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Camel Filters
01-25-2007, 01:42 AM
The Governor of Wisconsin is a fucking idiot. He needs to burn in hell. He's trying to pass a law saying that we can't smoke in public places including bars and restuarunts. If you don't want to smell cigerette smoke then don't go to the bar or sit in the non smoking section of resturaunts. Plus he's raising tax to $1.25 from .77 which it is currently at. It's bull shit and I do not support it. This makes me want to light up right in front of his ugly ass face.

Llamas
01-25-2007, 02:28 AM
They've already passed that law in Minnesota. I have a split view on it.

I'm for it because the smell of cigarette smoke makes me sick to my stomach, and I'm a huge fan of going to bars. I hate having to inhale that shit when I'm in bars, and when you go to restaurants with people who smoke, you have to sit in the smoking section and smell way too much smoke. Also, at concerts, it's very disgusting, and people are assholes and throw lit cigarettes... one landed in my hair once. That's not okay.

I'm against it because I believe a business should be able to choose who they'd prefer their business to go to. Maybe they're okay with losing some non-smoking customers and prefer to allow people to smoke. And maybe they are okay with losing smoking customers and prefer to have the ban. Point is, part of me thinks it should be up to the owner, not the government.

I'm really torn on it, but in the end, I think it makes sense. It's safer for the building itself, and it's better for so many non-smokers, especially with all the statistics on the effects of second-hand smoke. If I'm upset about anything, I'm not feeling bad for smokers. Nobody's putting laws against smoking... and "omg I have to go outside in the cold for 3 minutes!" is not going to make me feel bad for you. The only issue I have is with forcing businesses to ban something they might not want to ban.

Sin Studly
01-25-2007, 02:38 AM
Fuck that, the whole point of going to a bar is debauchery. You need to be able to drink, smoke, shoot up and get hand jobs from 15-year-olds.

Bazza
01-25-2007, 02:47 AM
In the UK it's justified to heavily tax cigarettes, mainly because people who smoke are a huge drain on the NHS. Sometime this year England will have a smoking ban in public places (they already have it in Scotland). Whilst it's people's free will to smoke, it's also peoples choice not to breath it in. I'm for the ban since I don't smoke, but at the same time I know that if I currently go to a bar there will be smokers, it's my choice to go there and I know that I'll be in a smokey environment.

Llamas
01-25-2007, 02:53 AM
Fuck that, the whole point of going to a bar is debauchery. You need to be able to drink, smoke, shoot up and get hand jobs from 15-year-olds.

you can drink, go outside to smoke and shoot up, and then come back in for the hand jobs. ;)

And we're in the US here... 15 year olds can't get into bars. So I guess you should never go to an American bar cause you'd be super bored. :(

RickyCrack
01-25-2007, 02:55 AM
Because smoking is a right and not a privilege, amirite?

But srsly 200 punk rawk points for you.

the_GoDdEsS
01-25-2007, 03:03 AM
Serves you right.

Llamas
01-25-2007, 03:04 AM
4 hu? wishomie?

the_GoDdEsS
01-25-2007, 03:08 AM
Obviously, poor restuarunts.

wheelchairman
01-25-2007, 03:27 AM
It's a horribly stupid idea. Think of all the sheesha bars that will now force their foreign owners back into a life of crime.

But really, everyone who is against smokers in bars is just too whiney. restaurants maybe I could understand. But they also have smoking sections. And there is as of yet, still no conclusive proof that occassional second hand smoke is harmful.

Tizzalicious
01-25-2007, 03:35 AM
But really, everyone who is against smokers in bars is just too whiney. restaurants maybe I could understand. But they also have smoking sections. And there is as of yet, still no conclusive proof that occassional second hand smoke is harmful.

It's still gross though.

But I agree, a complete ban is stupid. What would be perfect though, is making having a non-smoking section obliged. That way everyone is happy. Except people with a very tiny restaurant.

Bazza
01-25-2007, 03:39 AM
It's still gross though.

But I agree, a complete ban is stupid. What would be perfect though, is making having a non-smoking section obliged. That way everyone is happy. Except people with a very tiny restaurant.

A local pub/restaurant near me used a bit of rope to seperate the smoking and non-smoking sections. How stupid is that, do they really think the smoke will stop at this imaginery barrier! The majority of restaurants have now made different sections, but yeah it'd be a bit crazy in a small place.

Sin Studly
01-25-2007, 04:06 AM
October of this year they ban it here too. October of this year I move to Russia, where you're allowed to smoke Kazakh villages for fun.

Zeall
01-25-2007, 04:09 AM
October of this year they ban it here too. October of this year I move to Russia, where you're allowed to smoke Kazakh villages for fun.

don't forget to pack some warm undies!

Little_Miss_1565
01-25-2007, 06:07 AM
Oh, stop whining. They've already done it in the major cities and the world didn't end. And Per, sheesha bars are allowed to have smoking indoors, at least in New York.

Sin Studly
01-25-2007, 06:11 AM
The world didn't end when the Bush Administration told women to eat folate, but you whined about that. This has a far more direct impact on my life than folate guidelines will ever have on yours. I'm moving to Libya and starting a revolution!

Lars
01-25-2007, 06:28 AM
A local pub/restaurant near me used a bit of rope to seperate the smoking and non-smoking sections. How stupid is that, do they really think the smoke will stop at this imaginery barrier! The majority of restaurants have now made different sections, but yeah it'd be a bit crazy in a small place.
Haha, was that a Weahterspoons? I recall going into one in Birmingham once and their food/non-smoking area was practically that, only difference was they had a small banister seperating it from the rest of the area.

khaaaaan
01-25-2007, 06:50 AM
It's still gross though.

But I agree, a complete ban is stupid. What would be perfect though, is making having a non-smoking section obliged. That way everyone is happy. Except people with a very tiny restaurant.

Agreed. First I was pro 100% ban, but thinking about it... and taking up sheesha smoking has altered my opinion. Obliged non-smoking sections it is.

mrconeman
01-25-2007, 06:57 AM
I love the idea, it's coming over here in a few months (it's already active in the south).
The smell of smoke makes me wanna throw up, if you wear white, you come out yellow, and smell of it, it gets your hair smelling of it, it's just gross.
As you may have gathered I don't smoke, so honestly theres no down-side to it at all for me, not only will I be able to see in front of myself because of the lack of smoke in the air, but I won't be left coughing like mad in the morning along with my hangover.
Awesome.

Sinister
01-25-2007, 08:21 AM
We have a law like this, and it works, apart from bars going out of business.

Tizzalicious
01-25-2007, 08:43 AM
Agreed. First I was pro 100% ban, but thinking about it... and taking up sheesha smoking has altered my opinion. Obliged non-smoking sections it is.

Hahaha. You are a hypocrit like me :P

wheelchairman
01-25-2007, 11:35 AM
Oh, stop whining. They've already done it in the major cities and the world didn't end. And Per, sheesha bars are allowed to have smoking indoors, at least in New York.

Copenhagen city law-makers aren't as hip as the new york ones. I imagine Mayor David Bowie runs your city with a tight fist. That douche from Aqua is just embezzling.

As far as whining goes..it was whining that got the ban set in the first place. I just don't see the necessity.

Llamas
01-25-2007, 11:54 AM
We have a law like this, and it works, apart from bars going out of business.

Bars going out of business? wtf? So I live in Minneapolis, one half of the twin cities. Minneapolis has the smoking ban... St. Paul doesn't. The cities are connected. Minneapolis bars still are FAR more popular than St. Paul ones. The ban in Minneapolis has not caused all the smokers to go to St. Paul to drink. Seriously, the ban has not affected business negatively. Some smokers have surely stopped going to our bars, but more non-smokers go now.

HeadAroundU
01-25-2007, 12:11 PM
Ban ban ban, fuck yes! I'm 100% pro ban! Fuck you all smokers!

RickyCrack
01-25-2007, 01:03 PM
I smoke, but I also work at a restaurant. And I've had it up to here with people complaining about having to sit too close to the smoking section or for waiting for an available non-smoking table.

T-6005
01-25-2007, 01:30 PM
These laws are a pain in my ass. Especially when going outside to smoke means sitting out in freezing weather making your hands numb for a smoke.

wheelchairman
01-25-2007, 01:35 PM
I think what bothers me most about the smoking ban is the snobbishness involved.

It used to be that if something didn't directly harm you, it was none of your goddamn business. But now that there are potential health risks to long term inhalence of second hand smoking, all the whiney people finally have an excuse to judge others habits and intrude on their way of life.

Who are you to tell me I can't smoke if I want to? It ain't gonna kill you. There is no proof it'll give you cancer. You're just an annoying person who likes to whine and make everybody miserable.

Now it's opened the flood gates.

T-6005
01-25-2007, 01:45 PM
I do enjoy some of the warnings on cigarette packages.
http://www.smoke-free.ca/filtertips04/images/koola.jpg

Paint_It_Black
01-25-2007, 03:49 PM
Fuck this issue. It's happening, it's spreading, and we can't stop it.

If the people really wanted smoke free establishments they would be available. When there's a market for something, someone will provide it. The law doesn't need to be involved in this.

Why can't we just have fully smoker friendly bars and fully whiny health conscious fag bars? Makes sense to me.

Endymion
01-25-2007, 04:53 PM
it's been that way in california for as long as i can remember. people don't bitch about it either.

SkunkIt
01-25-2007, 05:54 PM
I personally don't like when people smoke cigarettes right beside me, not minding anything else, but I also think this is a stupid law. My dad bought two packs of cigarettes the other day, 100 bucks. That's not ridicoulous enough, now they won't let restaurant and bar owners decide whether to have smoking, or a smoking section or not? Sin Studly's right, what's the point of going to a bar if you can't smoke in it? You might as well buy some drinks and sit home. And if people are bothered by smoking in a restaurant, they can sit in the non-smoking section or leave the restaurant, whiny bitches.

Sin Studly
01-25-2007, 07:00 PM
I'm switching to black shag tobacco, and I'm gonna stand at the doorways of bars blowing smoke onto everyone who goes in and making them reek of a labour prison.

Paint_It_Black
01-25-2007, 07:05 PM
My dad bought two packs of cigarettes the other day, 100 bucks.

Tell your dad I'll sell him cigarettes from now on. 25 bucks a pack. That's half price!

SkunkIt
01-25-2007, 09:14 PM
I meant in bulk, about 10 or 12 packs in a box. It used to be much cheaper.

Llamas
01-25-2007, 09:28 PM
I'm switching to black shag tobacco, and I'm gonna stand at the doorways of bars blowing smoke onto everyone who goes in and making them reek of a labour prison.

There are laws about how far you have to be from the building to smoke, though.

Little_Miss_1565
01-25-2007, 09:41 PM
I think what bothers me most about the smoking ban is the snobbishness involved.

It used to be that if something didn't directly harm you, it was none of your goddamn business. But now that there are potential health risks to long term inhalence of second hand smoking, all the whiney people finally have an excuse to judge others habits and intrude on their way of life.

Who are you to tell me I can't smoke if I want to? It ain't gonna kill you. There is no proof it'll give you cancer. You're just an annoying person who likes to whine and make everybody miserable.

No proof that cigarette smoke causes cancer? Lololololol. Stick up for your smoking habit, go for it, but denying that it causes cancer with all the research is just hilarious. Not even any of the pack a day smokers I know try to deny that.

Sin Studly
01-25-2007, 09:44 PM
He said there's no proof secondhand smoke causes cancer.

edit ; and even if it does, boo-hoo. Bars sell hard liquor, not wheatgrass and turnip juice. They're not supposed to be healthy. You go there to drink alcoholic poison, to eat deepfried poison, to smoke carcinogenic poison, to sniff crystal meth off the unwashed toilet cistern, to sometimes engage in a spot of scrapping and get your nose popped open, and perhaps meet some person of questionable morals with which to have unprotected sex without learning each others names.

Now all these faggots who eat alfalfa and go to juice shops are crying because they want to go to bars too ; but they don't want to go to our bars, that stink of stale beer, spilt blood, old tobacco, unemployment and bad parenting. No, they want our bars to conform to their faggotted little pansy view of the world, so that they can go to a bar and eat raw carrots and tofu and drink pineapple juice and listen to Placebo on the jukebox.

Seriously, stick to your juice-bars and arthouse film festivals, and leave our preferred venue of entertainment alone.

Lodat225
01-25-2007, 09:48 PM
He said there's no proof secondhand smoke causes cancer.

But there is proof...? Isn't there?

Sin Studly
01-25-2007, 09:54 PM
Link me to it.

Little_Miss_1565
01-25-2007, 10:00 PM
He said there's no proof secondhand smoke causes cancer.

LOL. Yes, cigarette smoke undergoes a magical transformation when you inhale it, rendering secondhand smoke TOTALLY SAFE!

Sin Studly
01-25-2007, 10:19 PM
LOL, and while concentrated inhaled cigarette smoke takes decades to cause cancer in an individual, if it ever does, when it's totally dispersed and mixed with about 99.9% air to create a smokey atmosphere it's somehow more dangerous than the exhaust fumes of cars and factories you city-dwellers breathe in every single minute of every single day?

You liberals are turning the world into a padded cell. First you make us go out to the street for our gunfights, next you start hanging us for gunfighting at all. You ban alcohol made from methanol. You ban the dogfighting and bearbaiting and cockfighting, and next you bring it in that we can't even have a game of Faro for coin in the front bar, and then not even in the backroom, and we can't keep a cathouse up on the second floor. Pretty soon we have to check our pistols at the door and even harmless fun like beating up a drunk Chinaman from the railroads isn't allowed. All the apothacary gets moved to the barbershops and opium dens, laudanum gets taken off the menu and you can't even smoke a pill of hop in your favourite watering hole. And now tobacco too? What's next, banning alcohol from pubs?

God damn it, all I want is a quick roll upstairs with a clean whore who's happy to greet me with a smile and give French for an extra sovereign, then take a pill of hop and a cheap flagon of red-eye, and amuse myself with a few rounds of Faro. And darn it, if the Faro dealer goes and cheats me, I should be able to shoot that cur dead.

Seriously, you won't be happy until all sharp and hard edges are padded and pubs serve nothing but boiled tofu and unflavoured yoghurt (to be eaten with biodegradable plastic cutlery).

Little_Miss_1565
01-25-2007, 10:31 PM
Shit, Justin, you totally have my number. This is all a huge conspiracy on my part. I better cut that shit out now!

And please, it's never just one person smoking in a bar. There's usually more cigarette smoke than actual air.

Sin Studly
01-25-2007, 11:10 PM
There's usually more cigarette smoke than actual air.

Of course there is. Never mind the fact that if that if that was remotely close to being true the area would be completely lethal and everyone in it would die of smoke inhalation within 5 minutes.

Just fucking admit it ; if a man cheats me at Faro, you think I don't have the right to shoot him dead. Don't you???

Little_Miss_1565
01-25-2007, 11:21 PM
Depends how much he got from you.

sKratch
01-25-2007, 11:32 PM
I don't enjoy sitting in cigarette smoke. But I'm pretty sure there's not much evidence that exposure to second hand smoke in the doses you usually receive it is appreciably bad for you. That being said, I'm SURE it's not GOOD for you. I'm so "I see both sides" :[

sKratch
01-25-2007, 11:38 PM
Addendum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_hand_smoking

Sin Studly
01-26-2007, 12:22 AM
I think we're all agreed that inhaling anything but air isn't good for you. The question is what merits a ban and what doesn't. Since the government doesn't give a shit that my Grandfather is dying of the rock-lung, I find it hard to believe they give a shit about bartenders possibly having future health problems that may or may not be caused by secondhand smoke.

Sin Studly
01-26-2007, 01:39 AM
Homeless niggers stink worse than cigarettes, when will the liberals ban them?

Llamas
01-26-2007, 03:42 AM
LOL, and while concentrated inhaled cigarette smoke takes decades to cause cancer in an individual, if it ever does, when it's totally dispersed and mixed with about 99.9% air to create a smokey atmosphere it's somehow more dangerous than the exhaust fumes of cars and factories you city-dwellers breathe in every single minute of every single day?
However, when in a bar, the cigarette smoke is MUCH denser in the air than the pollutants in the atmosphere. Atleast in most places. Plus, rat poison. If it's used to kill rats, I'm sure it can cause cancer in humans from smaller doses.


Of course there is. Never mind the fact that if that if that was remotely close to being true the area would be completely lethal and everyone in it would die of smoke inhalation within 5 minutes.

How do you figure? If more than half the air was made up of smoke, it would be about the same as when a person smokes, since they usually breathe in one huge inhale, and then take a couple breaths before their next hit. Shouldn't they die in 5 minutes, too, especially since there is a lot of smoke in the air?


I think we're all agreed that inhaling anything but air isn't good for you. The question is what merits a ban and what doesn't. Since the government doesn't give a shit that my Grandfather is dying of the rock-lung, I find it hard to believe they give a shit about bartenders possibly having future health problems that may or may not be caused by secondhand smoke.

Of course the government isn't doing it because they care about people. I'm sure it's making them money somehow. When does the government EVER do things because they care about people?


I think it's a matter of air-pollution & stench. Everything (& everyone) that stinks should be banned. Polluting, old diesel cars are banned on high-pollution days. Cigarette smoke stinks, it deserves a ban. The next thing that deserves a ban (at least here in France) is dog-owners who blithely let their dogs shit in the middle of the street.

France sucks. Learn to establish a law that requires the owner to clean up the shit. That's how it is here.


Homeless niggers stink worse than cigarettes, when will the liberals ban them?

Yes but I don't have to smell them every time I go to a bar or restaurant.

wheelchairman
01-26-2007, 04:07 AM
Odd thing about the wiki article, about half the sources are organizations or legislatures that passed resolutions saying it's unhealthy.

What the wiki article lists as health risks, are "increased risks of cancers." And those who are affected, were those who were always around it. (The children of second hand smokers, etc.)

So yeah while it's sad for the bartenders (who I'm sure, had no idea there would be smoking in the bars at all...), they must have been aware of the fact that their clientele would smoke.

As for people who go out. Unless you are partying 24/7 and only with smokers. Well actually, either way you wouldn't have a case. It's a completely meaningless ban for all the other intoxins you chose to inhale without consideration.

wheelchairman
01-26-2007, 04:15 AM
How do you figure? If more than half the air was made up of smoke, it would be about the same as when a person smokes, since they usually breathe in one huge inhale, and then take a couple breaths before their next hit. Shouldn't they die in 5 minutes, too, especially since there is a lot of smoke in the air?
When you smoke you don't inhale pure tobacco smoke, air is obviously mixed. And you aren't inhaling it all the time. Obviously there are breaths between puffs. If miraculously some bar had more cigarette smoke than air in it, it would
1. have to be incredibly small and with a very low ceiling, and no one ever going outside.
2. Everyone would have to be smoking.
And of course, there you have yourself a gas chamber. It's just a ridiculous claim that's thrown around in the media.



Yes but I don't have to smell them every time I go to a bar or restaurant.
I work with one, he stinks. And he's not even homeless.

Zeall
01-26-2007, 04:19 AM
I work with one, he stinks. And he's not even homeless.

Pour bleach on him. It may not solve his problem, but it'll solve yours.

Sin Studly
01-26-2007, 04:36 AM
However, when in a bar, the cigarette smoke is MUCH denser in the air than the pollutants in the atmosphere. Atleast in most places. Plus, rat poison. If it's used to kill rats, I'm sure it can cause cancer in humans from smaller doses.

But you have a choice between going to bars and not going to bars. You don't have a choice when it comes to breathing in the atmosphere. And rat poison is a dessicant, it doesn't give rats cancer.


How do you figure? If more than half the air was made up of smoke, it would be about the same as when a person smokes, since they usually breathe in one huge inhale, and then take a couple breaths before their next hit. Shouldn't they die in 5 minutes, too, especially since there is a lot of smoke in the air?

Sorry, but that statement was beyond retarded. Again, if there's more smoke than air, you will die. This is true of any smoke, no matter what it comes from. This is why people die in house fires. And no, even when you're taking a direct hit off a cigarette you're getting more air than smoke.


Yes but I don't have to smell them every time I go to a bar or restaurant.

Because bars realise that most of their potential clientele want a relaxing outing bereft of homeless niggers. Hence, they do not allow homeless niggers into their establishment, for fear of losing paying clientele. If people wanted homeless niggers harrassing them while they drank, bars would allow homeless niggers in and then you could all whine and have the government ban them and spoil everyones homeless niggertastic fun.

Overworked & Underfucked
01-26-2007, 07:06 AM
Didn't read the whole thread so I'm sure someone already mentioned it, but I live in southern Ontario (Canada, for those of you who are not goegraphically inclined) and there has been a smoking ban for a few years. In... 2004 I think it was, smoking was banned from restaurants and bars, with one exception. Smoking was allowed indoors if a seperate room was built with it's own ventilation system. However, the "smoking room" option was only available for two years. In 2006, all restaurants, bars, pubs, pool halls and such were officially "smoke free." No more smoking indoors ANYWHERE in Ontario. The best part? You aren't even allowed to smoke under an overhang. If there is an awning, or an extension of the roof outside the building, you have to be a few meters away from it. Which makes it fun for us smokers in the rain!

JoY
01-26-2007, 07:11 AM
people have been talking about a smoking ban in the Netherlands.

..the Netherlands..

so.. the land of pot & coffeeshops.

in reply to the topic; I don't get it, smoking bans. like Bri said, it should be up to the owners of the place. if they want a smoke-free area, or even an entirely smoke-free bar/restaurant, whatever, they should just fucking do it. here in the Netherlands plenty of restaurant/diningroom owners have decided it was time for a smoke-free area, or an entirely smoke-free restaurant/diningroom & as a smoker, I'm perfectly fine with that & I respect it, because it's their place & they only try to do their best for their customers to ensure their income. so if customers in that particular place seem to want a place where they can sit without inhaling second hand smoke & if they'd lose those customers otherwise & they form a large percentage of their income, fine. I understand, seriously.

what I don't get, is that governments are whining about national health, the costs of curing cancer in smokers, et cetera. first of all; a pack of cigarettes is muchos expensive & all that money is all fucking taxes, because manufacturing cigarettes costs no more, or less than it did in the days a pack cost 50 cents. that tax money goes directly to the government. they raise the prices of cigarettes just so, that they make tons out of it & addicted smokers won't give up their habit. it's all been calculated in detail & it has nothing to do with discouraging smokers to smoke. it has to do with simple fucking money.

second of all; more than about smoking, the governments complain about the average age of the population raising like hell. docs are educated & trained to keep people alive, until people eventually live by a fucking thread mostly under inhumane conditions. & then they decide to pull the plug, or the body just checks out. still governments try to promote medicine, health care, studies & keep trying to educate more & more doctors. this has to do with survival chances within a country, that basically forms the reputation nowadays, your position on the map & it's considered a form of civilization.
it's so freakin' backwards; studies to fix the most impossible of all diseases are encouraged like crazy & the physically & mentally weak should be kept alive as long as fucking possible, but oh noes; the average age is going miles up & a large part of the population can't contribute to the community anymore, because they're simply too old & are nibbling away government money by sitting in homes with a blanket on their lap. what to do?

these two arguments combined; people, who die from lungcancer, from smoking, don't need healthcare, homecare, home adjustment, insurance, more medication, expensive homes for elderly; they die younger than non-smokers, so they keep the average age down a bit (& let's be honest here; old people are just fucking useless for society); they've smoked a ton in their lives, paying taxes like nobody's business & in all honesty; the government gets more money from those taxes, than they spend on patients, who suffer from a sickness caused by smoking.

if governments would just either quit their fucking whining about smokers/smoking & would just let the money roll in without complaints, while the smokers in the mean while contribute to a lower average age & a respectively higher percentage of working, contributing populance, OR encourage studies to raise that freakin' average age they worry so much about, just shut up & take cigarettes off the fucking market, I'd appreciate that. honestly. because their policy now is either completely backwards & retarded, or sneaky, tick-like & hypocrite.

if they really wanted to discourage smokers, they'd take the goddamn cigarettes off the market & quit coming up with their little "meassures", that are supposed to be of help, but that only single out smokers as a group in society. but since that's going to cost them financially, they're hypocrites about it, trying to seem like they care & want the best for their population, while the money just keeps rolling in.

JoY
01-26-2007, 08:23 AM
well, now that's off my chest.. *deep sigh & lights another cigarette*

=)

leo3375
01-26-2007, 11:13 AM
The Minnesota State Legislature is considering a statewide smoking ban, too. Currently, Minneapolis, St. Paul, and Bloomington have smoking bans. Hennepin County and Ramsey County have exemptions for businesses that make most of their profit from liquor sales. Other metropolitan counties have no such bans. As a result of these sporadic bans, businesses close to areas without bans or with exemptions have done poorly or have been forced to close.

Now, suppose Minnesota enacts a statewide smoking ban. This will help some of the businesses that have been affected by the sporadic bans, but it will certainly hurt businesses at the borders of the state, provided the towns and counties on the other side don't pass smoking bans. And with Wisconsin takling about a smoking ban as well, I don't see it really affecting business in Minnesota if both states pass smoking bans.

What the bans have come down to is public health. Non-smokers should have the right to go out to a bar or concert without having to breath in cigarette-smoke-filled air. Smokers still have the right to smoke, but it cannot be indoors, or the indoor space must be separate and provide ample ventilation.

Personall, I didn't really care when the Minneapolis ban was passed, but after seeing concerts after the ban went into effect, I really enjoyed being able to breathe in clean air.

Sin Studly
01-26-2007, 07:40 PM
What the bans have come down to is public health. Non-smokers should have the right to go out to a bar or concert without having to breath in cigarette-smoke-filled air.

They already have this right. Publicans are perfectly capable of declaring their bars smoke-free, and they'd do so if there were enough people who wanted a smoke-free environment. This is just another case of a whining faggotted minority spoiling the fun of everybody else.

Camel Filters
01-26-2007, 08:07 PM
People don't understand the reason why people smoke. Very few people smoke just to make them look cool. I smoke because of all the stress that I'm going through right now. When I try to explain why I'm under so much stress, people just laugh at me and It makes me want to smoke even more.

ninthlayer
01-26-2007, 08:10 PM
Ah, the sound a vagina makes.

Camel Filters
01-26-2007, 08:14 PM
Ah, the sound of a retard.

ninthlayer
01-26-2007, 08:19 PM
So, wishomie, tell me about the stress and turmoil of your everyday life. I am thoroughly interested.

Lodat225
01-26-2007, 08:20 PM
Work. Lots of work.

ninthlayer
01-26-2007, 08:25 PM
I don't care if you're attached at the dick to wishomie, let him answer for himself.

Lodat225
01-26-2007, 08:26 PM
Hmm, true. He'll say the same thing though.

SkunkIt
01-26-2007, 08:33 PM
He said there's no proof secondhand smoke causes cancer.

edit ; and even if it does, boo-hoo. Bars sell hard liquor, not wheatgrass and turnip juice. They're not supposed to be healthy. You go there to drink alcoholic poison, to eat deepfried poison, to smoke carcinogenic poison, to sniff crystal meth off the unwashed toilet cistern, to sometimes engage in a spot of scrapping and get your nose popped open, and perhaps meet some person of questionable morals with which to have unprotected sex without learning each others names.

Now all these faggots who eat alfalfa and go to juice shops are crying because they want to go to bars too ; but they don't want to go to our bars, that stink of stale beer, spilt blood, old tobacco, unemployment and bad parenting. No, they want our bars to conform to their faggotted little pansy view of the world, so that they can go to a bar and eat raw carrots and tofu and drink pineapple juice and listen to Placebo on the jukebox.

Seriously, stick to your juice-bars and arthouse film festivals, and leave our preferred venue of entertainment alone.

Exactly. If these guys want their own straight-edge health nut bars, they should go open one and stop whining.

Camel Filters
01-26-2007, 08:37 PM
work, a lot of work. My friend is laid off and I have to come up with the rent money, and all the other bills which is why I work so much. I don't know what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. I'm having car problems= more money. ciggeretts are the only thing that keeps my mind off of all those things.

ninthlayer
01-26-2007, 08:40 PM
Ha, you're a pussy. Life is so fucking hard when you're still managing to make the money to pay for rent/bills instead of going into debt. Oh, and congratulations on living with a deadbeat.

JoY
01-26-2007, 08:45 PM
People don't understand the reason why people smoke. Very few people smoke just to make them look cool. I smoke because of all the stress that I'm going through right now. When I try to explain why I'm under so much stress, people just laugh at me and It makes me want to smoke even more.

oh my god, SIGN ME UP I'M QUITTING.

not really, but replies like these make you want to.
Edit: & by the way, need money? want money? quit smoking.

Llamas
01-27-2007, 01:05 AM
The Minnesota State Legislature is considering a statewide smoking ban, too. Currently, Minneapolis, St. Paul, and Bloomington have smoking bans. Hennepin County and Ramsey County have exemptions for businesses that make most of their profit from liquor sales. Other metropolitan counties have no such bans. As a result of these sporadic bans, businesses close to areas without bans or with exemptions have done poorly or have been forced to close.

Now, suppose Minnesota enacts a statewide smoking ban. This will help some of the businesses that have been affected by the sporadic bans, but it will certainly hurt businesses at the borders of the state, provided the towns and counties on the other side don't pass smoking bans. And with Wisconsin takling about a smoking ban as well, I don't see it really affecting business in Minnesota if both states pass smoking bans.

What the bans have come down to is public health. Non-smokers should have the right to go out to a bar or concert without having to breath in cigarette-smoke-filled air. Smokers still have the right to smoke, but it cannot be indoors, or the indoor space must be separate and provide ample ventilation.

Personall, I didn't really care when the Minneapolis ban was passed, but after seeing concerts after the ban went into effect, I really enjoyed being able to breathe in clean air.

-I didn't realize st. paul passed it, too.
-the concert thing was what made me really happy about it, too. I got so used to going to shows without smelling smoke, and then I went to a show in Chicago and it was soooo gross, and I realized how many dicks there are who throw their lit cigarette butts in the air and watch them land on people.


work, a lot of work. My friend is laid off and I have to come up with the rent money, and all the other bills which is why I work so much. I don't know what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. I'm having car problems= more money. ciggeretts are the only thing that keeps my mind off of all those things.
hahahaha, you're so broke but you buy cigarettes. Oh, the logic. Get a roommate who can keep a job, and how much are you working? I worked 50 hours a week for some time while also going to school part time. And omg I survived the stress. Whiney bitch.

wheelchairman
01-27-2007, 06:49 AM
2 years ago wishomie was like 14. He doesn't have a roommate. He's making this up.

the_GoDdEsS
01-27-2007, 06:52 AM
He acted like 14, but I think he was older. Could have been lodat who was 14. It's confusing with those ones.

wheelchairman
01-27-2007, 06:58 AM
He was in high school. And he certainly wasn't a senior. And I don't think he graduated in the time inbetween. No I think he must be lying.

Paint_It_Black
01-27-2007, 07:12 AM
I get the feeling he's telling the truth.

Endymion
01-27-2007, 11:00 AM
i get the feeling it doesn't fucking matter. it's wishomie -- who gives a fuck about his personal life?

Lodat225
01-27-2007, 11:02 AM
No, he's like 19. Or older, i think.

Tizzalicious
01-27-2007, 11:15 AM
In that case he's even more pathetic than I thought.

Lodat225
01-27-2007, 11:28 AM
Why? 'Cause he's stressed because of all the work he has?

JohnnyNemesis
01-27-2007, 11:40 AM
People don't understand the reason why people smoke. Very few people smoke just to make them look cool. I smoke because of all the stress that I'm going through right now.

So with the million bafuckingjillions of options there are to reduce stress (or at least try to reduce stress), you choose the one thing that's being banned in bars and other areas of major cities across the country, including yours? You choose something that starts a habit that actually costs you a bunch of money, making the stress even worse when you take income into account?

Good fuckin' going, genius. It seriously makes too much sense that your mind works that way.

JoY
01-27-2007, 11:42 AM
cigarettes only calm you down when you're addicted & feel that craving for nicotine, anyway. otherwise the whole calming down-function is one big fucking myth.

JohnnyNemesis
01-27-2007, 11:47 AM
Exactly. It just makes no sense to START under those circumstances. I've always thought it was a little weird to begin smoking at all. If you're already a smoker, I back off because I understand that it's unbelievably difficult to stop. But if you DON'T smoke, I don't understand the incentive to begin. Here's this stuff that smells phenomenally horrible, makes people smell just as bad, fucks up your skin and teeth (sometimes), is damn-near impossible to quit, and costs a helluva lot of money in the long-run...and I can have just as much fun hanging out with people who DO smoke in social situations if I'm just not a fucking insecure lifeless tool with no personality. Hmm, what do I do in that situation? Bah.

With that said, I also need to say that I think that it's fucking stupid to go after individual smokers and attack them. It's just STUPID. Addicition is crazy shit and attacking addicts solves fucking NOTHING.

Lodat225
01-27-2007, 11:53 AM
Cigarettes are fucking expensive. (So i've heard)

HeadAroundU
01-27-2007, 12:01 PM
I'm allergic to shitloads of things combined with a light form of asthma. Cigarette smoke is a trigger for allergies (I believe it's proved but I'm not gonna give you a link). Now, I'm in perfect physical condition but when I imagine high school living, every fucking week in a bar full of smoke, I feel guiltily. It certainly didn't help to my health, thanx god I'm a sportsman so I'm ok. I don't visit bars anymore but what am I gonna do if I'll be invited to celebrate friend's birthday in a bar full of smoke? I have a choice, not going. :( :( :(

JoY
01-27-2007, 12:09 PM
Ricky; oh yes, fully fucking agreed.

I remember the exact moment I started smoking. I was seventeen & had been quite the antismoking-campaign on legs before that. I wanted my father to quit (anti-smoking stickers all over the house - this was of course when I a little Bella), I wanted my best friend to quit (always ripped the cigarettes out of her mouth, because she didn't know how to smoke, wasn't addicted & it looked outright stupid - still does), I wanted my other best friend to quit, I wanted the whole world to quit.

until one day a handsome Italian man in Rome gave me a cigarette. I refused & said I found them repulsive. he asked me not to smoke it, but to keep it with me as a reminder of him, because he had nothing on him that he could give me otherwise. I have no idea why he did that, I didn't even know the guy, & I have even less of an idea why, after he insisted many times, eventually I accepted the offer & indeed brought that single cigarette safe & sound with me to the Netherlands.

at home I put it somewhere & I kind of forgot about it. well, I didn't, but I wanted to think that I did. weeks later I got it out of the drawer it was waiting for me in. I was feeling incredibly down. a lot was going on, a lot was wrong & I just didn't feel like it still mattered. at that moment I just wanted to see what I'd been trying to stop everyone from doing & I didn't care anymore that this would take doing it myself. everything had turned me down at that point, so maybe, since I had such a negative view on smoking, this could do the opposite. I played with the single Italian cigarette for minutes to hours in my hands. "Marlboro light" in gold letters. it wasn't anymore in one piece, but I figured that shouldn't be a problem. eventually I lit it. I inhaled. it was great. I assured myself this was my new occasional habit, never to become an addiction. a little over a year later I was pretty much addicted. not badly, that came when I was twenty.

this written down pretty much for everyone, who now doesn't smoke. I shouldn't ever have been so ridiculously anti-smoking, because when every view I had on the world collapsed, that was the first thing that turned itself against me. plus, it was fucking stupid. I shouldn't have been so naive to think I could make this my very enjoyable habit without getting addicted, either. I don't think I really thought that, though. I had to make myself believe that to make others believe it & I just didn't care if I'd get addicted.

I can't believe I just wrote all of this down. I'm such a nerd.

Camel Filters
01-27-2007, 03:31 PM
hahahaha, you're so broke but you buy cigarettes. Oh, the logic. Get a roommate who can keep a job, and how much are you working? I worked 50 hours a week for some time while also going to school part time. And omg I survived the stress. Whiney bitch.

He got laid off, he didn't get fired. Learn the difference. You can't control getting laid off. At Ariens, I was was working 51 hours a week for 2 months plus working at Subway on weekends. Then I got a different job with benifits right before they starting laying people off for the holidays. They were on 10 and 9 hour days right before I started.

Camel Filters
01-27-2007, 03:33 PM
He was in high school. And he certainly wasn't a senior. And I don't think he graduated in the time inbetween. No I think he must be lying.

I was a senior last year, dumbfuck. I graduated last June and my life has really changed.

Camel Filters
01-27-2007, 03:35 PM
i get the feeling it doesn't fucking matter. it's wishomie -- who gives a fuck about his personal life?

If it doesn't matter then why has my thread reached the 3rd page (if you have 40 posts/page)

wheelchairman
01-27-2007, 03:36 PM
I was a senior last year, dumbfuck. I graduated last June and my life has really changed.

You see, but why should I believe you? You're a loser with friends prone to lying (like LODAT).

JoY
01-27-2007, 03:37 PM
At Ariens,

do you pronounce that as "Aryans"? just wondering.

Camel Filters
01-27-2007, 03:39 PM
do you pronounce that as "Aryans"? just wondering.

We pronoune it just like the name, Aaron. Ariens make's snow blowers and lawn mowers.

Little_Miss_1565
01-27-2007, 03:48 PM
He got laid off, he didn't get fired. Learn the difference. You can't control getting laid off. At Ariens, I was was working 51 hours a week for 2 months plus working at Subway on weekends. Then I got a different job with benifits right before they starting laying people off for the holidays. They were on 10 and 9 hour days right before I started.

We're subletting out one of my roommate's rooms because she can't pay the rent. She lost her job and couldn't seem to be bothered to get another one. Bottom line, if you can work two jobs to pull down enough to pay for both of your rents, your friend can work one shitty job to make his half. Laid off or not, there are always burgers to be flipped.

Lodat225
01-27-2007, 04:29 PM
So, you guys are arguing with him because he helps his friend? Gotcha.

Little_Miss_1565
01-27-2007, 05:17 PM
So, you guys are arguing with him because he helps his friend? Gotcha.

No, because he is willfully martyring himself when it isn't necessary, yet acting like it is.

Paint_It_Black
01-27-2007, 05:26 PM
If it doesn't matter then why has my thread reached the 3rd page (if you have 40 posts/page)

Well, it has something to do with you making 3 consecutive posts when you could have just made one.

JoY
01-27-2007, 05:28 PM
1565; well, yes. & the fact Camel Filters seems to think superexpensivo cigarettes are going to help with handling the stress of money-problems. that still baffles me.

Little_Miss_1565
01-27-2007, 05:46 PM
1565; well, yes. & the fact Camel Filters seems to think superexpensivo cigarettes are going to help with handling the stress of money-problems. that still baffles me.

Doh, yes, that too. But I think it might still fall under the category of martyring oneself.

JohnnyNemesis
01-27-2007, 05:54 PM
I want wishomie (Camel Filters) to respond to my earlier posts in this thread. I'm curious as to what he thinks.

JoY
01-28-2007, 05:01 AM
Doh, yes, that too. But I think it might still fall under the category of martyring oneself.

good point. *nods*

killer_queen
01-28-2007, 05:22 AM
Bella, that story.. actually worked on me. And it's kinda weird because I rarely care about other people's experiences. I don't know why but I've always wanted to smoke. My parents were like chimneys since I was little. Everyone around me was smoking and I thought (and sadly, still think) it was cool.
Every year I decide to start smoking but I always end up not doing it. I was pretty determined this year since I got no one to tell me not to do it but now, I just don't want to.

This also means if I ever get too feel left out because of not smoking you'll be the first one to blame.

JoY
01-28-2007, 05:48 AM
sure, sure. but it'll save you a LOT of money, a lot of troubles, a smelly wardrobe, a lot of cigarette burning holes in your clothes, furniture & skin (I'm clumsy) & an addiction that I find pretty hard to beat. I mean, I've been on a non-smoking period at times, but I'd always start again, because it's way less of a step to start smoking again, than starting to smoke period.

one thing comes with addiction; fooling yourself. you make it right & justify it to others, thus to yourself. I promise others I'll quit before my studies end, which used to be; "I'll quit before I'm 25". medicine.. is a six year study, of which I'm in my second year. I'm 22, so I won't finish medicine until I'm 26 & then I still have five years to specialise. see what I mean? I already stretched it to the age of 31 by saying I'd quit before my studies end. plus, when you're addicted, there's always an excuse to smoke. "but it makes my coffee taste better!", "but when drinking, I enjoy it that much more!", "I am reeeally stressed right now!", "I passed my exam, it's time for celebration!"... the list goes on. see where this is going? some of these can also be excuses to start smoking.

honestly, I never thought it was particularly cool, but I did think, among everything else, that it was pretty cool to do something no one ever expected me to do & to make people flabbergasted & shocked every time I lit a cigarette. everyone, who knows me from back then, is still like; "you smoke??! oh right, I forgot about that. I just don't see you at all as a smoker." & everyone I met here, in Amsterdam, which forms most of my world nowadays, is like; "you're quitting? but you're the ultimate smoker! I thought you'd be the last one to give up on smoking!"

images change fast. *lights a cigarette* 'give up on smoking', that's another thing. like you're leaving cigarettes & the tobacco industry to rot & you're turning your back on them. it's almost like it's a commitment. people don't see me any other way anymore than with a cigarette in my mouth, so I'll always get offered cigarettes, showed where the smoking-area is, asked to have a smoke with them outside... addiction sneaks up on you, even if you think you can handle it & quit anyway. if it would be just beating the addiction to nicotine, that'd make it relatively easy, but it's the habit, other people feeding it, everything. it makes you egocentric, because you act on the craving of your body & mind. I must add that I'm easily addicted, but of all the addictions I've had, nailbiting & smoking are the hardest ones to beat. it's just such a fucking habit that sneaks into your behaviour & daily patters & it's socially accepted & everything.

& I'm glad what I said made a difference to at least someone. I'm even happier that it happens to be someone that matters to me.

Paint_It_Black
01-28-2007, 11:38 AM
Gulsah, don't ever smoke. You'll regret it. Everyday I regret ever starting.

Little_Miss_1565
01-28-2007, 12:52 PM
Congrats, Maria, you are that much closer to looking like a grizzled old man.

Camel Filters
01-28-2007, 05:20 PM
it's fuckin bullshit how people say that ciggeretts are addictive and it's hard to stop. If I wanted to, I could quit right now. I just have a little extra fun money saved up and I choose to spend it on ciggeretts cause I have nothing better to spend it on.

JoY
01-28-2007, 05:27 PM
Camel Filters; you are fucking bullshit. even your fucking name is dedicated to cigarettes.

fine, so you say you aren't addicted. you don't speak of ever attempting to quit either. no one fucking cares, anyway. but millions & millions of people are addicted & can't even quit after they had two lung lobes removed & twenty sessions of chemo.

I've seen a guy with oxygen straight up his nose with one single lung left, asking me to bring him to the smoking room, when in fact, if he'd give up right after the operation, he would have a perfectly good chance to live quite a healthy, happy, respectively long life. he'd tried to quit during the process of his disease. oh yes. over 23 times. & if you dare calling someone, who survives lungcancer & learns to live with one fucking lung, a loser for being unable to stop smoking, you're so incredibly, extremely goddamn retarded & ignorant, I am not going to waste another single second on you.

0r4ng3
01-28-2007, 05:27 PM
"Nothing better to spend it on"? Didn't you say you had money problems? Like, isn't that what half of this thread is about?

JoY
01-28-2007, 05:28 PM
"Nothing better to spend it on"? Didn't you say you had money problems? Like, isn't that what half of this thread is about?

hah! I <3 u.

wheelchairman
01-28-2007, 05:29 PM
Funny thing is, he's speaking word for word like an addict.

"I can stop whenever I want! I just don't want to."

It's like I told Phil,
"I can quit smoking the waterpipe whenever I can't afford it anymore." Which happened monthly at the time.

JoY
01-28-2007, 05:31 PM
it's pretty much what I said at 18, except I at least didn't believe it myself.

Paint_It_Black
01-28-2007, 10:51 PM
Yeah, basically everyone says that, and sometimes it's true. Problem is, we don't quit when we still can pretty easily. We wait until we realize we're addicted then go "oh shit, I better quit". Then find it's hard.

HornyPope
01-29-2007, 12:11 AM
I smoke more than I did before but I still limit myself to an odd fag I pick in a bar or so. What makes temptation so much harder is I usualy have cigs at home or in car to mix in a joint, but i'm generally firm in my decision to not smoke.

JoY
01-29-2007, 04:20 AM
Yeah, basically everyone says that, and sometimes it's true. Problem is, we don't quit when we still can pretty easily. We wait until we realize we're addicted then go "oh shit, I better quit". Then find it's hard.

exactly. when you're not yet addicted & you say; "hey, I can quit whenever I want to", I believe you. but it's when people pass that point & still say; "hey I can quit whenever I want to", that it becomes pathetic. at first they say it because it's true, meaning they could quit, but they won't, because it isn't a nasty addiction yet, so everything seems fine.

Nina
01-29-2007, 08:40 AM
A local pub/restaurant near me used a bit of rope to seperate the smoking and non-smoking sections.

Almost all the places in Germany are like that. True, smokers can "do whatever the fuck they want", but I want to be able to sit in a restaurant and not inhale any of that smoke at all. If it wasnt for the fact that the majority of places in Germany have that dumbfuck logic as stated above, I'd just avoid the crappy restaurants. grah, Germany. *shakes fist*


But really, everyone who is against smokers in bars is just too whiney.

I actually agree with that. I guess it is a well known fact that people will smoke a LOT when they are in a bar, or that the effect of it is bigger in such places. Sucks for people like me who will get so incredibly teary-eyed that I cant even see anything after half an hour, but tough luck. I can live with not going to bars. Other people should be able to do the same.
You dont go to a rock concert and say "ooohhh sshhuunnn, I wish they'd play classical music", either.

But while I say all this, I still gotta agree with...



As you may have gathered I don't smoke, so honestly theres no down-side to it at all for me, not only will I be able to see in front of myself because of the lack of smoke in the air, but I won't be left coughing like mad in the morning along with my hangover.
Awesome.

My thoughts exactly. I'd personally LOVE it if there was a 100% smoking ban. I dont think it's gonna happen though.




Who are you to tell me I can't smoke if I want to? It ain't gonna kill you. There is no proof it'll give you cancer. You're just an annoying person who likes to whine and make everybody miserable.


wtf.
Who are you to tell me that I have to smoke passively?
I did agree with what you said above, but fact is, the smoke cannot be avoided everywhere. Just today I was in a restaurant, in the non-smoking section, but I smelled the smoke of both cigarrettes and cigars. It was disgusting. I wanted to enjoy my cake, but people do make it difficult, and that everyday.
Again, I did agree with what you said about how people should stop whining and just avoid places, but you cant not go to restaurants at all anymore, and you really actually SHOULDNT just because some self-righteous smoking people think that they can literally "do whatever I want".

I think it's the smokers who are often "snobs", not the other way around.

Zeall
01-29-2007, 09:02 AM
I used to smoke when i was in middle school, but i kept getting really pissed of that i couldn't even run 5 laps around the whole school anymore, and then that put me in a bad mood. I finally decided to quit and actually went as far as to teach myself to hate the smell of it, now it just doesn't tempt me anymore, in fact, i feel sick when i smell it. At least now i can run a fair distance without getting too out of breath, i don't believe i'll ever fully recover, it was such a stupid mistake.

anyway, now when i smell people smoking near me, i move away, but if that isn't an option, i get really pissed off for the rest of the day.

wheelchairman
01-29-2007, 01:24 PM
Who are you to tell me that I have to smoke passively?
I did agree with what you said above, but fact is, the smoke cannot be avoided everywhere. Just today I was in a restaurant, in the non-smoking section, but I smelled the smoke of both cigarrettes and cigars. It was disgusting. I wanted to enjoy my cake, but people do make it difficult, and that everyday.
Again, I did agree with what you said about how people should stop whining and just avoid places, but you cant not go to restaurants at all anymore, and you really actually SHOULDNT just because some self-righteous smoking people think that they can literally "do whatever I want".
The snobbishness comes from you deciding what others may or may not do. (Not you as in you personally, but you as in plural.) The smell of cigarettes ruined a perfectly enjoyable cake experience, how...horrible. It's not "I can do whatever I want." It's "you have no right to tell me what I may do." You could even go as far as "I chose not to spend my money in facilities that just plain suck at designing smoking sections. Hello to your closest competitor mister bakery owner." It's your own choice, I don't care. But "Your smoking ruined a cake experience for me, ergo you should never be allowed to smoke in public again. I'm not a snob, you are being self-righteous you prick."

No I don't follow, sorry.

Whiplash
01-29-2007, 01:43 PM
Funny thing is, he's speaking word for word like an addict.

"I can stop whenever I want! I just don't want to."

It's like I told Phil,
"I can quit smoking the waterpipe whenever I can't afford it anymore." Which happened monthly at the time.


I did quit smoking last new year. I have had like 5 cigarettes since. I know its not totally stopping but its a good start. I did smoke a couple of joints though, but hey they lyke don't count.

wheelchairman
01-29-2007, 01:47 PM
Hey that's great man. My comment was about you. Tell me more. :)

Whiplash
01-29-2007, 01:50 PM
Well, I didn't fully stop i smoke sometimes but only when i'm going out. but thats ok i guess. I used to smoke all day long but the price of a pack is a bitch. its like 3.20 euro's for 19 smokes. How mutch does it cost in Denmark?

Nina
01-29-2007, 02:00 PM
The snobbishness comes from you deciding what others may or may not do. (Not you as in you personally, but you as in plural.) The smell of cigarettes ruined a perfectly enjoyable cake experience, how...horrible. It's not "I can do whatever I want." It's "you have no right to tell me what I may do." You could even go as far as "I chose not to spend my money in facilities that just plain suck at designing smoking sections. Hello to your closest competitor mister bakery owner." It's your own choice, I don't care. But "Your smoking ruined a cake experience for me, ergo you should never be allowed to smoke in public again. I'm not a snob, you are being self-righteous you prick."

No I don't follow, sorry.

Where did all of this come from?

All I am saying is, if you say that smokers are not to be told to not smoke, I can as well state that non-smokers are not to be told to just tolerate smoke everywhere. (I am trying to make a point come across, I dont actually STATE this. Do you now see what I mean?) It's not about the silly cake, it's about the fact that smokers can often be inconsiderate of their entire enviornment.

I personally never claimed that people shouldnt smoke in public, I just stated that it bothers me, and that I think it's pretty shitty of smokers to just take the entire room, even if it is seperated with a rope, because "they are allowed to smoke". Sure they are, but it is going to bother me. You, and nobody else, can tell me to not go outside of my own home anymore because I cant tolerate smoke. That shouldnt be the case. You do what you just state that you hate: On the one hand you say "smokers shouldnt be told not to smoke", and on the other hand you tell non-smokers to "just go away!!111" everytime someone around them smokes. I dont consider that a solution, as humans should be able to live together although they have different ideas of how a public place should be like.

Thus, neither a complete ban of smoking, nor complete freedom for smokers is going to solve anything. I thought I had made clear before that I believe that, but maybe it didnt come across that well.

I also wished you'd soften your tone. ;(

wheelchairman
01-29-2007, 02:12 PM
But there is a discernation between telling people not to smoke and not handling smoke.

Because let's face it, unless you are completely surrounded by a circle of chain smoking friends you'll be fine outside. And I agree with you that the law is stupid (hence my tone, I have no patience for stupid things, and I won't pretend to. Not that I thought you were stupid. I was ridiculing the law and your example.) I offered my opinion of a fine solution in my ridicule though, take your money somewhere else. There should be enough consumer support for smoke free restaurants and cafes and bakeries and concert places to make many businesses super profitable. There shouldn't be a need for a law.

But no, apparently there aren't enough non smokers to make such businesses profitable. So governments appeal to the loudest group (and make themselves look like they are being active) by an all out ban. It's disgusting on every level.

And it's just a level of snobbishness I dislike. It's a short step from saying "You shouldn't smoke." to "You shouldn't be fat you slob" or whatever stupid matter it is that most people have no right to talk about. And the fat thing I chose, because I've already heard enough examples of that. It is something I fear will be the next step. Where people will feel empowered with the right to judge all manners and habits of life. Wherein my personal opinion is the opposite, the best way is to not interfere with anything that doesn't seriously harm your way of life.

Tizzalicious
01-29-2007, 03:27 PM
Except fat people don't bother anyone, while smokers do.

wheelchairman
01-29-2007, 03:29 PM
Except fat people don't bother anyone, while smokers do.

Except they do bother people. Or at least people have started to feel they have the right to tell fat people to lose weight because they are bothered by them. So yeah...it's gotten so bad it's a good parallel actually.

Lodat225
01-29-2007, 03:30 PM
Except fat people don't bother anyone, while smokers do.

Fat people bother me.

Tizzalicious
01-29-2007, 03:30 PM
I really don't think you can compare the two. People who told fatties they bother them are idiots, being bothered by smoke is a whole different thing.

wheelchairman
01-29-2007, 03:33 PM
But seriously, people who are annoyed by smoke in the air are such fucking victim-wannabes. They have all the power to go somewhere else, but chose not to. Instead they chose to whine about it. I think they are just the loudest whiners, and that they are a small minority, because there don't seem to be enough of them to make smoke-free establishments. It's as though this solution never seems to fucking occur to them. Or just go to establishments with better thresholds/barriers between smokers and non-smokers.

Or organize trips to bars that have better sections, I mean seriously. If you don't want to make any choices, then don't complain about the choices made for you.

JoY
01-29-2007, 03:42 PM
Well, I didn't fully stop i smoke sometimes but only when i'm going out. but thats ok i guess. I used to smoke all day long but the price of a pack is a bitch. its like 3.20 euro's for 19 smokes. How mutch does it cost in Denmark?

you smoked L&M???!

oh god, *runs to nearby toilet with hand over her mouth*.
kid, if you did smoke L&M; it's not worth it. it's reeeeally not worth it.

JoY
01-29-2007, 04:03 PM
Tizz, Nins & Per; I see all three of your points. of course, as a smoker I'm tempted to pick Per's side, because well, aside from me mostly agreeing with him, it's most convenient for me.

what I said earlier.. about countries making a huge profit from their smokers & sucking those nicotine addicts out like a bunch of ticks.. however being hypocrites, trying to "demotivate" smokers, while it's been carefully calculated to which price a pack of cigarettes can be raised to keep people buying their beloved ciggies..

you have to understand; smoking is big business. profit from cigarettes, profit from tax money, profit from early, quick deaths... not to mention anti-smoking campaigns. society earns big bucks on us tools. they pretend to fucking care, by raising the prices, saying it'll demotivate smokers to smoke, when they've calculated in detail that this won't be the case. they pretend to care, by making a smoke-free section in restaurants, diners, et cetera, when there could be no worse disaster to the economy than if every smoker would quit. the non-smoking hype is just growing & growing & the mentallity of more & more people is affected by it, because now suddenly everyone feels bothered by smokers. & I thought I was bad when I was nine, putting anti-smoking stickers on every door in our house.

I understand it can burn in your eyes. I understand it causes shortness of breath, hell, I'd be the first one to understand that, because I have bronchitis at least thrice a year. but there are so many more people out there, that don't experience that burn in their eyes & that shortness of breath. a law.. coming from a hypocritical standpoint.. that's basically being forced on everyone, is not the way to solve the problem. as I said; society should either be glad nicotine addicts are feeding their economy, or just take the fucking things off the market. to be completely honest with you; I'd be most grateful if they did the second option, because then I'd know for sure everyone would just shut. the. hell. up.

Paint_It_Black
01-29-2007, 04:11 PM
This is a subject no one ever changes their opinion on.

JoY
01-29-2007, 04:16 PM
oh I changed my opinion, brotha. *southern accent* right when I lit my first cigarette at 17.

& then again at 20, when my boyfriend clearified so excellently that I was addicted to the damn things.

wheelchairman
01-29-2007, 04:21 PM
I've changed my opinion before on this as well.

But personally the only complaint I see is that they don't like the smoke. (Which really is no different than Dain's dislike for the word pollo.)

If they were intelligent, they would research find places that are smoke free, or have great sections, and then organize drinking trips to those places. But instead these people just let others organize for them, and then whine about it. I simply don't get it. If they don't have the will to change it themselves, then they deserve smoke in their face.

JoY
01-29-2007, 04:50 PM
yeah, well.. for most part I agree, but this is a point where we differ. I wouldn't be so harsh about it. especially not with me making myself sick with smoking, let alone meaning/intending to make other sick aswel, who just want to be around me & take the time to spend time with me. not that I've ever made anyone else sick, or whatever, but I'd understand & I'd exhale in a different direction for them & all of that. I can adjust. a little bit, at least. for some people even a whole lot.

JohnnyNemesis
01-29-2007, 04:52 PM
Smoking is 4 fagz.

There lies my most sophisticated argument lololol.

wheelchairman
01-29-2007, 04:54 PM
yeah, well.. for most part I agree, but this is a point where we differ. I wouldn't be so harsh about it. especially not with me making myself sick with smoking, let alone meaning/intending to make other sick aswel, who just want to be around me & take the time to spend time with me. not that I've ever made anyone else sick, or whatever, but I'd understand & I'd exhale in a different direction for them & all of that. I can adjust. a little bit, at least. for some people even a whole lot.

If a friend asked you to go to a smoke free bar, would you not go?

JoY
01-29-2007, 04:57 PM
depends on how close this friend is. & it depends on the chances that I could drag him/her to a regular bar. I'm in for "experiences" like that, if it means spending time with friends.

& this why I like just spending time drinking in my bedroom with friends. fuck, how can anyone complain, if it's MY bedroom? second hand smoke, fuck, I get first hand smoke & SLEEP in second hand smoke.
..every day of my life. :/

0r4ng3
01-29-2007, 05:04 PM
Smoking is 4 fagz.

There lies my most sophisticated argument lololol.
lol, fagz=cigarettes

Sin Studly
01-29-2007, 06:11 PM
Props to ; Joy and Camel Filters for making their smoking habits sound like a bad midday movie about one child's battle against their addiction.

Props to ; Nina for thinking people are being self-righteous for putting their own personal habits above her habit for eating cake in smoking establishments, and not agreeing with her that they should all hide from the public eye like pariah so she can eat her cake in peace. What self-righteous assholes, how dare they step into public view where Nina might be eating some cake.

Props to ; Tizz for claiming people who are bothered by things that don't bother her are idiots, while claiming the things that bother her are relevent and should be taken into account.

Props to ; Wheelchairman for being a stinking red commie-fag who used free-market capitalist theories to further his arguments against State intervention on businesses.

Biggest props to ; JohnnyNemesis for just giving the fuck up on this whole debate, like we all should have done from the first post.


My opinion on the issue ; People who walk the entire length of the working-class sports pub just to get within earshot of me and put on that pathetic fake-cough to try and shame me into putting out my cigarette are assholes, and I usually switch to cigars and blow my smoke directly at them after they do it. Especially if they're pregnant.

Now, who the fuck gave those assholes governmental voice?

JoY
01-29-2007, 06:46 PM
wowow, I refuse to be labelled in the same category as Camel Filters; I am in no way a victim of my own addiction. I started it, I fed it, I'll have to deal with it. I was just more naive than I am now & now it's too late to say anything else, but openly say that I'm a fucking addict, I'd say so if it'd remotely make a difference. I don't personally really care, except it's not exactly ideal. but some people are in the state I once was & can still be stopped from making a pretty useless, expensive, stupid choice. if I can supply info on how I once started, why not?

Sin Studly
01-29-2007, 06:49 PM
Is your child a "nicotine addict"? Stay tuned for more, on the lifestyle channel.

wheelchairman
01-29-2007, 06:52 PM
And pfff we all know I'm probably one of the worst communists there is.

JoY
01-29-2007, 07:00 PM
Is your child a "nicotine addict"? Stay tuned for more, on the lifestyle channel.

that's a result of alcohol & poor English. (excuses, excuses)

JohnnyNemesis
01-29-2007, 07:10 PM
Jesse and Justin's posts on this page make me happy on the inside and out.

Little_Miss_1565
01-29-2007, 07:19 PM
Per, your logic would be sound except for one thing--you presuppose that smoke-free bars exist, which at least in this country, they don't outside of cities that have a smoking ban.

And with all the to-do about people telling others what they can and cannot do, why is it that banning smoking in restaurants and bars is telling smokers that they can't smoke, and yet many people smoking heavily in these same places isn't seen as forcing non-smokers to smoke?

wheelchairman
01-29-2007, 07:32 PM
Because they aren't forcing non-smokers to smoke. Non-smokers choose to be there with the smokers.

I don't know about the states. But I would imagine that there are smoke free places outside of places with bans. Or places with decent barriers between the two. It's a matter of research. It's probably a matter of a google search and that's it. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere.

Unless of course these types of establishments are incredibly unprofitable. Which then begs the question, is the minority of unsatisfied people large, or just loud?

Personally I place my money on these places existing.

Paint_It_Black
01-29-2007, 08:52 PM
This is a subject no one ever changes their opinion on.

Apparently there was some confusion. I meant this is a subject (smoking in public places, not just smoking in general) that no adult ever changes their opinion on. I was hinting that this entire discussion is one big fucking waste of time because everyone already knows what they believe, and they know what the other side believes, and nobody is going to give a crap what anyone else thinks about it.

Sin Studly
01-29-2007, 10:22 PM
Per, your logic would be sound except for one thing--you presuppose that smoke-free bars exist, which at least in this country, they don't outside of cities that have a smoking ban.

No non-smoking bars in the heart of capitalism, doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't it tell you that the people who want smoke-free bars aren't significantly large enough to be catered to, and therefore shouldn't be forcing their demands on the majority. And in a nation that has commercial outlets catering to pretty much every whim and fancy possible, that says a lot about the amount of people who want smoke-free bars.

Little_Miss_1565
01-30-2007, 01:17 AM
Per, you can bet all you want, but you'd still be incorrect. Restaurants frequently ban smoking outside a city ordinance, but that might have more to do with how cigarette smoke in the air changes how the food tastes.


No non-smoking bars in the heart of capitalism, doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't it tell you that the people who want smoke-free bars aren't significantly large enough to be catered to, and therefore shouldn't be forcing their demands on the majority. And in a nation that has commercial outlets catering to pretty much every whim and fancy possible, that says a lot about the amount of people who want smoke-free bars.

...except how when cities ban smoking, the surrounding towns/cities that allow it don't enjoy an increase in patronage. The same smokers keep going to the same bars where they are no longer allowed to smoke indoors. Additionally, you're presupposing that it's a majority of the American population that smokes. Must be an incredibly pussy majority, as an estimated 43 million people in a country of 301 million smoke (source (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4559)). And that's probably a very high estimate since the American Heart Association wants people to see smoking as an out of control epidemic and has more incentive to inflate those numbers. But even if they cut the number of smokers estimated in half, there's still a non-smoking majority.

And when did we stop talking about how Wishomie loves martyring himself?

Sin Studly
01-30-2007, 03:14 AM
I'm not presupposing the majority of Americans smoke. I'm presupposing the majority of Americans don't whine like fuck about secondhand smoke in bars.

If there was a market for smoke-free bars, there'd be smoke-free bars. The fact that there aren't smoke-free bars mean that the people that want them are just a ridiculously loud minority who want to enforce their preferences on everybody else.


Example ;
I go into a bar. The bar plays loud music by The Offspring. I do not like this music, and will not enjoy my experience in this bar. I react by....

a) Leaving and finding a more pleasant bar to drink in
b) Writing letters to congressmen like a sobbing fag demanding The Offspring be banned in bars.

I choose option a)
I leave the bar and its offensively bad music, and search for another one. To my dismay, I find that the next three bars I visit are all playing The Offspring. This saddens me. I react by...

a) Going home and research where there are non-Offspring bars
b) Writing letters to congressmen like a sobbing fag demanding The Offspring be banned in bars.

I once again choose option a)
I go home and log onto the internet. After a brief search, it comes to my attention that all bars play offensively loud Offspring music. I react by....

a) Realising that offensively loud Offspring music is an integral part of bar atmosphere, and choose to either put up with it or not go to bars.
b) Writing letters to congressmen like a sobbing fag demanding The Offspring be banned in bars.

That's the long and short of it. Bars are supposed to be heavy with tobacco smoke, stale beer, and the acrid stench of old sweat. If that offends you, you don't belong in a bar. In my invented parallel universe where bars are supposed to play the Offspring really loud, I wouldn't belong in bar.

Nina
01-30-2007, 03:29 AM
Per, it seems like you ignore the most important points.



Because let's face it, unless you are completely surrounded by a circle of chain smoking friends you'll be fine outside.


You do it again..



You do what you just state that you hate: On the one hand you say "smokers shouldnt be told not to smoke", and on the other hand you tell non-smokers to "just go away!!111" everytime someone around them smokes.





Or organize trips to bars that have better sections, I mean seriously. If you don't want to make any choices, then don't complain about the choices made for you.

Who are you speaking to? Nobody in this topic with half a brain said that the ban should happen, and people said they'd like to have those smoke-free establishments. It's just kinda weird that it sounds like you have a huge rant about it, but about whom are you talking to? At least nobody in the topic.




Props to ; Nina for thinking people are being self-righteous for putting their own personal habits above her habit for eating cake in smoking establishments, and not agreeing with her that they should all hide from the public eye like pariah so she can eat her cake in peace. What self-righteous assholes, how dare they step into public view where Nina might be eating some cake.


You are so.fucking stupid. I couldnt have chosen my words MORE carefully so that people wont think what you just stated.



All I am saying is, if you say that smokers are not to be told to not smoke, I can as well state that non-smokers are not to be told to just tolerate smoke everywhere. (I am trying to make a point come across, I dont actually STATE this. Do you now see what I mean?) It's not about the silly cake, it's about the fact that smokers can often be inconsiderate of their entire enviornment.

I personally never claimed that people shouldnt smoke in public, I just stated that it bothers me, and that I think it's pretty shitty of smokers to just take the entire room, even if it is seperated with a rope, because "they are allowed to smoke". Sure they are, but [...]

wheelchairman
01-30-2007, 03:52 AM
That first quote there was based on something I had misread, and is pretty much useless.

The second one is, I know you don't like smoke, but you also don't go out drinking so it doesn't apply to you entirely. It's just if you did go out, and for the people who don't like smoking but do like drinking did go out, they should take matters into their own hands, instead of whining so goddamn much (those people who drink and hate smoke.) That's my stance. It's not that "non smokers should just fucking shut up and deal with their smoking oppressors." I'm just saying some initiative would do them a world of good in changing their sad plight.

Sin Studly
01-30-2007, 04:14 AM
I couldnt have chosen my words MORE carefully so that people wont think what you just stated.

Ah, but you could have, herr frauline. A small child could have. A small child with Downs syndrome could have. Example....


I'd personally LOVE it if there was a 100% smoking ban.

If this is your idea of carefully choosing your words so that people won't think you're in favour of a 100% smoking ban, you really need to either choose your words even MORE carefully, or hire that small child with Downs syndrome.

Tizzalicious
01-30-2007, 04:26 AM
Just because she would love it if there was one, doesn't mean she thinks it SHOULD be there.

Sin Studly
01-30-2007, 04:41 AM
Puh-lease, she's German. How many Jews said "Don't worry, just because they WANT us all gone doesn't mean they think we SHOULD be exterminated"?

Six million, that's how many.

Whiplash
01-30-2007, 05:46 AM
you smoked L&M???!

oh god, *runs to nearby toilet with hand over her mouth*.
kid, if you did smoke L&M; it's not worth it. it's reeeeally not worth it.


No way L&M sucks, i'm a pall mall kinda guy.

Little_Miss_1565
01-30-2007, 06:57 AM
LOL, as though Pall Mall was something to be even more proud of.

Justin, there are bars like that. There's one near my apartment that has a dominatrix night ever Tuesday, where you can enjoy the sounds of THWACK! 'THANK YOU MOMMY MAY I HAVE ANOTHER' with your beer. However, not every inch of a country has to be a prison country. I know this might be difficult to pull off in Australia, but in the US, it's not.

And for crying out loud, if this was a case of the non-smoking "minority" unfairly forcing their will on other bar patrons, wouldn't there be a backlash of some kind? Except there's not but for people in this thread who don't live in the US, or are very young and LOVE to play the martyr.

Sin Studly
01-30-2007, 07:16 AM
Just so you know, these laws are coming into effect throughout the entire western world. We have a pub smoking ban taking effect in October of this year. And while publicans and the vast majority of pub-attending people are against it, there will be no backlash because the loud and whining minority seems to always, always scream louder than the majority. We're not activists, we just want a cigarette and a beer in peace, like our forefathers have been having for the last few centuries. We don't put up a 'backlash' because we're not assholes.

Little_Miss_1565
01-30-2007, 07:18 AM
We don't put up a 'backlash' because we're not assholes.

No, just pussies. If you're really in the majority, fucking act like it somewhere that isn't the internets. Or you can keep whingeing and being a martyr for 'not being an asshole.'

Sin Studly
01-30-2007, 07:25 AM
Have you ever been to a pub? Ever??? Seriously, go to one and take a look around. Look at the type of people who frequent those places. Tell me how many people of them are the type you can imagine handing out political leaflets? How many people can you imagine organising a protest rally? This doesn't apply to student-pubs, because they're pathetic, but honestly, what on earth makes you think that the decent salt-of-the-earth type folks are gonna stoop to college-kid political activism?

These are normal people we're talking about. The majority, the proles, the plebes, the seething masses. They're not the dreadlocked protesting hackeysack fringe groups who'd protest not having anything to protest if there was nothing for them to cry about. If you actually expect there to be some kind of political protest from normal people, you're living in a college fantasy-world.

JohnnyNemesis
01-30-2007, 07:35 AM
I'm gonna try to stay out of this debate as much as possible because it's pointless, but I think that when she said that the majority should act like the majority, she probably wasn't referring to picketing and shit like that because that's never been the kind of thing the majority does (as you pointed out).

I'm not sure exactly what she meant (I'll let her explain), but it could be the more common "viciously and tacitly destroying the will of the loud minority in situations such as these", whatever that ends up being.

Sin Studly
01-30-2007, 07:42 AM
In Australia? That means shank-war, and this isn't important enough to sharpen the toothbrushes over.

Lodat225
01-30-2007, 01:34 PM
Smoking is for the lose.

wheelchairman
01-30-2007, 01:45 PM
Acting like a majority, but without being politically active?

I'm not sure quite what you are expecting. I'd be happy enough if the law went up to referendum, instead of politicians catering to a lobby to gain a few points and all that jazz.

sKratch
01-30-2007, 02:47 PM
Umm... I'm willing to bet that the tobacco lobby is MUCH more powerful than the "We don't like second hand smoke" lobby...

JoY
01-30-2007, 02:52 PM
as was said in Thank You For Smoking; "we don't sell Tic Tacs, we sell cigarettes. & they're cool, available & addictive. the job is almost done for us."

wheelchairman
01-30-2007, 02:53 PM
oh definitely. I haven't researched it at all, but I'm guessing it's just a move done because

a) it won't put anyone against any major politicians if they do, do it.
b)the tobacco lobby knows they will still sell almost the exact same amount of cigarettes before and after.

And a host of other things like this.

Little_Miss_1565
01-30-2007, 08:50 PM
By 'fucking act like the majority,' I mean do something other than whine about how repressed you are. Have a smoke with whoever the fuck makes such cig banning decisions, maybe the owner of your favorite pub, and tell him/her that you and your friends will shank the shit out of him/her if this smoking ban goes through. Then the owner of the pub (and the owners of other pubs) will do all the leafletting and petitioning for referendum for you.

HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED CAN'T YOU SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM!

wheelchairman
01-31-2007, 08:53 AM
By 'fucking act like the majority,' I mean do something other than whine about how repressed you are. Have a smoke with whoever the fuck makes such cig banning decisions, maybe the owner of your favorite pub, and tell him/her that you and your friends will shank the shit out of him/her if this smoking ban goes through. Then the owner of the pub (and the owners of other pubs) will do all the leafletting and petitioning for referendum for you.

HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED CAN'T YOU SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM!
I have all due respect for your opinion as an intelligent, articulate human being. But this is the most short sighted and stupid idea I've ever had an intelligent, articulate human being put forward. Did you just wake up? I mean all the way through it screams stupid. I'm speechless.

Say we do this with the pub owner, he's obviously a small business owner since you know, you can talk to him. He'll certainly appreciate it when we, his loyal clientele, tell him we're gonna boycott his bar because of a law he doesn't support and never asked for, unless he starts working with his competitors to help ignore the maintenance of his small business (which does take time, more than just working at the bar) to get together, and do a lot of work which they will be ultimately ignored for. That or he'll just spit in our drinks, for being completley fucking braindead stupid consumers who think that boycotting something is a means to getting him to act. I mean, wow.

JoY
01-31-2007, 10:05 AM
that's kind of the problem. smokers are in no way repressed. walking in a bar with a burning cigarette between your fingers is like having your handbag around your arm. cigarettes are just as available as alcohol; from a certain age, in bars, supermarkets & cigarshops. it's as socially accepted as alcohol & by certain people/groups it's seen as cool, just like alcohol. you offer another person a light, like you could be offering him/her a drink to break the ice. it's completely integrated into our culture.

now, you can try to reverse this, because you personally are bothered by the smell of cigarettes & the thought of inhaling second hand smoke & you happen to form a group with twenty more people. but you're talking to people that live in a culture, in which it'd be pretty much completely unlogical to ban smoking/smokers, especially because it'd even mean an economical disaster to most. everyone's trying to make a living here; the tobacco industry, the government, bar owners... we live in a world in which cash rolling in is the first condition to do anything at all. in Dutch we have an expression; "the sun gets/comes up for free/nothing", meaning that on this planet nothing else comes into action, unless it's in it's/his/her/their financial advantage. especially the people who use this expression don't.

if you want to do something about the problem you have with smokers in your direct surrounding, you'll have to induce a massive change;
you will have to find a way to ban a phenomenon, a habit, out of your surrounding, that;
* millions of people have,
* that's socially accepted,
* that's got the reputation of being "cool" (generally/among certain crowds),
* that concerns a product that's not just addictive, but available everywhere,
* that's integrated into our culture
* & that pays the mortgage of another million people.

so yes, as the rest of the population of this wonderful planet, you're being a selfish individual, who is whining about your own personal problem, making it everybody else's.
that put aside; first you have you to find a significant amount of people, who have the same problem/agree with you. you gather all of them to form a group & make it loud. this is pretty much accomplished (predictable, no?), except I don't find this group to be of a size, that should make a significant difference. now this group needs a significant amount of people that have actual influence, that will not only care about your shortness of breath & burning eyes, but that understands the complaint & objection, possibly even shares the pain, to support the idea of making this enormous change. to them, those with influence, it should either way be something that could be in their advantage;
* they try to promote health,
* they will look good for it,
* despite the fact the third house in Italy was bought from tax money from cigarettes,
* & it'll shut up a consistent, loud group of people.

meaning that every standpoint on the matter there will ever be, will always be a selfish standpoint. so sure, if random people call me selfish for smoking in a bar in their presence, they may go right ahead. they're just as fucking selfish for wanting smokers to instantly quit, or leave the bar immediately. it's not my fault this whole society is glad about every cigarette I light, except if I was standing next to them individually in a bar.

here in the Netherlands we now also have smoke-free areas, smoke-free public buildings, et cetera et cetera. it's quite the trend around the world these days, so props to those in this topic that helped establishing that. but as everyone said; a rope to seperate two sections, doesn't exactly stop smoke from crossing the border, & bars are still areas, where thick smoke floats through the air in curly patterns. also; a smoke-free area on a platform in a trainstation, that's in open air?? right, nice work letting it seem like you're making an effort, boys.

this work will always stay unfinished as long as cigarettes are on the market & as long as economy matters, because cigarettes & smokers are profitable. everything that's been done now to create more smoke-free environments, is done to still stand in a positive daylight. not for that loud group of people that experience shortness of breath & burning eyes, except if that falls under shutting them the hell up.

Zeall
01-31-2007, 10:11 AM
if this law does pass, i can see alcohol being banned several years, then unhealthy foods, then emission producing equipment and so on

it doesn't bother me if it passes or not, like i said, if a smoker is nearby, i move

JoY
01-31-2007, 10:40 AM
..yeah. there's one difference though; people see smoking as something particularly selfish, because every lit cigarette sends out second hand smoke, that's after other people's, non-smokers, lives. see my point? that's why complaing about the smell of a cigarette is somehow justified, while complaing about the sight of watching a morbidly overweight whale munching away twelve burgers in no way is.

Little_Miss_1565
01-31-2007, 03:36 PM
I have all due respect for your opinion as an intelligent, articulate human being. But this is the most short sighted and stupid idea I've ever had an intelligent, articulate human being put forward. Did you just wake up? I mean all the way through it screams stupid. I'm speechless.

Say we do this with the pub owner, he's obviously a small business owner since you know, you can talk to him. He'll certainly appreciate it when we, his loyal clientele, tell him we're gonna boycott his bar because of a law he doesn't support and never asked for, unless he starts working with his competitors to help ignore the maintenance of his small business (which does take time, more than just working at the bar) to get together, and do a lot of work which they will be ultimately ignored for. That or he'll just spit in our drinks, for being completley fucking braindead stupid consumers who think that boycotting something is a means to getting him to act. I mean, wow.

Ah yes, it's much less stupid to cry on the internet about how put-upon you are. Either do something or don't complain when people on the other side of the issue do something.

JoY
01-31-2007, 04:20 PM
strangely I always had the feeling it was the other way around. I'd say smokers are pretty used to the idea that smoking is unhealthy, seeing it's on every pack they buy. that should give them a faint idea that the concept of smoking isn't too popular among people, that do their bests to stay as healthy as possible.

I think it's funny though, the other day someone eating a big mac asked me to smoke elsewhere, because I was tarring up his lungs. oh I'm sorry, that I'm "disrespecting" the health you obviously respect at the fullest. I'm not saying that gives me the right to disrespect it too, but you've got to admit it's ironic.

but my most important point; if smokers whine about smoking bans.. they can't possibly be the first ones to whine, can they? if your mother nagged & whined about your slutty wardrobe (very hypothetically, because you seem to have excellent taste & if you did wear slutty clothes, probably no one would mind) & put out all your clothes with the garbage.. you'd "whine" in reaction too, right? & still there'd be nothing you could do about it, since it's already been done.

Little_Miss_1565
01-31-2007, 07:53 PM
Now that I'm not at work, I read Per's reply more thoroughly. I'm sorry that my recommendation that Justin threaten to shank a pub owner didn't come across as less than deadly serious. Really, I don't know why I bother to say anything about doing anything, because no matter what options are out there, down to shanking, someone will come back with a reason not to do anything but complain about it.

JoY
02-01-2007, 02:50 AM
so so sorry, that in a discussion related to smoking, you expected that everyone, who smokes & doesn't agree with a smoking ban, would either instantly turn into Captain Smoking Planet, actively fighting for smokers' rights, or shut the hell up.

if this category is excluded in a discussion like this one on a freakin' message board, because they're too opinionated & subjective to be human & oh, they're weak for being the consumers of a world wide distributed product, then what the hell do you still expect? holy hell, if I would ever think I was repressed, because I fall under the category of smokers, it'd be for this kind of backwards cycle of reasoning, that always "logically" ends with us having to stop "complaining". what do you expect someone who smokes to say about the subject anyway? "oh, I think it's great! I meet fellow future cancerpatients now all the time! we discuss cigarettebrands, suing the tobacco company & the prices of graves on sale."

in this society, the concept of smoking bans seriously makes me feel like we willingly have fucking tuberculosis & are put in quarantine, before we infect the entire planet to cause major epidemics. & everyone knows TBC patients aren't picked on, they're put away to protect the rest of the population. seriously, I don't feel repressed. I feel put away to protect the rest of the population, because we're some sort of hazard, when in the mean time the economy would for a large part fall apart if you were ever to erase the entire problem. I feel like the world is trying to wash their hands from tobacco & rinsed away half of their braincells in that process.

if every discussion would end with "u = all talk, stop whining & change it if you don't agree with it", that'd just make another million jobs go up in smoke (ha-ha) & it'd make literally EVERY discussion useless & vapid.

Sin Studly
02-01-2007, 09:07 AM
Ah yes, it's much less stupid to cry on the internet about how put-upon you are. Either do something or don't complain when people on the other side of the issue do something.

Taking into account all the whining you've done over things like free contraceptives, abortion rights, doctors recommending women take folate, etc. etc. ; you have no moral highground on this.

Sin Studly
02-01-2007, 09:54 AM
.... France is only just banning smoking in schools?? Jesus Christ, did you have some enormous backlash against anti-smoking laws because it reminded you of the dark days under Hitler or something?

T-6005
02-01-2007, 10:04 AM
Schools were supposed to have smoking areas.

I never saw anything wrong with it.

JoY
02-01-2007, 10:12 AM
I can't think of a single highschool here in the Netherlands, where there is an area INSIDE the building, where you may smoke. not now, not in the past.. what, 11 years. but of course I didn't know everything back then, when I was still a little worm. maybe there were smoking areas in highschools when I was 12, or something. like I ever would've been aware of its existence back then.

we have a smoking area in our university, though. hah, the medical faculty. there used to be one near the entrance, but they removed that one. now we still have one on the fifth floor, but it's seriously nasty & way too far away.

Edit: now I think of it, it's very well possible the teachers' room was a place where you could smoke. except, well, you'd have to have been a teacher.

Little_Miss_1565
02-01-2007, 10:42 AM
so so sorry, that in a discussion related to smoking, you expected that everyone, who smokes & doesn't agree with a smoking ban, would either instantly turn into Captain Smoking Planet, actively fighting for smokers' rights, or shut the hell up.

if every discussion would end with "u = all talk, stop whining & change it if you don't agree with it", that'd just make another million jobs go up in smoke (ha-ha) & it'd make literally EVERY discussion useless & vapid.

Um, every discussion like this IS useless and vapid. As though just bitching and no action makes anything more valid? Local government steps over the line all the time. New York City just banned all trans fats from fried foods, for fuck's sake. This is retarded and most everyone agrees, but not a big enough deal for someone to get up in arms. Clearly, with all the people who feel repressed and put upon by a "minority," it is a reason to get up in arms.


Taking into account all the whining you've done over things like free contraceptives, abortion rights, doctors recommending women take folate, etc. etc. ; you have no moral highground on this.

It's not a matter of moral high ground, and I AM doing something about all these things instead of just crying on the internet. I get mad at YOU because you love being an asshole so, so much, but I know it makes you happy so go right on ahead.

Sin Studly
02-01-2007, 04:21 PM
It's not a matter of moral high ground, and I AM doing something about all these things instead of just crying on the internet.

Please tell me, what exactly are you doing about those things?