for them, but I think it is great the things like that are possible in my country... I think it reflects better the opinions of people (sometimes also their frustration, haha)... That's why I can be proud of our electorial system...

but...

What I am NOT proud of are our politicians and the system itself!!... That's why I fully agree with Melissa and Revolver... I believe that politicians in most of the 'modern' countries hold too great portion of power which can corrupt them... Yes, we (common people) vote them, but what about then?!... We can shut up!... They can do whatever they consider to be 'pragmatic' whether you want or not... Whether it IS in contradiction with their programs or NOT!!... 4 YEARS!!...

I believe that the current technologies enable to put the power into hands of common people without any problems... In the world of internet, mobile phones and many other thingies it IS possible to vote from the couch of your home!!... Or not?... I know, there is another question: 'Are people clever enough to make such important decisions?'... I think they are NOT... The reform would have to come hand in hand with education system and needed amout of information... But who says we would have to make decisions about EVERYTHING right from the beginning?!... Hehe... :D

the_GoDdEsS
08-05-2006, 04:00 AM
Probably your people went green because they were frustrated and disappointed with both left and right? I really did not follow your politics. Just asking.

MuddahFukkah
08-05-2006, 04:03 AM
Probably your people went green because they were frustrated and disappointed with both left and right? I really did not follow your politics. Just asking.

Yep, you are right... They were frustrated, too... :D Probably the main reason, hihi...

the_GoDdEsS
08-05-2006, 04:08 AM
What was the participation? How many voters? And what parties made it?

MuddahFukkah
08-05-2006, 04:15 AM
What was the participation? How many voters? And what parties made it?
If I remember it well it was as follows:

Liberals (right) - cca. 34%
Social Democrats (left) - cca. 32%
Communists (left) - cca. 15%
Christian democrats (right) - cca 12%
Green Party - cca. 7% (they chose to be in coalition with right wing parties, fuckers)

There voted about 60% (maybe more - ain't sure, but it was record) of competent voters...

the_GoDdEsS
08-05-2006, 04:18 AM
60%? We have 54 something. Who made it into the coalition?

MuddahFukkah
08-05-2006, 04:22 AM
60%? We have 54 something. Who made it into the coalition?
Liberals + Christian Democrats + Green Party = coalition

Unfortunately, they have got only 100 seats out of 200 (don't know what dumbass came with even number of parliamentary seats)...

So, it is kind of draw... People believe there will be new elections in next few weeks or months... (Dammit, there was no 'draw' since 1918 in the czech history... haha...)

EDIT: And what about the elections in Slovakia?... I think there won Social Democrats (SMER)... Right?... But they made some strange coalition with National Party?... Right?...

the Alternate
08-05-2006, 01:50 PM
I think that the "ideal democracy" is impossible. Every country has its own specific. The specific powers that are lobbying their interests. The smaller the country is and the more equal is its population the more possibility of democratic perfectness it has. Such monsters as the US doesn't have a fine democracy, the government is too far from the citizens. Even though, every country should have its own model of the government system. The democracy of Europe or the US is not suitable to, for example, Russia.

MuddahFukkah
08-06-2006, 06:14 AM
Perfect... I think there is kind of consensus that 'perfect' democracy is not possible... I think so too...

Now, let's focus on 2 goals:
1) how to make our society little more democratic?... Really only a bit (not 'fully' democratic)... (i.e. what can be done? what instruments can be used? etc.)

and/or

2) how to change people? (if we don't want to change the system itself or it is simply impossible acc. to us)

the Alternate
08-08-2006, 12:23 AM
To make the society more democratic we can do several things which will have both positive and negative effects:
1.For example, we can "make the people equal" - when nobody can affect the government more or less. But it is impossible. The humanity is lead by such values that are far from altruistic. But these processes will look like in the USSR in 30-ies of 20th century (if it is the big country). Or like in Sweden if it is small. (something maybe not that bad).

2. If we don't want the government be affected from the outside, we should rise the distance between different powers to the government, but is it the democracy itself, when the government is too far from its citizens?

These are some ways I reviewed but it will be great if you post some other ideas. In conclusion, I think that the basis of the democracy itself is contradictoinary to the human being. :(

killboypwrheadjx
08-12-2006, 05:25 PM
the closest thing to a true democracy has only existed in athens in the days of ancient greece where the whole idea started. the citizens would literally go to a meeting once a month and every single one would vote and each vote would be counted on every issue. no electoral bullshit. no government representatives.

obviously, that's not possible anymore with our huge populations. the only way i can think of to make our government more democratic would be to throw away the idea of an executive branch and add a second congress or something that would be in charge of vetoing or approving congress's decisions. i hate the idea of one person or just a couple people sitting around in an office deciding which of congress's decisions get passed or thrown out. too close to facism.

Bryan875
08-22-2006, 11:12 PM
congress can overrule a presidential veto and pass whatever they want, the thing is that currently the congress is supportive of the president..mostly


the closest thing to a true democracy has only existed in athens in the days of ancient greece where the whole idea started. the citizens would literally go to a meeting once a month and every single one would vote and each vote would be counted on every issue. no electoral bullshit. no government representatives.

obviously, that's not possible anymore with our huge populations. the only way i can think of to make our government more democratic would be to throw away the idea of an executive branch and add a second congress or something that would be in charge of vetoing or approving congress's decisions. i hate the idea of one person or just a couple people sitting around in an office deciding which of congress's decisions get passed or thrown out. too close to facism.

Dude From Dudetown
08-23-2006, 06:11 AM
I think that the Electoral College is useless, because we needed it about 300 years ago, when word was slow to go around, but now in modern times we don't need that.

wheelchairman
08-23-2006, 07:36 AM
I think that the Electoral College is useless, because we needed it about 300 years ago, when word was slow to go around, but now in modern times we don't need that.
You think that's why we had it?

I thought the same when I was 13 and retarded. Except I knew it was just an assumption and never would've said it to other people.

Whiplash
08-23-2006, 07:42 AM
Democracy means "People's power"
Demo: people
Cracy: power
(or something like that)
Derives from Greek if I'm not mistaken.

Democracy means '' people's goverment''

Dude From Dudetown
08-23-2006, 10:04 AM
You think that's why we had it?

I thought the same when I was 13 and retarded. Except I knew it was just an assumption and never would've said it to other people.

You may be right, but that's what my History Book and History Teacher said, so were they lying to me?

wheelchairman
08-23-2006, 02:56 PM
You may be right, but that's what my History Book and History Teacher said, so were they lying to me?
No.

Either, you're lying to me.

Or you're history book and history teacher are poorly researched. Any American history teacher should be aware of the American revolution, Thomas Jefferson, and the extreme fucking ideological differences after the revolution, and the debates that ensued about how democracy should be.

So you must be lying to me.

Dude From Dudetown
08-24-2006, 08:02 AM
Nah, I'm not lying, but I now I can't convince you so im just gonna leave.

dplunk
08-27-2006, 12:18 AM
First of all, the framers of the Constitution didn't set it up to be a true 'democracy'. We have a democratic republic, which means we have elected representatives. I think they realized that democracy like they had in Athens just didn't quite work. Guys like Plato and Aristotle thougth democracy was the worst form of government.

We took a lot of our ideas from French Enlightenment guys like Montesque. He wrote about the whole three braches of government thing, which I think for the most part works. I don't think we can really become more democratic. But we do need to become more active. That means staying up to date on current events happening here and around the world. And doing a little thinking for ourselves. Don't just vote straight down the line for one party. Don't believe everything the party tells you. Study the issues and come up with you own ideas. Cause that is just what they are, ideas. No one has the one true answer. If they did, there wouldn't be a debate. Engage with other people and especially your elected representatives. They have to listen to you to keep their job.

The big problem with our whole system is more from the economic side I think. Money runs this country and those few who have it control way too much. The biggest thing that needs to change is our economy, but that is another very long thread.

RickyCrack
08-27-2006, 12:23 AM
I think more snakes need to be on the plane, how about you?

Whiplash
08-27-2006, 11:07 AM
I totally agree.

http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/snakes_on_a_plane/01-fakead.jpg

RickyCrack
08-27-2006, 11:45 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/ricky2tone/kickfag-1.jpg

Little_Miss_1565
08-27-2006, 12:06 PM
RickyCrack, your MS Paint skillz deserve much applauses.

JohnnyNemesis
08-27-2006, 12:40 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/ricky2tone/kickfag-1.jpg

I strongly approve.

Looks to me like he's trying to find a path on our coattails. He's a pathfinder fuck LAWLZ.

ninthlayer
08-27-2006, 04:38 PM
RickyCrack is a bastard and doesn't use the sacred MSPaint.

Little_Miss_1565
08-27-2006, 06:41 PM
RickyCrack is a bastard and doesn't use the sacred MSPaint.

Of course he's a bastard. But then if not MS Paint, then WHAT?!

ninthlayer
08-27-2006, 06:47 PM
Photoshop
:( :( :( :(

noodlesfan
08-27-2006, 07:09 PM
Yeah, the lines aren't blocky enough to be MS Paint.

Sexy Panda
09-19-2006, 10:16 PM
Democracy is overrated. I'm too arrogant to think that two other people know better than I do. Funnily enough I'm not arrogant enough to think I know better than those same other people. Ahh the beauty of being caught up in a libertarian pipe dream.

Technically that's a lie though, I do believe I know better than they do, I just don't think that means anything.

Rocky-girl
09-20-2006, 01:44 PM
It's just an ideal. Like every party. People will never get to that ideal.

Sin Studly
09-20-2006, 11:14 PM
Realpolitik for the win.

Sexy Panda
09-21-2006, 09:53 PM
Bah, realpolitik requires choices just like anything else. By pushing aside so called ideology in favour of a practical outcome, you are merely playing with preferences. It still has a moral basis.