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HornyPope
11-19-2006, 12:12 AM
Do you have to be loyal and true to the really stupid people too?

Manic Subsidal Boy
11-19-2006, 12:16 AM
Depends how I feel for the person

Izie
11-19-2006, 12:34 AM
Do they even count as people?

The answer to your question is "no" either way.

sKratch
11-19-2006, 12:38 AM
This is completely random, I know, but I just randomly recalled that you are not at all way older than me, which I always fall into thinking. We've talked about this. But we haven't talked in forever!

Tigger Army
11-19-2006, 12:48 AM
Do you have to be loyal and true to the really stupid people too?

yes, however being loyal also means you tell them when they're wrong. Loyal also means you don't help them (preferably stop them) when they are going to do something stupid.

Llamas
11-19-2006, 01:11 AM
you should be loyal and true to those you care about. why do you care about stupid people?

arak0r
11-19-2006, 01:11 AM
i try to be loyal, but usually theyre so stupid it frustrates me and i end up pissed off at them for a good while

JohnnyNemesis
11-19-2006, 01:28 AM
Loyalty implies a sense of realness too, so yes, be real along the same lines Tigger Army said. He's on to something.

My gut reaction to anyone who would disagree with me is to get the fuck over yourself.

Paint_It_Black
11-19-2006, 06:09 AM
you should be loyal and true to those you care about. why do you care about stupid people?

You can't always choose who you care about...like family. In fact, you can't even always choose your friends. Sometimes it just happens.

I think you are right when you say you should be loyal and true to those you care about. But I don't think their intelligence should come into it, as long as you care about them.

Also, ideally you shouldn't pretend to be loyal to those you actually couldn't care less about.

Izie
11-19-2006, 09:45 AM
This is completely random, I know, but I just randomly recalled that you are not at all way older than me, which I always fall into thinking. We've talked about this. But we haven't talked in forever!

We should. However, I saw your messages when I got up, and well, I was asleep when you sent them and AIM was being a bitch in the process :(

Apologiez :(

Anyway as far as the loyalty thing goes, I could never support someone's retarded ddecisions, were they to have a huge impact on me. If they're fucking up their own lives, I'd tell them they were fucking up, I'd tell them a few times, but after that... Fuck it, I'll just try to be there for them if they need me. You can't make decisions for other people.

I guess I'm not so nasty after all, huh? :(

Except for the fact that I still try to avoid stupid people.

HornyPope
11-19-2006, 10:39 AM
You can't always choose who you care about...like family. In fact, you can't even always choose your friends. Sometimes it just happens.


Yeah, that.


I think you are right when you say you should be loyal and true to those you care about. But I don't think their intelligence should come into it, as long as you care about them.

That's a brave rationale, but can you bring yourself to care about someone who's evidently not on the same page as you, who can't for his life make a smart decision, who, despite the help, insists on putting himself in the hole every time? At what point does one just... disconect?


yes, however being loyal also means you tell them when they're wrong. Loyal also means you don't help them (preferably stop them) when they are going to do something stupid.

Do you have friends Micha? Loyalty means commitement, it's not selectively supporting when you feel it's a good course of action. What's it matter if you helped or not helped stupid take its toll, the end result is you have a friend who's done himself wrong and you feel bad for it.

HeadAroundU
11-19-2006, 11:03 AM
It's not good to be loyal to stupid people. It's very old-fashioned.

Paint_It_Black
11-19-2006, 11:23 AM
That's a brave rationale, but can you bring yourself to care about someone who's evidently not on the same page as you, who can't for his life make a smart decision, who, despite the help, insists on putting himself in the hole every time? At what point does one just... disconect?


It's a matter of conscience, and as such varies by individual. My simplest answer is that everyone must do what they personally feel is right.

For me, it is ok to disconnect from someone if you no longer care for them. If their negative actions have caused you to lose whatever feeling for them you once had, it is acceptable to leave them to their fate. But if you still care for them, it is your duty to try to help them. You should never attempt to force yourself to care for someone, either you care or you don't. It is acceptable to give up on someone, and I believe on some level we usually know when this point arrives. The trick is accepting it, and not blaming ourselves.

I can use an alcoholic friend of mine as an example. For years I tried to help him. For my efforts I have been physically assaulted, verbally abused, and had my property destroyed. Eventually I realized he is no friend to me, so I have no duty to be a friend to him. But I still care, so I can't abandon him completely. These days I see him rarely, and refuse to have anything to do with him unless he's sober. I hate that he's still destroying his life, but I've accepted there is nothing I can do about it. The best thing for both of us is to have minimal contact.

That's how I see it.


It's not good to be loyal to stupid people. It's very old-fashioned.

I hate this trend of judging people mostly by perceived intelligence. Is intelligence really the most important trait anyone can possess? What about kindness, generosity and other such things?

All About Eve
11-19-2006, 11:33 AM
I have to be loyal to a lot of guys on my team, even though some of them are stupid. I'm not extremely friendly with them, but they're okay sometimes, and part of the team.

Paint_It_Black
11-19-2006, 11:46 AM
I'm not extremely friendly

That's interesting, because you do seem very friendly online.

HeadAroundU
11-19-2006, 11:48 AM
I hate this trend of judging people mostly by perceived intelligence.
The term stupid is kinda tricky. So, an intelligent people don't make stupid things?

Is intelligence really the most important trait anyone can possess?
No.

Paint_It_Black
11-19-2006, 11:53 AM
The term stupid is kinda tricky. So, an intelligent people don't make stupid things?


Are you pointing out that intelligent people can still do stupid things? Yeah, of course they can.

Are you saying it's not right to judge someone based on their intelligence, but it is ok to judge based on what we consider the intelligence of their actions? If so, I generally agree.

T-6005
11-19-2006, 12:02 PM
This is the type of question I don't ever stop to consider. I don't think about loyalty, whether from me to others or from others to me - it seems like one of those concepts that you'll act on if you're prone to it, and won't if you aren't. Thinking about it in terms of gradients and conditions seems overly complicated.

HornyPope
11-19-2006, 12:31 PM
I can use an alcoholic friend of mine as an example. For years I tried to help him. For my efforts I have been physically assaulted, verbally abused, and had my property destroyed. Eventually I realized he is no friend to me, so I have no duty to be a friend to him. But I still care, so I can't abandon him completely. These days I see him rarely, and refuse to have anything to do with him unless he's sober. I hate that he's still destroying his life, but I've accepted there is nothing I can do about it. The best thing for both of us is to have minimal contact.

I can relate.

HeadAroundU
11-19-2006, 12:34 PM
Paint_It_Black, exactly.

All About Eve
11-19-2006, 12:46 PM
That's interesting, because you do seem very friendly online.
No, I meant with those guys.

calichix
11-19-2006, 10:37 PM
sometimes really stupid people are the ones who gotchyer back the most. so certainly.

JoY
11-20-2006, 01:38 AM
everyone gets a basic form of respect to me, including a certain form of loyalty & truthfulness. I'm probably a total bimbo in some poeple's eyes & I'd want the same from them, so why not? besides, it's an attitude that's good to maintain, just so it's at least always brought into practice when appropriate. decreases the risk of misjudgements, miscommunication & fuck-ups.

arak0r
11-20-2006, 02:33 AM
id like to add, for those who seem to be loyal to people no matter how stupid they are, what happens then their stupidity causes them to royally fuck you over intentionally, or even unintentionally, would you still stay loyal?

reminds me of women that stay in abusive relationships.

JoY
11-20-2006, 10:06 AM
loyalty comes in different forms. I said I would maintain a basic respect towards everyone, most of all myself.

wheelchairman
11-20-2006, 10:17 AM
No one's said it better in the last verse of My Baby's Gone. By the Pogues.


She said go to sleep
You got to save
Your anger and rage for the living
'Cause they're no damn good in the grave
And don't waste your time in forgiving
The ones who just don't know how to behave
There's heaven and hell in the world that you live in
But I'm in a different place

Little_Miss_1565
11-20-2006, 01:02 PM
Per, Mr. McGowan is a wise man.

I feel I do not have the time or energy to waste on being loyal to someone I actively dislike because of their stupidity/selfishness/what-have-you. If someone crosses that point of no return with me, they're cut off, and I don't pretend nothing's changed just for the sake of making nice. There's no sense in martyring oneself just because someone else says it's not "nice" to do otherwise. Life is too short.

JoY
11-21-2006, 04:09 AM
oh yes, fully agreed. I just wanted to say there's a basic, fundamental respect I feel towards everyone & from that standpoint I approach people with a certain loyalty & truthfulness. like I said, it comes in different forms & there are different ways to be loyal to someone. what means more to me is being loyal & true to myself, naturally. respect for someone can grow, among many other positive factors, meaning loyalty & truthfulness for me are parallel with my respect for someone. people can lose respect from me, loyalty & truthfulness with that, but it'll never be reduced to zero.