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Satanic_Surfer
12-24-2004, 05:34 PM
The question is quite simple.
When 60% of the population decides to vote during a democratic election, it would be a disaster to many countries around the world and if the party that won the election would get nearly as many votes as another party, the winner party would sit in the government for a few years but the party that did not win, would have lots to say and in democratic progresses, their opinions would weigh heavily upon the decisions, for the simple reason that a country cannot have a government with one party that would set all the rules.
That would be very incompetent.
The dream that Democracy can change everything is, and will always remain as nothing but a dream, but a necessary dream to keep up the hope among the masses that maybe one day in the future, everyone will be equal.
It's a stupid dream in cracks that seems to be moving nowhere.

When 60% of the population is voting in USA, it's a LOT... but why? I mean... that is a little over half of the population, usually it's less than 60% even, does that mean that half of the population in the USA doesnt even care about what happens to them, their family and friends and innocents around the world?
Of course not!
In Capitalism, the only true winners are the capitalists, who else?
And that the big american parties do their best to stop voters from reaching the input boxes of votes, is certainly silly! How would you even get THINKING of such a thing?! A party wich claims it's own democratic rights, yet still tries to stop voters from another party to vote? Now that's low!
In the most countries around the western societies, parties of that kind would be banned, or at least looked over if they should keep their democratic rights they have for being a "democratic party".
Alike actions has been taken in for example Germany and Sweden, to Nazi or Fascist parties who spread propaganda about a very centralized governing and a disrespect for the lifes of the people in the opposition.

Yet, most americans are NOT capitalists, Nazis, fundamentalist Christians or fascists.
But about 50% of them keep voting for parties of that kind (more or less).
Thinking of that the american president made clear that he would like it "so much better" if he was a dictator in a Monarchy country instead of a president in a Democratic one... that same president re-ran and WON!
I dont want to see people as morons because every human being is special and eternal, everyone is different and i believe that the bigger mixture of people, the more we can learn from eachother.
so what about this second half of the people... those who are AT LEAST 50% of the american population, the working class?
Yes, im thinking of the black people who are forced to live in certain neighbourhoods, often needs to have 2 jobs to pay the rent, those who without, the white richies would never keep surviving.
The exploited people, the homosexuals! The working class youth! The Communists! The Syndicalists/Anarchists, the Anarko-Satanists, the anti-capitalists/anti-fascists, the vegeterians, the peace lovers, the militants, the anti-parlamentists, the Socialists, those who has lost their right to vote even though they have served their time kidnapped by the government and put in a cell for a year or more!
Where the hell are you?!?!?!

That you are too smart to believe in Patriotism is a well known fact, so it is that you're too intelligent to vote for a party that promotes economical profit instead of human rights.
Those intellectuals who feel slighty degraded for that they are being ruled by capitalists in a government.
Those who steal voting cards from people they know will vote for parties who promote oppression against innocents... yes, you guys... you who like stuff to happen, the Direct Action.
The force in people that will make you throw molotov cocktails upon multinational companies that feed the world with weapons and make you aim your glass bottles at the police when they stand there watching the fascist parades passing by without resistence, in order to protect tomorrow's Hitler?

I just wonder.... where have you gone? To Ralph Nader? I laugh a little and roll my eyes... remember that "The problems in the world today will not be changed by th esame level of thinking that created them."
Albert Einstein said that back when he lived... well tried and true, the same level of thinking that created the problems back in then, has yet not solved them.

Where are you?!

the original pyro
12-24-2004, 08:33 PM
that was too long so I didnt read it. But it seemed like a rant that was neither purposeful nor informational. What the fuck are you talking about.

SicN Twisted
12-24-2004, 09:30 PM
Most Americans are capitalists. If they weren't, they'd elect socialist leaders, which they don't.

Also, the working class has very little voting, but workers are not exposed to issues and feel that any world bigger then their nine to five shift is too distant. Capitalism ailienates workers so they can't ban together and fight for their representation. It's a mind tactic.

Satanic_Surfer
12-24-2004, 11:22 PM
There is a whole lot of stuff that american voters should think of, in my first input.
The problem is not the opposition, but the lameness among the americans.
It seems to me that americans may be very little caring of who's in charge... or maybe the reason is that they just dont read any political writings unless it's very simple and the contains much refer to hand picked quotes of the Christian Bible?
But of course i dont blame anyone for not being interested in what i have to say, that's a highly personal choise.
But if you havent even read it, yet still decide to give a comment on it, you must simply be very ignorant, and that certainly doesnt take anyone far.

Maybe the most interesting thing about this thread, for me, is to see how people react on it.
Another brutal lie is that "most americans are capitalists", dont tell me im the only one laughing at that false statement?
George W Bush, together with his fellow Republicans, are keeping up a political system that hardly is for gain for anyone else but the richest 10% of the americans.
I can say so, that the most of those people are capitalists, yes.
But still the Republicans got 51% of the votes?
And the belief that all non-white countries are "terrorists" is simply stupid too. Oh yes, a majority of the americans still believes that all, or most of the air plane crashers in the 9/11 attacks were either from Iraq or Afghanistan.
Completely wrong!
Just as wrong as the belief that USA has NOT got any military bases around countries in the middle east for the sake of oil pumping!

Or what more? All that talk about "Democratic rights" when in LESS corrupted "Democracies" around the world, official news papers or news channels are not allowed to spread party political propaganda messages.
Take a look at Fox News Channel for example!
Is it a co-incident that the owner is family related to George W Bush himself, and that he has fired reporters because they have refused to hide the truth in their professional reporting, just to switch it out for Republican propaganda?
If facts are what you're looking for, go ahead, look it up!
so the highjackers in 9/11 were not a bunch of afghans or iraqis?
No, almost all of them were from Saudi Arabia... another terrorist country, you say?
"The only true Democracy in that area" Bush says... well that was just what he said about Isreal a time ago, when asked about if he's got plans on doing something about the oppressing of the palistinian people, am i wrong?!

By European measures, the Bush Republicans are counted as a third position fascist party, because that is exactly what they are, or am i wrong again?

The greatest parlamental threat to the american government seems to be Ralph Nader... a very un-special candidate with nothing more to come up with, than his common sense.
Why would that be so, then? Well he threatens to put an end to the 2-party-system where the capitalists are the only true winners, and the only choise is to either vote for an extremist Christian fascist right wing party or another Christian fascist right wing party.
Yes, if you'd like me to, i could spell it out a bit different so you actually would see a difference between the 2 parties there is to choose from.
Is it facts you like to hear? How about the contract between USA and Saudi Arabia that ensures Saudi Arabia's security in the war on terrorism in exchange for oil?
Or how about CIA's close co-operation with Egypt, whenever they want someone to be sentenced to death but the law in the US does not allow it?

"The internet is your middlefinger to the world, dont let them take it away" (Marilyn Manson).
Yes, you've got the whole fucking internet out there and still you believe in party political lies? It's sad to see human minds fade away like that!
Something that i DONT have no facts on though, is what the people who arent voting, are doing? Because it's not like they are apathic beings who dont see or dont care what happens around the world.

Betty
12-25-2004, 05:19 PM
Also, the working class has very little voting, but workers are not exposed to issues and feel that any world bigger then their nine to five shift is too distant. Capitalism ailienates workers so they can't ban together and fight for their representation. It's a mind tactic.

I hope this is trying to imply that the workers are too "in their own little world" to vote than to say that capitalism is brainwashing them. If it's the latter, I say screw that.

Noodles is gay
12-25-2004, 05:22 PM
American Working Class? Do you exist?

No, they do not.

The yanks have little pixies working for them so there are only two groups in America; the elite and the scum.

The elite is a very small class, comprised of only about 5 people.
The scum is every other american citizen.

Satanic_Surfer
12-26-2004, 12:17 AM
"Noodles_is_gay", i think you might be very right in what you're saying.
Yet i dont believe that the rich elite is only a few people.
Remember all the stock corporations that flow their money out of the stock holders hands into the president campaigns.
"Well why would they do that?" Many people ask.
It's not like some sort o one-way-love we're talking about here, no, sponsering the president's president campaign will eventually lead to that crimes against human rights, in the certain corporation, will be silented.
"Dont we have court rooms for them?" Is another question.
And yes, there are court rooms.
But it is a fact that just like in any Monarchy around the world, the few people who lead the nation, or in this case, the single person in the top, will hand pick every judger in the highest court, and what does that mean?
Well... every judger in the highest court happens to be a Neo-Conservative!
Dont tell me that came as a surprise!
They are under total control of the government and the government can at any time change the decissions made in highest court.
Remember how the PATRIOT ACT came true?
That would never have been even close to possible if the judgers of the highest court would be elected in democratic ways.
"We strike where ever we want and upon who ever we want, with little or no consern about human rights and laws of any country.
And when we strike against them, we are enrightened to use torture and violence if we wish to, even if the taken hostage has not comitted a crime yet! And by the way... we still call it 'self defense'!"

Patriotism... isnt it just lovely, huh?
I wish i could go out on the streets and just hammer down anyone i want when im frustrated and call it "self defense" plus actually GETTING AWAY WITH IT because the´judgers in courts are of MY favour, no matter what has happened and no matter what the deal looks like! :D
"Hey wait... dont shoot! He's under 18!"
"Dont worry, we're still allowed to in the PATRIOT ACT, and that stands above the law, right?!"
Oh yeah, well no worries... if that darn law still is against us, we can always lend him over to the CIA and see how he would like a vacation in Syria or Egypt for about a pair of days... and never return again!"

He he he... ever seen a white man be counted as a "terrorist", huh?
In fact i dont KNOW wich sort of politics i should label the Conservatives in... well of course, a right wing one, but more specifically?
I mean... they are extremist Christians... hating anyone who doesnt agree with them... gawd how i hate narrowmindness!
And a couple of hundred years ago, the church tried their best to use the position as wolves against the people who played the lambs, by kidnapping anyone who was old, weak, sick, homosexual or even LOOKED different, in order to burn them as "witches" and that was completely the right thing to do huh, right? Because they were witches... FUCKING WITCHES!!!
Well i tell ya... there aint NOTHING wrong with witches, well yeah they DO exist, but they are much more civilized than the people who believe they are "evil" after seen all those science fiction movies about how bad they are!

Or maybe i should label the Conservatives as Neo-Nazis?
Remember.... during the second world war, Adolf Hitler were about to slaughter anyone who wasnt a "strong white arian" and therefor didnt have human rights.
This time, the church wasnt playing the big "PATRIOT ACT" role, but Religion certainly played a good part of it, it always does, trust me.
Nazi-Germany under the control of Hitler, liked to slaughter old people, the weak, the sick, the homosexuals or even the people who LOOKED different!!!
(Especially if they were Jewsish.)
The law was once again not in total charge, but Mein Kempf played a greater role to the actions that were made and of course... were above law!

Can you believe how fun i have overhere?
I see the same things happening again...
"What goes around, comes around" as The Offspring say in a song, claiming that everything that happens will happen again in the next generation as long they are taught to think the same ways.
Today we see the Conservatives taking form out of the ashes where crimes against human rights once were burning.
The PATRIOT ACT becomes another überlaw and the white man is once again the übermenschen, and they dont stop for slaughtering anyone who's old, weak, sick, homosexual or even LOOK DIFFERENT!!!

The greatest problem in all of this... is that the working class is the biggest loser, i can guess that about all of us are part of the working class, but as long we are told we dont exist, we dont have a voice in our own society.

SicN Twisted
12-26-2004, 02:38 AM
Capitalism doesn't brainwash workers, it estranges them. It destroys any vestige of hope for them, which is even worse then brainwashing. They're certainly aware of their plight - most workers aren't smart enough to think the system works for them.

Satanic_Surfer
12-26-2004, 04:49 AM
...Or you can turn it?
They're too smart for the system?
I am very critical to how the Capitalist system works, how it strangles itself slowly and the only way that it seems to slow down that process is to exploit the poor.
The Working Class has no financial interests.
That does not mean they are "stupid", or even "not knowing how the system works", in fact, they are the ones who slave for the system every day, the only ones who truely knows what it is like!
Any person who is put that close to the truth, has to be real blind to not see what it is like.
But the fact that there is no well known, or even medium big, Workers Party, in the US, is sad.
Well there is always Lyndon LaRouche, and he would be able to make lots of changes and would probably go down the history as being one of the presidents that actually made a difference... though i dont believe he ever will reach the presidency, and i certainly dont think he is perfect.
In any case... workers united stand a chance and it's obvious that american workers are not united.
It doesnt matter from where you come, all that matters is who you are.
I believe that the society is buildt upon the working class and i even believe that the upper class, the elite, is NOT needed, for the wealth of the country, instead they sit there like parasites, making their money from "owning" the work that the working class is doing for them.
those hours of the day the working people go to work, could be use for a thausend more useful things than slaving for someone else who makes the BIG money on everything they do!
But to even get NEAR that opinion in the USA seems to be a taboo, and it seems like it has been a taboo ever since the big equipment of arms competition against Soviet.
Anyone who wonders why Capitalism has to starve people for the luck of the oppressors, get a stamp for being a "Liberal Communist rat"... wich is pretty ironic though because Cummunists are certainly not LIBERALS!
In fact... they're pretty Conservative in their way of thinking.
Of course there are left wing organisations even in USA (Thank God for AFA).
Well... even ALF does have members in there.
But those are no "ordinary people organisations" but militant flat organisations without leaders.
(Anti Fascist Action and Animal Liberation Front).
There seems to be space for a lot of work outside the parlamental corruptedness, for the workers.
And that is where i really wonder what's happening, because i dont see anything being done?!

wheelchairman
12-27-2004, 11:31 AM
Jesus christ, write a fuckin' book to every 3 line reply.

Sic, we disagree then, I don't think that most Americans are capitalists. I would say that the majority of Americans are capitalists only in the way they vote. It has to do with how many Americans are aware of their class.

And so in a way it's brainwashing, but not really. I mean, you can't elect a socialist leader in America, I'd say it's impossible in the current system. What we've done is convinced people that the two identical parties that are the largest, are the only ones worth voting for.

And you'll find that a lot of the unionized workers know more about the system and how it exploits them. However the unions in America are next to worthless. Little influence, and corrupt leaderships have made them about as capitalist as the capitalists.

What's required is a Working Class Union, one that fights for their interests (be they political, or be they economic). The American working class is severely crippled and oppressed I'd say.

And of course a working class exists in America, it's just useless. They aren't class conscious. And there is no party or group willing to tell them that they have alternatives in other parties. Or that they can improve their lives by organizing in an effective union.

And that's all I have to say, this topic is a mess.

SicN Twisted
12-27-2004, 11:39 AM
So most Americans are capitalists due to their upbringing. The majority of Americans, even the most liberal who supported senator Wellstone do believe in private ownership, "free" enterprise (It's neccesary to use quoations when referring to what westerners call free enterprise), and all the other tenents of bourgeois capitalism. Americans have very little class consciousness - citizens of poorer countries where the plight of the working class is more apparent, like in South America, have much more class consciousness, which is why they're more prone to electing socialist leaders like Allende and Chavez.

wheelchairman
12-27-2004, 11:50 AM
oh I agree with you. I just think a line needs to be drawn between who is capitalist, and who thinks like a capitalist.

Satanic_Surfer
12-27-2004, 08:59 PM
Wheelchair man is making a good point (as usual).
Thinking as a capitalist means to accept Capitalism in it's greater form, whether you know how it works, or not.
There should be SOME kind of source for Socialist/realist information, some less corrupted one, i think there is but it's problem is that it's not very big.
Listen to the speeches of George Bush and listen to a speech from Usama Bin Laden (a WHOLE one, not one that a news channel has cut down already).
Then tell me wich one makes most sense?
The man who corrupts and steals power in order to terrorize people who arent white?
Or the man who tries to share the tragedies in the middle east upon those who gave it to them, the one who tries to make the white people understand that a racist thinking is wrong, that when people die, it DOES hurt to their families?
The answer, from me at least, is scary but honest...

SicN Twisted
12-28-2004, 09:47 AM
Dude your posts are so ambiguous I have no idea how to reply to them.

Leo_ARG
12-28-2004, 10:19 AM
Well, SicNTwisted. I am in south america, and I can tell you that while it's true we are going left, we haven't elected a SINGLE socialist.
If you are socialist you don't believe in private ownership and that's still here.

And there is a lot of class consciousness but that's because there are a lot of communist activists.The common people, the normal workers aren't onto it, because they are affraid to loose their jobs.

It's sad, but all the organization that should take care of working class rights are full of corruption and people that takes advantage of those who don't have enough education to exploit them.

wheelchairman
12-28-2004, 10:30 AM
Well Cuba aside. Brazil has elected Worker's leaders, true they've been incompetent so far. But in recent local elections another more marxist socialist party has gained quite a lot of popularity.

Venezuela has shown that they still want Chavez, and I consider him a socialist.

Uruguay has kicked out their conservative right wing government and replaced it with an alliance of west-wing folk, including socialists and marxists.

And most Latin American countries have a strong socialist movement.

And private industry will not necessarily be destroyed immediately after an election, for private industry existed even in the USSR under Stalin, it will just face much heavier restrictions.

Satanic_Surfer
12-28-2004, 09:48 PM
Yes, private ownership is not to be illegalized under Socialism.
Though most right wing propaganda tells about how the real left wing wants to steal everything we have, scaaaary huh?
That is not true, the socialist thinking believes that the upper class, that infact are to be the RULING class, are not needed in a socialist society.
Therefor, what they own, is taken back and given to the people.
The first (well main) problem with Josef Stalin was that his ways of giving the corporations to the people were (in my opinion) just an excuse for another kind of ruling class, to own them, through the state.
If everything is owned by the state, you may wonder, who's in charge for the state in such case? The people, or the leader of the country?

But not even Stalin took back everything to give for the state.
There are Communist parties that believes that if everything is owned by the state, everyone's going to be equal.
The problem we would face in such case, is that the state would have a very centralized power and decide how much money we're gonna make, what our unions are gonna look like and yes, anything...
Power corrupts, centralized power corrpts even quicker.
I believe that the billions of money in cash or in share, should be taken away from the ruling class in order to place it in the pockets of the masses. When that happens, be sure to remove everything in the name of government and state.
That is a highly Anarchist thinking, but i do believe it would work out. Or is it better off today? When fucking 1% of the Earth's population owns the majority of all money in the world, while the rest of the 99% would be far away from having that much money, even if they gathered everything they have in a big pile!

Some more specific questions about a world with no government can be answered at any time, but the Syndicalists are the ones who do their best to have a part of the ruling class' cake, without having a parlamental party.
They work, just like Anarchists in many ways, through demonstrations, direct actions (for example protecting the streets from Nazis or sending bombs to weapon industry corporations or peaceful things such as starting "sneak through" campaigns for the trains with the ambition that if everybody avoids to pay money for going by train, they would keep the price much lower, and through tax money, that way every person would pay a % of their pay instead of that a rich man and a poor man pay the same price for the same trip by trains. Another Syndicalist way is starting own unions that demand the boss to be about fired, since they want the workers to handle the production.)

Anarchists share this way of thinking, though they dont want a taxing system. These are socialist groups that are not communists and has no interests in giving the power to the state.
They promote equality and justice in their true meanings, the problem why the world cannot have a working equality and justice is not the 1% of Earth's population that doesnt want to share their over rich ownings.
The problem is that they have great campaigns to make the working class vote for their parties and buy their needs from their corporations.
With that way of acting, and ruling, the working class does not stand united and that way we play right in their hands because they know damn well what would happen if 99% of Earth's population one day would understand that the work their boss do is not needed, the workers can produce everything by themselves much better without a boss or a government and they could even own what they produce instead of having the money going into the bosses pockets.
99 to 1 would be pretty damn good odds!