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Mota Boy
08-26-2006, 07:54 AM
What, in your opinion, were the determining factors in our decision to nuke the Japanese in World War II, and was this decision justified? Personally, I think we were justified in dropping both bombs over civilian targets, but I want y'all to go first.

Whiplash
08-26-2006, 08:33 AM
It was the quickest way to stop the war, America just had to flex it muscles( in this case drop some nukes) and show the world that they are the strongest.
The japanese realized this after the bombing.

RickyCrack
08-26-2006, 09:09 AM
It was mostly to piss in Russia's eye.

nieh
08-26-2006, 09:14 AM
I don't think their primary interest was in stopping the war as quickly as possible (though wouldn't be surprised if that crossed their minds) I think their primary interest was in scaring the fuck out of the rest of the world by showing that if you attack us we DEVASTATE you with our new bombs.

That and I think we just wanted to wipe out as many asians as possible.

RickyCrack
08-26-2006, 09:19 AM
Truman always did what he felt was right and always had a truthful validation for it. Definitely one of my favorite presidents.

Dude From Dudetown
08-26-2006, 09:21 AM
Also, because Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.

RickyCrack
08-26-2006, 09:24 AM
Also, because Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.

Maaaaaaaybe that's why we declared war on Japan rather than dropping the bomb on them. Just a hunch.

Dude From Dudetown
08-26-2006, 09:50 AM
That's why we dropped the bomb on them.

0r4ng3
08-26-2006, 09:51 AM
No, we declared war because of the Pearl Harbor bombing.

Later on in the war, there was a choice. Either invade the two cities, costing many American soldiers, or drop the bombs.

nieh
08-26-2006, 02:37 PM
Since I didn't fully answer the question before, I do think it was justifiable for us to use the bombs against them but I don't like that we did it over civilian cities.

wheelchairman
08-26-2006, 03:21 PM
I'm going to ignore the previous posts because I've had a half bottle of wine. (omg so much?)

Anyways, we bombed Japan for a number of reasons. Saving American lives, not being one of them. There were numerous instances where the Japanese offered to surrender before we bombed them (the only condition was keeping the Emperor, which we did anyways.)

The cold war was starting though, and negotiations over Berlin and such were starting. That is perhaps one explanation, although I doubt the President was that callous. It may likely be just a show of force, I don't really care.

We could bomb them, and we did, and we gained from it. And besides, Japan should be bombed again, they are a disgusting culture again. Panties in a vending machine? The barely legal child porn (or the illegal.) Yes another bomb.

Preocupado
08-26-2006, 07:30 PM
I'm never able to think about this rationally.

Ninty Man
08-26-2006, 09:24 PM
I'm going to ignore the previous posts because I've had a half bottle of wine. (omg so much?)

Anyways, we bombed Japan for a number of reasons. Saving American lives, not being one of them. There were numerous instances where the Japanese offered to surrender before we bombed them (the only condition was keeping the Emperor, which we did anyways.)

The cold war was starting though, and negotiations over Berlin and such were starting. That is perhaps one explanation, although I doubt the President was that callous. It may likely be just a show of force, I don't really care.

We could bomb them, and we did, and we gained from it. And besides, Japan should be bombed again, they are a disgusting culture again. Panties in a vending machine? The barely legal child porn (or the illegal.) Yes another bomb.


Japan should be bombed again


You're an idiot...

RickyCrack
08-26-2006, 09:53 PM
Anime is a bigger crime against humanity than anything Japan did during ww2

All About Eve
08-26-2006, 11:33 PM
Truman just said, "I've had it with these motherfucking Asians in this motherfucking war" and set them up the bomb.

Anyways, I think it was mostly that they wanted to show (to all the axis powers) that the war was going to end, and we would go at any lenghts to do that, and also to show power to Russia and other countries.

wheelchairman
08-27-2006, 02:29 AM
Japan should be bombed again


You're an idiot...

This quote will be counter-acted by this quote:


Anime is a bigger crime against humanity than anything Japan did during ww2


check and mate.

AAE- I think all the other axis powers had surrendered by this point. Unless you mean like Spain or something, that would be a bit bizarre though.

Mota Boy
08-27-2006, 03:22 AM
There were numerous instances where the Japanese offered to surrender before we bombed them (the only condition was keeping the Emperor, which we did anyways.)
I've studied both American and Japanese history in my time in college. Both classes spent a good amount of time on the end of WWII, but neither of them mentioned this aspect. I'd appreciate it if you'd cite sources so I could better respond to them.

wheelchairman
08-27-2006, 03:32 AM
Just a second. I had them in a word file which I've unfortunately since reformatted.

wheelchairman
08-27-2006, 03:44 AM
I couldn't find the citations directly. But there are notes online, from the book I got them from that more or less covers it.

The Decision to use the Atom Bomb and the Architecture of an American Myth by Gar Alperovitz (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/hamby.htm)

The notes on the first chapter deal directly with the offers to surrender on the American side. The actual quotations total of quotations fill a few pages on a word document. But my work is erased :(

The guide seems to be a good summary of Alperovitz's work, much less work than reading the actual book.

Sin Studly
08-27-2006, 06:11 AM
We should have Holocausted them afterwards.

JohnnyNemesis
08-27-2006, 09:33 AM
Truman just said, "I've had it with these motherfucking Asians in this motherfucking war"

This post went from an A for effort but C+ for humor...


and set them up the bomb.

...to a complete A+ all around. Win win win.


The Decision to use the Atom Bomb and the Architecture of an American Myth by Gar Alperovitz

This is news to me, for sure...kind of changes how I think about the whole thing.

HornyPope
08-27-2006, 09:34 AM
Quick reply.

Mostly the bombing was meant to scare off the Russian who were considering pushing past Berlin. If only they knew how little of an arsenal you disposed and that the next bombs wouldn't be availible in I think four months (and the ones after in a year), they probably would have "taken the hit" and pushed off Allied armies from Europe who were impotent compared to the vast and mighty Red army.

The Japans wouldn't accept unconditional surrender, they needed a guarantee that the emperor wouldn't be harm.

The Japanese would have colapsed want or don't want shortly after their posessions in China were overun by Soviets, and the islands cut off by American pacific navy. And pummeled by bombings at that.

Ninty Man
08-27-2006, 09:31 PM
This quote will be counter-acted by this quote:




check and mate.

AAE- I think all the other axis powers had surrendered by this point. Unless you mean like Spain or something, that would be a bit bizarre though.


For the anime?? What about bombing US for their racism, pollution, imperialism and other stuff?

wheelchairman
08-27-2006, 11:32 PM
For the anime?? What about bombing US for their racism, pollution, imperialism and other stuff?
You're criticising the US for pollution and you come from Mexico City, wtf?

coke_a_holic
08-27-2006, 11:49 PM
For the anime?? What about bombing US for their racism, pollution, imperialism and other stuff?
Yes because the US is obviously the root of all of that's evil and should be bombed for everything that's been done in the past.

what the fuck?

Also: Anime is reason enough for genocide.

Sin Studly
08-28-2006, 04:18 AM
Russia has the right idea.

http://www.crisscross.com/jp/news/381840/all

Shoot the fucking nips.

edit ; America should sue the Japanese Government for the cost of the Atomic Bombs they dropped on them. Wartime reparations.

Ninty Man
08-28-2006, 02:52 PM
You're criticising the US for pollution and you come from Mexico City, wtf?


I'm from Mexico city, not come

And anyway... the pollution it's a global problem STARTING ON US

Genocide for anime??? What about genocide for Power Rangers?

wheelchairman
08-28-2006, 02:56 PM
I'm from Mexico city, not come

And anyway... the pollution it's a global problem STARTING ON US

Genocide for anime??? What about genocide for Power Rangers?
Power Rangers was alright. Anime is wrong. Hentai is wrong, all their perversions are wrong. Panties in vending machines is wrong. The lolita complex is wrong. Bomb them!

Ninty Man
08-28-2006, 06:46 PM
Power Rangers was alright. Anime is wrong. Hentai is wrong, all their perversions are wrong. Panties in vending machines is wrong. The lolita complex is wrong. Bomb them!


MMM... the hamburgers and hot dogs are wrong. I just can't get why you wanna kill other people'

Thomas
08-28-2006, 09:07 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the US made several offers for surrender, which they changed every time. Japan wouldn't accept and as a result, they dropped the bombs.

Anyhoo, I know that we dropped the bombs to basically make everyone else in the world shit their pants from fear, but I am pretty sure that they wanted no more American deaths, too. We had alreday lost many, and we just didn't want anymore deaths. And Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both HUGE military targets, so no one bring up the fact that they just attacked civilians and not the military because that is bullshit. Hell, even the women in the city were driving the soldiers around in busses if they couldn't fight.




btw, anime is just cause for another Fat Boy.

Sin Studly
08-28-2006, 09:22 PM
I just can't get why you wanna kill other people'

The Japanese aren't people, idiot.

Ninty Man
08-29-2006, 06:22 PM
The Japanese aren't people, idiot.


Sure they are, jackass

Sin Studly
08-29-2006, 09:14 PM
Right, and I suppose blacks and Mexicans are people too?

Not Ozymandias
08-29-2006, 11:28 PM
Is this some online form of Candid Camera? Was America right to slaughter tens of thousands of civilians? Are you fucking kidding me?

Thomas
08-30-2006, 08:57 PM
Dude, whether you like it or not, both cities were very very VERY big military targets. Besides, we gave them PLENTY of warning and chances to surrender, but they let pride get ahead of human life. Hell, those people use their own men as weapons (kamikaze). They don't value their won lives, why should we spend more American lives fighting them when they are just going to kill themselves anyway?

jacknife737
08-30-2006, 09:12 PM
, both cities were very very VERY big military targets. Besides, we gave them PLENTY of warning and chances to surrender, but

THat was irrelevant since Japan was basically defeated at that point during the war, even Eisenhower thought it was a terrible and unnecessary course of action.


"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm

Ninty Man
08-30-2006, 09:29 PM
Right, and I suppose blacks and Mexicans are people too?

Yes... and apes like you have certain protection from Peta, or Green Peace

Thomas
08-30-2006, 10:18 PM
THat was irrelevant since Japan was basically defeated at that point during the war, even Eisenhower thought it was a terrible and unnecessary course of action.



http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm

But they REFUSED to surrender! Also, they were in the middle of planning a full-scale invasion of the US and just imagine what the reaction would have been if they reached US soil.

RickyCrack
08-30-2006, 10:54 PM
You're all forgetting the point that anime sucks ass. If we dropped more bombs on Japan I wouldn't have to deal with people dressing up as a fucking half-man half-dog in a red jump suit around where I live.

Thomas
08-30-2006, 11:05 PM
You're all forgetting the point that anime sucks ass. If we dropped more bombs on Japan I wouldn't have to deal with people dressing up as a fucking half-man half-dog in a red jump suit around where I live.

Trust me, I haven't forgotten.

jacknife737
08-30-2006, 11:37 PM
But they REFUSED to surrender! Also, they were in the middle of planning a full-scale invasion of the US and just imagine what the reaction would have been if they reached US soil.


Thatís not true, there are several sources that point out that Japan was attempting to surrender. Invasion of the US? Uh, that seems unlikely considering that the Japanese military was virtually DEFEATED.

As well A naval blockade would have eventually forced Japan to surrender.

RickyCrack
08-30-2006, 11:39 PM
Thatís not true, there are several sources that point out that Japan was attempting to surrender. Invasion of the US? Uh, that seems unlikely considering that the Japanese military was virtually DEFEATED.

They were about to summon Ultra Man, and that nigger is nobody to be threatened.

wheelchairman
08-31-2006, 03:12 AM
Thomas, they offered to surrender numerous times as per my post. The only condition was keeping the emperor (which we allowed anyways.)

Tigger Army
08-31-2006, 04:17 AM
(..) and just imagine what the reaction would have been if they reached US soil.

A yes three bold middle aged midgets land alive on huntington beach, the rest of the military was either already dead or died while trying to invade.

they take their guns and slowly start to move land inward where the locals would slaughter them with broom sticks and frying pans. One of the Japanese brute forces attempts to shoot but his gun refused because of the seawater in his gun. The next one manages to shoot two bullets but lacks the capacity of aiming. The last one manages to shoot two or three persons before being heavily mutilated with a teaspoon.


(..) They don't value their own lives
Allow me to correct your typo. Besides that: this statement must be one of the most dumb things I've read in a long time. Well it wouldn't be from your heavily coca cola sponsored way of seeing things in life but if you can't even understand that other cultures "may" have a different view on things then you have...


(Still the japanese should die for their overall perverted behaviour)

Sin Studly
08-31-2006, 04:31 AM
The Japs valued their lives just as much as I value them.

JoY
08-31-2006, 04:44 AM
I haven't heard much about Japan being willing to surrender around that time, but I do know Japan ain't keen on anything that surrenders & would rather die fighting than lose & live to see it. their culture supposedly has a major sense of pride & without pride, you're unworthy of a human status. (so I've read)

Tigger Army
08-31-2006, 04:44 AM
well then I'm sure you can work something out. Try to throw in some 'innocent' blacks, jews and/or muslims into the deal

Ninty Man
08-31-2006, 05:12 PM
I haven't heard much about Japan being willing to surrender around that time, but I do know Japan ain't keen on anything that surrenders & would rather die fighting than lose & live to see it. their culture supposedly has a major sense of pride & without pride, you're unworthy of a human status. (so I've read)


It's more the Samurai code thing, you know?

Thomas
08-31-2006, 06:18 PM
It is possible that i'm mistaken, but I do remember reading recently that the Japanese turned down several offers for surrender. I do remember the part about keeping the emporer and I recall that being one of the revised surrender offers.

And as for the invasion, I remember it supposedly being Japan's final plan/last ditch effort to fight against America.


Allow me to correct your typo. Besides that: this statement must be one of the most dumb things I've read in a long time. Well it wouldn't be from your heavily coca cola sponsored way of seeing things in life but if you can't even understand that other cultures "may" have a different view on things then you have...

Oh yes. Because I live in America, it automatically means that I think everything we do is both the right way and only way to do things. Being an American automatically makes me an MTV worshiping fat headed ultra conservative Christian who doesn't realize that there are different cultures in the world.

And as for having different views, it is clearly obvious that they think it is okay to sacrifice their own soldiers who blindly kill themselves on missions that are usually unsuccessful. Even you can't say that their lack of vlaue for human life is right.

jacknife737
08-31-2006, 11:36 PM
And as for the invasion, I remember it supposedly being Japan's final plan/last ditch effort to fight against America.


That would have been virtually impossible, as the Japanese Navy had been decimated. After the battle of the Philippine Sea, Japan could never have invaded the U.S.

Sin Studly
09-01-2006, 12:51 AM
I personally think the nukes were to convince Japan to surrender before the Slavic Horde moved down from Kamchatka and the US had to share Japan as well as Germany. Tokyo Wall-uh

wheelchairman
09-01-2006, 02:48 AM
I just realized I linked the wrong document.
http://www.doug-long.com/guide1.htm

Thomas. The Japanese Emperor offered surrender numerous times. So whatever your perception of Japanese culture. They do surrender thus making your "guesswork" as to how they work and think, utterly pointless.

thomda11
09-02-2006, 12:40 AM
Revisionism at its finest. Japan refused to surrender on our terms.

Btw, I wanted to state that there was no japanese plan to invade the US. You're probably think of the US plan to invade Japan's mainland (ie Tokyo), which would have been the death of hundreds of thousand americans.

Thomas
09-02-2006, 01:38 AM
Revisionism at its finest. Japan refused to surrender on our terms.

Btw, I wanted to state that there was no japanese plan to invade the US. You're probably think of the US plan to invade Japan's mainland (ie Tokyo), which would have been the death of hundreds of thousand americans.

That must be what I was thinking of, then. I knew that they had refused surrender, but I was probably mistaken here.

I might have also been mistaken about the invasion and where it was, but I am almost certain that they were planning on invading an allied force somewhere.

Then again, I might just be completely full of shit without even realizing it.

wheelchairman
09-02-2006, 08:23 AM
Revisionism at its finest. Japan refused to surrender on our terms.


Japan refused to surrender unconditionally, that is not the same thing. Their *only* condition was to keep their emperor. Which we allowed anyways. You can throw whatever names at it you want, still doesn't change anything.

Ninty Man
09-02-2006, 07:01 PM
I just have a doubt:

Why everyone here says WE hit Japan, Japan don't surrender on OUR conditions...

You don't live that period

Tigger Army
09-03-2006, 02:31 AM
I just have a doubt:

Why everyone here says WE hit Japan, Japan don't surrender on OUR conditions...

You don't live that period

Yeah but it's nice to identify oneself with achievements from the past especially when one hasn't achieved anything in his/her own life.

wheelchairman
09-03-2006, 04:50 AM
Because I'm an American, and so were those who did it. It would be strange to say "when they hit Japan" if they are from the same country.

Also it's a song by the Presidents of the United States of America, which is where I think Mota took it from.

Paint_It_Black
09-03-2006, 07:27 AM
Big shiny jet plane in the sky
Please drop us off as we go by
We're an American band
And everything is rockin' out of control
When we hit Japan

Sin Studly
09-03-2006, 07:37 AM
Yeah but it's nice to identify oneself with achievements from the past especially when one hasn't achieved anything in his/her own life.

If you came from a country that ever achieved anything in its history, ever, you'd understand.

Ninty Man
09-03-2006, 09:57 PM
Because I'm an American, and so were those who did it. It would be strange to say "when they hit Japan" if they are from the same country.

Also it's a song by the Presidents of the United States of America, which is where I think Mota took it from.



MMM... right :rolleyes:

Tigger Army
09-04-2006, 02:19 AM
*insert lame respons about the history of the Netherlands here*

Paint_It_Black
09-04-2006, 02:28 AM
*insert lame respons about the history of the Netherlands here*

It's times like this I wish I was a moderator.

Tigger Army
09-04-2006, 02:40 AM
It's times like this I wish I was a moderator.

Sadly they didn't think your existence wasn't important enough to grant you the power of moderation anywhere on this forum... :( *hugs*

Paint_It_Black
09-04-2006, 02:56 AM
Hahaha, very true. Thanks for the hug.

But, uh, to save face a little...I was absent from the bbs when the moderator election was done.

Tigger Army
09-04-2006, 03:08 AM
Fair enough, so was I. I'm surprised by the election of some of the moderators though. Ah well. :)

Paint_It_Black
09-04-2006, 04:39 AM
They all seem to do a good job, when they're actually here.

JoY
09-04-2006, 04:37 PM
moderators are awesome. back to topic.

Mota Boy
09-04-2006, 09:04 PM
Alright. I have an awful habit of starting topics and then not posting in them, so I'll try and break the habit.


Japan refused to surrender unconditionally, that is not the same thing. Their *only* condition was to keep their emperor. Which we allowed anyways. You can throw whatever names at it you want, still doesn't change anything.
Personally, I don't think that keeping the emperor was a feint and you can't blame America for not giving in to it. The terms of the surrender were worked out in the Potsdam conference between America, Britain and China based upon the Allies policy towards German surrender. It's not like it was pure US vindictiveness. The Japanese army was well aware of this and used the emperor as an excuse not to surrender.

You've mentioned that the emperor tried multiple times to surrender, but he was in no position to do so. At that point the emperor was a mere pawn of the army - a tool used to keep the Japanese (who, at the time, viewed him as a man-god) fanatically devoted to their country. What I find most interesting is that you don't mention how the actual surrender came about. After two atomic blasts on Japanese soil and god knows how many more down the pipeline, the Japanese army still refused to surrender, instead wishing to fight to the death. The emperor had to take matters into his own hands. When the army heard about it, a fanatical group of generals tried to assassinate the emperor (remember, the man for whom they were supposedly refusing to surrender) in order to stop him. Instead, he managed to make it to the national radio ahead of them and announce the surrender on the radio himself, because the army refused to do it. And this was a huge fucking deal - this was the first time the emperor's voice was ever heard on the radio. It's not like he made weekly addressed - he was breaking decades, if not centuries of protocal by directly addressing the public.

The Japanese were fantatics. Look at the statistics from Iwo Jima - those crazy bastards fought to the death. The Japanese army was training women and children to fight off invading Americans with sharpened bamboo poles. It would've been a bloodbath. I honestly believe that the nuclear weapons and resulting surrender actually saved Japanese lives when compared to the alternative.


Also it's a song by the Presidents of the United States of America, which is where I think Mota took it from.
Bingo.

Sin Studly
09-04-2006, 10:21 PM
I would have liked to see what would happen if America sat back and let the Russians take care of it.

I'm guessing there would no longer be a Japanese race, which would mean no anime-porn and panties in vending machines.

Tigger Army
09-07-2006, 12:33 PM
I would have liked to see what would happen if America sat back and let the Russians take care of it.

I'm guessing there would no longer be a Japanese race, which would mean no anime-porn and panties in vending machines.

in short: heaven on earth and world peace

FLeTch
09-23-2006, 02:07 PM
When Americans hit the Japan it was frustrating for themselves
however they don't care civils which are innocent
and also they didn't even think of unborn babies which were completely innocent

ninthlayer
09-23-2006, 05:08 PM
Terrorist Islamics like to use bold.

Why did the US drop the bombs? Because John Wayne died at the end of the Sands of Iwo Jima.

BREAK
09-23-2006, 05:12 PM
and also they didn't even think of unborn babies which were completely innocent

Something tells me Fletch has some kind of opinion on abortions.

Plz share, I think it's worth investigating.

Mota Boy
09-23-2006, 05:18 PM
also they didn't even think of unborn babies which were completely innocent

As opposed to the born babies, who were all dirty yellow scum.

ninthlayer
09-23-2006, 08:20 PM
Uh, the bible clearly states that we're born into sin.

Mota Boy
09-23-2006, 09:31 PM
Yeah, and the closest the Bible gets to talking about abortion is Exodus 21:22 which claims that if two men are fighting and they accidentally cause a woman to miscarry, the man who caused the "death" of the fetus should have to pay a fine determined by the woman's husband. The Bible, a book that also tells people not to sit on a chair after a menstrating woman has sat there, does not mention any other rules regarding abortion. Essentially, nobody gave a fuck about it in those days, but that hasn't prevented Christians from somehow making it their number one issue.

Honestly, the extent to which the Bible has been perverted in modern times for political purposes makes me want to smack a [religiously intolerant] bitch. Same with the Qu'ran.

Killer Dwarf
09-26-2006, 01:01 PM
HUH?
The bible talks alot more about unborn children than you know about. I don't even go to church anymore, but I remember a passage that said something about... "I knew you when you were in the womb".

wheelchairman
09-26-2006, 02:56 PM
oooh wow. That's shocking.

FLeTch
09-27-2006, 08:58 AM
As opposed to the born babies, who were all dirty yellow scum.

:mad:
this is racist man
you don't have to like them
but at least you should be respectful to the every human being in the world
there is no point you insult ppl because of their skin color,religion,beliefs etc.

FLeTch
09-27-2006, 09:16 AM
Terrorist Islamics like to use bold.

Why did the US drop the bombs? Because John Wayne died at the end of the Sands of Iwo Jima.

there is no point to be a racist
how can you think Muslims are terrorist
it is nonsense as saying Christians are all terrorists

unborn babies died in Japan because of your atomic bomb
sorry but i would ask this to you if you can reply(i bet you can't)
IS YOUR COUNTRY GOD TO DECIDE WHO WILL LIVE IN ENDLESS PAIN

so stop being nationalist
and think about that
suppose that you born without legs or just with 1 arm because of a Japan atomic bomb
i wonder then would you still talk about your dead heroes

Mota Boy
09-27-2006, 04:05 PM
HUH?
The bible talks alot more about unborn children than you know about. I don't even go to church anymore, but I remember a passage that said something about... "I knew you when you were in the womb".

Yeah, and I don't go to church any more either, but I remember a passage that says something about "Anyone who regurgitates a half-remembered Bible quote out of context so that it can't be properly refuted should be beaten about the face and neck for being an insipid dolt." Something like that. Now dig up the proper passage and present it unto me so that I can point out how, exactly, you are wrong, or stay the hell out of this debate.


unborn babies died in Japan because of your atomic bomb
sorry but i would ask this to you if you can reply(i bet you can't)
IS YOUR COUNTRY GOD TO DECIDE WHO WILL LIVE IN ENDLESS PAIN?

1) Read my previous post on the matter. Millions more people would have died had we not dropped the bombs. Yes, including unborn babies (why the hell are you so hung up on fetii?)

2) Yes.

FLeTch
09-28-2006, 06:24 AM
Yeah, and I don't go to church any more either, but I remember a passage that says something about "Anyone who regurgitates a half-remembered Bible quote out of context so that it can't be properly refuted should be beaten about the face and neck for being an insipid dolt." Something like that. Now dig up the proper passage and present it unto me so that I can point out how, exactly, you are wrong, or stay the hell out of this debate.



1) Read my previous post on the matter. Millions more people would have died had we not dropped the bombs. Yes, including unborn babies (why the hell are you so hung up on fetii?)

2) Yes.

it is not right
why America bombed Japan despite they were much more closer to victory.:confused:

no one can say it was right it was a tragedy.NOT you but some of users still making racism.

Killer Dwarf
09-28-2006, 08:05 AM
it is not right
why America bombed Japan despite they were much more closer to victory.:confused:

no one can say it was right it was a tragedy.NOT you but some of users still making racism.

There are not very many rules in LOVE and WAR. Plus Japan was developing a nuclear bomb too.

Killer Dwarf
09-28-2006, 08:08 AM
Yeah, and I don't go to church any more either, but I remember a passage that says something about "Anyone who regurgitates a half-remembered Bible quote out of context so that it can't be properly refuted should be beaten about the face and neck for being an insipid dolt." Something like that. Now dig up the proper passage and present it unto me so that I can point out how, exactly, you are wrong, or stay the hell out of this debate.



MOTA!
Okay I found the bible passage.
Dwarf 2:29 Mota boy is brain-dead, sayith Jesus. Is that proof enough, freaking tard.

Mota Boy
09-28-2006, 08:28 AM
Hey dwarf, way to be original. Now go back to playing in the shallow end of the gene pool and never question your betters again. You've gotten in over your head, kid.


it is not right
why America bombed Japan despite they were much more closer to victory.
But we still hadn't actually invaded Japan itself. Look at the number of civilian dead in Germany in WWII, it's in the millions because Germany fought until it had been completely defeated. Because Germany didn't surrender, millions of people died. Now, Japan would have been the same way, except that they were training women and children to fight with sharpened bamboo. Women and children, armed with sticks, would have been attacking US soldiers armed with guns. Remember: this is the nation that invented kamikaze fighters - they had a fanatical devotion to their emperor and were willing to die to protect him. When the Japanese thought that we had tons of nuclear weapons at our disposal and that we were willing to use them, they freaked. The generals at the top were still crazy enough to try and keep fighting. The people were still obeying the emperor. It was the emperor himself (who was really just a figurehead) who had to get on national radio and end the war. Dropping the nukes and killing 100,000 people prevented a land war that would have killed millions, if not tens of millions, of Japanese.

FLeTch
09-28-2006, 03:21 PM
Hey dwarf, way to be original. Now go back to playing in the shallow end of the gene pool and never question your betters again. You've gotten in over your head, kid.


But we still hadn't actually invaded Japan itself. Look at the number of civilian dead in Germany in WWII, it's in the millions because Germany fought until it had been completely defeated. Because Germany didn't surrender, millions of people died. Now, Japan would have been the same way, except
that they were training women and children to fight with sharpened bamboo. Women and children, armed with sticks, would have been attacking US soldiers armed with guns. Remember: this is the nation that invented kamikaze fighters - they had a fanatical devotion to their emperor and were willing to die to protect him. When the Japanese thought that we had tons of nuclear weapons at our disposal and that we were willing to use them, they freaked. The generals at the top were still crazy enough to try and keep fighting. The people were still obeying the emperor. It was the emperor himself (who was really just a figurehead) who had to get on national radio and end the war. Dropping the nukes and killing 100,000 people prevented a land war that would have killed millions, if not tens of millions, of Japanese.

Dropping the nukes and killing 100,000 people prevented a land war

:)

what would you think if you were a Japan
then be objective
there is no good explanation of killing the new generation of any country

Because Germany didn't surrender, millions of people died you said
it was Hitlers choice and it was false
you can think this as a contrubition for them
and it was over in Germany when ppl died
they deserved that it was ok

but in Japan the next generation born with cureless diseases
however Japans didn't deserved that much
they didn't even start the war
the nuclear bomb was just politic
to prevent Japan developing more
actually it did but not as planned

Remember: this is the nation that invented kamikaze fighters
and don't forget this remember USA is the nation which invented atomic bomb!!! a kamikaze kill at much half thousand when atomic bomb kills at least 50 thousand!!!!

The generals at the top were still crazy enough to try and keep fighting

yes it is pride
when your country nuked will you surrender???
is it that much easy to become a exploited country


so America should apologize from Japan
like the Germany which is apologizing every year for the Nazi genocides in ww2

Mota Boy
09-29-2006, 01:56 AM
however Japans didn't deserved that much
they didn't even start the war

How fucking dumb are you? I didn't even read beyond this sentence. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you think Japan didn't start the war when they invaded Korea, China, Malaysia, Siam, Indonesia, Polynesia, Taiwan, Russia and bombed the U.S. And that hasn't even begun to dignify an error of this magnitude with an appropriate response. Holy shit, where on Earth did you learn your history?

FLeTch
09-29-2006, 09:39 AM
How fucking dumb are you? I didn't even read beyond this sentence. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you think Japan didn't start the war when they invaded Korea, China, Malaysia, Siam, Indonesia, Polynesia, Taiwan, Russia and bombed the U.S. And that hasn't even begun to dignify an error of this magnitude with an appropriate response. Holy shit, where on Earth did you learn your history?

read what the lie you want to see ;)

it is good to learn reality instead of American lies

Mota Boy
09-29-2006, 10:13 AM
Well, it's been fun talking to you, but there's no point in having a debate about history with someone with such a poor grasp of it.

wheelchairman
09-29-2006, 11:18 AM
At least ask him for a source or the debate is pointless. When he has none, then call it a waste of time and leave.

Sin Studly
09-29-2006, 11:52 AM
Holy shit, where on Earth did you learn your history?

Turkey. Where the Armenian Holocaust never happened.

FLeTch
09-30-2006, 04:46 AM
Turkey. Where the Armenian Holocaust never happened.

it is right Armenian genocide is just bullshit.In my country we respect every human being.it is not important for us(Turks) whether religion,race,skin color etc. this is what Americans and the other countries do not know(don't wanna know)

wheelchairman
09-30-2006, 04:56 AM
Hehe, what about Kurds?

Tigger Army
09-30-2006, 06:13 AM
it is right Armenian genocide is just bullshit.In my country we respect every human being.it is not important for us(Turks) whether religion,race,skin color etc.

wow how truly unique!

killer_queen
09-30-2006, 06:39 AM
Hehe, what about Kurds?

Turks love Kurds as long as they don't speak their own language, don't live with their culture and don't exist.

Venom Symbiote
10-01-2006, 03:33 AM
Simple, this is black and white.

If they attacked the Japanese heartland with conventional methods, more lives are lost. On both sides.

Hence the nuke.

No moral issue whatsoever.

Killer Dwarf
10-02-2006, 12:17 PM
Japan was working on their own Nuke too. That is why we dropped the first one, they didn't believe we had one that worked. (We weren't exactly sure it would work either).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_atomic_program

When we wanted an unconditional surrender, they should have said yes.

Sin Studly
10-02-2006, 01:20 PM
Turks love Kurds as long as they don't speak their own language, don't live with their culture and don't exist.

Just like Christendom loves Turks.

http://hometown.aol.com/atamas/impaler.jpg

Killer Dwarf
10-02-2006, 02:51 PM
Hey, I recognize that guy eating at the table. That Vlad the Impaler!!!

RickyCrack
10-02-2006, 05:13 PM
Wrong, Vlad was a battlebot.

coke_a_holic
10-02-2006, 06:54 PM
Wrong, Vlad was a battlebot.

FUCK YES. That was the greatest fucking show ever. Me and my dad, man, that was quality time for us: watching robots destroy each other.

petey
10-02-2006, 07:24 PM
No, we declared war because of the Pearl Harbor bombing.

Later on in the war, there was a choice. Either invade the two cities, costing many American soldiers, or drop the bombs.

yeah, i stick with that, it makes the most sense.

FLeTch
10-03-2006, 04:13 AM
Turks love Kurds as long as they don't speak their own language, don't live with their culture and don't exist.

Kurd is it what you are
What the fuck that you can't get from our country
You live in us,you talk what the fuck you want,YOU KILL our new born babies innocent civils in East with your fucked up terrorist organization PKK.Now you still talking about respect :mad:

lies and cruelty that is what PKK and supporter Kurds did to my country
YOU SONOFABITCH still talking about respect(even Kurds have freedom more than they deserve)

This a photograph of a Turkish school girl which was a target of fucking bomb when she was going to school.(this is also a good reply for your explanations about ''Turkish girls do not go to school '' bullshit)
http://www.imagehell.com/out.php/i142712_pkkvah351eti.jpg

IF YOU DON'T LIKE TURKEY go and find a better place to live we don't want any sonofabitchs like you

I BET YOU CAN'T FIND ANY PLACE where you can bomb,kill citizens and still want a land to live as another country :mad:

Sin Studly
10-03-2006, 07:59 AM
One girl with a bleeding forehead is all you can come up with?

http://www.bibleprobe.com/christianbodies7.jpg
http://marchforhumanity.org/images/ArmenianGenocide-3.jpg
http://marchforhumanity.org/images/ArmenianGenocide-5.jpg

Sin Studly
10-03-2006, 08:03 AM
http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/armenia/arm_refug3.jpg
http://www.arf.am/gaydzer/Gen7.JPG
http://www.armeniangenocide.com/photos/data/504/medium/armenian_genocide.jpg

killer_queen
10-03-2006, 01:51 PM
fletch, I'm sure your city is full of virgins like you.

wheelchairman
10-03-2006, 03:07 PM
Mota, I'll reply to your former post when this debate ends. Unless you really really want me to reply now. ;)

FLeTch
10-04-2006, 01:18 AM
fletch, I'm sure your city is full of virgins like you.

come not with annoying words come with some prove
it bad to be like you i guess
no real answers just bla-bla.....
if you are not right just stop talking like 6 year old kids
and apologize

is that too hard or are you characterless???

senin gibi o.Á.larına post atıp cevap yazmaya bile değmez ama :mad:

Venom Symbiote
10-04-2006, 01:55 AM
So would someone mind explaining to me where the moral debate about freakin' WORLD WAR TWO comes from, anyway?

I know the radiation has had lasting effects, and that sucks for the poor Japanese folks enduring it, but hey: it was the battle of the century. Win or lose, kill or be killed.

The Japanese had done a lot of horrible shit themselves, and the U.S. decided to end it right then and there. Relatively experimental technology, yes. Harsh? Maybe.

But the alternative was worse. What are they meant to do, go for a full-scale physical invasion? They'd win, but the casualties would be unacceptable.

Better to nuke 'em.

FLeTch
10-05-2006, 02:17 PM
So would someone mind explaining to me where the moral debate about freakin' WORLD WAR TWO comes from, anyway?

I know the radiation has had lasting effects, and that sucks for the poor Japanese folks enduring it, but hey: it was the battle of the century. Win or lose, kill or be killed.

The Japanese had done a lot of horrible shit themselves, and the U.S. decided to end it right then and there. Relatively experimental technology, yes. Harsh? Maybe.

But the alternative was worse. What are they meant to do, go for a full-scale physical invasion? They'd win, but the casualties would be unacceptable.

Better to nuke 'em.

it is the easiest way
think about your country nuked by some other
can you still say nuking is the solution. :confused:

jacknife737
10-05-2006, 02:53 PM
But the alternative was worse. What are they meant to do, go for a full-scale physical invasion? They'd win, but the casualties would be unacceptable.
Better to nuke 'em.

It's arguable that Japan could have been forced to surrender eventually by a navel blockade.

Even several high-ranking U.S. generals and officials disagreed with the decision to use atomic bombs, some of them included Eisenhower, Douglas MacArthur, and Admiral Chester Nimitz to name a few.

Venom Symbiote
10-05-2006, 06:34 PM
Yeah, I knew about that Jacknife, you definitely have a point. Germany was already falling apart, and I don't think there's any debate over whether or not we, the Allies, could have ended it through conventional means. Of course we could have.

It was more a matter of "OK, we've been fighting for six years, millions of people are dead, and we don't really have a lot of time to finish the Empire off."

And yeah, I know the Soviets had recently declared war on them too post-Nazi fall, putting Japan in an even more pressured position. They would have surrendered eventually anyway.

I'm not sure of the exact figures for the deaths caused by the nukes (it'd be on Wikipedia, but I couldn't be fucked searching it at the moment), but if you blockaded them, they'd attack you.

You've gotta understand, you can't just blockade the Japanese and sanction them while they've still got an army. They're not going to be all "o noez, we'd better not attack their forces in our bay, zomg, coz they'z might not trade wit us no more g!". As long as they had something to fire at you they were going to fire it at you, even if there was no hope of winning. Traditionally, the Japanese aren't like other folks. They are honourable and self-sacrificing, that whole samurai-code thing. And this wasn't just in a few kamikaze pilots, this was widespread throughout their entire society. So, having blockaded them, all you'd achieve is millions upon millions of Japanese chanting "PROTECT THE EMPEROOOOR!" and shooting every fucking thing they have at your naval presence, no matter the cost to themselves.

Thus, the West would be forced to retaliate to protect their battle group, and the casualties would have eventually been worse than the nukes.

The Japanese of the early 20th century were some of the bravest most intense folks the earth has seen. They did some fucked up things, but in their mindset all in the protection and prospering of the homeland. They would protect it at any cost, even if it meant they all died. Nukes scared the fuck out of them and prevented them from doing that.

It was more psychological and logical than a consideration of using "fair" weapons. In a war, if you have the advantage, you fucking use it. Morality only comes into it when it's not a dire life-or-death-for-the-entire-world situation. Again: the alternative, as proven in many documents over the years, was insane.

You would win with an invasion, you would be forced to attack them anyway if you decided for a peaceful blockade (they'd ensure it), so what are you left with? Nukes.

Mota Boy
10-06-2006, 12:41 AM
it is the easiest way
think about your country nuked by some other
can you still say nuking is the solution.
Is my country Japan? Yeah, I can. I've known Japanese to agree with me. Also, if my country was, say, Turkey and we were massacring hundreds of thousands of inncent Armenians, then I'd say that the Armenians had every right to nuke us.


It's arguable that Japan could have been forced to surrender eventually by a navel blockade.
Yeah, but that's playing with extreme hypotheticals. One of which is: how many Japanese would have starved to death before they surrendered? (remember: 1)Japan can't produce enough food to feed itself and 2)Japan is being led by a radical army dictatorship) And a naval blockade would have affected the entire country rather than two cities. And just in case it ain't clear, I think far more Japanese would have died due to a blockade.

FLeTch
10-06-2006, 03:32 AM
Is my country Japan? Yeah, I can. I've known Japanese to agree with me. Also, if my country was, say, Turkey and we were massacring hundreds of thousands of inncent Armenians, then I'd say that the Armenians had every right to nuke us.


Yeah, but that's playing with extreme hypotheticals. One of which is: how many Japanese would have starved to death before they surrendered? (remember: 1)Japan can't produce enough food to feed itself and 2)Japan is being led by a radical army dictatorship) And a naval blockade would have affected the entire country rather than two cities. And just in case it ain't clear, I think far more Japanese would have died due to a blockade.

you just make me laugh
do you believe in Armeian massacre bullshit
at least you should make research with historical documents

DO NOY BELIEVE JUST WHAT YOU HEARD,
BE OBJECTIVE!!!

also i am still against nuclear bombs
because of the effect of nuclear bombs are not permenant(still ppl suffering from this don't forget!!!)

HornyPope
10-06-2006, 08:56 PM
WW2 was a war of supremacy and it's only fitting that Americans judged their soldiers too precious to sacrifice in an offensive. Don't anyone fool himself about "sparing the enemy", the only concern of the chief of staff was for his own troops.

Venom Symbiote
10-06-2006, 09:49 PM
Indeed. To an extent, anyway.

I still stand by the view that the nukes were more humanitarian and merciful, considering their other options.

But yeah, in a war like that you can't really pay too much heed to "fairness". It's crush or be crushed, just be damn thankful we were the ones doing the crushing.

And yep, a lot of Japanese people (especially older ones) totally agree with the decision.

Mota Boy
10-07-2006, 01:12 AM
WW2 was a war of supremacy and it's only fitting that Americans judged their soldiers too precious to sacrifice in an offensive. Don't anyone fool himself about "sparing the enemy", the only concern of the chief of staff was for his own troops.
1) Are you suggesting that America happens to be a particularly selfish nation, and that plenty of other nations would've judged the war differently?

2) To see America's actions immediately after the second World War is to see a model of an altruistic nation, as damn fine a model as one could imagine. America immediately after WWII was the least selfish possible in dealing not only with allied countries, but also with countries that had been enemies mere days before. So to somehow suggest that America was a an especially self-centered nation during that time period flies in the face of a veritable mountain of historical fact.

3) Even holding your points to be true, they still completely sidestep the argument that any other course of action would have been more devastating to the Japanese populace, thus presenting a straw man hypothesis that has no ultimate effect on the outcome of the debate.

HornyPope
10-07-2006, 12:19 PM
1) Are you suggesting that America happens to be a particularly selfish nation, and that plenty of other nations would've judged the war differently?

I'm saying the Americans were supremacist in the same way other nations were supremacist.


2) To see America's actions immediately after the second World War is to see a model of an altruistic nation, as damn fine a model as one could imagine. America immediately after WWII was the least selfish possible in dealing not only with allied countries, but also with countries that had been enemies mere days before. So to somehow suggest that America was a an especially self-centered nation during that time period flies in the face of a veritable mountain of historical fact.

America wasn't wrought and invaded by the enemy, America had no claims for European territory, American people held very little grudge against the enemy.

Though Rosvelt did favour Stalin's plan to execute every third (i think) German officer, and level the factories in Ruhr so to deny Germans the industrial capacity.

Funny you should talk about altruism. I'm assuming you refer to the no-string-attached Marshall plan and the school of thought that henceforth developed. See, this is one thing you Yankees don't get, even smart boys like you, Mota. You think you're so generous and awesome throwing away maybe a fifth of your paycheck to support a noble goal, nevermind that USA was the only country to prosper throughout the war, nevermind it was only profitable to pump European economy so your own wouldn't stall. But what you don't understand is Eastern people threw their lives to this very cause, Russian men and women have died to free Europe of Nazi scorn, the Polish fighters have sacrified their finest to maintain resistance and support the Allied troops. What did USA do? You gave away your dollars.

Giving away a little bit of what your countryman earned in their distant and safe land where enemy bombers couldn't reach was probably the very LEAST you could do. Doesn't mean it wasn't a nice gesture, or that you had to do it, but given the length people have gone to sacrifice all they had, yours wasn't anywhere spectacular.


3) Even holding your points to be true, they still completely sidestep the argument that any other course of action would have been more devastating to the Japanese populace, thus presenting a straw man hypothesis that has no ultimate effect on the outcome of the debate.

No one concerned himself with the Japanese populace and that's the bottom line. The around-the-clock strategic bombing of Japan has cost maybe half a million civilian casualties, the majority being women and kids and elderly naturally from 1944 to '45. And when the war staff discovered the Japanese buildings weren't quick to light up like the Germans due to the nature of their construction, they started to orient the strategic bombs against the personel.

To "spare" Japanese population was the least of anyone's worries. What only mattered was the life of the American soldier.

(yes i know my text is unorganised and chaotic but i dont have the time to order it properly)