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coke_a_holic
12-06-2006, 08:52 PM
My friend Adam sent me this story, I think you guys would be just as confused as I am about it.
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4783650


Girl, 13, charged as sex offender and victim
By Pamela Manson
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated:12/06/2006 01:12:35 AM MST

Salt Lake City - Utah Supreme Court justices acknowledged Tuesday that they were struggling to wrap their minds around the concept that a 13-year-old girl could be both an offender and a victim for the same act - in this case, having consensual sex with her 12-year-old boyfriend.

The Ogden, Utah, girl was put in this odd position because she was found guilty of violating a state law that prohibits sex with someone under age 14. She also was the victim in the case against her boyfriend, who was found guilty of the same violation by engaging in sexual activity with her.

"The only thing that comes close to this is dueling," said Associate Chief Justice Michael Wilkins, noting that two people who take 20 paces and then shoot could each be considered both victim and offender.

And Chief Justice Christine Durham wondered if the state Legislature had intended the "peculiar consequence" that a child would have the simultaneous status of a protected person and an alleged perpetrator under the law.

The comments came in oral arguments on a motion asking the high court to overturn the finding of delinquency - the legal term in juvenile court for a conviction - against Z.C., who became pregnant after she and her boyfriend engaged in sex in October 2003.

State authorities filed delinquency petitions in July 2004, alleging that each had committed sexual abuse of a child, a second-degree felony if committed by an adult.

The girl appealed the petition, saying her constitutional right to be treated equally under the law had been violated.

Her motion noted that for juveniles who are 16 and 17, having sex with others in their own age group does not qualify as a crime.

Juveniles who are 14 or 15 and have sex with peers can be charged with unlawful conduct with a minor, but the law provides for mitigation when the age difference is less than four years, making the offense a misdemeanor.

For adolescents under 14, though, there are no exceptions or mitigation and they are never considered capable of consenting to sex.

A juvenile court judge denied the motion by Z.C., who then admitted to the offense while preserving her right to appeal to a higher court. The boy did not appeal.

The Utah Court of Appeals last December upheld the judge's refusal to dismiss the allegation, saying the law's "rigorous protections" for younger minors include protecting them for each other. Z.C. then appealed to the state Supreme Court.

At Tuesday's arguments, Matthew Bates, an assistant Utah attorney general, argued the prosecution of the girl was not unreasonable. He said the statute in question is designed to prevent sex with children who are 13 and younger, even if the other person is in the same age group.

By passing that law, legislators were sending a message, Bates said: Sex with or among children is unacceptable.

Randall Richards, the girl's attorney, argued that prosecuting children under a law meant to protect them is illogical.

"A child (victim) cannot also be a perpetrator in the exact same act," Richards said.

The Utah Supreme Court will issue a ruling later.


It seems insane that this law can be dealt with in this fashion. While the point of it seems to make sense, the way they carry it out is so paradoxical that I can't even begin to imagine it. Do the charges cancel out?

Discuss.

If this should be in politics, go ahead and move it.

Llamas
12-06-2006, 09:00 PM
fucking a, why the hell is it illegal to have sex? I really don't get it. Yes, I understand it being illegal for someone above 18 having sex with a minor... but come on. Two kids having sex.... well yeah, weird as hell to me, but illegal? Good god.

All About Eve
12-06-2006, 09:02 PM
I think it should cancel out, but whether it will or not is another case.

Rag Doll
12-06-2006, 09:04 PM
uhhh, cancel out? like since she's a victim she doesnt go to jail? and everyone is like "lol secks? never happened."..?

doesnt work that way. while i think the law itself (no sex with those under 14) is a good idea...the way it is being put into practice here is a little silly. though, i can sort of understand why they are doing it.

All About Eve
12-06-2006, 09:06 PM
Not like that, I mean since they were both 13/12, it shouldn't exactly be administered the same way.

Rag Doll
12-06-2006, 09:10 PM
ah. well, to an extent i agree that it's a bit ridiculous. at the same time, i also can see why they're doing it. =\

Llamas
12-06-2006, 09:13 PM
uhhh, cancel out? like since she's a victim she doesnt go to jail? and everyone is like "lol secks? never happened."..?

doesnt work that way. while i think the law itself (no sex with those under 14) is a good idea...the way it is being put into practice here is a little silly. though, i can sort of understand why they are doing it.

I'm actually curious as to why it's a good law. I really don't get it...

coke_a_holic
12-06-2006, 09:19 PM
I think it says something about the sexual education of the area if they aren't scaring the pants on these kids.

In all, I'd say that having it be a law that anyone under the age of 14 engaging in sex is pretty useless, whereas I'd agree with a law against anyone under the age of 14 having sex with anyone over the age of, say, 18.

It never says what the consequences are, either. I'd like to know what the punishment is for 2 kids to have sex.

Rag Doll
12-06-2006, 09:22 PM
it's not a "good law," really. but to explain what i mean...

it is reinforcing the fact that kids that age arent capable of consenting to sex. also, lets say, hypothetically....the person that initiated the encounter (i think it said it was the girl here?) was molested or abused or something along these lines in their childhood. that child may then see it as "ok" and want to try it out with their friend. their friend may not be ready for this *at all* (which is why there's a law against it). just because one kid "wants it" doesn't mean both are ready. plus, they cant really make exceptions constantly...it's like, where do you draw the line? what if they were 12 and 10? you know?

Endymion
12-06-2006, 09:52 PM
is she hot?

Icy Chic
12-06-2006, 09:53 PM
At some points in the charge I can fully understad it, but in others it's idiotic.

Llamas
12-06-2006, 09:54 PM
it's not a "good law," really. but to explain what i mean...

it is reinforcing the fact that kids that age arent capable of consenting to sex. also, lets say, hypothetically....the person that initiated the encounter (i think it said it was the girl here?) was molested or abused or something along these lines in their childhood. that child may then see it as "ok" and want to try it out with their friend. their friend may not be ready for this *at all* (which is why there's a law against it). just because one kid "wants it" doesn't mean both are ready. plus, they cant really make exceptions constantly...it's like, where do you draw the line? what if they were 12 and 10? you know?

Hey, no I know what you're saying as far as drawing a line as to when people can have sex and when it's okay... it's just that implementing a law seems ridiculous to me, I guess.

Rag Doll
12-06-2006, 09:58 PM
if there's no law, then there's no guideline set...and then if something occurs where someone should be charged, they cant be. so...*shrug*. in particular case though, it seems a bit silly...there's prolly some purely political motivation for it this time.

Not Ozymandias
12-06-2006, 10:22 PM
is she hot?

Does it matter? She puts out.

Endymion
12-06-2006, 11:03 PM
Does it matter? She puts out.

and rides bareback.

Nina
12-07-2006, 07:25 AM
Juveniles who are 14 or 15 and have sex with peers can be charged with unlawful conduct with a minor, but the law provides for mitigation when the age difference is less than four years, making the offense a misdemeanor.

They should change the law to this ^ for kids under 14 having sex. Then it's not paradox anymore.

Or is that too simple?

noodlesfan
12-07-2006, 08:29 AM
The comments came in oral arguments on a motion...

This made me shit my pants laughing...

noodlesfan
12-07-2006, 08:48 AM
*cough* can mods do anything about the giant-ass signature?

Paint_It_Black
12-07-2006, 09:35 AM
This made me shit my pants laughing...

Funny, I already assumed you constantly sat around in your own feces.


There is a limit as to how long a sig can be. No more than 1,000 characters.

Evidently that was ill-conceived. Much like you.

Nineteen Seventy Nine
12-07-2006, 01:21 PM
So you're saying that if I found out some little 7th and 8th graders were having sex, I could get them arrested?

Anyway, I think it'd be funny if a similar thing happened in the future with the same people. When the girl is 18 and the guy is 17.

H1T_That
12-07-2006, 01:28 PM
Respect to the kid, banging at 12. I didn't even know what a vag was at that age.

Paint_It_Black
12-07-2006, 02:21 PM
But you're British. You're supposed to all have kids by 12.

JohnnyNemesis
12-07-2006, 03:50 PM
Pfft, I already had my first STD by the time I was 13.

Llamas
12-07-2006, 03:51 PM
Pffft, I was BORN with an STD! Pwn'd!

nameless
12-07-2006, 04:20 PM
there is a huge debate raging about sex and rape in the uk about consent and stuff, its always 6 of one and half a dozen of the other!

sKratch
12-07-2006, 04:32 PM
llamas gave me an STD by not responding to my IM :[

Llamas
12-07-2006, 04:33 PM
I woke up, saw an IM and closed it before I ran off to class... IM me again?

JohnnyNemesis
12-07-2006, 04:34 PM
Stop trying to steal my woman, whitey.

Sin Studly
12-07-2006, 04:47 PM
Maybe you're the whitey, what with all the accusing and all.

Oxygene
12-07-2006, 05:14 PM
i personally think that kids amongst eachother will do stupid shit... I had a friend who ate out a chick in kindergarden.. they didn't know what the fuck they were doing, but I don't think he needs to be sent to jail :)
On a serious note, the lawyer of the girl was absolutley right how can she be prosecuted by a law, that's in effect to protect her in the very situation... I understand how younger kids can't really consent to sex, but I think that kids can't really abuse eachother the way adults can abuse kids. And esp a 13 year old girl, can't sexually abuse a 12 year old boy, unless she shoves a dildo up his ass, or something... this is the same shit, with the hot teachers and the 15 year old boys... it's all bullshit most of the time, where the guy can't wait for the teacher to blow him again.. and the mom is fileing charges... blah... sexual predators suck, they complicate life waaaay to much for the rest of us :(

DeAtHsTaR
12-07-2006, 05:19 PM
i personally think that kids amongst eachother will do stupid shit... I had a friend who ate out a chick in kindergarden..


I call bullshit.

Oxygene
12-07-2006, 05:22 PM
I call bullshit.
well I wasn't there (obviously) but I trust the guy that said it.. he isn't the type of guy who would bullshit something that stupid :)
But.. whatever floats your boat...

Apathy
12-07-2006, 06:29 PM
In Milwaukee a few months ago some 11 year old girl was raped by about twenty people, ranging in ages from 13 to 40. They all took turns raping her, it's a big news story.

The funny thing is, unbeknownst to them, the girl was HIV positive. So now they all have AIDS.

EMehl6
12-07-2006, 06:36 PM
In Milwaukee a few months ago some 11 year old girl was raped by about twenty people, ranging in ages from 13 to 40. They all took turns raping her, it's a big news story.

The funny thing is, unbeknownst to them, the girl was HIV positive. So now they all have AIDS.

Oh, the irony. That's hilarious (all of them getting AIDS).

I feel terrible for the little girl, that's awful.

JohnnyNemesis
12-07-2006, 06:41 PM
Yeah, I hate that it happened, but I love that they're all gonna fuckin' die for it, the scumbags.

EMehl6
12-07-2006, 07:03 PM
Yeah, I hate that it happened, but I love that they're all gonna fuckin' die for it, the scumbags.

Indeed, it's the perfect irony. I don't know if it's just me, but doesn't the story about the 11 year old remind you of "Jennifer Lost The War"?

JohnnyNemesis
12-07-2006, 07:09 PM
Yeah, but only when I'm feeling like a total fucking toolbox.

EMehl6
12-07-2006, 07:32 PM
Yeah, but only when I'm feeling like a total fucking toolbox.

Nowhere did I say it was good, I was talking about the subject and the lyrics and shit. I don't see how that makes me a tool.

Icy Chic
12-07-2006, 07:58 PM
I feel terrible for the little girl, that's awful.


Ya, that sucks for the girl, but I have no sympathy for the asses that raped her. In my opinion they deserve any terrible thing coming their way.

Llamas
12-07-2006, 08:12 PM
I would prefer if they all got nasty penis diseases where their penises slowly rotted away painful for the rest of their lives. Girls should all put poison down there whenever they think they might get raped. Yes.

Icy Chic
12-07-2006, 08:18 PM
I would prefer if they all got nasty penis diseases where their penises slowly rotted away painful for the rest of their lives. Girls should all put poison down there whenever they think they might get raped. Yes.

Nice way of punishment. Also, a switch blade would be nice. Simple, the asshole tries to rape you, you get the blade and stab as many times as you can.

0r4ng3
12-07-2006, 08:19 PM
Girls should all put poison down there whenever they think they might get raped. Yes.
Poison wouldn't work. If girls have the means to put poison down there, guys would go through all the trouble to get the antidote.

Llamas
12-07-2006, 08:22 PM
hence, poison that has no antidote! wahaha.

Icy Chic
12-07-2006, 08:23 PM
hence, poison that has no antidote! wahaha.

^True. You have a point.

WebDudette
12-07-2006, 08:31 PM
Why would a girl think she was going to get raped?

According to a news thing (which could be wrong, it wasn't official), she wasn't exactly forced to do it, but it is stil very very wrong and disturbing.

Llamas
12-07-2006, 08:38 PM
Why would a girl think she was going to get raped? According to a news thing (which could be wrong, it wasn't official), she wasn't exactly forced to do it, but it is stil very very wrong and disturbing.

...I...wasn't...serious...

WebDudette
12-07-2006, 08:39 PM
I figured as much, but mentioned it anyways.

JohnnyNemesis
12-07-2006, 08:44 PM
Nowhere did I say it was good, I was talking about the subject and the lyrics and shit. I don't see how that makes me a tool.

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A%20joke&sourceid=mozilla2&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

EMehl6
12-07-2006, 09:18 PM
Haha, funny funny. How was I supposed to know you were kidding, though? I mean, this is the internet, I can't tell if you say it sarcastically or whatver.

And besides, some of the stuff you've said to me before would lead me to believe you were serious.

Llamas
12-07-2006, 09:19 PM
You're just supposed to know. Duh. ;)

EMehl6
12-07-2006, 09:26 PM
You're just supposed to know. Duh. ;)

I know, I know, silly me. I've forgotten how to read minds :p

coke_a_holic
12-07-2006, 10:16 PM
I find it's hard to read mines, too. They tend to explode under my feet.

[/lame]

noodlesfan
12-08-2006, 08:37 AM
The funny thing is, unbeknownst to them, the girl was HIV positive. So now they all have AIDS.

That GG Allin song just started playing in my head.

EMehl6
12-08-2006, 09:21 AM
I find it's hard to read mines, too. They tend to explode under my feet.

[/lame]

Clever lol.

Amiralanal
12-08-2006, 10:08 AM
Thats a fucked up country