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TBD
02-19-2007, 12:55 PM
Should these people be in the same group as gays, lesbians, and bisexuals? While I am not very educated on the subject of these people, my school has a GLBT club, and my first reaction was that these should be separate it and associating Transexuals with the first three groups would hurt their cause. However, I know nothing and want to hear opinions.

Grabbal
02-19-2007, 01:01 PM
I'll say a group on their own cause they're special..

HeadAroundU
02-19-2007, 01:19 PM
Well, if they are as special as Grabbal then you gotta keep 'em separated.

T-6005
02-19-2007, 01:33 PM
Transsexuals being in the same group isn't based on any similarity with the other two groups. It's based on the fact that they have a way of expressing their sexuality that's often looked down upon and separated from the norm. That's what they share in common with homosexuals and why they're often associated with the same groups. It's not a matter of it just being about gays - it's about alternate sexualities.

I want to know exactly how you'd treat the case of transsexuals differently. I mean, are you disgusted by transsexuals? In that case, I can understand your reluctance to lump them in with another group that you're "okay" with, but you should probably have the decency to come out and say so.

XYlophonetreeZ
02-19-2007, 02:03 PM
Sex changes kinda creep me out. It is definitely different from being gay, lesbian, or bi in one respect- no one can argue that it's natural. I believe that homosexuality and bisexuality are indeed natural tendencies in some people, but sexual difference as a result of an operation by choice is most definitely not.

Is it "wrong"? No. It's personally weird to me, but I can't justify calling it wrong because I don't really see it hurting anyone, and I don't usually have a moral bug up my ass about things that are personal choices.

You're really asking the wrong people whether "T" should be grouped with "LGB." How is it any of my fucking business? I say that as long as there's an organization called "LGBT" then there are evidently a helluvalot of people who are A-OK with it, and if any homo- or bisexual people disagree, then they can start their own organization and call it "LGB." If any trannies want an identity separate from the others, then they can just join some organization for trannies only.

HeadAroundU
02-19-2007, 02:28 PM
Now I know whatta organization T-6005 is.

JohnnyNemesis
02-19-2007, 03:02 PM
*Thibault's post*

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.


I believe that homosexuality and bisexuality are indeed natural tendencies in some people, but sexual difference as a result of an operation by choice is most definitely not.

True indeed, but often times these people are responding to types of social conditioning that they personally don't feel is in line with any of their "natural tendencies", so there's more to the issue. It's a tricky one for sure.

TBD
02-19-2007, 03:18 PM
I'm thinking of it in terms as a future political movement. In politics, you have to be realistic and idealism tends to fail, and gains are small when achieved. The world is much more accepting of homosexual tendencies than they are of transexuality. It'll be a cold day in hell when I see a comedy on NBC about a transsexual. I'm thinking the gay rights movement might hinder future progress with association with transexuality, as conservatives who might be on the fence on this issue could be swayed by the association.

T-6005
02-19-2007, 03:34 PM
I'm thinking of it in terms as a future political movement. In politics, you have to be realistic and idealism tends to fail, and gains are small when achieved. The world is much more accepting of homosexual tendencies than they are of transexuality. It'll be a cold day in hell when I see a comedy on NBC about a transsexual. I'm thinking the gay rights movement might hinder future progress with association with transexuality, as conservatives who might be on the fence on this issue could be swayed by the association.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuals#Depictions_of_transsexualism_in_the_m edia

Booyah?

wheelchairman
02-19-2007, 04:02 PM
I've heard different opinions from the gay community on this. (is it any coincidence that all my homosexual friends are Austrian?) Anyways personally I think the big difference is that hermaphrodites (those who choose to keep both genitalia) choose their fate. And I feel absolutely no pity for them. They should know what they are getting into. Those who complete the operation, should just shut their mouths. If you want to be a girl, then be a girl, don't let others tell you what you are.


Then again this topic begs the question, will your next thread into the politics section be about abortions?

TBD
02-19-2007, 04:05 PM
Then again this topic begs the question, will your next thread into the politics section be about abortions?

Death Penalty, then the war on Iraq, maybe a little bit of World Trade Center conspiracy, then abortions is coming.

killer_queen
02-20-2007, 04:08 AM
The world is much more accepting of homosexual tendencies than they are of transexuality. It'll be a cold day in hell when I see a comedy on NBC about a transsexual.
This is weird. The situation here is the exact opposite of it. We used to have not one but a couple of tv shows about transsexuals.

Anyway, I don't think they should be grouped with gays and bisexuals. I don't think they should be grouped at all. It's not like being gay or something. They work (well, I couldn't find a better word) for it. Sex exchanging isn't that easy like admitting you're gay. People pay lots of money, get emotionally stressed and waste years. For what? Being in a small group called transsexuals? It's just really mean to group them with gays or group them on their own.

Iamstupid
02-20-2007, 05:30 AM
IMO, Transexuals, gays and bisexuals can be put in the same group, but they aren't the same, there are some differences between them. It's only that I think. But I imagine very well Noodles starting a new thread "if you're transexual post here !" :D

Little_Miss_1565
02-20-2007, 05:56 AM
Transsexuals are not the only T in LGBT. Transgendered people are as well.

To be transgendered, or trans, you don't have to go through with the surgery. It's more of a genderfuck thing, really. My only problem with the trans community is that while they're rejecting one set of socialized gender behaviors, they're embracing others. Rugby shirts and cargo shorts? Ladies, that is in fact men's clothing. But then I know a lot of trans-guys who aren't going to go through with the surgery but take T and all nine yards because you can't build a pole out of a hole, so I guess it goes both ways. You can reject all gender pronouns and be a girl who looks and acts like a boy, or you can be a boy in a girl's body not getting the genital surgery because it just doesn't work out.

Transsexuals are people born in the wrong body, and have it corrected with surgery. It still fall under the "queer" label, and it's the gay community that is equipped to support them. As though the straight world does anything but hassle trannies.

Sin Studly
02-20-2007, 08:29 AM
Trannies are fucked up in the head. Nobody can deny this. Whether or not homosexuals are fucked up in the head is debatable, and subject to public opinion more than anything else. But Transexuals being mentally fucked up is scientific fact. To group them with the gay community is a throwback to the times when homosexuality was considered a disease in the western world.

Because Trannies are mental and hormonal fuck-ups. Fags just like the cock.

NOAMR
02-20-2007, 12:42 PM
It's a scientific fact that some people have a woman's body but are men, or the other way around(something like they got XY so are male, but the chromosom is double, so they got a woman's body. forgot how it was exactly). It doesn't happen alot, and they don't become transsexuals always, and most of the transsexuals or probably not in this case, but how can you say they are mentally fucked up? I don't really believe in the strict border between man and woman, I don't believe there are so much differences.

Sin Studly
02-20-2007, 01:16 PM
It's a scientific fact that some people have a woman's body but are men, or the other way aroundsomething like they got XY so are male, but the chromosom is double, so they got a woman's body. forgot how it was exactly). It doesn't happen alot, and they don't become transsexuals always, and most of the transsexuals or probably not in this case, but how can you say they are mentally fucked up?

Gee, I guess it's a mystery.


I don't really believe in the strict border between man and woman, I don't believe there are so much differences.

That's because you've met Belgian men.

F@ BANKZ
02-20-2007, 02:24 PM
I guess you have a point, however the purpose of the group is probably to help against sexual discrimination which i imagine is a very similar thing to predjudice against transexuals, even thought transexuality isn't a sexual preference...I dunno i guess they probably should have a seperate group to the first three.

Sin Studly
02-20-2007, 02:30 PM
There are already plenty of groups dedicated to stopping discrimination against the mental fuck-ups who ruin society.

Little_Miss_1565
02-20-2007, 08:27 PM
Stick to ranting against nonwhites.

Paint_It_Black
02-20-2007, 11:45 PM
You can label them together, in the sense that a male who takes steps to appear female was probably a homosexual male first. Or you can label them all together as alternative sexuality or alternative lifestyles or whatever the fuck you want to call it. However, the best solution is probably just to think of them as the gender they are attempting to be. In other words, once a dude chops it off and puts on a dress you should kick him out of the poker game and make him bake something. Everyone will be happiest that way.

Little_Miss_1565
02-21-2007, 05:55 AM
In other words, once a dude chops it off and puts on a dress you should kick him out of the poker game and make him bake something. Everyone will be happiest that way.

Um, wow, how progressive.

Sin Studly
02-21-2007, 12:10 PM
Stick to ranting against nonwhites.

Stick to demanding free contraceptives.

Paint_It_Black
02-21-2007, 06:13 PM
Um, wow, how progressive.

Call it whatever, as long as you don't call it "wrong".

Great Mike
02-24-2007, 02:39 PM
While gays don't really bother me (as long as they don't make a show in front of me), transsexuals disturb me deeply.

Sin Studly
02-24-2007, 02:46 PM
Nothing is disturbing about gay guys.

However, guys who shave their legs, wear tight pink shorts with combat boots, and talk like a cross between Paris Hilton and Big Gay Al disturb me, because they actually exist. Homophobia doesn't even factor into this, I don't care what kind of sex they prefer, whether they're gay or straight they still deserve to be made fun of and ridiculed for willingly acting so fucking stupid.

The same goes for guys who pay people to cut up their genitals to make them look like a vagina. It's fucking ridiculous, and they should be made fun of.

Lightning Rod
02-28-2007, 02:30 AM
Big Gay Al
It's funny...:D :D
You know you're right a lot.....

JoY
02-28-2007, 09:43 AM
in DSM IV, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition (the manual for psychiatry & depending how you view psychiatric patients, you could say the biological structure of their brain is different, or that they are fucked in the head), views transsexuality these days as a gender identity disorder, or to use their words; gender dysphoria. percieved sexual identity doesn't match with the biological sexual identity. they classified it this way to prevent any confusion with homo- & heterosexuality.

I guess that answers your question.

as for the reason why, that takes some biological information;
when in critical phases of the pregnancy the brain of the fetus is exposed to testosterone, the child developes a male mental identity. this is somehow connected to the BST-c (a small area nearby the hypothalamus in the brain), that is smaller in females & larger in males. originally every fetus is genderless from the start, until the Y chromosome makes the critical difference in the development, starts inducing the production of Anti Mullerian Hormone/AMH (the tracts/ducts of Muller eventually form the female inner genitals) & testosterone. without this critical step, induced by the Y chromosome, it'd develop into a female, meaning the basis of mankind is in fact.. female.

suppose in the fetus there's a dysfunction in the production of testosterone (& this could be caused anywhere along the road of the production), then there's the possibility the child developes a gender dysphoria, because it causes the fetal brain to develop differently (see part about BST-c).

<<in reply to what NOAMR said; when the fetus is insensitive to testosterone, or when it has one or two extra X's (XXY/XXXY = Klinefelter syndrom) it's likely to develop incomplete male inner & outer genitals (possibly female outer genitals) & possibly also develops gender dysphoria to become a "transsexual". overproduction of testosterone in female fetuses leads to the opposite.

these men & women aren't seen as transsexuals, however. most men with Klinefelter, or testosterone insensitivity are born with incomplete male outer genitals & possibly even have female outer genitals. seeing we welcome babies with a penis & balls (even if they have ovaria & a uterus) as boys in this world & babies with labia & a vagina (even if they have a balls for ovaria & a prostate) as girls, they don't have much of a problem with their sexual identity. the first may have the genotype XX, but is defined by our retarded way of reasoning as a boy, as the second with genotype XY is defined as a girl. it eventually works out for the best. except for being infertile & a bunch of other problems, including having different genitals on the inside than on the outside, they in society have much less of a problem.

so it does have to do with what NOAMR mentioned & I hope it gives a bit more clarity.>>

factually seeing, people who switched gender aren't transsexuals, because they're not "trans" anything. they're not in the phase of transgression, but are past that point already. when they are in the process of considering a sex change & put their percieved sexual identity to the real life test (dressing & acting like someone of the opposite sex), before an optional sex change, they're transsexuals. some don't actually go the entire mile & eventually never undergo a sex change.

sorry for the elaborate post.

JoY
02-28-2007, 10:04 AM
oh right, seeing transsexuality is a gender identity issue & homosexuality a sexuality issue.. I wouldn't group them together. I mean, whatever floats their boats & whatever they like to group with is fine with me. if they like to hang out in gay bars & such (they definitely like to hang out at gay parties, so it seems), I don't see the problem.

it's kind of.. well, they aren't really looking for a homosexual partner, which in the case of homosexuals is kinda.. obligatory. they mostly look for someone heterosexual, that will fall in love with the person's identity & gender they percieve & experience, which is just a different one than the biological one in the case of transsexuals. if they -feel- female, they will logically look for a man. this can be seen as either heterosexual, or homosexual. or neither heterosexual, or homosexual. hah, homosexual transsexuals, THAT is confusing. biologically.. they're attracted to the opposite sex. but mentally...

homosexuals often have a different brainstructure than heterosexuals, but the fact XY transsexuals have a small, female BST-c & XX transsexuals have a large, male BST-c is something you don't find in homosexuals. so different problem, in theory & in practice.

Sin Studly
02-28-2007, 10:45 AM
[/quote=Joy]Big long posts largely filled with unwanted and uneccessary information, and a few on-topic key points that basically amount to what Sin Studly said, except he said it more succinctly, and wasn't afraid to hide behind medical jargon when calling trannies mental fuck-ups.[/quote]

Summarised your posts to save space. Anyways, what's your opinion on the links between Gender Identity Disorder and Body Integrity Disorder, and is it any more "progressive" to call a Chopper a 'mental fuck-up' than it is to call a Tranny one? Because I don't know anyone who'd call a Chopper mentally sound.

Actually, 1565 might be better suited to answer the second question.

Paint_It_Black
03-01-2007, 12:21 AM
Summarised your posts to save space.

We'd like to offer you the position permanently.

JoY
03-01-2007, 03:06 AM
actually, it should be obvious that I don't view a physical problem as being fucked in the head. you do. all I said, is that in medicine they aren't grouped together & that for basically the same reasons I wouldn't group them together. the end of my post more or less had to do with what 1565 also said, the middle of my post was strictly a reply to what NOAMR said. the second post was a more personal answer to the question.

but yeah, what I find interesting, you don't necessarily have to find interesting. what I find to play a large role in this discussion, you can diminish as much as you want. I dislike the way the subject was discussed, as if we weren't talking about our own kind, like the lot of us are different species. it's a very simple cause that causes a relatively very complicated problem. I know I spread unwanted medical facts in discussions you like to keep simple & on a non-medical level, but if it's a social problem with a medical cause you're discussing, it's pretty ridiculous of all people NOAMR tried to bring up the medical background & only 1565 mentioned the actual definition.

by the way, I only used the medical jargon when referring to the DSM IV. only because their way of defining the problem of transsexuality is a whole lot more on the money than your "fucked in the head".

there doesn't exist a 'cure' for transsexuals; you can try to treat them with hormones, seeing this originally caused the problem, but it won't undo the structural cause in the brain & it won't make their percieved identity change. their biological & behavioral pattern doesn't match the 'norm' we once set for mankind. well, tough luck. the more we know about the human brain, the less people actually meet that norm & the more people will be labeled as 'sick', become patients instead of people & will experience an 'illness' that wasn't even there, before the 'disease' was defined & diagnosed. all we can do is treat them psychologically & psychiatrically to deal with the fact people view them as "fucked in the head"/sick & treat society in their rigid beliefs on what is normal & what is not & their habbit of excluding the 'abnormal' from it.

Edit: & I bet you're just bitter, because I said the basis of mankind is female. ;p

Sin Studly
03-01-2007, 08:24 AM
If you think that was me being bitter, you're overly sensitive.

So anyways, since Gender Identity Disorder is probably most closely related to Body Integrity Disorder, how can you claim it's a physical problem? That's like saying Choppers have a physical problem called "Being born with both arms".

They're both mental fuck-ups, end of story.

NOAMR
03-01-2007, 09:22 AM
Our brain is just a part of our body, so the devision is unnatural. From what I've understood from JoY, their brain is developed genderly otherwise then their body(because of a lack of hormones on the time their brain developed, or something). So you could call it a problem between the body and brain. If you call it a physical problem, you say their body is 'wrong' according to their mind, if you say it's mentally, you say their mind is 'wrong' according to their body.

Since epilepsie is caused in the brain, do you call people who have epilepsie 'mental fuck-ups'?

Sin Studly
03-01-2007, 10:55 AM
Yes, mental fuck-ups suits them well. But in everyday speech I tend to call them "spazz-dancing meat puppets" or "gibbering spasmodics".

JoY
03-02-2007, 01:11 AM
Justin, you know I was only kidding.
& since you always seem bored with my "medical talk" (& you're not really the only one & you have to believe me when I say it doesn't offend me in whatever way), I don't understand why you ask me this question.

Body Integrity Identity Disorder is a severe/extreme form of Body Dysmorphic Disorder. the age at which people with BIID discover their wish to be an amputee, can be as young as five years old, which suggests it has little to nothing to do with any traumas, or a messed up childhood. the cause has to be searched for within the brain, but you'd have to perform section on the body of a diseased patient with BIID, but you'll probably understand the pathologic anatomy department isn't exactly flooded with these.
<<something you won't want to read; right now there's a theory that BIID is caused by a dysfunction in the proprioception of the limbs. proprioception is percieved through nerves from the cortex of the brain going to the relating limbs & back & gives you information about the exact position of the limb (important for orientation), thus gives you control over the limb & makes you percieve that it is indeed your limb, your bodypart. when there's a dysfunction, you'll be able to control the limb only by looking at it & consciously moving it through motor nerves, that are seperate from the nerves that take care of the proprioception. very tiring, as you can imagine. also it won't feel like the limb is yours, as though it is something that doesn't belong to you & the body pretty much automatically physically & mentally rejects "corpora aliena" - strange bodies/objects that don't belong in/to the body/body owner. (some would say the body owner is the body & the body is the body owner)>>

so yes, there's a dysfunctional switch in the brain of "choppers", as there is an abnormality in the brain of transsexuals. but dyslexia can also be traced in the brain, as can ADHD. the severity of the symptoms & the consequences just can't be in any way compared. & like NOAMR said, also epilepsy. the list just goes on & on when it comes to what can be substantially wrong in the brain, causing very real & physical problems. not to mention a lot more will be added to the list, the more we know about the brain.

the brain is just an organ as any other, but because it's the control room, the symptoms of a dysfunction in the brain can cause problems anywhere in the rest of the body. since more & more disorders & diseases can be traced to the brain (we still only know around 10 percent of what's exactly going on in the fucking thing), science is starting to adopt the idea of the brain as an organ being a part of the body, meaning a dualistic viewpoint is fading pretty quickly. "mentally" is becoming "physically" & the way you use the terms "mental fuck-ups" & "fucked in the head" nowadays could just aswell be applied to someone who has lungcancer, by saying he/she is "fucked in the lungs".

Edit: "sickness" goes with defining & diagnosing the "disease", like I said earlier. then usually treatment of either the symptoms, or the disease itself follows. "sickness" in the eyes of society may be something totally different in the eyes of medicine. a sickness disables you from living a normal, every day life for whatever period of time. if it's society that causes the problem & prohibits people with certain characteristics that don't meet the norm from leading a normal, every day life, you may wonder which one of the two is sick.


Our brain is just a part of our body, so the devision is unnatural. From what I've understood from JoY, their brain is developed genderly otherwise then their body(because of a lack of hormones on the time their brain developed, or something). So you could call it a problem between the body and brain. If you call it a physical problem, you say their body is 'wrong' according to their mind, if you say it's mentally, you say their mind is 'wrong' according to their body.

Since epilepsie is caused in the brain, do you call people who have epilepsie 'mental fuck-ups'?

a lack of hormones, or - in XX transsexuals - too much hormones. yup. if you call it a physical problem, you acknowledge the fact it has a physical cause in the brain & in that case you could just as much see it as the body not matching with the brain, as the brain not matching with the body. but yes, what you said is pretty much correct.

I'm glad someone was interested in the silly medical information I spread. ;p

Sin Studly
03-02-2007, 02:42 AM
For fuck's sake, I'm not reading that. Can't your summarise it into a sentence or two?

JoY
03-02-2007, 02:55 AM
Justin, you know I was only kidding.

so yes, there's a dysfunctional switch in the brain of "choppers", as there is an abnormality in the brain of transsexuals.

brain is organ, blah blah, "mentally" is becoming "physically" & the way you use the terms "mental fuck-ups" & "fucked in the head" nowadays could just aswell be applied to someone who has lungcancer, by saying he/she is "fucked in the lungs".

Edit: a sickness disables you from living a normal, every day life for whatever period of time. if it's society that causes the problem & prohibits people with certain characteristics that don't meet the norm from leading a normal, every day life, you may wonder which one of the two is sick.


for your service. the rest added to my arguments, or well, formed my arguments. I find that important, but I see why it'd be uninteresting to you, so here you go. I just raped my own post for you, I hope you know that. ;p

Sin Studly
03-02-2007, 03:12 AM
So why is people getting on my jock for calling them mental fuck-ups? I should be calling them "physical fuck-ups of the brain" instead?

JoY
03-02-2007, 03:46 AM
because the term "mental" relates to the mind, which has one extremely vague definition & is something people are supposed to be able to influence, rather than to the brain as an organ.

when someone's "mental", he/she is considered nuts, because his/her behavior, or reasoning doesn't match the norm. but like I've tried to explain, there's a lot more to it & it has a biological background.

being "mental" is considered a sickness of the mind & the mind is considered something you can more or less control, like I said. it suggests psychological/psychiatrical therapy could help solving the problem. it doesn't in any way take biological structural differences in consideration, which does make a huge difference in the case of for instance transsexuals. their desire to be of the other sex isn't something they imagine, or adopted during life. they can't help it, their parents can't help it & their surrounding can't help it. it's just the way it is.

Edit: besides, it's not they who "fucked up" anything & you can debate on whether or not they're fucked up. it's considered an abnormality in the development of the brain, so yes, oops, but that happens rather fucking often, just not as often as that it'd result in transsexuality or BIID. *shrugs* homosexuals have got a different brainstructure than heterosexuals. are they "mental fuck-ups" aswell? because then about every other person is, seeing there are quite a few variations in brainstructure among the world's population.

Sin Studly
03-02-2007, 05:38 AM
Call me a conservative right-wing bastard, but I think if you have an overwhelming desire to cut off your own arms, you're fucked-up in the fucking head. But that's just me.

NOAMR
03-02-2007, 07:03 AM
Someone who fits completely the norm, is fucked-up in the head certainly.

To Sin: conservative right-wing bastard! (sry, you asked for it). Do you think people who got, for some reason(a genetical defect or something), a sixth finger on his hand, and want to ampute it, fucked-up in the head? Could be caused by a brain disfuction(in the period it controlled the development of your body). Unless you're an alien, you don't need 6 fingers. Unless you're a man(and transsexuals aren't in their mind), you don't need balls.

But if you define mental fuck-ups as people who got a disfuction/defect in their mind, you can be right. It's all about how you define disfuction. Do you consider it as being different from the norm, you're right, but probably no-one fits the norm. If you consider it as being 'lower' then the norm, I don't agree, and don't think you can put a value of better or worse on someone('s mind). Or you could consider it as having problems, difficulties in daily life.

But then again, everyone has something like that. If you get angry fast, without wanting it, or are extremely nervous, it can cause problems for you and your surrounding. Are you also a mental fuck-up then?

RickyCrack
03-02-2007, 12:03 PM
Environment and surroundings have nothing to do with personal identity. To understand the effects of transgender people you need to under several fundaments of psychology and freudism (rather as understood by Erik Erickson).

First the fundament of normal is expressed as having a healthy brain, personality, and behavior. These three aspects of identity represent a human being's thoughts, mind, and possibly soul if you want to argue Descartes. Equally if one of these aspects is altered you have a completely different human being. Seeing as a change in the physical brain as expressed by Phineas Gage can cause a change in behavior.

B.F. Skinner's "Blank Slate Theory" suggests that all humans are the same at birth mentally. His theory states that if raised correctly he could turn a newborn child into a criminal, national leader, or a killing machine. This theory, however, cannot be possible and modern psycholoy suggests that nature holds more power our behavior that even the most powerful of conditioning cannot undue. This is due to the discovery of genetics and mental illness. The APA (American Psychological Association) keeps a list of recognized mental illnesses one of which is Transgenderism. This could be used to argue that a gay gene exists, but I refuse, because simply I just don't care.

One major part of transgender to understand is that it defines a person who is one gender but their identity represents that of the other gender. According to the APA this is not their fault as it's genetic or nature, etc etc. Now taking in the steps for personal development as defined by Erickson the role of personal identity is developed based upons an individuals experiences as they clash between two sets of morals, ethics, or ideas. (ex: Trust vs. Mistrust, Initiative vs. Guilt, Identity vs. Role Confusion, Intimacy vs. Isolation.) The theory is that based upon ones own existing personality they battle these two polar opposites and must go through the experience through life. The idea behind Erickson is that one must go through these stages with a balanced sense between both abstract ideas. The reason most gays come out of the closet around adulthood is because this is the age for Identity vs. Role Confusion and imagine someone who is transgender who is struggling to come to terms with their own identity during this age. As in they are a dude but they feel like they're a girl. So almost assuredly they don't have a chance to develope through this stage with a balanced sense between the two ideas.

Behavior, however, is usually modified by surroundings, this is usually characterised by animal instinct for survival. Case in point, pschologically transgendered people are complete mind fucks, however, this dosn't mean they can't live a normal life, it just means that according to a bunch of dead people, they are mentally off balance.