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pOpe
12-19-2004, 07:52 AM
What do you think about that?

This is a real problem in my country, Spain, and I think that un USA too, 'cause there are many people of Mexico or Cuba who go to EEUU... in Spain the problem is that Spain connect Africa and Europe.

Well, on one hand I object the illegal immigration ("object" is the right word? I want to say that I don't agree illegal immigration) because there are many mafias who traffic with people, and get all their money... and in many times many of these poor people dies.

On the other hand I think that, like a spanish reggae group music said, "el mundo es de todos, no queremos fronteras" (the world is ours, the all people, and we don't want frontiers). I think that if one person is starving, or that person don't have a job, this person is allowed to go anywhere he wants to live better, 'cause I think that all people have the same rights, regardless of wether that person has born.

For these reasons, I say yes for immigration, but LEGAL IMMIGRATION, 'cause the mafias has to go to prision, 'cause they kill many lives

PD: sorry about my english... if you don't understand something please tell me and I will try to explain with others words :p
________
Jazz (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Jazz)

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 08:04 AM
It's a real problem in England too. Bloody immigrants. Blair doesn’t seem able to stem the flow, either. :mad:

I don’t mind immigrants if they are prepared to get a job, to work hard, and if they speak bloody English, however a lot of them do not. And, which makes it worse, they have no intention to.

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 08:59 AM
Wow, what a new and original view?

to paraphrase Hornypope.

Let's see, how many immigration topics do we have now?

The Talking Pie
12-19-2004, 09:36 AM
and if they speak bloody English

Do you realise how hard English is to learn? How about we learn someone else's language for once. That would be novel. Maybe we wouldn't be a nation of bigots if we stopped thinking of ourselves as all high and mighty in comparison to everyone else. And "but it's our country" has never cut it as an excuse. There was a kind of nationalism like that once in Germany you know...

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 10:15 AM
Do you realise how hard English is to learn? How about we learn someone else's language for once. That would be novel. Maybe we wouldn't be a nation of bigots if we stopped thinking of ourselves as all high and mighty in comparison to everyone else. And "but it's our country" has never cut it as an excuse. There was a kind of nationalism like that once in Germany you know...
I could kiss you. If I wasn't horribly horribly insecure with my sexuality.

sKratch
12-19-2004, 10:26 AM
Ah yes. The first thing I'm going to consider if I want to move is where I can go and piss off the most people by refusing to speak their language. That's what every immigrant does.

[ah ha, but you see? If an American really did do that, it would be viewed as normal American arrogance. I'm so efficient... made multiple points with my sarcasm. Someone touch me. Please. This would be weirder if it wasn't in brackets, because that makes it less weird for some reason.]

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 01:38 PM
Do you realise how hard English is to learn? How about we learn someone else's language for once. That would be novel.

I am fluent in both ancient Greek and Latin, true I am utterly hopeless at German (which i had to do for GCSE) but I learnt someone else's languages. If i can, they sure as hell can, plus they have people they can talk to.

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 01:51 PM
I am fluent in both ancient Greek and Latin, true I am utterly hopeless at German (which i had to do for GCSE) but I learnt someone else's languages. If i can, they sure as hell can, plus they have people they can talk to.
Let me ask you something, how many immigrants have you met, who've lived in England for years (unless of course you are saying that everyone should be fluent in England in the first few weeks), that couldn't communicate in English?

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 01:58 PM
Not too many, but then again I don't go into 'da hood' too often. The people who cannot communicate are the ones who will not integrate with the rest of society either; they have their own communities where crime is rife and they don’t care shit about the rest of the country. As long as these people can communicate ‘dole’ they’re happy. :mad:

Or mayhap, they learn English before they come?

Venezuelan_Nightmare
12-19-2004, 02:02 PM
In venezuela we got the same problems but here there`s not are laws or something about it.
SO, we have many cubans here and all the day a people from another country die and noone`s do something about it`s sad... but true.

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 02:06 PM
Not too many, but then again I don't go into 'da hood' too often. The people who cannot communicate are the ones who will not integrate with the rest of society either; they have their own communities where crime is rife and they don’t care shit about the rest of the country. As long as these people can communicate ‘dole’ they’re happy. :mad:

Or mayhap, they learn English before they come?
Your view is backwards.

Perhaps if your economy didn't force the poor to live in the destitute neighborhoods, there would be better integration. But your government only needs their labor force, they will remain un-integrated and poor, since the system needs them that way. The fault is theirs.

And I am fairly certain the majority speak English. And really it's a ridiculous view to think that many immigrants come to live off of the welfare system. I've met more Danes who do that than immigrants, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same in England.

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 02:20 PM
And really it's a ridiculous view to think that many immigrants come to live off of the welfare system. I've met more Danes who do that than immigrants, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same in England.

That they do, they come for the welfare and also to leach from the NHS. Example; a man came over to visit daughter, whilst here he also had a heart operation at the cost of around £10,000 to the English taxpayer, ie me.

Another thing, the neighbourhoods become destitute once the immigrants move in; they graffiti them and sell drugs initiating the decline of these neighbourhoods.

[QUOTE=wheelchairman] I am fairly certain the majority speak English./QUOTE]

The title of the forum is illegal immigrants; those are the main problem, a lot of them do not speak English, they sneak in and join a neighbourhood, never to be seen again until they manage to get onto the dole.

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 02:23 PM
Illegal immigrants aren't getting heart surgery.

You do realize that there are far better welfare systems in the world than England's? Why they would choose England would make no sense. That is merely one example, it is not a common mindset among the immigrant community.

Oh and you do realize that 10,000 pounds out of the pocket of the English taxpayer, is not even noticeable.

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 02:31 PM
Illegal immigrants are indeed getting operations on the NHS, I think the Times called it ‘health tourism’. I realize that England isn’t the best place to leach, however, it is relatively easy to do here, so that’s why people come here.

I do indeed notice that the money is hardly noticeable, however when it happens more than once the money will build up. What's more, is that I, personally, would prefer the money going somewhere else.

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 02:35 PM
If it happened a thousand times, you might feel, what... a pound?

I think there are different areas of your government's budget that deserves less money, such as the military.

And magazines always make huge exposés about inferior problems.

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 02:44 PM
If it happened a thousand times, you might feel, what... a pound?

I think there are different areas of your government's budget that deserves less money, such as the military.

And magazines always make huge exposés about inferior problems.

If it was your government it wouldn't piss you off then? And anyway, every pound counts.

The military?! You do realize that when Mr. Tony Blair sent our lovely soldiers to war they went with shortages of equipment? Basic equipment like body armour, for example! Perhaps some of the budget is directed at terrible sources, however, the military is one area that requires more, in my opinion anyway. Another area would be museums, which had funding cut this year by a ridiculous amount, which is another reason I get annoyed – I like museums; the money used by ‘health tourism’ could go to them instead, or even our drastically under funded schools and universities.

The Times isn’t a magazine.

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 02:51 PM
If it was your government it wouldn't piss you off then? And anyway, every pound counts.

The military?! You do realize that when Mr. Tony Blair sent our lovely soldiers to war they went with shortages of equipment? Basic equipment like body armour, for example! Perhaps some of the budget is directed at terrible sources, however, the military is one area that requires more, in my opinion anyway. Another area would be museums, which had funding cut this year by a ridiculous amount, which is another reason I get annoyed – I like museums; the money used by ‘health tourism’ could go to them instead, or even our drastically under funded schools and universities.

The Times isn’t a magazine.
1. If it was my government I wouldn't be worried about the actions of a handful of individuals.

2. Yes the military, Britain shouldn't even be in Iraq, let alone any other place (thinking of the northern part of the Republic of Ireland right now.)

3. Was thinking of Time. The same still applies.

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 03:00 PM
1. If it was my government I wouldn't be worried about the actions of a handful of individuals.

2. Yes the military, Britain shouldn't even be in Iraq, let alone any other place (thinking of the northern part of the Republic of Ireland right now.)

3. Was thinking of Time. The same still applies.

1. I am concerned; I enjoy getting involved especially when it’s to do with me or my money. I’m not the same as most of the low-life scum who inhabit this little island and don’t care what’s going on around them or the state of affairs within the world, and merely care what they can watch on their ‘idiot box’ that night.

2. No, Britain shouldn't be in Iraq, however, since Tony Blair has led us there (along with the guiding hand of our great ally, Bush), the men there should at least get decent equipment, and as much financial assistance as possible. Ireland is, prehaps, our fault however.

3. The Times and Time magazine are very different, for one thing Time magazine isn't worth the paper it's printed on.


Is your first language English? If not, you're very good. And I'm quite enjoying debating with someone who doesn't appear to be a complete retard.

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 03:10 PM
1. Well personally,I think the main problems with lack of money can be handled by harder taxes on the multi-national companies, working on limiting the corruption of politicians and re-organization of money from places not needed (like the military). As for middle easterners sucking off the system. England has done quite a lot to fuck the middle east, and very little to fix it. I have no problem with it.

2. The British troops should get the hell out of Iraq, they don't need more help there.

3. Well we agree on Time.

Nope, I was raised in America. I'm an example of what one could call, an American who is not a complete moron, and they are not that rare actually, they just have better things to do than argue online.

And I'm glad you enjoy debating with me, flattery gets you everywhere with my enormous ego.

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 03:23 PM
1. Well personally,I think the main problems with lack of money can be handled by harder taxes on the multi-national companies, working on limiting the corruption of politicians and re-organization of money from places not needed (like the military). As for middle easterners sucking off the system. England has done quite a lot to fuck the middle east, and very little to fix it. I have no problem with it.

2. The British troops should get the hell out of Iraq, they don't need more help there.

1. We are but a small island (Britain has something like twice as many people per square km as France). The politicians don't seem too corrupt, well nothing springs to mind, but i agree that money could definitely be better organized and put where it's needed. The main problem appears to be the Labour party, they promise but we never see results, and plough money into useless schemes, which benefit minorities. Their degree of ‘political correctness’ is laughable.

2. Just one thing stands in the way; a little man who recently ate too many doughnuts and once almost choked on a pretzel. Almost every one in England disagrees with the 'war on terror' and many believe Blair should resign. However, since they are there, and Blair refuses to jeopardize his special relationship with Bush, they should receive the correct equipment and supplies. If it was, for example, my brother out there, there would be nothing i would want more than for him to receive adequate resources.

Damn you, you have made me agree (kind of) with your view of England, or at least reminded me of it's shortcomings (namely Tony Blair).

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 03:29 PM
Perhaps corruption isn't a problem. I generally think politicians have too much money. I agree, The Labour Party is quite awful. I despise New Labour, I much preferred Old Labour. heh

And as long as my country is (and your country) is fighting an illegal war, and oppressing a nation. I want everything to be in favor of the Iraqi's. Certainly don't need a higher civilian death count.

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 03:36 PM
Ah, the American who 'is not a complete moron'.

Politicians definitely have too much money, just the other day i was debating with a friend why politicians are in politics - money and power, what men want, in politics this is what you get. Don't blame me for new Labour, I would've voted Conservative and hence William Hague.

Have you noticed that when a bomb goes off they always record the exact number of allied deaths, eg. '12 Americans were killed when a car bomb exploded near Baghdad.' However, the exact number of civilian deaths is rarely stated?

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 03:39 PM
Yeah, civilian deaths generally make the apathetic masses back in the imperialist countries start caring. Funny how that works. It seems like before every war, everyone just believes the government when they say there will be no civilian death. And every time they are tricked.

As for politics, I can't decide what's worse, New Labour or the Conservatives.

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 03:48 PM
Yes the civilian deaths thing is actually quite sad. I don't think they actually know how many civilians have been killed but the exact number of allied troops is known, methinks we're on about 76 Brits. Iraqi's were dying before the war, apparently according to Blair, and that was the reason we intervened, if they now disclosed the civilian deaths there would be public outrage because it’s probably more than before.

Conservative is the lesser of the two evils, although they are both pretty bad.

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 03:55 PM
Well I don't think anyone knows the exact amount of American deaths. I assume that the numbers for dead Americans are a few months behind than reality.
What's worse is the wounded number, because people generally assume wounded is just a flesh wound or something, but wounded is always far far worse.

I believe the Iraqi death count has passed 10,000.

I have a difficult time believing that conservatives are ever the lesser of two evils.

At least Tony Blair's party voted on re-nationalising the railroads, despite the fact that Blair's government won't do that. Sometimes you almost gotta believe that Blair is the best conservative minister in history.

Noodles is gay
12-19-2004, 04:07 PM
I was going to point out that the Iraqi deaths were probably around 10,000 but I couldn't imagine it could actually be that big, merely thought I must be exaggerating the situation - guess the media have created a good illusion! The comment on wounds reminded me of the most horrendous picture I saw earlier today, it had an American soldier lying dead in a pool of his own blood in a dirty, abandoned, rubbish filled house, it really was quite terrible. If they showed images similar to that one to the masses there would be absolute outrage, hell there are probably even worse ones they could use, and I believe the war would have end.

The state of the railroads is really quite appalling, there doesn’t seem to have been any change at all. I think the companies are being fined for being late but it doesn’t have any effect. Thatcher was the best conservative prime minister, Blair seems to have made a complete hash of everything.

wheelchairman
12-19-2004, 04:53 PM
There are worse pictures, I've seen one of dead kids on a street, and a parked American tank with US soldiers having a smoke. Really was just awful to see.

I've ignored what the mainstream media has said about Iraq for a while now. I believe the situation is in complete chaos. Americans can't do ordinary patrols anymore because of the large numbers of insurgents, the Americans no longer administer several areas inside Iraq including parts of Baghdad. The resistance gains more and more every day, just because the Americans are so obviously an oppressing force.

It's almost enough to make me despise every person who voted for Bush with a passion. But then again, they can't possibly know, what with the crappy media and all.

I've never been on a train in England. Although I must say, Heathrow Airport is the worst airport in the world. What a horrible first impression of England. *feels dirty*

sKratch
12-19-2004, 07:51 PM
www.iraqbodycount.net

Civilian deaths range between 14876 and 17072.

plastic_letterz
12-20-2004, 08:19 PM
I dont really know what to think of it. I can see it from two points of view. Some are trying to make a decent living and provide a good life for their kids but at the same time I can see how its bad. I know alot of my mom's friends are illegal ( luckily, my mom got her citizenship in early december).