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greencows12
12-29-2004, 04:19 PM
swearing in public schools and wearing hats inside a school building, you get in trouble for it. It's fucking stupid. I think swearing and hats should be allowed. Fishnets aren't allowed either, but I wear them, and noone says anything, because I know they can't. I just like wearing fishnets. These stupid rules are retated. You can't wear spaghetti straps in school either, what the fuck? these are some dumb rules. You get suspended if they found out you're lying in my school. You can't smoke in the parking lot anymore, although, they used to have a smoke room in the building. You have to pay for parking at school, even though it's government funded. If you skip too many times, they bring you to court.....this is in high school! They force us to attend school assemblies involving sports events noone cares about and stupid school dances. They force us to go. They have cops and security guards with golf carts surrounding the way out of the campus, oh yeah, we're one of the top schools in the state. Fucking stupid. some of the teachers make fun of the kids, and some of the teachers are perverts who constantly blabber on and on, but don't teach as much as they should.- the american high school i'm in. it fucking sucks.

Noodles is gay
12-29-2004, 04:28 PM
Dude try English schools - mine anyway.

We can't swear, including bugger me, damn, hell and goddammit + all the usual ones.
We have a uniform, which for me in 6th form is a suit everyday. A suit to school
We can't smoke anywhere
True we do not have to pay for parking but if you don't get there early it's all gone anyway.
Our head got arrested and sent to prision for child porn offences!
3 Assembilies a week - all compulsary
oh and our parents get fined if we don't turn up in England.

Lovely. :D

wheelchairman
12-29-2004, 04:30 PM
American schools no swearing. In Danish schools everyone swears when they feel like it. Once a group from my class were visiting a business school in Northern Ireland and giving a presentation on Denmark, we did some swearing, and they giggled as though it was forbidden (we had no idea it was taboo).

GreenTerror
12-29-2004, 04:35 PM
Wow, that sucks. Last year, I had my hair green, and my nose pierced. No one had a problem with it, and there was no rule against it. So, I come back this year, and, on the first day of school, I have to sit in the office for 1 and a half hours, and missed one of my classes. Just so they could bitch at me and explain to me why I can't have green hair and a little silver ball on my nose.They said because it "puts attention to you hair and piercing and takes away from the learning." Like anyone really pays attention to anything the teacher says anyway. I came home and my mom was as pissed off as I was. They let me have my hair green for the rest of the week, but the next Monday, I had to come back with a natural hair color and a clear nose stud. So now my hair is black and I hate it. I only have until May at that school, then I'm dying my hair back to green. But I think you have it worse than I do. One of my teachers told us that it's impolite for boys to wera their caps inside, but ok for girls to. I didn't really understand that one too much. I guess they just complete forbid it so they won't seem like sexists. Why are there all these stupid pointless rules at school?

bd007h
12-29-2004, 04:39 PM
Some teachers in my school don't even care, but some do. Some teachers swear themselves.

Noodles is gay
12-29-2004, 04:43 PM
I don't think i've every heard a teacher swear!

They just say 'sugar' or summat.

greencows12
12-29-2004, 04:46 PM
I saw some kids in the office, and they got suspended for wearing white face paint. The teacher said it was a threat. I didn't see how it was though.

Betty
12-29-2004, 11:34 PM
The most french teacher at our school was fairly reknown for saying "ah ben, fuck you" but with a super thick accent.

Meh, a lot of rules have reasons...

Mostly I don't like a lot of dresscodes, but having regulations against a certain amount of sluttiness is understandable.

neocon58
12-29-2004, 11:37 PM
we swear like drunken sailors at our school. and so do the teachers. if you do something wrong, they call you a fuckin wanker.

LostMind
12-29-2004, 11:41 PM
I don't think i've every heard a teacher swear!

They just say 'sugar' or summat.


i have it was in math class last year and the teacher used to say bitch...and other words she would yell out.

plastic_letterz
12-29-2004, 11:43 PM
at my school we all swear, hell my english teacher gaves us the finger. There's nothing against fishnets or green hair or peircings. Although they dont allow spagetti straps, clothing that can represent "gangs", du-rags, hats, and really short skirts. Thats it I think. what sucks about my school is that they take seriosuly those forms you have to hand in like lunch forms. We get our lockers taken away. We still don't have our lockers. Its been like two months. This time they took it away because of graffiti. It doesnt really affect me though cause i never take my books to class. Also our school building sucks. It was once a beer factory...literally.

Radi0_havana52
12-29-2004, 11:48 PM
at my school we all swear, hell my english teacher gaves us the finger. There's nothing against fishnets or green hair or peircings. Although they dont allow spagetti straps, clothing that can represent "gangs", du-rags, hats, and really short skirts. Thats it I think. what sucks about my school is that they take seriosuly those forms you have to hand in like lunch forms. We get our lockers taken away. We still don't have our lockers. Its been like two months. This time they took it away because of graffiti. It doesnt really affect me though cause i never take my books to class. Also our school building sucks. It was once a beer factory...literally.
thats pretty fucken funny....beer factory...lol

plastic_letterz
12-30-2004, 11:15 AM
thats pretty fucken funny....beer factory...lol

well its the truth. they (the city) promised us a new building but I doubt it cause they've said that for a while now.

Noodles is gay
12-30-2004, 11:25 AM
Now I feel extremely posh; your school used to be a beer factory, mine a castle!

I forgot one rule; we're only allowed 1 piercing in each ear that's it!

ThrashedThrasher
12-30-2004, 08:32 PM
If you think your school is bad, come to mine. Our dress code changed enormously since I was in 7th grade. We cannot do/wear the following:

No:
Hats (or head coverings of any kind)

Steel Toed Boots *fuck 'em , I wear 'em anyways*

Rubber Snap Bracelets *I wore 'em, they took 'em never gave 'em back*
Spikes/Studs *I wear the studs anyways*

Cradle of Filth clothing *FUCKING A! I wore my Nymphetamine shirt and the staff bugged out! I never got it back either which is fucking bull cause I got that when I went to see 'em in concert*

Religious clothing (expressing your beliefs religious wise)

Political clothing *Fuck that, I can express my views on Bush whether they like it or not*

Excessively baggy clothing

Tank tops of any kind

Excessive jewelry (may that be necklaces,rings,piercings) *Who cares, I get bitched at everytime I come to school with a new piercing*

Unnatural colored hair (not necessarily restricted but it's highly discouraged)

Chains/Collars/Chokers *I wear them anyways, if they have a problem they can talk to my mother who will simply pull me out of the school if they give her any shit*

MakeUp (No dark colored makeup you can get sent home for it)

Shorts/Skirts (They must go past your fingertips when standing in a normal manner)

You can get pulled to court if you do not attend school 5 days in a row without a note of some sort. It's happened to me before cause the main office is full of a bunch of retards who tossed my note saying I was going to be in Utah for 2 weeks away.

We don't have lockers, in Middle School (which is where I'm at right now) or High School

I'm no longer allowed to attend assemblies (thank god) due to my "innapropriate behaviour" (I disconnected all the speakers and hooked 'em up to the main CD player and put in some MSI)

I only have half a trimester of PE every trimester because I usually end up pissing the coaches off :D

Our annual 8th grade dance no longer exists because they seem to think the violence happening outside in the skatepark is caused by us, it's not it's the highschoolers (the dumbfucks put a skatepark 20 steps away from the school building)

If you get caught with a cell phone,cd player, or cds they will confiscate them and will not give them back (they say they will but that never happens, my mom took the school to court because they wouldn't give me my cell phone back)

As for swearing, I do it in class all the time, my teachers do too haha, so what we say they could give a fuck less about. Although, if you get caught by other teachers/staff you're fucked.

I think that's everything , basically the same rules apply up at the highschool.

plastic_letterz
12-30-2004, 08:40 PM
If you think your school is bad, come to mine. Our dress code changed enormously since I was in 7th grade. We cannot do/wear the following:

No:
Hats (or head coverings of any kind)

Steel Toed Boots *fuck 'em , I wear 'em anyways*

Rubber Snap Bracelets *I wore 'em, they took 'em never gave 'em back*
Spikes/Studs *I wear the studs anyways*

Cradle of Filth clothing *FUCKING A! I wore my Nymphetamine shirt and the staff bugged out! I never got it back either which is fucking bull cause I got that when I went to see 'em in concert*

Religious clothing (expressing your beliefs religious wise)

Political clothing *Fuck that, I can express my views on Bush whether they like it or not*

Excessively baggy clothing

Tank tops of any kind

Excessive jewelry (may that be necklaces,rings,piercings) *Who cares, I get bitched at everytime I come to school with a new piercing*

Unnatural colored hair (not necessarily restricted but it's highly discouraged)

Chains/Collars/Chokers *I wear them anyways, if they have a problem they can talk to my mother who will simply pull me out of the school if they give her any shit*

MakeUp (No dark colored makeup you can get sent home for it)

Shorts/Skirts (They must go past your fingertips when standing in a normal manner)

You can get pulled to court if you do not attend school 5 days in a row without a note of some sort. It's happened to me before cause the main office is full of a bunch of retards who tossed my note saying I was going to be in Utah for 2 weeks away.

We don't have lockers, in Middle School (which is where I'm at right now) or High School

I'm no longer allowed to attend assemblies (thank god) due to my "innapropriate behaviour" (I disconnected all the speakers and hooked 'em up to the main CD player and put in some MSI)

I only have half a trimester of PE every trimester because I usually end up pissing the coaches off :D

Our annual 8th grade dance no longer exists because they seem to think the violence happening outside in the skatepark is caused by us, it's not it's the highschoolers (the dumbfucks put a skatepark 20 steps away from the school building)

If you get caught with a cell phone,cd player, or cds they will confiscate them and will not give them back (they say they will but that never happens, my mom took the school to court because they wouldn't give me my cell phone back)

As for swearing, I do it in class all the time, my teachers do too haha, so what we say they could give a fuck less about. Although, if you get caught by other teachers/staff you're fucked.

I think that's everything , basically the same rules apply up at the highschool.

damn thats alot of stuff. so they singled cradle of filth clothing? thats weird.
and thay dont give back your stuff. Thats just wrong.

nieh
12-30-2004, 08:58 PM
ok....and what's wrong with your school? EVERY school is like that. In fact, it's FEDERAL LAW that if you miss too much school, you and your parents have to go to court. Swearing is always generally frowned upon in school, as are hats. You're not allowed to wear hats in a lot of places.
You get suspended if they find out you're lying...about what?

There's nothing you said about your school that doesn't happen in every school and as Betty said, there's a bit of a reason for a lot of them, plus the whole anti-sluttiness guidelines are always good, or would you rather your teachers have to force themselves not to stare at your chest?

wheelchairman
12-30-2004, 09:03 PM
shockingly, I tend to agree with Betty and Nieh. Something I say so rarely.

Tired_Of_You
12-30-2004, 09:26 PM
ok....and what's wrong with your school? EVERY school is like that. In fact, it's FEDERAL LAW that if you miss too much school, you and your parents have to go to court. Swearing is always generally frowned upon in school, as are hats. You're not allowed to wear hats in a lot of places.
You get suspended if they find out you're lying...about what?

There's nothing you said about your school that doesn't happen in every school and as Betty said, there's a bit of a reason for a lot of them, plus the whole anti-sluttiness guidelines are always good, or would you rather your teachers have to force themselves not to stare at your chest?


Not every shcool. Well, not my school, they let us wear almost everything we want (I know someone who wears transparent t-shirts and they say nothing, but if they see 1 mm of your skin on your belly they tell you to wear something else). I don't know for the thing if you miss too much school, but I agree with you.

greencows12
12-30-2004, 09:41 PM
You get suspended if they find out you're lying...about what? about anything. I wrote some stuff on my notebook, and they asked me to take it off, because it had the f word, so I took it off, and under that i had another one, so they made me take it off. This happened about 4 more time, untill the teacher asked, "Do you have anymore?" I said, "No." He said, "Let me search your backpack.". All I had to do, was stand up, point at him, and say "Invasion of privacy!" and he didn't open his mouth again for the rest of the day.

nieh
12-30-2004, 09:51 PM
what does that have to do with lying? I'm not saying that doesn't sound stupid, but if you want to swear or write bad words, don't do it in school unless you know the teacher will let you get away with it.

greencows12
12-30-2004, 10:02 PM
here's the problem with that, I wrote on my own notebook. What that has to do with lying is, he didn't believe me when I said I didn't have anymore, so that's accusing my of lying, when he said he wanted to search my backpack.

Rag Doll
12-30-2004, 10:25 PM
Agreed with Nieh...even though I had a few problems in my high school too.

HornyPope
12-31-2004, 12:21 AM
My history teacher would often say "merde" (shit) and "arretez avec vos conneries" (stop with your bullshit) to the students. Oh how I loved this guy.

HornyPope
12-31-2004, 12:22 AM
Oh btw, on the topic of teachers and schools - you guys seen this site - www.ratemyteacher.com ? Has a very large listing I find of most North american schools.

Noodles is gay
12-31-2004, 10:14 AM
Oh how I would long for rules similar to the ThrashedThrasher's.

Take all those rules and multiply each by 5 in terms of severity and there you have my school rules.

But we got a school uniform - black/navy blue suit for school every day!!! :mad:

Tired_Of_You
12-31-2004, 10:23 AM
Oh btw, on the topic of teachers and schools - you guys seen this site - www.ratemyteacher.com ? Has a very large listing I find of most North american schools.


Haha, my school is there. 117 teachers and there are a lot who aren't there.. hehe.

Rag Doll
12-31-2004, 11:09 AM
there's also ratemyprofessor.com ...though, i doubt most of you are in college.

but it's ever-so-useful when registering for classes.

greencows12
12-31-2004, 01:26 PM
my teachers are on ratemyteacher.com too. unsurprisingly, they have low scores, except the principal, which is nice to most kids.

the original pyro
01-02-2005, 12:38 AM
were allowed to swear if you dont interupt class with it. smoking is prohibited and everyone finds a place in the bathroom, field or a car anyway. Parking is free if you have a pass, and a pass is a once a year 5 dollar charge. Big deal. But, its 55 years old, infested with roaches and we have a lockdown every other month because somebody brought a knife or is running from the police and "possibly armed with a dangerous weapon". Our prinicipal retired after getting kicked out of AA and realizing she was too slow to be a principle.

bd007h
01-02-2005, 01:29 AM
I don't think i've every heard a teacher swear!

They just say 'sugar' or summat.

my english teacer joking called a kid a "shit-for-brains", and the kid didn't even care.

SicN Twisted
01-02-2005, 02:13 AM
Sadly, most of the things mentioned are common to every school. I don't think this is a good thing though, if anything it shows the disgusting authoritarian nature of schools.

There are some exceptionally liberal schools then don't dually operate as prison camps, but most high schools, including the four that I attended, resemble the one being discussed.

SicN Twisted
01-02-2005, 02:16 AM
Mostly I don't like a lot of dresscodes, but having regulations against a certain amount of sluttiness is understandable.

I don't understand this. The way people dress is their own form of expression, what right does a school have to regulate it? I just think if you're going to dress a certain way, expect your teacher to stare at you.

nieh
01-02-2005, 09:26 AM
I don't understand this. The way people dress is their own form of expression, what right does a school have to regulate it? I just think if you're going to dress a certain way, expect your teacher to stare at you.

if I were a teacher, I wouldn't want to catch myself staring at someone half my age cause it would make me feel stupid and would damage my credibility. If the teacher's don't want to end up staring, they should be able to enforce a dress code. There's nothing stopping the kids from dressing like that when they get home or go out with friends, but they shouldn't do it at school because there's stuff that has to be done and it's a distraction (I sound like such a grown-up). But yeah, I'm 20 and I feel weird when there's 12-16 year olds at the mall with their pseudo-boobs hanging out, I can only imagine how weird I'll feel when I'm like 30-40 and still seeing it. People tend to not realize that when you dress like that to get certain people to look at you, it's not just working on those certain people, it's working on everyone.

Tijs
01-02-2005, 09:53 AM
Damn, the first year on my last school you were allowed to smoke everywhere, litterally (damn I hated then, glad they changed that the next year.)
Swearing, everyone did, very loudly too.
Drugs, most did it. Was allowed in school on fridays.
Skipping classes; you could do that, the only thing you had to do was go to atleast one class a subject once every 3 weeks. (Well, if you skipped too many classes they would talk with you about it, and depending on the cause you'd get kicked off school or not).
And the computers were free to use, in anyway you wanted. Resulting in loads of people downloading all sorts of odd stuff.

Well that's where I got my diploma.

Inshane
01-02-2005, 10:33 AM
We can't swear. and I never do. mostly because Im always sitting by myself and have noone to talk to/ swear at. but. Since my french teacher started screaming : I hate you, I fucking hate you! obviously directed at me. I thought it was the right time to let my real inner feelings get a hold on my choice of words.

Strider
01-02-2005, 10:55 AM
You ought to try the Federal University of Pernambuco...

>As it is an univ., you can't smoke INSIDE THE CLASSROOM...but it is totally allowed in the corridors.
>You can dress up just as you like, rather than wearing silly uniforms (Myself, one day I got late and didn't wasted time on dressing up...I went to school wearing sandals and green shorts and a yellow T-shirt with the Brazilian flag on.)
>And no one's gonna criticize you for that.
>Also, neither court nor the police get involved if you're skipping too much. The problem is entirely yours.
>Plus, after some weeks of classes, the place always stops due to some congress, forum or some protest against the workers' low salaries. So it's like, class-off-class-off..You don't even get the time to get used to the fact that you're an universitaire (don't even know if the word exists...lol).
>And it's unnecessary to state that your vocabulary is also your entire choice (SWEAR ALL DAY LONG! But not during a class. It sounds a little rude).

I LOVE MY UNIVERSITY!! :p

greencows12
01-02-2005, 12:07 PM
were allowed to swear if you dont interupt class with it. smoking is prohibited and everyone finds a place in the bathroom, field or a car anyway. Parking is free if you have a pass, and a pass is a once a year 5 dollar charge. Big deal. But, its 55 years old, infested with roaches and we have a lockdown every other month because somebody brought a knife or is running from the police and "possibly armed with a dangerous weapon". Our prinicipal retired after getting kicked out of AA and realizing she was too slow to be a principle.
we have to pay 50 dollars a semester for parking.

SicN Twisted
01-02-2005, 01:53 PM
if I were a teacher, I wouldn't want to catch myself staring at someone half my age cause it would make me feel stupid and would damage my credibility. If the teacher's don't want to end up staring, they should be able to enforce a dress code. There's nothing stopping the kids from dressing like that when they get home or go out with friends, but they shouldn't do it at school because there's stuff that has to be done and it's a distraction (I sound like such a grown-up). But yeah, I'm 20 and I feel weird when there's 12-16 year olds at the mall with their pseudo-boobs hanging out, I can only imagine how weird I'll feel when I'm like 30-40 and still seeing it. People tend to not realize that when you dress like that to get certain people to look at you, it's not just working on those certain people, it's working on everyone.

What's wrong with that/ If you get past our society's social taboo on sex, all you're describing is the admiration of someone's figure. Just like hanging artwork on the walls. Alot of students don't enjoy having their chests stared at, but it shouldn't be the school's right to tell them how to dress.

Betty
01-02-2005, 04:24 PM
I think the most important rule should be that you should have your own freedom while not impinging on the freedom of others.

And here there is a fine line. What is offensive? Who's freedom is more important? Etc.

If people DON'T WANT to be staring at breasts or up skirts all day, is it fair that students are allowed to wear these things? Is the freedom to dress slutty more important than the freedom to not be offended by slutty dress? It can be a distration to students and teachers who want to learn and teach. Very tricky question. Maybe people DON'T WANT to see students with coloured hair because it is a "distraction", but I find that to be a ridiculous restriction. Which rules are valid?

You know what Sic? I'm with you. In a school full of Michelle's and Schuyler's... I'm sure we could get away with people dressing half naked to feel sexy and people wearing 3 inch spikes and whatever obscene offensive shirt you would want. However, in a world with very slutty girls, pedophile (or simply naturally horny - is it so wrong for a 30 year old man to be with a mature 16 year old female? Another societal opinion...) teachers, "punks" wanting to start fights, etc, etc... sometimes our dream world does not work out so well. Hence rules. Not being allowed to chew gum? Dumbest rule ever. Not being allowed to wear hats? Possible outdated etiquette (or is it? does etiquette keep people in check and just generally more polite? or is it unecessary?)

Also, it depends on the nature of the school. We were allowed to swear, like, in moderation. We were allowed to wear mostly anything on dressdown days (I'm also 100% against uniforms, but went to a uniformed school), etc. And our school had no problems. Small, mostly good kids.

Either way, while the rules are temporary solutions to problems, they do not address the deeper cause of the problems, and this is what really should be done. But this requires money, ressources, time, etc, etc.

SicN Twisted
01-02-2005, 04:53 PM
I think these "problems" aren't really problems. If you think about it, how would seeing a girl in a slip be any more distracting then seeing an artistically designed teeshirt, weird symbols on a tie, or any kind of colorful expression? It appears to be more of a problem because of the social taboo that's put on sex, but when you look at it, it's just another way to dressing. I think, in my more utopian moods, that it would be ideal to fashion a school where people can walk around naked when the weather's nice. Also, as you said, where do we draw the line? Belly shirts? Hair dye? Hats? What kinds of standards are set, and who the fuck has the authority to set the standards? If anyone, it should be the students over the administration, since the school is build to educate them. But I must say that begs a depper question, which I'll probably get into at somepoint in the future of our bulletin board mingling - how schools should not be authoritarian and that students should make the rules themselves through a democratic system.

samr
01-02-2005, 05:27 PM
If you skip too many times, they bring you to court.....this is in high school!

Then don't go. I'm sure your mom and dad would rather save a couple hundred, than wasting it all on some slacker.

Betty
01-02-2005, 09:02 PM
I think these "problems" aren't really problems. If you think about it, how would seeing a girl in a slip be any more distracting then seeing an artistically designed teeshirt, weird symbols on a tie, or any kind of colorful expression? It appears to be more of a problem because of the social taboo that's put on sex, but when you look at it, it's just another way to dressing.

Well, when I say "problem"... I MEAN the social taboo on sex, or violent tendencies/gangs, etc.

However, these "problems" DO exist, so you can't just come out one day and allow your students to go to school naked. Because there would be too many consequences that would arise from this. In order to be able to allow your students to go to school naked, you'd have to first address all the other issues as to why it's not allowed in the first place. Therefore, you can say that it should be allowed, but in doing so you have to realize that this is unrealistic or that there would have to be drastic changes in order for it to occur.

Regarding nudity in schools... I read a book called the Harrad Experiment which I enjoyed a lot... that had that theme to it. It's fairly old, so possibly outdated? But still, in that situation they took the best and the brightest students in order to implement this pilot project... it couldn't just work anywhere.

I don't know... for me I think it's important that I differentiate my dream world from the real world. And I'm not sure if you do that. I could give you the utopian point of view, of course. And I would think it's a great idea. But it's not happening, and if it does... like I said... drastic changes... are they possible? Who knows.

SicN Twisted
01-02-2005, 10:12 PM
They are possible. Look how forward we've come since the 50s? Society's gradually getting more and more accepting, and if I'm gonna see naked chics walking around to speed up the process, why complain?

Betty
01-02-2005, 10:22 PM
I really don't want to let you have the last word on this one, although I feel it's getting near that point.

Anyway, I agree that it's possible... gradually...

But I still maintain that you can't just expect to allow naked girls to come to school right away in our current situation at most schools. And you have to first allow for that change. I don't know if you agree with that.

SicN Twisted
01-03-2005, 12:01 AM
Never designate the last word. Let the conversation either die or transform naturally.

That being said, what I'm trying to say is maybe the change can be forced by mass exposure. Gradual change seems to me like an illusion. Communist leaders managed to instate and uphold the most tyranical, murderous governments in history while apparently striving for a free, classless utopia by saying "the change will come gradually." I think it's more practical to make radical change happen. To expose people to it whether they like it or not, make them see your way of thinking.

Betty
01-03-2005, 12:09 AM
Yeah, I normally try to not mention that... but in this case I felt like I was trying to beat a dead horse, but didn't want to just let it die... so felt I needed an explanation.

Anyway, I'm glad you clarified that...

I think that could be possible...

However, changing some rules without clear intentions...? Would that still apply? I'd imagine if you wanted to do something like that, you should go all out and change all the rules that were applicable, etc, etc.

SicN Twisted
01-03-2005, 12:12 AM
Within the realm of reason. I'd like to go to my local public school and somehow abolish administration, abolish detention, make class no longer compulsory, abolish tests, abolish dress codes, instate a voting system where the vote of any student counts as much as any teacher or the principle, etc. etc.

Oh wait, it's already been done. The Summerhill school in the UK opened in the 60s and created a movement of "free schools" which I have alot of respect for. It just shows how drastic change specifically geared towards an ideology is possible and practical.

Betty
01-03-2005, 12:28 AM
Hmm... very sketchy about that whole idea...

And I'd imagine you're talking about a highschool level type education... so accessible to all...

Well, class should not be compulsory... that's a good thing. You can decide for yourself... doesn't hurt anyone else.

Detention? Well, for things like being late or dressing inappropriately sure. But what about things like attacking a student/teacher? Or being very disruptive in class (where others are listening)? Should there be no punishment? Should there be a different punishment? Are you assuming these things magically won't happen?

Administration? I don't understand who will run the school? Like, coordinate things, you know? Possibly less administration... but none?

Voting system? Sure why not.

Abolish tests? Well, that would make sense in an education setting where everyone is simply just learning for themselves. But when it comes time to assessing individual's capacities to continue in education/careers... how is this done? Is it done outside of school? Does it somehow not matter at all? Is it assessed in a different way that they usual testing system?

I tried to look at this in a more anarchy-oriented (if that makes sense... hopefully you know what I mean) environment and not the one we are in currently... otherwise there would be more criticism.

SicN Twisted
01-03-2005, 01:42 AM
Detention? Well, for things like being late or dressing inappropriately sure. But what about things like attacking a student/teacher? Or being very disruptive in class (where others are listening)? Should there be no punishment? Should there be a different punishment? Are you assuming these things magically won't happen?

The overwhelming reason that these things happen is the fact that kids are repressed as they're growing up - parents try to channel them into thinking and acting a certain way and they're not allowed to live out their natural instincts. If someone grows up free, then it's improbable that they'll cause trouble. In a regressive school that treats students like criminals (which applies to most schools these days) students are gonna be alienated and they'll be much more likely to disrupt. In a school that respects students individuality and gives them freedom of choice, disruption will be seldom. If it does happen, I say let it happen. Without disciplinary action, the culprit will probably get over it. If not, let the students vote on a punishment, they're the ones being disrupted, right?


Administration? I don't understand who will run the school? Like, coordinate things, you know? Possibly less administration... but none?

The students should run the school. Adults will be involved of course, but they'll make desisions democratically along with the students.


Abolish tests? Well, that would make sense in an education setting where everyone is simply just learning for themselves. But when it comes time to assessing individual's capacities to continue in education/careers... how is this done? Is it done outside of school? Does it somehow not matter at all? Is it assessed in a different way that they usual testing system?

Test taking is a skill that doesn't reflect a student's intelligence or capibility. All tests do is put pressure on people and came them not care about learning. If someone's in school in the first place, shouldn't it be because they want to learn a certain skill or class that they think will benefit their proffesion? If students cared, test taking really wouldn't be neccesary.

Betty
01-04-2005, 12:21 AM
I love how I can return to this topic a day later as opposed to five minutes later, and have it just how it left off, nicely undisrupted.

Anyway... I seriously feel like you may be living in a total dreamworld and just making up things so that your theory works.

If people were raised in your utopian society, I don't think everybody would be perfect... MAYBE they would be... but it's very hard to believe that they would. If human nature was that way, why did anarchism not evolve naturally?

I think that if education was totally voluntary then there would definitely be way less disruptions/violence/etc. But would your society have totally voluntary education? Could somebody just choose to never go to school? Or would it be your dreamworld where EVERYBODY wanted to go to school?

AND, even with less mishaps occuring, I'm sure some would still occur... and sure, a vote is a good idea... but then there would still most likely be some form of punishment. It's only fair for the whole.

I believe that it is very hard to run things efficiently without a leader or some leader-type figures. Even when there isn't supposed to be a leader, there is always an unofficial leader. There is always somebody who speaks out more, organizes things more, etc. EVEN if there is consensus and vote on EVERYTHING, somebody or a few people are more behind it than the rest. So, I think there would be a modified form of administration regardless.

For the test part, you totally did not read what I wrote, or did not reply to it.

I said "Well, that would make sense in an education setting where everyone is simply just learning for themselves." Which is what you described. Thanks for describing exactly what I meant again. However, you never answered the second part of my question regarding how and if individuals would need to be actually evaluated for their capacities to function in certain levels in society. And I would like to hear your response to this.

Also, I was thinking... regardless of how motivated a student you are, humans are naturally lazy. I am a very unlazy person, yet can still be quite lazy when it comes to school. Does not a certain degree of pressure help motivate you to learn? I feel like in university I am under so much pressure that I only truely learn MAYBE 50%, if that, of what I am expected to learn. Because of the bombardment of information. However, had I not been under this pressure I may have learned 20% at my own leisurely pace. This is just a theory obviously.

Like, take doctors. They need to know a LOT. And they are quite important to any society I would believe. Could enough people be that motivated to memorize that much stuff without any pressure? I seriously seriously doubt that. So, either I have not enough confidence it people's motivation, you have way too much, or your society would be... well... not good in certain ways...

SicN Twisted
01-04-2005, 01:51 AM
Anyway... I seriously feel like you may be living in a total dreamworld and just making up things so that your theory works.

That's what medieval nobels said to Enlightenment philosphers. Colombus was told he was living in a dreamworld when he claimed the earth was round.


If people were raised in your utopian society, I don't think everybody would be perfect... MAYBE they would be... but it's very hard to believe that they would. If human nature was that way, why did anarchism not evolve naturally?

It took two thousand years of civilization for democracy to evolve. I'm sure kinds would dispute the idea of the Republic because it hadn't evolved naturally.


I think that if education was totally voluntary then there would definitely be way less disruptions/violence/etc. But would your society have totally voluntary education? Could somebody just choose to never go to school? Or would it be your dreamworld where EVERYBODY wanted to go to school?

Those who chose not to go to school would be well within their rights to pursue unskilled labor as a living. Those who wanted to an education would also have access to one.


AND, even with less mishaps occuring, I'm sure some would still occur... and sure, a vote is a good idea... but then there would still most likely be some form of punishment. It's only fair for the whole.

Of course. Who's better to decide the punishment then the students themselves? They're the ones being most disrupted, shouldn't they decide how to punish the disrupter, or should it be some unqualified authority figure who's completely detached from the atmosphere of the school, like how it is now?


I believe that it is very hard to run things efficiently without a leader or some leader-type figures. Even when there isn't supposed to be a leader, there is always an unofficial leader. There is always somebody who speaks out more, organizes things more, etc. EVEN if there is consensus and vote on EVERYTHING, somebody or a few people are more behind it than the rest. So, I think there would be a modified form of administration regardless.

The leaders would be respected and followed based on their merits. They'd naturally stand out because of their convictions and abilities, so people would listen to them. This is different from a system where some people openly rule over others, and make desisions on how others live their lives.


For the test part, you totally did not read what I wrote, or did not reply to it.

I said "Well, that would make sense in an education setting where everyone is simply just learning for themselves." Which is what you described. Thanks for describing exactly what I meant again. However, you never answered the second part of my question regarding how and if individuals would need to be actually evaluated for their capacities to function in certain levels in society. And I would like to hear your response to this.

Tests don't evaluate individuals for their capacities to function in the certain levels of society, they evaluate individuals for their capacities to take the tests. The only way to tell if someone can function in certain levels of society is to test them in action, see how productive they are and see what they bring to the table. This can be evaluated the same way it's always been - higher someone in the mailroom, if they show compitence, promote them to the next level, and on and on. Multiple choice questions and short answer responces only demonstrate how well a student can study for the test.


Also, I was thinking... regardless of how motivated a student you are, humans are naturally lazy. I am a very unlazy person, yet can still be quite lazy when it comes to school. Does not a certain degree of pressure help motivate you to learn? I feel like in university I am under so much pressure that I only truely learn MAYBE 50%, if that, of what I am expected to learn. Because of the bombardment of information. However, had I not been under this pressure I may have learned 20% at my own leisurely pace. This is just a theory obviously.

I think it works the opposite way - the pressure destroys a student's motivation and derails whatever personal interest they way have. Forcing students to read books turns reading into a task, not a form of leasure. Ideally, students would have complete choice in what they study, and without any required courses, students would only study what they truly desire to learn, so the motivation would be self fulfilling. The pressure of exams and term paper only creates an atmosphere of stress and hostility which makes people less interested in the material.


Like, take doctors. They need to know a LOT. And they are quite important to any society I would believe. Could enough people be that motivated to memorize that much stuff without any pressure? I seriously seriously doubt that. So, either I have not enough confidence it people's motivation, you have way too much, or your society would be... well... not good in certain ways...

I'm only talking about high school. Of course if someon'es attempting to earn a degree which would entitle them the responsibility for a human life, like an MD, they'd have to prove their capibilites, that's that's a way of demonstration competence in performing an act, so tests are neccesarily. If you're learning English or history, I really see tests as pointless because these are subjects you'd learn about because you want to learn them, so your motivation would be self styled.

Betty
01-04-2005, 11:12 AM
Oh, the quote game...

I guess I'm satisfied with most of your answers, although I do believe that in a society functioning this way, people would be much less productive on a whole, and would therefore have much less material gains. Whether this is a good or a bad thing obviously remains debatable.


I think it works the opposite way - the pressure destroys a student's motivation and derails whatever personal interest they way have. Forcing students to read books turns reading into a task, not a form of leasure. Ideally, students would have complete choice in what they study, and without any required courses, students would only study what they truly desire to learn, so the motivation would be self fulfilling. The pressure of exams and term paper only creates an atmosphere of stress and hostility which makes people less interested in the material.



I'm only talking about high school. Of course if someon'es attempting to earn a degree which would entitle them the responsibility for a human life, like an MD, they'd have to prove their capibilites, that's that's a way of demonstration competence in performing an act, so tests are neccesarily. If you're learning English or history, I really see tests as pointless because these are subjects you'd learn about because you want to learn them, so your motivation would be self styled.

At this point I'd like to point out that I am pursuing a degree in chemistry, and I strongly agree with the above regarding English and History. While I don't dislike these subjects, I always just figured I could learn them well enough on my own time, without the need of a school system. Also, the politics involved in those courses with grades and political beliefs, etc. are terrible.

However, a hell of a lot of students do pursue math/science/statistics/computing/etc degrees and I think in these cases pressure is beneficial (well, perhaps more beneficial than no pressure) to their learning.

But I some problems with this. Elementary and highschool should prepare these students for post-secondary education... and in your leisurely system how could they be properly prepared. Also, I must admit unfortunately that many students have no idea what they want to do at a young age and also have that desire to just go out and play with their friends... so they would lack that motivation to take learning into their own hands, I believe. But at a young age is when people are able to learn the most efficiently, so it seems to be screwing a lot of people over. You don't want to start having to learn basic arithmetic at 20 years old, at least I don't think so.

Hmm... also again... I'm going to assume your post secondary is free for the taking... but this seems so flawed, especially without tests. So anybody and everybody can be admitted at their desire... but to have GOOD programs in some of these subjects require lots of ressources. It is a total waste of ressources, I believe, to not be teaching students that are adequately prepared to enter these programs. Feel free to point out if my assumptions here are wrong.

I guess we have really different perspectives on this cause you're thinking all artsy and I'm thinking all scientific. But for me, the school system worked out quite well, and I don't think I'd have near the knowledge I had today without it. I have many beefs with it, but the changes necessary would not be as drastic as yours. Actually, the only way I could've had more would probably have been in an even more capitalistic system (ie special ressources for the best and brightest... not the other way around)

Like, I agree that the education system is far from perfect, but I wouldn't go about fixing it the same way. Or at least in all of the same ways.

SicN Twisted
01-04-2005, 01:39 PM
I think I haven't communicated my point well enough, I do think that students should have to prove their abilities in subjects in some way. I definately believe in papers, verbal responces, and presentations, things that you can do or prepare at home and present in class. I'm talking about tests specifically because of their nature. Of course degrees cannot be given to anyone who pays tuition, I think this would be even more capitalistic and class based then what we have now.

It kind of reminds me of those international universities in Switzerland, that will admit anyone who pays but have obscenely high tuitions. They seem really prestigious, but they are are schools for rich stupid kids.

Betty
01-04-2005, 01:43 PM
A lot of upper year courses in university (I'm thinking of my boyfriend's English courses) don't give tests or exams... it depends on the professor.

But yeah, tests make more sense for science/math students... although still not a perfect form of evaluation.

Petter
01-04-2005, 02:13 PM
We can swear in our classroom to each other without the teachers even caring .. we go around "fuck" "shit, that was funny" "damn, you fuckin' suck at this" and so on .. we can were hates/bennis/caps whatever to .. my school rox

greencows12
01-04-2005, 05:43 PM
We can swear in our classroom to each other without the teachers even caring .. we go around "fuck" "shit, that was funny" "damn, you fuckin' suck at this" and so on .. we can were hates/bennis/caps whatever to .. my school roxand now we get back to the betty...sicntwisted...betty, sicntwisted regularly scheduled program.

Betty
01-04-2005, 08:57 PM
Made me smile... but very poor punctuation.

SicN Twisted
01-04-2005, 10:12 PM
most people don't care about typing correctly. I do for some reason.

Betty
01-04-2005, 10:16 PM
Hahahahaha!

SicN Twisted
01-04-2005, 10:24 PM
you mean to say I don't type correctly?

Betty
01-04-2005, 10:28 PM
Where is your capital "Y" Mister?

SicN Twisted
01-04-2005, 10:31 PM
i don't like capitalizing, it looks intimidating