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opivy21
08-31-2006, 03:57 PM
I've noticed recently that whenever musical genres are being discussed or debated, someone always loves to say that they "hate labels" and "it's all music". Why is this? Is it just a trend? What's so wrong with labeling music? Labels simply help classify bands that sound similar. Labeling a band does not neccessarily call that band good or bad. I actually think that they can make things easier.

What are your opinions on labeling music?


I would also like to say that I like arguing about genres. But maybe that's just me...

Llamas
08-31-2006, 04:01 PM
labels carry stigmas and connotations. 5 years ago, calling something EMO wasn't necessarily considered a bad thing. Now it is. Labelling music causes arguments because there are no clear-cut lines for definitions. And any music that is performed by a symphony is always called CLASSICAL by the ignorant observer, even stuff that was made in this century. It's stupid to label stuff.

Endymion
08-31-2006, 04:01 PM
because "electro-grind-noise-core" or "anarcho-free-jazz-crust-punk" don't really tell you what the music sounds like.

Apathy
08-31-2006, 04:05 PM
labels carry stigmas and connotations. 5 years ago, calling something EMO wasn't necessarily considered a bad thing. Now it is. Labelling music causes arguments because there are no clear-cut lines for definitions. And any music that is performed by a symphony is always called CLASSICAL by the ignorant observer, even stuff that was made in this century. It's stupid to label stuff.


And Ten Years emo was another type of music altogether. :rolleyes:

opivy21
08-31-2006, 04:08 PM
I'm speaking in general. I DO NOT like the hundreds of sub-genres that sprout up every day, especially the ones with "core" involved. I mean distinctions between punk/jazz/metal/pop/blues/etc. I don't mean stuff like the difference between crust and grind, hardcore and metalcore, etc.

Llamas
08-31-2006, 04:11 PM
I'm speaking in general. I DO NOT like the hundreds of sub-genres that sprout up every day, especially the ones with "core" involved. I mean distinctions between punk/jazz/metal/pop/blues/etc. I don't mean stuff like the difference between crust and grind, hardcore and metalcore, etc.

okay, so give me a strict definition of punk. And one of metal. and one of pop. genres are all opinions. If I say a band is metal, you're going to immediately think of a different sound than I do. That means that you're not going to have an idea what the band sounds like based on that.

Tigger Army
08-31-2006, 04:12 PM
because "electro-grind-noise-core" or "anarcho-free-jazz-crust-punk" don't really tell you what the music sounds like.

yes you can overlabel, but most bands can be at least somewhat put in a genre eventhough some debate is still possible.

A genre is a simple shortcut. I don't like the entire genre Trance for example. So if someone posts a song from that genre and he says it's trance I know I don't want to hear it cause I will most likely *not* like it. Same goes for the even more narrowed down Death metal. When I read that label then I know: okay I will most likely NOT like the vocals on this song where with Black metal or power metal I know there is a decent chance I like the vocals and in the end the song. Even more narrow: NSBM (national socialistic black metal) when I see that I know I don't even bother listening to the band cause I don't feel like supporting nazis.

That people feel negative emotions when they hear a genre name is helpful for the person in question. It'll only get annoying when they start discussing in a non-intelligent/accepting way (in other words: trash a genre numerous times in the same topic or on the same message board).

The label "Ontopic" in an Offspring forum also helps me to stay out of a part of the bbs that I don't want to be found on too often cause I'll probably be disgusted by a lot of 'fans'

oh and grindcore is always noise so the extra labels noise and electro don't really matter anymore ;)

opivy21
08-31-2006, 04:15 PM
^Agreed.

hkfdss

Tigger Army
08-31-2006, 04:15 PM
okay, so give me a strict definition of punk. And one of metal. and one of pop. genres are all opinions. If I say a band is metal, you're going to immediately think of a different sound than I do. That means that you're not going to have an idea what the band sounds like based on that.

and that's not necessarily true when people accept a few features of a genre. Like when punk generally should be quick with relatively few solo's and a specific sound setting for the guitars.

ofcourse it's not a 100% accurate or accepted definition but you'll find a lot of people agreeing on those terms (and adding a few probably).

And the difference between metal and punk... Well maybe it's not easy to define, but most people tend to separate the two genres in at least similar ways. (ie, no one says Anti-Flag is metal or Black Sabbath is trance, punk or death metal)

Llamas
08-31-2006, 04:17 PM
by your definition of punk, simple plan fits. therefore, someone might say "omg you should check out bowling for soup! they're a punk band"

I'd check them out if they fit MY Definition of punk. But not that definition.

Tigger Army
08-31-2006, 04:17 PM
And Ten Years emo was another type of music altogether. :rolleyes:

yep while most people call 'emotional poppunk' emo these days (like The Ataris or even Good Charlotte) it once was a genre that actually had more ties with hardcore than with punk... ah well..

coke_a_holic
08-31-2006, 04:18 PM
People who say they hate labeling music either listens to music that's almost unclassifiable (i.e. Endymion) or they want to rebel against the common thought that labels = good. The latter are just stupid and don't like the idea that they're not completely individual because the music they like can fit into a group of similar music. This may be a completely ignorant statement, but that's the way I see it based off the people I know.

Tigger Army
08-31-2006, 04:18 PM
by your definition of punk, simple plan fits.

like I said no definition is full proof. Or maybe they do fit in there concidering offspring, blink 182 and the ataris all fit in there aswell..

Tigger Army
08-31-2006, 04:21 PM
People who say they hate labeling music either listens to music that's almost unclassifiable (i.e. Endymion) or they want to rebel against the common thought that labels = good. The latter are just stupid and don't like the idea that they're not completely individual because the music they like can fit into a group of similar music. This may be a completely ignorant statement, but that's the way I see it based off the people I know.

well yes, most people who don't like labelling I know concider themselves to be "alternative". While most of them are the same. Insecure bastards

I don't really care wether people label me as a punk or a metalhead. I think I fit more in the later categorie though plenty of stuff I listen to isn't even metal related...

Llamas
08-31-2006, 04:21 PM
People who say they hate labeling music either listens to music that's almost unclassifiable (i.e. Endymion) or they want to rebel against the common thought that labels = good. The latter are just stupid and don't like the idea that they're not completely individual because the music they like can fit into a group of similar music. This may be a completely ignorant statement, but that's the way I see it based off the people I know.

for me it's because everyone has a different definition of every genre. Nobody agrees on the definitions of most genres. I prefer to define music by styles within it, instead of saying "this band is country", I'd say "there's a lot of twang in the singer's voice", because country is such a diverse genre.

Llamas
08-31-2006, 04:23 PM
like I said no definition is full proof. Or maybe they do fit in there concidering offspring, blink 182 and the ataris all fit in there aswell..

I don't consider any of those bands as punk.

DeAtHsTaR
08-31-2006, 04:29 PM
Genres like post-rock should be exterminated, if only for the stupid name.

Tigger Army
08-31-2006, 04:32 PM
I don't consider any of those bands as punk.

yes but you're not the majority. (BTW I personally think the rule should be added that punklyrics have to be about politics and/or society).

Llamas
08-31-2006, 04:33 PM
you're not the majority either...

Tigger Army
08-31-2006, 04:37 PM
you're not the majority either...

exactly. so neither one of our opinions matter much. The majority seems to be labeling those bands as punk; therefor they most likely are punk or have at least something punkish

Llamas
08-31-2006, 04:42 PM
exactly. so neither one of our opinions matter much. The majority seems to be labeling those bands as punk; therefor they most likely are punk or have at least something punkish
what? you're saying that the opinions of people who aren't the majority don't matter much? that's BS.

and at that... just because the mainstream says something is punk, doesn't mean it is. The majority of the mainstream thinks that a tomato is strictly either a vegetable or a fruit. In definition, it's both. Just because the majority thinks something doesn't mean it's right.

H1T_That
08-31-2006, 04:43 PM
I go off the genre's dance, rock, r'n'b, rap, jazz etc. Leaving things very broad.

for example there, i only listen to rock. So if i ask someone about a band and they say rock, i'll give the band a look.

Tigger Army
08-31-2006, 04:47 PM
what? you're saying that the opinions of people who aren't the majority don't matter much? that's BS.

and at that... just because the mainstream says something is punk, doesn't mean it is. The majority of the mainstream thinks that a tomato is strictly either a vegetable or a fruit. In definition, it's both. Just because the majority thinks something doesn't mean it's right.

actually in most cases it is. Sadly perhaps, but it is. Something turns into a concept because people generally agree the concept is right.

And though you may not like it, in a lot of cases the majority is right in practise. is that a good thing? Perhaps not, probably not, doesn't change much though.

Apathy
08-31-2006, 05:02 PM
yep while most people call 'emotional poppunk' emo these days (like The Ataris or even Good Charlotte) it once was a genre that actually had more ties with hardcore than with punk... ah well..


It used to stand for Emotive Hardcore. Whatever the hell that means. But it was pretty good.

Rites of Spring.. some Fugazi.

Genres are a good thing. It doesn't matter if some people are stupid and want to fight over them. If someone says a band is Pop-punk, I'll know what to expect. If someone says a band is Metal, I'll know what to expect.

Even If I don't know exactly where in that genre they will lie, at least I'll have an idea of who they might share a stage with.

Endymion
08-31-2006, 05:26 PM
Daughters are often considered metal, who would they share a stage with?

JohnnyNemesis
08-31-2006, 05:44 PM
I don't like the entire genre Trance for example. So if someone posts a song from that genre and he says it's trance I know I don't want to hear it cause I will most likely *not* like it.

This is exactly why I am so very against genre labels. Even the absolute worst genres imaginable have a few songs here or ther that I like, just like the absolute worst bands of all time have a few great songs (Morning Glory by Oasis, Sweetness by Jimmy Eat World, etc.)


Even more narrow: NSBM (national socialistic black metal) when I see that I know I don't even bother listening to the band cause I don't feel like supporting nazis.

Well...okay, I'm with you on this.

Jakebert
08-31-2006, 05:53 PM
I tend to try to avoid the really specific labelling because I think it's kind of pointless, but there's no way around broad labeling because that's a really simple way of describing music. The only sub-genre I really use in labeling is post-rock because just saying "instrumental music" is way too broad when I'm looking for something specific.

And Dain, the only reason you don't like the name is because you think it's saying "OMG, ROCK IS DEAD". That's even dumber than calling a genre post-rock, especially since you're just running your mouth without knowing what you're talking about.