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Paint_It_Black
04-03-2007, 08:11 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070403/ap_on_re_us/war_objector

SAN JOSE, Calif. - A Marine lance corporal who said he had an aversion to killing and participating in war must be released from the military as a conscientious objector, a federal judge ruled.

The Marine Corps Reserves must discharge Robert Zabala, 23, by mid-April, under the ruling.

Zabala said he was troubled during boot camp in 2003 when a fellow recruit committed suicide and a superior used profanities to belittle the recruit. Zabala said he was "abhorred by the blood lust (the superior) seemed to possess," according to a 2006 court petition for conscientious-objector status.

Another boot camp instructor showed recruits a "motivational clip" showing Iraqi corpses, explosions, gun fights and rockets set to a heavy metal song that included the lyrics, "Let the bodies hit the floor," the petition said. Zabala said he cried, while other recruits nodded their heads in time with the beat.

"The sanctity of life that formed the moral center of petitioner's life was being challenged," his attorney, Stephen Collier, wrote in a court filing.

U.S. District Judge James Ware, who served 13 years in the Army Reserves, said he was convinced of Zabala's sincerity about his struggles to "reconcile the demands of duty with the demands of conscience."

Zabala, a student at the University of California, Santa Cruz, who followed some Buddhist-related traditions, was previously denied conscientious-objector status after applying in 2004, court records show.



A Marine lance corporal who said he had an aversion to killing and participating in war

He joined the Marines, for fuck sake.


Zabala said he cried, while other recruits nodded their heads in time with the beat.

He joined the Marines, for fuck sake.


Zabala, a student at the University of California, Santa Cruz, who followed some Buddhist-related traditions

He joined the Marines, for fuck sake.

Discuss.

nieh
04-03-2007, 08:34 AM
They made him listen to Drowning Pool. That's enough to bring most sane people to tears.

Paint_It_Black
04-03-2007, 08:35 AM
Sane people shouldn't join the Marines.

Jebus
04-03-2007, 09:51 AM
Another boot camp instructor showed recruits a "motivational clip" showing Iraqi corpses, explosions, gun fights and rockets set to a heavy metal song that included the lyrics, "Let the bodies hit the floor," the petition said. Zabala said he cried, while other recruits nodded their heads in time with the beat.


The irony is that he was probably showing them Micheal Moore's documentary, Fahrenheit 911. Or am I thinking about some other movie where they played Drowning Pool over some war footage?

wheelchairman
04-03-2007, 10:17 AM
Richard's right. It's pretty dumb to become a soldier if you don't believe in killing ever...

Sin Studly
04-03-2007, 12:54 PM
Who the fuck are you to say he has to approve of killing people just because he's a so-called "soldier"? The army should have taken better care not to hurt the feelings of their people, and definitely shouldn't try to encourage them to be violent.

HeadAroundU
04-03-2007, 02:52 PM
It is a lame situation endeed. Either a guy whose parents are some kind of war freaks who wants him to be a marine or a really really naive guy.

But I agree with Justin. And I think that there is no need for such a practices to make a good soldier.

Venom Symbiote
04-03-2007, 04:28 PM
Yeap. That's pretty much it. "I'll join the marines and hope I never have to shoot anyone". Cocktard.

ninthlayer
04-03-2007, 06:47 PM
They made him listen to Drowning Pool. That's enough to bring most sane people to tears.
Insert joke about Drowning Pool's original vocalist dying.

JohnnyNemesis
04-03-2007, 06:54 PM
*laughs at suggested joke*

JoY
04-04-2007, 03:29 AM
sorry, but is there such thing as a condition for the marines that you can't respect & value human life??

they showed some respectless tapes for "motivation", everyone thought it was cool, well.. I can imagine someone wants to fight for his country, for safety, for freedom, for peace, or whatever your motives are to join the marines, but at the same time doesn't exactly wish to spread death. & doesn't like to think of victims of war as, "yeah cool, so another body hit the floor". there's a possibility people join the army, the marines, or whatever to see blood, pain & death, but I imagine that's not the actual purpose for most people, who join the marines. well, let's just say it's not the actual purpose of the marines.

Paint_It_Black
04-04-2007, 04:25 AM
The Marines want you to be a killing machine. They do what it takes to bring that out of you.

I understand what you're saying. Many "normal" people who join up might have great respect for human life and pray every night for God to end war (and kill whitey of course). But still, they have to understand and accept that they've chosen a job in which they could very likely be involved in war and required to kill. You can't whine about it later, or act like you didn't know what you were signing up for.

Besides, it's not like this dickless idiot signed up for the reserves, or the regular army. He joined the marines. That's career soldier.

JoY
04-04-2007, 08:28 AM
I know what the marines are like, my grandfather's brother was with the marines back in the days. it's superdisciplined, incredibly rough, it's like.. army, armier, armiest. sure, if you sign up for the job & eventually you're going to be forced to shoot a man, don't whine about it.

but having to watch those videos for "motivation".. dude, "let the bodies hit the floor", that's not what you're fighting for. certainly not if you have the right attitude for the marines. if you have the right attitude, you're joining because you believe in something, stand for something & are willing to fight for that something. killing is the mean, the instrument, or tool, whatever. not the goal itself. it'd be even better if you didn't have to use that instrument to reach your goal. but yeah, if you have to, you have to. that's part of the job, sure.

JohnnyNemesis
04-04-2007, 08:34 AM
Every American has the right to abuse the material privileges afforded by the U.S. military and then run off when he or she doesn't feel like participating in the process.


...y'know, it's funny, because I was completely 100% unserious when I typed that, but now that I read it over I realize I actually believe it. Lawl.

Paint_It_Black
04-04-2007, 08:40 AM
but having to watch those videos for "motivation".. dude, "let the bodies hit the floor", that's not what you're fighting for.

Like I said, they're creating killing machines. They can't take the risk that you'll ever hesitate. They can't risk having someone with an attack of conscience at the wrong moment. They need to shape the way you think about combat. These motivational videos may be unpleasant to us, but it sounds to me like they work. After all, while the hippy wept the rest of the class were nodding their heads.

It may not be nice, and you may not approve, but I'm sure you understand it.


Every American has the right to abuse the material privileges afforded by the U.S. military and then run off when he or she doesn't feel like participating in the process.

They have the right to try, anyway.

They also have the right to wear their underpants on their head and say the Offspring are the best band ever. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be mocked if they do it.

JoY
04-04-2007, 09:03 AM
it's not that I don't understand it & that I don't understand the way they can not hesitate for a moment at a critical time. it's not that it seems unpleasant to me (well fine, it does), but it seems immoral to me. because it is immoral. & no, I don't approve. why can't they be motivated with things, images & ideas, that used to motivate them enough to ever join the marines in the first place? they joined, didn't they? there must be some reason, some motivation that drove them to join. so there must be some fire burning, all you need to do is throw some petrol on it.

just.. put a flag up their butt, sing the anthem together a billion times, give them reasons (best would be logical, good reasons, but I understand that's aiming too high & also pretty impossible) to hate the enemy, tell them.. you're fighting for peace & freedom & that it's worth the sacrifice of human lives. even stuffing them with pure utter propaganda, based on fucking lies, is more morally correct.

Edit: what are these guys going to be like, if they leave the marines? will they know the difference between wrong & right? for god's sake, you use that kind of shit on kids to mold them to create killing machines, if you're going to war without a single cause. they use it on kid soldiers to make them able to shoot any person to create fear among the population. marines aren't supposed to shoot any person, but the persons that stand in the way of their goal & who form a danger to them & their cause. like I said, killing should be a tool to accomplish the goal & should never be used in cases it's not necessary.

HeadAroundU
04-04-2007, 09:28 AM
Fuckin' marry me for this post but still both sides are full of shit.

JoY
04-04-2007, 09:29 AM
elaborate & maybe I'll marry you. ;p

Paint_It_Black
04-04-2007, 09:34 AM
because it is immoral. & no, I don't approve. why can't they be motivated with things, images & ideas, that used to motivate them enough to ever join the marines in the first place? they joined, didn't they? there must be some reason, some motivation that drove them to join. so there must be some fire burning, all you need to do is throw some petrol on it.


Morality is subjective, so I won't really get into that.

The things that motivated them to join are not necessarily going to be enough to motivate them to do what is required of them once they join. It's easy to sit in your comfortable home and think "you know what, I'm going to join the military and preserve freedom!" because you don't really know yet what it's going to be like or what you'll have to be capable of. Your training needs to condition you, physically and mentally, to ensure you're up to the job. Fine, you were motivated enough to sign up. That's good. But it doesn't make you ready for battle.



just.. put a flag up their butt, sing the anthem together a billion times, give them reasons (best would be logical, good reasons, but I understand that's aiming too high & also pretty impossible) to hate the enemy, tell them.. you're fighting for peace & freedom & that it's worth the sacrifice of human lives. even stuffing them with pure utter propaganda, based on fucking lies, is more morally correct.

They do all that too. There's no such thing as too much conditioning for a soldier.


marines aren't supposed to shoot any person, but the persons that stand in the way of their goal & who form a danger to them & their cause.

Agreed. But they aren't taught to shoot just anyone. They're taught to shoot, unquestioningly and without hesitation, anyone they're ordered to shoot. That's an immensely important difference. They are not allowed to go on a rampage and shoot anyone they feel like.



what are these guys going to be like, if they leave the marines? will they know the difference between wrong & right?

As much as anyone, I would assume. I haven't looked at any statistics regarding this, but I could speculate. People that have been trained to kill might...*might*...be more prone to aggression than the rest of us. But they're also trained to reign it in unless otherwise ordered. They're trained to respect authority, which in the civilian world would equate to being law abiding. I honestly see no reason to assume they'd create a problem in normal society, but if there's evidence to the contrary I'll happily concede.

I do recall hearing that ex-soldiers are prone to depression and sometimes suicide, but I could be mistaken. If this is true that's terrible for them, but still not a problem for society.

HeadAroundU
04-04-2007, 09:37 AM
I would piss & shit my pants on my way to war but I wouldn't cry if some emo soldier killed himself and I would laugh from those retarded motivational clips.

JoY
04-04-2007, 09:56 AM
*loud sigh* yeah, I know, I know. sometimes it's just paradise in my mind to be naive. if that remotely makes sense. I still think it's immoral (but as you said, that's subjective) & I can still totally understand someone, if he says that's not what he came for to do, when he has to watch some respectless video in which death is practically celebrated. I can understand if someone didn't expect that to be part of the job, having to watch those videos, & that he didn't expect death to be seen as cool. even someone, who initially joined the marines. I don't think you should be prepared for such shit, when you're just following your beliefs, ideas & dreams by joining the marines. BUT I AM NAIVE. I know.



I do recall hearing that ex-soldiers are prone to depression and sometimes suicide, but I could be mistaken. If this is true that's terrible for them, but still not a problem for society.

Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome/Disorder became an official diagnosis after Vietnam. that's a pretty good indication. 30% of the Vietnam veterans eventually developed PTSS/PTSD. it's a hormonal condition, very real, & for medicine this is a problem, so it also is for society (the way I see it). but that's not relevant. =)

Paint_It_Black
04-04-2007, 10:57 AM
Isn't PTSD just a fancy term for shellshock? Vietnam may have made it high profile and respectable, but it's been around forever. Right?

Anyway, I'm aware it's a serious condition, and is a problem for society in the sense that it has to be treated. But it doesn't cause a problem for society on a significant scale.

By the way, I don't think you're being naive as much as simply idealistic. You see the logic of what I'm saying, you just don't like it. And that's fine. I don't like it either. Whatever the details may be, the point remains that this guy joined the marines of his own free will, then claims he has a moral objection to killing and warfare and has to be discharged. And I agree that he should be discharged as he's obviously going to be no good at the job.

But the whole situation is just ridiculous, and he's an idiot for ever signing up if he is honestly morally against killing and war. Of course, this may all be bullshit and he just found a convenient way to get out of a nasty job he didn't want to do anymore.

JoY
04-04-2007, 12:04 PM
I like you. =)

JohnnyNemesis
04-04-2007, 12:55 PM
Doesn't mean they shouldn't be mocked if they do it.

That's the key though. He may be a "crying hippy" or whatever you wanna call it, and you can mock him for it, but he certainly doesn't care about your opinion whatsoever, and it's a good thing because he shouldn't. That doesn't mean you shouldn't share it here though, of course.

Paint_It_Black
04-04-2007, 02:27 PM
I'm either missing something or you're just stating the obvious.

JohnnyNemesis
04-04-2007, 02:53 PM
I guess I am just stating the obvious. Stop pointing out things that make me look stupid :(

Venom Symbiote
04-04-2007, 03:25 PM
Alright, I'm pretty sure Paint_It_Black considers me a stupid asshole, but screw it, he's totally right in everything he's said in this thread.

It's certainly not pretty, but the marines basically are institutionally psycho. And there is a place for that in our society, it's still a necessary function to perform. They take average or maybe slightly-disturbed late-teen kids and mold them into the baddest motherfuckers on the planet. It's what the marines do.

Now yes, there is room for moral considerations within that, and I don't appreciate the "let the bodies hit the floor" DP shitty music they forced them to take in, accompanied by images of bloodshed.

But what the fuck do I know about that? I've never trained kids into killing machines, maybe those kinds of harsh in-your-face methods are necessary to do it.

It's pretty sick, sure, but you don't join the marines in the first place unless you are too.

EMehl6
04-04-2007, 03:57 PM
I really don't have anything to add to this conversation that hasn't already been said by Paint_It_Black, he pretty much nailed it.

But, I do happen to know someone who's been in the marines for about 5 years now. He's pretty quiet and laid back, loves to talk politics, and even cracks a joke every now and then, and he's married to my cousin. They've been happily married for 2 years now, and the man goes to church every Sunday. So, as you can tell I'm sure, though the things they show may be disgusting and morally wrong, I don't think it turns these people into all out killing machines.

JohnnyNemesis
04-04-2007, 03:59 PM
Going to church every Sunday sounds like the perfect way to turn someone into a killing machine, no joke.

Paint_It_Black
04-04-2007, 08:42 PM
What the fuck? Venom and EMehl6, if you guys agree with me for God sake don't say so. Now no one's going to take any of my points seriously.

Just kidding. Well, mostly.

And Venom, I don't actually dislike you. You have irritated me occasionally, but no more than most. And I have publicly said before that you are given too much shit. It feels like half the time I agree with you quite a lot and the other half I completely disagree.

JoY
04-05-2007, 07:25 AM
But what the fuck do I know about that? I've never trained kids into killing machines, maybe those kinds of harsh in-your-face methods are necessary to do it.

It's pretty sick, sure, but you don't join the marines in the first place unless you are too.

as I said before, my grandfather's brother was with the marines. sure, he's coocoo. he's 80 & has his grey hair in a pony tail for god's sake. at the age of 65, or something like that, he married an opera singer he met when he was 23. he lives in a miniscule stone house somewhere in France without a single possession of luxury. he raised four children (well, five, but one actually turned out to be not that bad), who all became either miserable, clinically depressed, homeless, unemployed &/or drug addicted. he left his wife in Sweden, because his life was too "steady". he once walked from the Netherlands to Paris, he biked & hitch hiked his way all through Europe... he's a danger to himself & anyone he sucks into his weird world. but MAN, he invented "hippy". he's an adventurous professional painter & a total freakin' hippy to the core.

all he was looking for was discipline, adventure, traveling & a purpose. he was never fed with this kind of shit, he & his character must've been completely out of place in the marine corps, but he did his job, because it was what he signed up for & what he came for to do.

Paint_It_Black
04-05-2007, 07:59 AM
He sounds like a fascinating man Bella, a real unique character.

Sin Studly
04-05-2007, 12:54 PM
I was just thinking, he should actually get court-martialled.

I mean, if you get caught eating nitrate-propellants to make yourself look sick, or spitting out your quinine every morning in a swamp, or pretending to be a cocksucking transvestite, or shooting yourself in the fucking foot ; you get court-martialled and imprisoned, or summarily tried and shot in the heart by your duty officer. That's the way it should be. And this guy gets to traipse on out of it by acting like a crying faggot.

And man, Leavenworth... shit, just imagine a maximum security prison where every single inmate is a highly-trained killing machine. A faggot like him would get eaten alive in there.

Paint_It_Black
04-05-2007, 09:45 PM
I was just thinking, he should actually get court-martialled.

Yeah, I thought that as soon as I read it.