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View Full Version : Do you think most americans are religious maniacs?



darea
11-10-2006, 08:11 AM
As most of you guys are american you might not like this thread. But from what I see of american people they are real religious maniacs. Ever since they got to america, they thought it was their promised land and all that bullshit about manifest destiny and the fact that god had given them that land when it actually already belonged to the natives.
The most stupid thing about the colonisers is that they were running away from religious persecution in their home countries, they come to america and they become worse than the people they were running away from. and when you just see all those evangelical people and stuff I just think what the fuck?

I guess the religious maniacal tendencies might go to the elder older people and their children who are brought up to think in the stupid way of their family and stuff, but anyway what do you guys think?

Specially you americans as I just dont know, looking at america from france just doesnt make you want to go there cause there's so many people wanting to convert other people in their religion that it can give you the creeps, and Im not talking about the law and stuff and death penalty and stuff its just everything seems banned except being able to have guns.....

anyway discuss if you think this a good topic or just do whatever

Not Ozymandias
11-10-2006, 08:32 AM
http://www.packingheat.com/images/postelection.jpg

Little_Miss_1565
11-10-2006, 09:36 AM
As with anything, be careful when you make sweeping generalizations. Democrats just took the House and Senate, so hopefully the Christian right will be dwindling in influence (though of course they will never totally go away).

RickyCrack
11-10-2006, 10:52 AM
According to current surveys 75% of Americans believe in God, also only 58% of them are certain. This is in contrast to just 10 years ago where 91% of Americans believed in a God with 78% being certain.

RickyCrack
11-10-2006, 11:09 AM
yea, but it's a bit of a stretch nowadays to consider America a country of religious freaks, when compared to say the middle east where basically the entirety of the population would be certain that there is a god.

RickyCrack
11-10-2006, 11:30 AM
I'm not arguing that rednecks are freaking retards. Sometimes I wish the south had won the civil war so I wouldn't be associated with anything below missouri. But if the whole religious fanaticism shit really worked then capital hill would be more red.

Sin Studly
11-10-2006, 11:39 AM
The USA is not a country filled with religious freaks, for fucks sake. Compare them to Muslims.

In fact, they're not even religious freaks compared to Christian nations. Compare them to the Romanism of Latin America and Central Europe, the Coptics in Africa, the insane machete-wielding Christian fanatics in the middle east and caucasus, the crazy Orthadox nations, etc etc...

The only possible reason you could have for calling the USA a nation filled with religious freaks is if you come from an even more sterile, boring and soulless nation than them.

edit ; oh, wait....

Llamas
11-10-2006, 12:53 PM
You guys. The US is number two in the world for denying evolution. Number one is Turkey (lololol). We're so damn progressive that we can't accept scientific theory that is as close to proven as it's probably ever going to be. Plus movies like Saved! prove how psycho we are. No lie.

Nina
11-10-2006, 01:32 PM
when compared to say the middle east where basically the entirety of the population would be certain that there is a god.

I disagree. Experience at first hand.


And my first thought was what ilovellamas said.

I also find it hard to understand why people argue by comparing the US to a lot smaller and less powerful countries that are in the Middle East or in Central Europe, let alone in Africa or Latin America. I agree that the population might be more religious, but who cares? The US government does things in the name of god and it has a bigger impact.

Llamas
11-10-2006, 01:37 PM
I also find it hard to understand why people argue by comparing the US to a lot smaller and less powerful countries that are in the Middle East or in Central Europe, let alone in Africa or Latin America. I agree that the population might be more religious, but who cares? The US government does things in the name of god and it has a bigger impact.
Not to mention how progressive and advanced we claim to be... we're supposed to be leading by example, and proving how developed we are. Yet gays still can't marry and evolution is devil-speak.

wheelchairman
11-10-2006, 03:26 PM
Darea. America is a big and diverse land (duh). But there are similar tendencies of religion in all places. Mostly religion thrives in the uneducated and non-industrialized parts of the United States, much like the provinces of France would have more catholics than the large cities.

It is quite a contradiction when you have a nation of such size and diversity in one government. I come from the state with the lowest church attendance *in the nation*. And yet the faith-based initiatives started by Bush are still forced on us, when we literally have no need and could use our taxes for other more popular things.

The actions of the government are rather interesting. Religion is clearly used to motivate people into support. And it is rather obvious that it has been used for years as the number one method of excluding certian issues and debates from the political debate in the states (public political debate that is.) I mean from what I recall there seemed to be a lot more about moral issues and not much about *the war* in the last presidential election.

It's rather interesting how power can be used to organize issues *in* and *out* of the debate, and this is such a clear cut textbook example. I wish I was still having political science lectures.

Anyways your nation might not use religion as a method of influencing people, but your historical and cultural situation means that your government is using something to influence what it wants in and out of the public debate. Although France has elections so often it seems that you don't seem to get very much done. Might not be a bad thing.

Mota Boy
11-10-2006, 04:43 PM
I also find it hard to understand why people argue by comparing the US to a lot smaller and less powerful countries that are in the Middle East or in Central Europe, let alone in Africa or Latin America. I agree that the population might be more religious, but who cares? The US government does things in the name of god and it has a bigger impact.
Because we're not talking about who has a bigger impact, we're arguing about how religious the US is in relation to other countries of the world. Thus, it makes sense to bring up other countries in the world.


Sometimes I wish the south had won the civil war so I wouldn't be associated with anything below missouri.
Watch yo' mouth.


Personally, I think the US isn't necessarily extremely religious compared to the rest of the world. Compared to Western Europe and countries in Asia we certainly are, but compared to other large swaths of the world we're just more visible. Part of that visibility comes with being the most totally fucking awesome country in the world (or most powerful, whatever), but part of it is also due to the fact that America is a country divided. Unlike many other countries, we have both an extremely religious group *and* a long tradition of secularism. This leads religion to be involved in many more high-profile clashes than it otherwise would. Take, for example, abortion.

Abortions are illegal in many countries and in many others were only legalized fairly recently (many Western European countries only legalized it in the sixties and seventies, the same time the US did). However, because of our religious sector, the abortion issue has remained at the forefront of national debate, making the religious part of the US much more visible, even though our laws, thus far, fall in line with many of the most areligious states.

The whole homosexual issue also makes the news a lot. Ooooh, Americans hate teh gay. Again, look to other countries. Most Western European countries (now remember, these are the most progressive states in the world also began legalizing homosexuality and homosexual acts in the sixties and seventies, about the time gay rights began in the US.

Also, the power of the American religious movement is really overstated. The "Moral Majority", the first big Christian political group, eventually disbanded. Why? Well, everyone who joined agreed that they were Christian, and that they like morals. Easy enough. But when the group started promoting specific issues, its members found out they all had different ideas. Sure, prayer in school is a good thing, but do you enforce it our just allow it? Gays are bad, but do we really want to outlaw their lifestyle? Christians soon found out that even though they may have the same "values", they have a wide variety of opinions on what, exactly, those values mean.

Look, we've got a lot of Christians, but only a small minority are really vocal about it. The thing is, they're really vocal. I'm an agnostic that grew up in the rural South and I've never had an issue with it. Most of my friends are Christians - I'd say the vast majority, even - but I guarantee you that they share your opinion of "religious maniacs".

Sin Studly
11-10-2006, 10:18 PM
Like Mota Boy said, this whole thread is about comparison to other nations. Oh noez, gays aren't allowed to marry? Compare that to nations where they're not allowed to live. Oh noez, the theory of evolution is still contested? Compare that to nations who've never heard of the theory of evolution and still believe their govenrment officials are vampires (vampires, for fucks sake). Oh noez, an abortionist gets shot once in a while? Compare that to an entire town getting hacked to death with machetes for being the wrong religion. Some backwards appalachian hicks speak in tongues and handle snakes? Compare that to the people in central america who actually crucify themselves, with fucking nails, every easter.

XYlophonetreeZ
11-11-2006, 09:06 AM
Compare that to the people in central america who actually crucify themselves, with fucking nails, every easter.
Um, actually some of the most famous instances of that happening are in New Mexico. But still, you made good points in general.

Venom Symbiote
11-11-2006, 04:01 PM
The USA is not a country filled with religious freaks, for fucks sake... USA a nation filled with religious freaks is if you come from an even more sterile, boring and soulless nation than them.

edit ; oh, wait....


Exactly. The America-hating has to stop, seriously. All you see in the media these days is "Jesus camp" this and "Bible Belt" that, with a few "government war criminal" slurs thrown in. It's bullshit.

Just out of curiosity, where are you from Sin? You always make good points on this kind of stuff from an outsider perspective, just wondering which country.

You're right though, being from Australia I see this stuff all the time. People here dismissing Americans as "overly-religious" and "arrogant" or whatever. But hey, that's only in comparison to us, an island of drunken apathetic folks caring more about Rugby games than foreign policy.

I'm serious, I got called a "Nazi" the other day on campus for wearing Nike shoes. Their logic being that "your shoes are American! You evil warmonger!"

Ridiculous.

Llamas
11-11-2006, 05:00 PM
Like Mota Boy said, this whole thread is about comparison to other nations. Oh noez, gays aren't allowed to marry? Compare that to nations where they're not allowed to live. Oh noez, the theory of evolution is still contested? Compare that to nations who've never heard of the theory of evolution and still believe their govenrment officials are vampires (vampires, for fucks sake). Oh noez, an abortionist gets shot once in a while? Compare that to an entire town getting hacked to death with machetes for being the wrong religion. Some backwards appalachian hicks speak in tongues and handle snakes? Compare that to the people in central america who actually crucify themselves, with fucking nails, every easter.

However, Americans are taught otherwise. We have the fortune of learning why these things are wrong. Yet we overwhelmingly refute intelligence and hold onto religious views. Countries that participiate in the things you listed tend to be VERY uneducated and don't know any better. If they have heard of more intelligent things, those things are so foreign that they can't begin to understand them. I guess the proper question, then, would be "do you think most americans are stupidly religious maniacs?" to which, as an american, I still answer "yes".

Mota Boy
11-11-2006, 07:35 PM
Exactly. The America-hating has to stop, seriously. All you see in the media these days is "Jesus camp" this and "Bible Belt" that, with a few "government war criminal" slurs thrown in. It's bullshit.

That's hilarious. I'm planning on visiting Australia at some vague point in the next couple years and I'll have to remember to pack my American flag t-shirt. I love being an intelligent, liberal American travelling abroad - I've found that people generally like me that much better when they realize that a) I'm an American and b) I don't totally dig the current administration. Then I throw in some argumentative jujitsu about how Christians are pretty cool and America's a good country and try to buy 'em a beer. You end up making friends incredibly quickly, and blowing a few minds in the process.

What's funniest about that, however, is that I've been lurking at Free Republic (www.freerepublic.com) lately - a very conservative US website that verges on extremism - and they loooove Australia (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?s=Australian&ok=Search&q=quick&m=all&o=time&SX=455695b0b9114586a71d2ac26bc654cdde6edbc0). Unfortunately, I couldn't find the thread where they debated whether Howard should be President or king of the US, but every so often (especially after this election) their members will express a desire to move to Australia.

WebDudette
11-11-2006, 07:40 PM
I don't tend to talk to a lot of people about religion but a majority of the people I have met aren't extremely religious.

Sin Studly
11-11-2006, 09:44 PM
That's hilarious. I'm planning on visiting Australia at some vague point in the next couple years and I'll have to remember to pack my American flag t-shirt. I love being an intelligent, liberal American travelling abroad - I've found that people generally like me that much better when they realize that a) I'm an American and b) I don't totally dig the current administration. Then I throw in some argumentative jujitsu about how Christians are pretty cool and America's a good country and try to buy 'em a beer. You end up making friends incredibly quickly, and blowing a few minds in the process.

That'd work here if we didn't hate your motherfucking accents so motherfucking bad.

calichix
11-11-2006, 11:51 PM
I don't know any religious fanatics. I've met a few, but they were from Oklahoma (a state which might as well not exist, because it's unimportant and the state of Oklahoma is addicted to meth). I think you'd be disappointed if you came to America, little lady. I bet you a million dollars you'll get publicly date raped by a Satanist before you get dragged to church and converted to Christianity.

Mota Boy
11-12-2006, 12:47 AM
That'd work here if we didn't hate your motherfucking accents so motherfucking bad.
Psshhhhhh. I already know that you'd fuck me for bragging rights alone, so you have no say. As for the rest of your country... 1)they haven't met me and 2)I can do multiple accents [I was a theater head at my high school]

darea
11-12-2006, 01:43 AM
Hey well at least you guys answered to the thread, it was not about comparing the states with other countries, the question was just about religions maniacs in thte states, okay I said "most" americans but that was to get this thread started. Maybe that Jesus country area on that map on page 1 is as big as france, as the states are so big, how can we tell? But anyway this was just to know about what you guys think as americans. I'm one of those people who hate americans and all that, I have some american friends but as far as north america goes I have more friends in canada....

I never said that france was better, cause I dont specially like france its just like some of you said, we get to see a lot of the religious side of the states and we dont see much of the religious side of france, and things shown on the news tend to exagerate things and stuff. like the paris riots I saw that in other countries the only thing we saw on the news were the riots and maybe not what actually caused them : sarkozi.

I'm not even french at all, I'm considered as an english in france and as a french in england, lets say I'm both and you dont give a fuck about it anyway.
I'm not afraid of going to the states and I'll never be converted, my parents are quakers but they dont practice anything, we just celebrate christmas and easter but not for the religious reasons just for the food I guess.

wheelchairman
11-12-2006, 02:35 AM
Hey well at least you guys answered to the thread, it was not about comparing the states with other countries, the question was just about religions maniacs in thte states, okay I said "most" americans but that was to get this thread started. Maybe that Jesus country area on that map on page 1 is as big as france, as the states are so big, how can we tell? But anyway this was just to know about what you guys think as americans. I'm one of those people who hate americans and all that, I have some american friends but as far as north america goes I have more friends in canada....


When talking about countries and what happens in them. You can't say things like "most" or whatever, without comparing them. If you compare it to Western Europe you could so "yeah most Americans seem to be religious fanatics." Compare it to the whole world and you are wrong.

The Jesus land map is not only bigger than France, it's several *times* bigger than France. wtf?

And really that last line there just sealed the deal on what I think of you.

Llamas
11-12-2006, 02:56 AM
I'm one of those people who hate americans and all that, I have some american friends but as far as north america goes I have more friends in canada....
That's such an ignorant to say. As far as Europe goes, I have more friends in Germany than in France. As far as Asia goes, I have more friends in India than I have in China. As far as South America goes, I have more friends in Ecuador and Colombia than in Aregentina. So what? Does that add to a stereotype I have formed about France or China or Argentina? Wow.

Little_Miss_1565
11-12-2006, 07:09 AM
I'm serious, I got called a "Nazi" the other day on campus for wearing Nike shoes. Their logic being that "your shoes are American! You evil warmonger!"

Ridiculous.

LOL. Nike shoes are about as American as chopsticks.

Sin Studly
11-12-2006, 07:37 AM
Psshhhhhh. I already know that you'd fuck me for bragging rights alone

I have never, ever, ever in my life had fuckiesfucks with anybody I don't hate with every fibre of my being. And I don't plan on starting anytime soon.

wheelchairman
11-12-2006, 08:25 AM
LOL. Nike shoes are about as American as chopsticks.

Nike is a product of the Cascadian Republic. :)

That and when it comes down to it. You remove Nike jobs, and you end up creating cihldren prostitutes. yay?

calichix
11-12-2006, 08:34 AM
I know a Texan who went to Australia and everyone was a dick to her so she started playing up the Texan thing and talking about rustling doggies and all that, so she was a big hit. So Mota you'll be fine, you southern bell.

darea, I think you're a relatively intelligent young lady, but you're at a stage in your life when you haven't learned to think for yourself and everything you say is stupid. at least WE let madonna crucify herself on stage.

Venom Symbiote
11-12-2006, 03:10 PM
I'm serious. There have been about a dozen universities up and down the east-coast of Australia recently investigated for malicious mistreatment of Americans. Institutionally, not just the students (although they make up a majority of it).

I've personally seen a girl crying after being verbally abused pretty-much constantly. It's fucking ridiculous, she was just a normal average first-year student studying abroad to get a more worldly view in life, and she's fucking bitched at all day long. Not just by a few people, but everyone. Campus security doesn't give a fuck.

I'm not sure if this was the case pre-September 11th (I only started University life when the War On Terror had started), but in any case it shouldn't be tolerated. Americans are great. I can honestly say, of the 10 or so I've met in person (either people visiting here or permanent residents that were raised in the U.S.) every single one of them has been polite, friendly, decent, and not a religious maniac at all.

In short, Australians are total ball-heads and shouldn't be listened to.

We hate anyone that doesn't speak like Crocodile Dundee and play cricket. We do. And hey, if you're American, just expect worse.

And yeah, Mota Boy, I know a lot of Americans love Australians and Australia, which just makes the behaviour of these college kids even more deplorable. I'm ashamed.

L_M_1565, yup, the Nike thing is insane. Just shows you how pretty much all Australians are dipshits. Ignore us.

HornyPope
11-12-2006, 07:58 PM
I agree that the population might be more religious, but who cares? The US government does things in the name of god and it has a bigger impact.


Because we're not talking about who has a bigger impact, we're arguing about how religious the US is in relation to other countries of the world. Thus, it makes sense to bring up other countries in the world.


It might be irrelevant in the discussion here but it's a very true point in general. It's disheartning to watch how a decision to carry on a war or "an agressive policy" (which is the popular euphamism) for instance rests on whether the hicks in West virginia support or contest the current Government. Seriously, America, you have to be held accountable for decisions of your countrymates.

Little_Miss_1565
11-12-2006, 08:06 PM
WCM, for serious? I always thought Nike was a Japanese company. But the kids making the shoes are probably moonlighting as child prostitutes anyway.

Sin Studly
11-12-2006, 10:15 PM
In short, Australians are total ball-heads and shouldn't be listened to.

We hate anyone that doesn't speak like Crocodile Dundee and play cricket. We do. And hey, if you're American, just expect worse.

Damn right. And the best part is, Australians are probably the most beloved people on the planet. Aside from the mild New Zealand rivalries ; which are pretty much friendly and don't count, and those gookers in the half dozen SE Asian countries we've bombed ; whose opinions don't count because we can bomb them again, everybody loves us. And we hate fucking everybody.

Death to the Outlanders!

wheelchairman
11-12-2006, 11:36 PM
WCM, for serious? I always thought Nike was a Japanese company. But the kids making the shoes are probably moonlighting as child prostitutes anyway.

Yep, Phil Knight comes from Oregon. And I don't think they prostitute. I mean in the 6 hours a day they aren't working they are probably sleeping.

Paint_It_Black
11-12-2006, 11:52 PM
I mean in the 6 hours a day they aren't working they are probably sleeping.

pfft, don't assume everyone's as lazy as you.

JoY
11-13-2006, 04:35 AM
You guys. The US is number two in the world for denying evolution. Number one is Turkey (lololol). We're so damn progressive that we can't accept scientific theory that is as close to proven as it's probably ever going to be. Plus movies like Saved! prove how psycho we are. No lie.

I love you so much, babe. not for sucking up, or whatever, & not like I'm sucking up, but you're rational, down to earth & critical, even towards yourself & what involves you. that's just awesome. even if I don't agree, which isn't the case now, I appreciate you think for yourself.

Americans are (GENERALLY) pretty much insane for anything they believe in & stand for. that's the ultimate definition of fanatics & they fill the shoes of that definition so very well, it's sometimes scary. American history is interesting. it's not very long, but it's interesting. America is a collection of different cultures & nationalities having the ultimate "we"-feeling. WE are going to war, WE helped during the second world war, WE chose Bush, WE came to the rescue in Indonesia.. (I know this seems random, but I'll get to a point eventually)
it's like responsibility for actions over time is everyone's & no one's, no matter if the action is either good, or bad. either everyone is to blame, making it so meaningless no one is to blame, or everyone deserves praise. & that last thing sure catches on.

the attitude surprises me every single time. especially because America is such a collection of nationalities & the people don't share such an incredibly long history together. a population is defined & forms a group by having a land in common, a culture, a history, customs & traditions... of all countries I've ever been to, American people have the least in common with each other & still they form the most tight population I've ever seen.

I mean, of course I speak of "we as Dutchies", when talking about my country on this board, because it's so international & all, but there are two ways of saying things; "we colonised South Africa" & "South Africa used to be Dutch", "Curacao is ours" & "Curacao is a part of the Netherlands", "we legalised weed" & "weed is legalised in the Netherlands". it's kind of personalising objective, general observations. see what I mean?

I know two different families, that are Dutch, but have been living in America for a long looong time. observing the differences is one of the most interesting things out there. one family being my own. second; very close friends of my parents, who are almost like family to us. when it comes to my own, there's an older generation, that ran away from the second world war just in time (being Jewish & all) & a younger generation, my uncle (who isn't Jewish), who went to America for business, met a new wife & pretty much never came back (except for the funeral of his parents, of course).

the older generation adopted, naturally, a very American attitude, life style & everything. but they still in some ways are very Dutch. they do that "we"-thing all the time too, but at the same time they seem to realise to how far the concept "we" can be stretched. unconsciously they selectively adopted what's positive about the American culture; working hard, wanting to accomplish more, pushing yourself to the limit of your abilities, being the best you can be, walking a marathon at the age of 72.. to me that's pretty typical. in the Netherlands we always try to reach a certain level & when you're content, you're content & you pretty much don't look any further, but concentrate on what you have.

the younger generation, my uncle & his family, is American all the way. he's the ultimate negative stereotype American business man. & damn, it's seriously annoying. his accomplishments stand for more than just his accomplishments. they stand for his family, his friends & on a bigger scale for his entire country. he's.. everything but humble. I know him & I knew my grandparents & in presence of other people, he exaggerates anything & is a blown up caricature of himself.

about my parents' friends; he was one of the top guys of the World Bank, so he traveled around quite a bit for his work. the most important given being for his work. so, pretty obligatory, if you want to keep your job. he quit his job recently, because an extremely high function in the World Bank has been given to a very fanatic Bush supporter. it goes against the man's morals & he was near the normal (Dutch) age to retire anyway. he can't work side by side with the guy, so he can't work. he loves America, how history is made every day (it's a pretty clean slate), the way America is with foreigners, how Americans are competitive, compassionate & loyal, but he can be very critical towards the country he's spend almost half of his life in. there are a lot of things to love about America & he knows, sees & acknowledges that, but there are also things he won't accept.

as I said; my family is partly Dutch, party German, partly Jewish. but America has sucked them in, despite any background, in a way that they became more or less entirely, completely American (depending on what age they were, when they moved away & most importantly; for what reason they moved away). the American attitude is attractive & catchy. you're all in it together, you form a solid group, when one is in pain, "we" are in pain.

maybe it's a substitute for not having a long history in common, original nationalities in common & many old traditions in common. everything they got that they share to glue the population together is so strong. pain - when the twin towers were floored, or when Katrina wiped away New Orleans. victory - when Lance Armstrong didn't only beat cancer, but also every single racing cyclist. worries - about those who were sent to Iraq. & I feel religion is one of these things. partly the charm of religion is that religion ties groups together, that's just how it is & it isn't any different in America. religion does tie the religious American population together & as them all being a part of the "we" they're fanatic about, America is pretty fanatic about religion. so well, God bless America.

Llamas
11-13-2006, 05:14 AM
Wow, took you a long time to get to the point! But yes. Americans find something they like and cling to it like nobody's business. I've never seen another country that gets so into sports that they hurt people who support different teams.

Yes, other countries lack religious tolerance to the point that people are killed for not sharing their religious beliefs. But for such an advanced country like the US, there's no excuse that a few weeks ago two gay guys were beaten to death after a party on my campus for being gay. Or when you hear about the mother who killed her children because Jesus told her to. When Wisconsin voted on the gay marriage ban last week, an old woman was overheard saying that she "voted so that them damn homos can't get married". Why do people here love to seperate them from others?

I think the biggest reason I feel so strongly about this is because my mother embodies all of this. She refers to all born again christians that she chooses to agree with as "we", and when the 2004 election came about, she "made sure" I was voting republican. I asked why I needed to vote republican, and she said it was because "they believe in the same things we do". I said "who's we?" and she said "people who are born again". At that point, I was not ready to tell her I was agnostic, but that's beside the point. She also sees the US as righteous and GW Bush as a righteous and God-filled man. She tells me about her prayers to God where she asks him to "protect us (the US) from those terrorist-types and other God-hating nations."

Through my mom I've met a lot of people like her. And they greatly disgust me. There are so many of them here, and while other countries are considered more religious, they often don't know better, and only do it because that was how they were raised- not because they CHOOSE to do so.

Paint_It_Black
11-13-2006, 05:26 AM
Too long, didn't read.

Llamas
11-13-2006, 05:29 AM
Too long, didn't read.

Too gay, no sex.

Paint_It_Black
11-13-2006, 05:36 AM
awww, you used to be such a sweet girl. This place has corrupted you.

Llamas
11-13-2006, 05:43 AM
I'm still a sweet girl. :(

darea
11-13-2006, 05:51 AM
I dont give a fuck how whether I have more american than canadians friends, its just I know more canadians its not got anything to do with the fact that they're canadians or americans, okay I can just take out that last line if it bothered you and and I could change the name of the thread to just something like what do you think of religious maniacs in the us?

ninthlayer
11-13-2006, 05:53 AM
There are so many of them here, and while other countries are considered more religious, they often don't know better, and only do it because that was how they were raised- not because they CHOOSE to do so.
Because, you know, it's not even remotely possible that the religious zealots that you just explained were raised that way. I mean, obviously, they just woke up one day and decided that they were cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

I grew up (loosely) in the Pentecostal church (No, not the sing/dancing black version of it, the fire and brimestone WASP version of it). I was taught all manners of religious bigotry, but was also taught by my parents that it's bullshit (they didn't go to church, I was forced into going with my step-grandparents). Had I grew up in a completely Pentecostal family I may have ended up a religious bigot also.

Bah, I might continue this when I get home. I'm off work.

Llamas
11-13-2006, 05:57 AM
Because, you know, it's not even remotely possible that the religious zealots that you just explained were raised that way. I mean, obviously, they just woke up one day and decided that they were cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

Almost all of the people I know like that practically brag about the fact that they weren't raised like that. Most of them love to tell their stories about how they were raised agnostic or catholic or with atheist parents. A lot of them talk about how they "tried" several religions before they tried christianity. A lot of them were born christian and then denied christianity for years and went back to it. Almost all of the psycho christians I know in the US chose to be that way.

I, on the other hand, was raised under these things. I was forced to go to church and used to be racist and homophobic when I was quite young. I was much less so in highschool, and then in college I came to my senses.

ninthlayer
11-13-2006, 06:37 AM
I dont give a fuck how whether I have more american than canadians friends, its just I know more canadians its not got anything to do with the fact that they're canadians or americans, okay I can just take out that last line if it bothered you and and I could change the name of the thread to just something like what do you think of religious maniacs in the us?
b-r-i-t-f-r-a-n-c-o-f-a-g


Almost all of the people I know like that practically brag about the fact that they weren't raised like that. Most of them love to tell their stories about how they were raised agnostic or catholic or with atheist parents. A lot of them talk about how they "tried" several religions before they tried christianity. A lot of them were born christian and then denied christianity for years and went back to it.
I guess that throws out my argument in those peoples' case. It doesn't, however, nullify the fact that a lot of American religious bigots/zealots were brought up to be as such.


Almost all of the psycho christians I know in the US chose to be that way.
As compared to the psycho-christians you know outside of the US, gg.


I, on the other hand, was raised under these things. I was forced to go to church and used to be racist and homophobic when I was quite young. I was much less so in highschool, and then in college I came to my senses.
Sellout.

note: I like how you group Catholics with Atheists and Agnostics. Big fucking comedy to be found there(kek).

JoY
11-13-2006, 06:44 AM
I've never seen another country that gets so into sports that they hurt people who support different teams.


uhhh. I have. *clears throat*

anway, people are morons. & like you said; they move in herds & cling on things that help them to form a solid group.

the way the entire country responded to the Twin Towers being floored.. doesn't that reduce the actual pain & trauma of those who lost someone, or who were there to fucking zero? suddenly everyone's in pain & the traumatised people are repeatedly in the spotlight to literally share their pain with the entire country, because the community & its feelings is the bigger picture, a greater good & more important. everyone's nodding & crying - traumatised, or not - because after all it's the entire population that's affected by this.

the funny thing is, the ones who were in any way traumatised by 9/11 WANT to share their story & want that spotlight for what's happened to them & what it means to them. every single one of them, it seems. & all of them are best buds with Oprah. the fact even advertising stuff was made, like; "DON'T FORGET!!!!! *picture of two Twin Towers collapsing*" holy shit. it's so fanatical & hysterical.

everything is so blown out of proportion, enlarged as much as humanly possible.. it's difficult to take things like 9/11 still seriously. when you start exaggerating things to underline the gravity, so everyone understands the serious nature of an event, you're going to have to keep that up to make the gravity of anything else clear in relation to things in the past. or else people are going to think it's nothing. it sets not only a trend, but a standard.

everything that bonds Americans is enlarged. at least, in the Netherlands I don't think it ever would've been possible to get the people to react in a way the Americans reacted to 9/11. they acted like there would've been no hope left, if there hadn't been a God & Bush. & Oprah. even God is blown out of proportion. so maybe, like I said, it functions as a substitute for not having so many other things in common. but it's crazy how hysterical people can get.

Llamas
11-13-2006, 06:45 AM
I guess that throws out my argument in those peoples' case. It doesn't, however, nullify the fact that a lot of American religious bigots/zealots were brought up to be as such.
Certainly not all of them chose it. However, in the US we are brought up (especially in the northern half of the country) to see both sides, and even if we're raised one way or the other, we still have the choice. People in a lot of other countries don't ever know the other side. They know one religion and that religion only. It's un-heard of to be agnostic or atheist.



As compared to the psycho-christians you know outside of the US, gg.
Good point... all the non US people I know are not psycho christian.



Sellout. I know. :( fucking democrats and their crazy persuasion.


note: I like how you group Catholics with Atheists and Agnostics. Big fucking comedy to be found there(kek).
I did that because every born again christian I have ever met believe that catholicism is as "horrible" and "screwed up" as being agnostic and atheist. They classify all three in the same group (most of them seem to hate catholicism more than agnosticism, actually), and I was talking about things they said... so it worked there.

JoY
11-13-2006, 07:41 AM
Too long, didn't read.

Too gay, no sex.

awww, you used to be such a sweet girl. This place has corrupted you.

oh man, that was great.



I grew up (loosely) in the Pentecostal church (No, not the sing/dancing black version of it, the fire and brimestone WASP version of it). I was taught all manners of religious bigotry, but was also taught by my parents that it's bullshit (they didn't go to church, I was forced into going with my step-grandparents). Had I grew up in a completely Pentecostal family I may have ended up a religious bigot also.

yes, I fully agree with your point. but why the hell does America have such an insanely huge community of extremely religious people, fully depending & leaning on the concept of God? worlds would fall apart entirely, if there came a scientific theory that proved God doesn't exist.

through time theories like these, that gave God's heavenly work a logical, scientific explanation involving natural forces, were condemned, refused & pushed away as long as possible, until it was undeniable. Americans weren't an exception staying loyal to their belief in God & their inner faith that it's still Him that has produced everything they live of.

but seriously, America NOW is an exception the way they practice religion. religions we know here are brought into practice in America in a way I wouldn't recognise them, if my life depended on it. I was raised as the granddaughter of a minister, went to a Christian school & everything, even voluntarily went to church with other families to see what it was like. but it's nothing like anything you have over there. the fanatism you just described, that blinds you.. even the most religious families I know over here (& I know quite a few, my boyfriend's family for starters) aren't so.. possessed. when people are that fanatic about something, we consider it a sect, a cult, something that endangers free speech, an organisation that tries to possess their followers like they are the religion & nothing but the religion. we consider it to be, well, insane.

(notice my use of "we", lolz)



note: I like how you group Catholics with Atheists and Agnostics. Big fucking comedy to be found there(kek).

as for this & llamas reply;
my boyfriend & I were teasing each other one time. (well, we tease each other pretty often, but anyway; ) he knows I was brought up in an originally Protestant family & after I jokingly say; "asshole", he suddenly he replies; "you heathen *chucklechuckle*". I was like; "*raised eyebrow* ..say what?". he suddenly became all shy (geek) & stuttered; "well, you know, *moving around in discomfort* me being Catholic & you being Protestant... in theory, of course..".

it took a while before I'd shaken the feeling of a real nasty taste after biting in something gone bad, but then I shrugged & said; "pape" & moved on.

(the word "pape" exists in French & Dutch, but does it exist in English? what do you guys say, then? as a word to mock someone for his/her catholicism?)

calichix
11-13-2006, 08:25 AM
I love you so much, babe. not for sucking up, or whatever, & not like I'm sucking up, but you're rational, down to earth & critical, even towards yourself & what involves you. that's just awesome. even if I don't agree, which isn't the case now, I appreciate you think for yourself.

Americans are (GENERALLY) pretty much insane for anything they believe in & stand for. that's the ultimate definition of fanatics & they fill the shoes of that definition so very well, it's sometimes scary. American history is interesting. it's not very long, but it's interesting. America is a collection of different cultures & nationalities having the ultimate "we"-feeling. WE are going to war, WE helped during the second world war, WE chose Bush, WE came to the rescue in Indonesia.. (I know this seems random, but I'll get to a point eventually)
it's like responsibility for actions over time is everyone's & no one's, no matter if the action is either good, or bad. either everyone is to blame, making it so meaningless no one is to blame, or everyone deserves praise. & that last thing sure catches on.

the attitude surprises me every single time. especially because America is such a collection of nationalities & the people don't share such an incredibly long history together. a population is defined & forms a group by having a land in common, a culture, a history, customs & traditions... of all countries I've ever been to, American people have the least in common with each other & still they form the most tight population I've ever seen.

I mean, of course I speak of "we as Dutchies", when talking about my country on this board, because it's so international & all, but there are two ways of saying things; "we colonised South Africa" & "South Africa used to be Dutch", "Curacao is ours" & "Curacao is a part of the Netherlands", "we legalised weed" & "weed is legalised in the Netherlands". it's kind of personalising objective, general observations. see what I mean?

I know two different families, that are Dutch, but have been living in America for a long looong time. observing the differences is one of the most interesting things out there. one family being my own. second; very close friends of my parents, who are almost like family to us. when it comes to my own, there's an older generation, that ran away from the second world war just in time (being Jewish & all) & a younger generation, my uncle (who isn't Jewish), who went to America for business, met a new wife & pretty much never came back (except for the funeral of his parents, of course).

the older generation adopted, naturally, a very American attitude, life style & everything. but they still in some ways are very Dutch. they do that "we"-thing all the time too, but at the same time they seem to realise to how far the concept "we" can be stretched. unconsciously they selectively adopted what's positive about the American culture; working hard, wanting to accomplish more, pushing yourself to the limit of your abilities, being the best you can be, walking a marathon at the age of 72.. to me that's pretty typical. in the Netherlands we always try to reach a certain level & when you're content, you're content & you pretty much don't look any further, but concentrate on what you have.

the younger generation, my uncle & his family, is American all the way. he's the ultimate negative stereotype American business man. & damn, it's seriously annoying. his accomplishments stand for more than just his accomplishments. they stand for his family, his friends & on a bigger scale for his entire country. he's.. everything but humble. I know him & I knew my grandparents & in presence of other people, he exaggerates anything & is a blown up caricature of himself.

about my parents' friends; he was one of the top guys of the World Bank, so he traveled around quite a bit for his work. the most important given being for his work. so, pretty obligatory, if you want to keep your job. he quit his job recently, because an extremely high function in the World Bank has been given to a very fanatic Bush supporter. it goes against the man's morals & he was near the normal (Dutch) age to retire anyway. he can't work side by side with the guy, so he can't work. he loves America, how history is made every day (it's a pretty clean slate), the way America is with foreigners, how Americans are competitive, compassionate & loyal, but he can be very critical towards the country he's spend almost half of his life in. there are a lot of things to love about America & he knows, sees & acknowledges that, but there are also things he won't accept.

as I said; my family is partly Dutch, party German, partly Jewish. but America has sucked them in, despite any background, in a way that they became more or less entirely, completely American (depending on what age they were, when they moved away & most importantly; for what reason they moved away). the American attitude is attractive & catchy. you're all in it together, you form a solid group, when one is in pain, "we" are in pain.

maybe it's a substitute for not having a long history in common, original nationalities in common & many old traditions in common. everything they got that they share to glue the population together is so strong. pain - when the twin towers were floored, or when Katrina wiped away New Orleans. victory - when Lance Armstrong didn't only beat cancer, but also every single racing cyclist. worries - about those who were sent to Iraq. & I feel religion is one of these things. partly the charm of religion is that religion ties groups together, that's just how it is & it isn't any different in America. religion does tie the religious American population together & as them all being a part of the "we" they're fanatic about, America is pretty fanatic about religion. so well, God bless America.


a thundering good read. but if you think americans didn't retain their culture, you should go to Hoboken, New Jersey and talk to some of the people whose families were sort of irish 200 years ago. the other day I was listening to a sicilian guy (by heritage) yarble about the old country, as if he'd ever been there. then again, most californians (apart from mexicans) unless they're jews have no culture whatsoever, so depending on your location, you're absolutely right about americans. the differences between states is so vast it's hard to lump america together as a "they" or a "we". but we do it anyway. and that is weird.

Llamas
11-13-2006, 08:36 AM
a thundering good read. but if you think americans didn't retain their culture, you should go to Hoboken, New Jersey and talk to some of the people whose families were sort of irish 200 years ago. the other day I was listening to a sicilian guy (by heritage) yarble about the old country, as if he'd ever been there. then again, most californians (apart from mexicans) unless they're jews have no culture whatsoever, so depending on your location, you're absolutely right about americans. the differences between states is so vast it's hard to lump america together as a "they" or a "we". but we do it anyway. and that is weird.

You make some excellent points. And in Minnesota, we're so damn scandinavian, it's not even funny. We have random expressions and a lot of people have crazy accents... and people hold very dearly to their scandinavian descent. I think that's pretty cool. I'm convinced that the east coast and the midwest are the only parts of the US that have any culture, though. :P

Mota Boy
11-13-2006, 09:16 AM
WCM, for serious? I always thought Nike was a Japanese company.
In case you were confused by the name, "Nike" is an ancient Greek word for "victory". In one famous tale, some Greek guy sprinted across the plains of Marathon to announce some Greeks had beaten some people. He staggered into town, yelled out "Nike!" and died. That's also why we run "marathons" (no, really).


Americans find something they like and cling to it like nobody's business. I've never seen another country that gets so into sports that they hurt people who support different teams.
This is, quite possibly, the worst analogy you could have used. I've never seen Americans even begin to approach the level of sports-related fanaticism I've seen while abroad, and I've been to a Jets-Patriots game. In Argentina, they have a chain-link fence patrolled with armed policemen separating fans of the opposing teams, and they let the other team's fans out of the stadium a full half hour before they let out the home team, just so there won't be a riot.


yes, I fully agree with your point. but why the hell does America have such an insanely huge community of extremely religious people, fully depending & leaning on the concept of God?

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with freedom of religion. In Europe, religion has been historically tied to the state, what with the Pope and the Anglican Church and Hapsburgs and whatnot. Religion has often been tied into national identity. And when the states started to fall and democratize, the national identity that they embodied began to realign itself, and the loss of confidence in those autocratic states led to a loss of confidence in the religion that they'd used to maintain their power. In Europe during the seventeen hundreds and whatnot, religion really was the "opiate of the masses" as the whole concept of divine right was used to indoctrinate unquestioned support of corrupt leaders. When religion is used that blatantly for political purposes, it naturally breeds cynicism. In America, that never happened. As a country born of separation between church and state, there never was that mass misuse of the church, and religiosity was allowed to thrive by itself.


Americans are (GENERALLY) pretty much insane for anything they believe in & stand for. that's the ultimate definition of fanatics & they fill the shoes of that definition so very well, it's sometimes scary.
I dunno... I've encountered a large amount of apathy in the US. You forget that we have the lowest voting rate in the Western world - in 2004, when we had the most hotly-contested election in decades, voter turnout was only in the low sixties. It's hard to make a strong case for fanaticism when Americans don't even get out to vote.

Also, you're taking impressions from across the Atlantic. Oftentimes over here we see Europeans as being fairly fanatical in their takes on certain issues such as global warming, genetically-modified foods and globalism (Jose Bove, anyone?) that barely register on the national give-a-fuck scale over here.




American history is interesting. it's not very long, but it's interesting. America is a collection of different cultures & nationalities having the ultimate "we"-feeling...
it's like responsibility for actions over time is everyone's & no one's, no matter if the action is either good, or bad. either everyone is to blame, making it so meaningless no one is to blame, or everyone deserves praise. & that last thing sure catches on.

as I said; my family is partly Dutch, party German, partly Jewish. but America has sucked them in, despite any background, in a way that they became more or less entirely, completely American (depending on what age they were, when they moved away & most importantly; for what reason they moved away). the American attitude is attractive & catchy. you're all in it together, you form a solid group, when one is in pain, "we" are in pain.

About the history - just to play devil's advocate, America is the oldest country (read: government) in the world. So we'd already been self-identifying as a nation for over seventy years when the Netherlands decided to become a constitutional monarchy. Also, I think we draw strength from diversity. The natural result of milling of religions, nationalities and ethnic groups is that the country at large can't identify with anything. What does it mean to be Dutch? What does it mean to be French? Only now, with recent immigration from Eastern Europe and, most importantly, the Middle East, are Western European countries having to come to grips with it. Traditionally you've all more or less been one religion and one ethnic group, so you've never had to look beyond to country to figure out who you are. Americans haven't had that, so we've identified with our country.

As for the "we". It's interesting... I don't quite understand why you think that we only take credit for victories, but act blameless in defeats. I've had several arguments with Americans over the legitimacy of our actions both in the past and present - in fact, they're playing out in our own government right now.

In John Steward Mill's "Utilitarianism", he specifically calls for indoctrinating people from an early age to identify themselves with a large community, so that they're own feelings of happiness or success become intertwined with the happiness and success of the state (the "state" being a general body of fellow citizens), so that we're more socially conscious. In that manner, I think the "we" attitude of which you speak is a very worthy goal to strive towards.

Look, for example, at the differences between Muslims in the US and Muslims in France - in the US, where the "we" is a fellow citizen, Muslims are, on the whole, much more integrated. In France, where "we" is usually a white, French-speaking secular Christian, Muslims haven't integrated nearly as well, have much higher levels on unemployment and greater unrest. So I'm totally down with our "we" attitude.

HornyPope
11-13-2006, 09:39 AM
Look, for example, at the differences between Muslims in the US and Muslims in France - in the US, where the "we" is a fellow citizen, Muslims are, on the whole, much more integrated. In France, where "we" is usually a white, French-speaking secular Christian, Muslims haven't integrated nearly as well, have much higher levels on unemployment and greater unrest. So I'm totally down with our "we" attitude.

This has nothing to do with the "we" attitude, though. America has a broader and more diverse background owing to its history so any minority group will be much more at ease surrounded among other minority groups, not so in France where the population is essentialy two blocks (immigrants and natives), often hostile in face of each other.
But compare America to Canada, you'll notice the Muslims have integrated better where they don't have to fit under a collective "we", however lose the requirements are.


America is the oldest country (read: government) in the world.

This is just nitpicking but I never understand on what grounds don't Americans include the British and Swiss parliaments existing and fully active hitherto.

Mota Boy
11-13-2006, 10:23 AM
This has nothing to do with the "we" attitude, though. America has a broader and more diverse background owing to its history so any minority group will be much more at ease surrounded among other minority groups, not so in France where the population is essentialy two blocks (immigrants and natives), often hostile in face of each other.
But compare America to Canada, you'll notice the Muslims have integrated better where they don't have to fit under a collective "we", however lose the requirements are.

But that's what I'm saying about France - that the French, in self-identifying as "native" (which means white, secular Christians) instead of self-identifying as a member of the nation of France, foster an environment in which immigrants can never become French, which let immigrants see themselves as outsiders and opposed, fueling the disparity.

I've always got the impression that Canadians also have the "we" attitude Bella was expressing - the identification with the country as a whole over their individual race, religion or ethnic group.


This is just nitpicking but I never understand on what grounds don't Americans include the British and Swiss parliaments existing and fully active hitherto.
Well, Cromwell's dictatorship undermines Britain's claim as a single, continuous government. I'm assuming there's some other hitch about the Swiss.

HornyPope
11-13-2006, 10:46 AM
I've always got the impression that Canadians also have the "we" attitude Bella was expressing - the identification with the country as a whole over their individual race, religion or ethnic group.

There are Canadians who may want it so, but with a third of population calling themselves Quebecer sooner than Canadian, the natives enjoying the "first nations" standing, the immigrants are free to belong to whoemever diverse group they want to be, and this in turn is what makes Canada as a whole.


Well, Cromwell's dictatorship undermines Britain's claim as a single, continuous government. I'm assuming there's some other hitch about the Swiss.

It's only a temporary hiccup in what was perhaps the worlds most progressive state of the time. Cromwell passed away, but the parliament remained.

Mota Boy
11-13-2006, 01:25 PM
P.S.: it's funny, I'm laboring under the delusion that you, mota, picture Frenchmen as wine-imbibing, moustache-sporting, béret-wearing loud individuals. Please say that I am wrong.

Oh of course not, that's a gross oversimplification!






































I also think all French eat cheese, smell bad, draw on easels and surrender in response to the slightest provocation.

Venom Symbiote
11-13-2006, 01:29 PM
This is all so ridiculous it makes me want to sing.

Americans are the most zealous sports fans? *Wayne's World voice* Yeah, right.

Like someone else said, fucking Argentinians and Brazilians, man. Their soccer players get murdered half the time for missing a kick and stuff.

And besides that, the thread's just an excuse for whiney foreigners to bitch about Americans in an attempt to make themselves feel smug and superior. America is the greatest country in the world for a reason, why can't people just accept that?

It's not arrogance if you're right.

JoY
11-13-2006, 03:34 PM
oh. so you're unnuanced all the time..

Venom Symbiote
11-13-2006, 03:39 PM
It's a popular theory, yeah. One I take issue with, but hey, whatever y'know?

HornyPope
11-13-2006, 03:41 PM
Maria, you're not exactly contradicting Mota. As opposed to America where one merely has to feel American and consider himself American, France goes way farther to impose the ideals of national unity upon its citizens. The scope is much narrower.

XYlophonetreeZ
11-13-2006, 03:49 PM
Greatest country in the world? On what merit? Governmental longevity and success? Or stupider yet, military might? I'd wager that a great majority of Americans agree with you and say it's the greatest country in the world. I've had many encounters with fellow Americans in which they assertively declare something to that effect. If I ask them why, they always say something like "Because we could nuke the hell out of all the other commie scum in the world," or else they say some vague bullshit about "freedom," whatever the hell that means.

But anyway, purely governmental/economic/military standards are stupid things to judge a country's quality. Not saying there is a perfect way, but just to insert some perspective here, the HDI (Human Development Index) is a composite of life expectancy, literacy, education, and standards of living for all countries that offers one way of comparatively measuring quality of life in countries. And you know what country came in first? Norway. And they're fucking SOCIALIST. Iceland was a solid second. Australia happened to be third. I'm not a fan of Australia (like, as you have pointed out, many Americans are). In fact I think it pretty much sucks from what I know about it. The point isn't that this HDI thing is perfect, it just goes to show that there are different measures for how "good" countries are. Or perhaps, no measures at all. Different countries are good to different people. It doesn't make you wrong to like the US despite being Australian, and it doesn't make the Australia-loving Americans wrong. I just disagree with you and them both to some degree.

Whatever "quality of life" is, however intangible, I think it's a helluvalot better measure of how good a country is than government longevity or military prowess.

Venom Symbiote
11-13-2006, 04:00 PM
Oh, no doubt, I know the U.S. isn't ranked highest on the HDI by a long shot. What is it, eighth or something?

But, yeah, compensating for that (not much to compensate for, it's still among the highest when observed in context), it still has the most successful economy in the world, the best overall higher-education system, leads humanity in scientific developments and medical procedures, and is the biggest champion of democracy in the modern world. (Yes, I know modern democracy wasn't invented as such in America, but it was popularized, it's still the most shining example, historically).

The U.S., like it or not, is basically the peak of humanity as far as advancing the species goes. That's kind of how I look at it. Australia and New Zealand may be ranked higher on the HDI, but we haven't contributed to the world (and race, I guess) anywhere near on the same scale as you guys have. Northern European countries are ranked higher too, and they've contributed more than we small Pacific nations, but still mainly applying to themselves. They're specialists, you guys are "jacks of all trades" of the human experience, if you will.

I know this is a rambling hastily-constructed explanation, so forgive that. Just trying to point out I'm not basing this on military might. Although, yes, I guess in a sense that could be considered a minor addition to the argument. I'm talking more human development through education, science, new-frontier space exploration, medical advances, etc. America may have corruption, but it's all relative. You've all still done more for anyone and everyone in the past century than any other country can lay claim to.

Seriously, I don't know how this can be disputed. Although just about every European on this board inevitably will.

JoY
11-13-2006, 04:25 PM
calichix; you make excellent points, but I guess *reads back* that's exactly what llamas said. :]

Mota, I never said the "we"-thing was necessarily a negative point. I said it was fine, right? I just said "we" can't be stretched to unlimited length. you have a "we're all in it together" kinda thing going on there & that's great. Americans, as I see them, form a very solid, strong, confident group. but well, maybe it's just me, but I hate fanatism. sure, I'm fanatic about things, passionate & all that jazz. you know me. & maybe my definition of fanatism is just different & do I define something as being fanatic a whole lot sooner/quicker than you would, but in America everything's taken to a next level - especially if we're talking about things that can bond the population - to a point it's blown out of proportion, like I said before. also religion & the way it's practiced.

you said it's because of freedom of religion. why would you have to take the concept of religion to the level of complete irrationality, because you've got freedom of religion? because you've got the freedom to do so, you do so? I experience a whole lot of freedom in the Netherlands & there's pretty much nothing restricting me, meaning I don't feel limited in what I can, or can't do, because what I can't do I wouldn't do anyway. still, I maintain a certain level of rationality & with me about 92% of the people who are capable of rationality. & again, I've never seen religions I know here, being practiced the way they are there.

I also didn't say people don't take responsibility for what they do wrong. I said that with the "we"-thing, they do take responsibility for their actions if they turn out bad/wrong, together with a massive group of other people.

*sigh* what I said.. it's something I've observed being there, knowing my family, knowing my parents' friends & being on here. I know I'm in a pretty vulnerable position, giving criticism & all. loads of people on this board come from the place, so are basically in a better position to judge, not to mention it's possible to tick people off by what I'm saying. add the fact I'm talking to people, at least a couple of them, who could blow me away in any discussion just like that & you've pretty much got a picture of my situation here. I just wanted to say, that one time, in another topic in Politics I wooped my own country's ass like nobody's business in a way it can't even compare to this. I'm saying what I seem to have noticed over time & I didn't even say it was good, or bad. just personal observations from, indeed, far far away.

calichix
11-13-2006, 06:18 PM
*Wayne's World voice* Yeah, right.



I don't care what they say. You're alright. <3

ilovellamas, what about the south? they have WAYYYYYYY more culture than the midwest. hullloooooo, negros. hulloooo, cajuns.

Mota Boy
11-13-2006, 06:29 PM
Mota, I never said the "we"-thing was necessarily a negative point. I said it was fine, right? I just said "we" can't be stretched to unlimited length. you have a "we're all in it together" kinda thing going on there & that's great. Americans, as I see them, form a very solid, strong, confident group. but well, maybe it's just me, but I hate fanatism.
So you're saying that the "we" issue is tantamount to fanaticism? Or just part of it? At what point is it "overstretched", to paraphrase you? I'm not asking in order to challenge you, but out of genuine curiosity.

Oh, and also - the head of the World Bank that led your family friend to quit is Paul Wolfowitz, one of the main White House proponents of invading Iraq.


you said it's because of freedom of religion... I experience a whole lot of freedom in the Netherlands & there's pretty much nothing restricting me, meaning I don't feel limited in what I can, or can't do, because what I can't do I wouldn't do anyway. still, I maintain a certain level of rationality & with me...
You're reading me completely wrong. Europeans are more secular than Americans not because of any great disparity in religious freedom at the moment, but because of history of religion in the two regions.

As for being "rational" about religion, that's a direct relationship to ones religiosity. Religion is by definition irrational. It calls for faith - belief without proof - in a higher power. To a degree, everyone who is religious is irrational, and the more religious you are, the less rational you'll be. If you believe that God exists, that God translated His thoughts to us in the Bible, that the Bible is a literal account of events, that God is currently controlling events on Earth, that there's an eternal struggle between God and the Devil played out on Earth... all of these are degrees of religiosity that cause one to be less rational. So the fact that America has a history that allowed the population to remain at a highly religious level, whereas Europe has a history that led to widespread cynicism towards religion means that Americans are going to be, on the whole, more religious and thus less rational. It's not because America is "more free" now than Europe, it's because America was "more free" than Europe two, three centuries ago.



I also didn't say people don't take responsibility for what they do wrong. I said that with the "we"-thing, they do take responsibility for their actions if they turn out bad/wrong, together with a massive group of other people.
Ah, I misread that.

Llamas
11-13-2006, 06:31 PM
And besides that, the thread's just an excuse for whiney foreigners to bitch about Americans in an attempt to make themselves feel smug and superior. America is the greatest country in the world for a reason, why can't people just accept that?

It's not arrogance if you're right.

What the fuck?? You are really quite ignorant. I'm bitching about America as much as anyone here. And guess where I've lived my ENTIRE LIFE? omgtheunitedstatesofamerica! Yes, I'm just a whiney foreigner who wants to bitch about the country I live in so that I feel superior to this country... NO. America is NOT the greatest country in the world. Are you in college? If you are, or if you're going, you'd better be a fucking business student.

*disclaimer* I'm not saying all business students are like this... but most of the people who ARE like this tend to be business people.

EDIT: or some nasty polar politician.

JoY
11-13-2006, 06:54 PM
So you're saying that the "we" issue is tantamount to fanaticism? Or just part of it? At what point is it "overstretched", to paraphrase you? I'm not asking in order to challenge you, but out of genuine curiosity.
the "we" issue seems to be so strong, because things that bond you guys are made so huge, they seem to have a stronger effect. the whole "blown out of proportion"-point. that's why I mentioned 9/11 & everyone's reaction, because I wouldn't mention it otherwise. that's seriously dragging up some old shit. to me, that is. I don't have to live in the middle of memorials & all that jazz. speaking of which, people are still reacting to it, so to you it's probably never going to be old news. that's pretty much exactly what I mean.

you can't apply the term "we" to everyone & anyone under every & any circumstances. I think it's fine when you say; "WE were attacked that day of 9/11". I mean, you weren't attacked personally, but your country & thus your "we" was. but the "we" can be abused pretty easily. like when Bush says; "WE are going to war". isn't he the only president that's never served the army? even if he did, he's still sending out people, who are going to risk their life for that "WE are going to war".

my roommate's often like; "LET'S GO GET CHOCOLATE!" & I'm like; "TOTALLY!!!" & run upstairs to get my coat. then I come back all set & ready, she's still lying in bed with a cigarette hanging from the corner of her mouth, saying; "Bel? when I said "let us", I kinda meant that you're going to buy us some chocolate *wide grin*"

I'm such a sucker for chocolate.:(
but do you get my point?


Oh, and also - the head of the World Bank that led your family friend to quit is Paul Wolfowitz, one of the main White House proponents of invading Iraq.

sounds like a friendly figure by that information. so what kind of cookie does he seem to be?



You're reading me completely wrong. Europeans are more secular than Americans not because of any great disparity in religious freedom at the moment, but because of history of religion in the two regions.

As for being "rational" about religion, that's a direct relationship to ones religiosity. Religion is by definition irrational. It calls for faith - belief without proof - in a higher power. To a degree, everyone who is religious is irrational, and the more religious you are, the less rational you'll be. If you believe that God exists, that God translated His thoughts to us in the Bible, that the Bible is a literal account of events, that God is currently controlling events on Earth, that there's an eternal struggle between God and the Devil played out on Earth... all of these are degrees of religiosity that cause one to be less rational. So the fact that America has a history that allowed the population to remain at a highly religious level, whereas Europe has a history that led to widespread cynicism towards religion means that Americans are going to be, on the whole, more religious and thus less rational. It's not because America is "more free" now than Europe, it's because America was "more free" than Europe two, three centuries ago.

yeah, I kind of knew what you meant, but I still wanted to say that bit anyway. I'm an evil, horrible person. either way, I'm just throwing around theories, pretty obviously. they're based on observations, but hell, they're still theories. & your theory right here sounds very, very logical to me. *scratches head* besides the fact it's all just so irrational, it makes my head burst. (& I'm talking about the fact people would follow a religion that totally fucking sucks. I'd pick the God, that offers me the most, but that's just me ;) ) but your government never acted in "the name of God" & shit? never abused religion to justify things, or get things done, which might aswell have resulted in a bad experience - naturally, for the entire country? I thought it still does that all the time. God is dragged into so many things, if I judge from the interviews & speeches I see.

your theory can go hand in hand with my theory, by the way. *wink nudge*


Ah, I misread that.

at least you did it accidently. ;p <3

Mota Boy
11-13-2006, 07:03 PM
That's the most biased view I've ever come across -also the most common from foreigners. What immigrants are you talking about, mota? Those who refuse to integrate? Those who wear the tchador? Those who throw bombs on the police & eggs on teachers?
Yes, you've just done wonders to dispel my incredibly biased view that the French are bad at integrating foreigners. They "refuse to integrate", eh? Well, we have a fair amount of immigrant Muslims in the US and they don't seem to have a problem integrating here. In fact, in many largely-Islamic neighborhoods, the median family income is above average.

My town, interestingly enough, actually has the largest Kurdish population outside the Middle East, as well as plenty other immigrants, and they're not egging teachers (one of my friends is a teacher and she says one of her biggest problems is them hitting on her).


(& by the by, love the "some greek", "some greeks", "nayke"; learn to be precise, the way you are when you give book references, same goes for history).
I wasn't writing a dissertation on Greek history, I was doling out a factoid on the origin of the name "Nike", and thus the exact details were irrelevant and the language was intentionally casual. Don't get your panties in a bunch.


Catholicism, in the Constitution, is not the religion of state, merely "the religion of the majority of Frenchmen"...What we do not tolerate is a Muslim girl wearing a headscarf at school. Which shows she doesn't want to integrate...
Again, you aren't exactly disproving my point. I know a fair amount of Muslims here, including several that wear headscarves (while in school!!!11). We don't care. You see, you blame her for "not wanting to integrate" when "integration" means forcing her to take off her headscarf so that she'll look like the rest of France.

See? Your model of what it means to be "French" has significantly higher standards than what we generally think of as being "American". Hell, even whether or not schools should teach only in English is a hotly debated topic here. Over there, the word "cheeseburger" is illegal. We sent up a cry when a Chinese company wanted to buy an American oil company when China was seen as a major rival and oil seemed to be a vital commodity. Y'all went apeshit when it was rumored that Kraft would buy Dannon. Wacky examples, but they display how protective the French are of their traditional national identity, and thus how unfriendly they are to any foreigners who might challenge it.

JoY
11-13-2006, 07:34 PM
Don't get your panties in a bunch.

<333

it happens to be that today my roommate & I saw a debate on television about headscarfs & basically integration. votings are going to be soon, so every party is trying to convince some more voters last minute. a woman we all resent (but that's besides the point) was representing the right wing party I've voted before in my life. (when I was 18, I think, because I always doubt between that party & the middle party, so I don't even really remember) she said it should be illegal here to wear a burka. I saw my roommate nod.

wait a minute here. we're talking about the Netherlands. we smoke marijuana & think that's a-okay, a burka is suddenly totally out of this world insane madness we have to forbid from now on? wow wow wow, I'm not at all so sure about this. it's part of their religion. we like the concept of free speech & freedom of religion, so why not? they don't have to become Dutch, it'd just be nice if they mingled some more.

Little_Miss_1565
11-14-2006, 05:54 AM
Mmm, yeah, totally fantastic, considering your model of institutionalized racism and religious intolerance. Most of the big idiots on this board are French; by your model of excusing repression of a whole group because of so-called past experiences, can we repress all the French and try to make them communicate in a sane and comprehensible way, or not communicate at all? Integration, after all, you know.

Little_Miss_1565
11-14-2006, 06:05 AM
I think my point just whizzed over your head. Is it because all the A-rabs are messing up your nice white country?

JoY
11-14-2006, 06:12 AM
wait a minute, Maria.. when he says America is pretty good in integrating migrants, I believe him straigh away. or maybe it's not so much that I just believe him on his word, but that I was also very impressed with what those friends of my parents' told about integration in America. now the man of the family doesn't work there anymore it's uncertain he'll move to the Netherlands, because he after all still lives there. but he's also Dutch. well, it's complicated.

I'd seen Americans here, the stupid kind, be very strongly anti foreigners, especially Mexicans, if I remember correctly. he said they were stealing their jobs & all that jazz & I was thinking; "they have jobs??!". here they get by on government money & whine that it isn't enough. in America.. they've got to get a job to get by, like everybody else. want to integrate them? don't treat them any differently. perfect! & you won't create a for money whining bunch of foreigners, who says they've got it so terrible in the Netherlands with the money we give them & they have to pay so much for space to live it's discrimination... even the people that we fought for, so they can stay, & who are friends to us say this. one time my mother almost wanted to scream; "go to Amsterdam, right now. visit Isabella there, take a look at where she lives (Mota, you've seen it) & ask her what she pays for it." they pay the same as everybody else & less. they get money to get by with, but instead of seeking a job, a lot of them are depending on that money & think it's money to live on. (it's actually enough to sort of live on, too) we have an actual term; "cuddlemoroccan". it going way out of hand & it isn't normal anymore.

either way, I know France is impossible to get into (friends of us were sent out the same day they got in, whoop, back to Armenia) & Switzerland isn't even an option.

Little_Miss_1565
11-14-2006, 07:32 AM
that islam is the religion of the majority of jailbirds & ex-jailbirds in your country as well? You didn't talk about that, did you? In my country, Muslim generally equates Arab, equates resentment... there is many a reason why this resentment has been fuelled in many Arabs living in France, mostly to do with past history, & not with our integration model.

I've had Muslim friends in my life. Most of whom keep the Ramadan, all religious prescriptions (barring the prayers, perhaps, & the pilgrimage), wear lots of shiny gold religious jewels. None of whom is a towel-head. They speak good French, love France, usually will hate the National Front (extremist right-wing, xenophobic party) & some of them have stopped studying Arabic, but are bilingual in their arab dialect anyway. .

Oh no, Maria, I read what you wrote very carefully. There's really no difference between your feelings towards Muslims and the white Christian conservatives of the United States. What you have to say about your Muslim friends is akin to American racists' "but some of my best friends are black."

Little_Miss_1565
11-14-2006, 08:59 AM
Ah yes, I'm a major Francophobe, clearly, just because I think you're a wretched bitch.

Your mother was born in Algeria, eh? Then I guess you're allowed to say WHATEVER YOU WANT about Muslims! If YOU think someone is a "towelhead," then that MUST be god's honest truth! Goodness me, then, I hope all Muslims abandon their culture in favor of white imperialism!

Little_Miss_1565
11-14-2006, 09:11 AM
Haha. You must have me confused with someone else.

How's your sense of martyrdom and persecution doing? Working overtime, I take it?

Mota Boy
11-14-2006, 11:19 AM
Maria, the simplest thing I can say is that after reading post after post of yours in which you try to explain integration in France, you're doing nothing but helping my case.

calichix
11-14-2006, 11:33 AM
The only way I can respond to this is to say I'm really glad everyone doesn't think like you. You're not even trying to be funny! You are, deep down in your very soul, mean. I can't get over it.

JohnnyNemesis
11-14-2006, 11:37 AM
yakyakyak.

So sorry to have pricked your little feelings when I said "towel-heads". So strange... you're one of the persons who wouldn't think twice about calling a French person a "frog".

You're an exceptional brand of stupid, Maria. Fucking idiot.

Little_Miss_1565
11-14-2006, 12:58 PM
Edit: & your Americana. Your mega-churches, with stores & such. Your media-preachers. Your crusaders-politicians. You think that's normal? You think that's decent? In my opinion & in the opinion of millions of Frenchmen (& certainly of all my friends), that's indecent, dishonest. .

Maria, though you're obviously very fond of the Imperial We and speaking for all of France, Mota most certainly does not embody, speak for, or endorse the actions of all other Americans. Nor do I. Now please quit projecting your insane worldview on others, eh? Or how about you just keep on making wild and baseless accusations, because it's fucking hilarious.

Mota Boy
11-14-2006, 07:12 PM
I guess I can point out all the little missteps you took in your last post, such as the fact that I never said anything about the word "towel head", that I've never referred to you as a "frog"; that I did, however, explicitly state in this thread that I was agnostic. Perhaps I could even go through yet another elaborate comparison between the United States and France, and explain specifically which policies I support and which I do not and my reasons behind them. However...

Maria, the simplest thing I can say is that after reading post after post of yours in which you try to explain integration in France, you're doing nothing but helping 1565's case.


I think you're a wretched bitch.

calichix
11-15-2006, 10:13 AM
Kudos for those Mexicans desperate to enter, against whom you're building a high-defence wall, & who've died in their hundreds trying to cross the Rio Grande & the desert. Yes, you're such a welcoming nation. And for those who do enter, what do they get? Jobs in the maquiladoras? What else? If they don't do the junk jobs, who will? On one part, the qualified immigrants, on the other, the dross.

oh shut the fuck up, maria you don't know what you're talking about. 5.3 million live and work here who have illegally crossed the border without dying in the desert or crossing the rio grande, if that helps to ease the pain in your bleeding heart. when I lived in the barrio, most of my friends were mexican immigrants. they lived comfortably, they went to public school, they got their lunch for free, and their mothers made more on welfare than mine did working full time as a nurse. the mothers could be on welfare because the fathers weren't "legitimately" a part of the californian workforce. it's not like they come to be brain surgeons, they come to use their skills here for much better pay than they got in mexico. I don't even know why I'm explaining this to you. words cannot express how much you need to get dickslapped.

Sin Studly
11-15-2006, 12:58 PM
Hahaha, Maria is a wretched insane cunt!

Paint_It_Black
11-15-2006, 01:06 PM
And to think these other poor fools wasted their time crafting entire paragraphs.

T-6005
11-15-2006, 01:47 PM
Maria has no right to speak for France, obviously, and the fact that she continues to do so and to put her personal views as those of the country infuriate me. She's got the same opinions as a certain group of people, it's true - however, those people just happen to take themselves seriously enough to declaim about nonsense all day and assume that they speak for the majority. It's hardly fair to come down on her for her opinions, even should I disagree with them, but after a while it begins to sound as if she's trying to give her arguments more weight by cloaking them in some sort of national identity.

There are a lot of French people out there who are deluded as to France's position on the world scale and where our right to impose our opinion is concerned - and it's those people who believe that not only does their opinion stand for everyone's, but that as "France" they have a right (or perhaps even an obligation) to stuff those opinions down everyone's throats, in part through a perceived sense of moral highground.

And seeing it is aggravating me.

JoY
11-16-2006, 06:16 AM
Maria, you seem to have misunderstood me in my last post. I don't blame you, it was pretty vague & written while tipsy.

either way, the way this discussion has developed, I want out. normally you can just leave a discussion without saying anything, but I felt the need to explicitly point it out. the nature the discussion has gotten is slightly too rotten for my taste to touch, so I'll leave you to it, chicken as I am. there's one thing I would like to say (& it's going to be long);

wearing a cross, a "Jesus is my saviour"-tshirt, a burka, a headscarf is displaying your own religion. it has absolutely nothing to do with shoving it down someone else's throat. Maria, you say you were raised in freedom in privacy. what about freedom of speech? what about freedom of simply being who you are? people can't display what they believe in anymore for what reason exactly? belief is among many things a part of a person's identity, at least that's how it's most often experienced. after all, we call those who follow Christianity "Christians", followers of the Islam are "Muslims", people who follow Catholicism "Catholics", et cetera. every single important choice/decision you make in life is based on how you were raised, on your family, your social environment, your culture, on your personality & so on.

people aren't allowed to display their true identity for the sake of all looking the same? what a boring world you strive for. do dark people have to make up their skin lighter, according to you, so it's less obvious they originally have another nationality? do they entirely have to forget their first language, the language that partially defines their background, the way they think, culture, nationality, country of origin, et cetera, & only know, speak & think in the language of the country they currently live in? does everyone in the future, if you were to decide, wear the same clothes for the sake of eliminating the social & cultural aspects of fashion & so no one will look any poorer, or richer than the other?

you know what? it's fine to acknowledge that people are different. the fact none of us is the same is what we all have in common. it's insane that so many of us are trying to become selectively blind for different colours, for different political preferences, for different religions. it's not the fact that we're different that should be wiped away, it's ignorance, the disrespect, the hatred for what you don't know, that should be wiped away.

if I say my friend is from Iran out loud in the supermarket, five heads turn in my direction, of which three white faces. what the fuck is wrong with people? if I say the word "Turk", my boyfriend hushes me out of fear someone might be offended. & with good reason, ridiculous as it is. what the fuck? I seriously don't get it. this is about acknowledging someone's background, not disrespecting it. it's about letting people in their value & acknowledging someone's identity, without judging them on basis of religion, political preference, nationality, overal identity.

people have to adjust to the country that houses them, yes. immigrants have to understand & respect the traditions, the culture, the language, the history & so on. but this also works the other way around. everyone is socially obligated to participate in the society they live in by being accepting towards each other, knowing the language & contributing to the community. wiping away every sign of being different, every sign of origin & identity to succeed in a country is not how this is established & it purely is imprisonment in a golden cage for everyone. it's a display of inability of acceptance, fear of what's different & disrespect towards aspects that make an important part of people's identity. language, culture, religion, history & so on form & mold people to what & who they are. respecting & accepting these aspects logically leads to respecting & accepting anyone as a person. not allowing to let people display any of these aspects, is logically the exact opposite.

Sin Studly
11-16-2006, 12:08 PM
And to think these other poor fools wasted their time crafting entire paragraphs.

And they're still doing it. Those poor, pitiful fools.

Venom Symbiote
11-16-2006, 03:15 PM
Pssh, I'm so more French than any of you.

Pssh.

Llamas
11-16-2006, 03:19 PM
lol @ the french (fags).

T-6005
11-17-2006, 06:13 AM
I read the first line and I'm guessing - is that an English translation of Renaud's "Mon HLM"?

T-6005
11-17-2006, 07:35 AM
la Ségo elle a gagné les élections du PS. Hourra! Pff. & I got to work on European law now. I'm sick & cold.
I had no idea there was a chance in hell of her losing.

I've never been a big fan of the Beaujolais Nouveau, and I couldn't say why.

78 Water
11-17-2006, 08:00 AM
To me, it seems like America is getting less religious as time goes by. Do you guys think that in a couple thousand years when we have evolved majorley and made very important discovereis, that people will just forget about relegion, leave it behind, and not have it anymore?

Little_Miss_1565
11-17-2006, 08:54 AM
LMFAO. Maria gets pwned and then comes back to the thread after DAYS to completely change the subject. Funny thing about a text-based environment--everything said sticks around.

calichix
11-17-2006, 04:08 PM
^^oh, thanks little lady. I didn't want to put that observation into words so I was just going to give a simple, "You shouldn't be alive."

Venom Symbiote
11-17-2006, 06:26 PM
You know who are pretty religious nutbag-y? The Italians.

Mhmm.

Little_Miss_1565
11-17-2006, 06:28 PM
Them and their crazy Vatican!

Venom Symbiote
11-17-2006, 07:53 PM
Greasy bible-toting bastards.

Sin Studly
11-18-2006, 03:22 AM
Pope-loving greaseball guineas.

JohnnyNemesis
11-18-2006, 09:30 AM
Hahaha, Maria is a wretched insane cunt!


Pope-loving greaseball guineas.

I miss you inside of me, Justin.

Paint_It_Black
11-18-2006, 01:11 PM
There's a little bit of him inside most of us.

calichix
11-18-2006, 11:59 PM
more than a little, believe you me.

FuckingHardcoreBitch
11-29-2006, 05:16 PM
well…america has a lot people living there…so a lot of different people…american friends i know are not jesus lovers…but wa kinda have the same "feeling" about life so you can explain why WE are not jesus lovers (i'm not american btw, but i htink you've already guessed that…)

here's a proof, an american freidn uses bible pages (cuz their thin) to roll joints when he's out of paper…lol… ok don't be offended that's not the intent…

what i mean is that people (in general) need to relax about religion… the thing is some people kill for religion…ok you beleive in something , i don't, have fun of me , i'll have fun on you, deal with it…extremism sucks that's all I wanna say…

jesus lovers in usa are no different from other jesus lovers I guess…
it's just it's a powerful country with tons of people…so you get to hear about it…

it's true there is a strong christian legacy though…"one nation under god" on bills…stuff like that…
like swearing a bible ? not that bible is crap, but how come swearing on a book legitimizes your actions / words ? but then again, it can apply to any country which would have a strong religious legacy.

anyway, don't be offended, my 2 atheist cents… by the way where's my paper…

Sin Studly
11-29-2006, 06:47 PM
I miss you inside of me, Justin.

Quit your sucking up, you stupid spic sock-spurning taco-munching bean nigger.


There's a little bit of him inside most of us.

Quit your sucking up, you stupid brit toothpaste-spurning lime-munching island monkey.


more than a little, believe you me.

It's okay when you do it.

noodlesfan
11-30-2006, 07:33 AM
The USA is not a country filled with religious freaks, for fucks sake. Compare them to Muslims.

In fact, they're not even religious freaks compared to Christian nations. Compare them to the Romanism of Latin America and Central Europe, the Coptics in Africa, the insane machete-wielding Christian fanatics in the middle east and caucasus, the crazy Orthadox nations, etc etc...

The only possible reason you could have for calling the USA a nation filled with religious freaks is if you come from an even more sterile, boring and soulless nation than them.

edit ; oh, wait....
I think the actual point was the strong influence on the government that Christianity has as far as laws for things like abortions, gay marriage, etc.

I totally agree with you about how we're incredibly tame as far as overzealous
religious nuts though.

Trying to burn copies of Snoop Dogg's records < Setting people on fire for fucking