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Slava
12-30-2004, 12:08 AM
I hate Bush 'n his dirt business why America want to make a control under Russia, i hope Putin will do smth,what a nice state of affairs i like american simple people i mean folk

Mota Boy
12-30-2004, 01:11 AM
Yes, it's really too bad that the U.S. is preventing Russia from destroying the private industry, scaring off foreign investors. It's also too bad that mean old America is angry that kindly father Putin has abolished the direct election of governors and instead made them puppets of the prime minister. It's also horrible that we're trying to meddle in the affairs of the Ukraine. Were it not for us and the horrifically atrocious E.U., the Ukraine would've gone through with a perfectly fine, if rigged, election (but legitimate leadership is only a burden to a government, is it not?). All in all, it's too bad that the U.S. has said so many horrible things about Chechnya while valiant Putin has held his tongue at every instance where he could criticize U.S. policy in regards to Iraq...


You need to get your news through an internet service, as the Russian government currently controls all local media in the country. Sure, maybe I've been brainwashed too (shoutout to the New Radicals), but not nearly as severely as your police state has brainwashed you.


Oh yeah, and likewise, I hope that Russia turns out well, I really, really want them to and Russian citizens rock the casbah. But, to me, Putin is an even worse leader than Bush, at least domestically.

Satanic_Surfer
12-30-2004, 03:13 AM
Mota Boy, you're acting imature now, it's not like people DONT want Putin!
i agree, he aint no good leader, but in my opinion there AINT no good leaders.
But truly there is not much of a difference between Putin's ways of controlling the medias and Bush's ways.
Putin makes sure to have everything under his control for his own favour of course, Bush makes sure to have just as much under his controll that is needed to make sure he will rule the country, then not even count a ingle one of the votes from people that voted for anyone else.
It's true because dont come telling me that the Democrats in the USA actually has got a say in the government, and the fact that USA has got a president too, makes it just so clear that Bush has just the same powers as an extremely powerful dictator, as he's got during these circumstances.
Bush knows his ways of manipulating if he needs to, Putin does the same.
The fact that Bush is hand picking the judgers of highest court, will have about the same influence as Putin's way of removing the local governours.
Though the situation in Russia is not the same as in USA.
In Russia they have a giant problem wich they have not yet solved, wich no Liberals or Social Democrats could fix.
The problem im talking about is the one that occured after the Soviet Union fell, im quite sure you know what im talking about.
The capitalists bought everything that the state once owned and now we have a huge gap between the classes, there aint no middle class, there are the richies and the starving.
The richies got away with buying everything they saw very cheap after the fall of the Soviet Union. Those who were poor back in then are doing much worse now, while those who were rich back in then are doing much better now, so in my opinion, the whole situation just got worse.
To reach some sort of possible equality in Russia, Putin, who is on the starving class' side, has a great mission and he's got the trust of the people that he will do something about it.
By removing the local governours, he makes sure that nobody can change the country to become a Communist regime in the Stalinist way that it once has faced because he knows that simply does not work. But he even removed all chances for the neighbourhoods where the richies live, to cut themselves off from the rest of Russia in order to feed themselves on the starving people's share in the rest of the country.
I dont like leadership of any kind but tell me, considering the situation in Russia right now, wasnt this simply the best thing to do?

wheelchairman
12-30-2004, 05:25 AM
Hey, Satanic Surfer, I'm not replying to you because you've never learned to paragraph properly (something vital to long posts) and because your probably off topic.

Russian politics is a mess. However you can hardly be angry at the US for fiddling with Russian affairs. We all know Russia fiddles with everything else, I mean there was a reason for why earlier last year the Georgien people were afraid of Russian intervention. And of course, there is the Kremlin's candidate in Ukraine. I mean obviously invested interests there.

Putin for his entire "elected" career, has never tried to make America an enemy. In many cases I think he wants to befriend and get the aid of America. If you don't like it, and the legal opposition to the Putin regime, is still quite large, then join one of those groups that knows the elections are rigged and fake and all that.

But then again, you support Putin, in which case I find you to be nothing but a drone.

Satanic_Surfer
12-30-2004, 05:43 AM
LOL, for fucks sake, wheelchairman!
No offence really but im getting quite annoyed now. No, not because of you or anyone else, but that you seem to think i support Putin. That is nothing more than complete madness for me!
As i mentioned more than once, i do not support political leaders of any kind!
I would like to see the final solution in Russia, just as anywhere else.
I want a Socialist society without government, state and beaurocracy.
Im a Liberal Socialist, a Militant left wing Extremist, whatever you wanna call me... i believe in direct action towards Fascism and so on, so on and so on... but i do not believe in Putin, i do NOT think he is a good leader, and i know that i did mention that!
Maybe you would have got that if you did not select wich parts of my text, you would have read and understood. For i do not support Putin, though i think he's a more intelligent man than Bush ever will be.
Yet, Putin is a Socialist leader, wich makes him hell much of a better choise for me than those piles of Capitalist politicans out there. Putin has centralized his power extremely much but there is nothing that claims that a centralized government cannot lead a country as well as an open one.
Take a look at China for example, of course they're a Communist regime but for the Marxist part of it for example, they are doing quite well. They have evolved much quicker than any other country in the world, yet they have a centralized power wich im STILL against.
While George W Bush would never put a strike for equality or justice, the stuff that Putin now has done has been necessary because if the people in the wealthy parts would elect their local leaders, they would run the risks of wars inside of Russia, starvation and poverty.
And we all know what would happen if the Stalinist Communists would gain the power once again, there wouldent be much left!
Therefor, all im saying is that the actions Putin took were necessary to remain peace and to block out that classgap!
Or do you not agree? In such case, tell me so!

Dio
12-30-2004, 04:45 PM
Russian politics is a mess. However you can hardly be angry at the US for fiddling with Russian affairs. We all know Russia fiddles with everything else, I mean there was a reason for why earlier last year the Georgien people were afraid of Russian intervention. And of course, there is the Kremlin's candidate in Ukraine. I mean obviously invested interests there.



Russian politics are a mess? And American aren't? ROFL :) At least Russia isn't 50%/50% split about whether it's good to invade countries without any reason.... As a matter of fact Russia didn't invade or bomb even one single country since USSR fell....

As for 'fiddling with everything else' - no offence sir, but you're a retard... I'd like to see one concrete example of Russia trying to get involved in foreign affairs that don't concern it... And no, you can't bring up Chechnya, because those separatist scumbags are and were a part of Russia....

Georgians were afraid of Russian intervention? Boo-fucking-hoo, did anything happen? Also keep in mind that USA stations their troops there nowadays....

Ukraine elections? Do you honestly think that USA and EU weren't syphoning cash to the Uschenko camp? According to various stats they invested from $100,000,000 to $200,000,000 into his campaign... Russia's contribution to Yanukovich was much smaller, ranging somewhere under 10 million $ + that two day visit by Putin to Ukraine... I'm not sure how the fuck you can even compare those two types of interventions, especially if you'll consider that Ukraine is Russia's neighbor, not USA's.... And that about 40% of Ukraine's population are ethnic Russians, not Americans....

The bottom line is - after the fall of USSR, Russia is no longer the "evil empire" that all the western countries painted it out to be. The real threat to modern society is USA, which is the only country fiddling with others right now, and when I say "fiddling" I mean bombing... "Axis of Evil", Iraq invasion and occupation, threats to Iran and North Korea... Wake up and smell the roses, or rather which direction the shit smell comes from.

wheelchairman
12-30-2004, 05:05 PM
SatanistGuy- I wasn't talking to you. Like I said, I didn't read your post. I did notice however that you consider Putin to be a socialist, that's kinda dumb.


Russian politics are a mess? And American aren't? ROFL At least Russia isn't 50%/50% split about whether it's good to invade countries without any reason.... As a matter of fact Russia didn't invade or bomb even one single country since USSR fell....
While American elections are messed up, that's not the point. However the American elections aren't nearly as rigged as the Russian ones. I mean, it's clear to everyone that Putin was never elected to power. The Russian Federation was a part of the first coalition against Iraq, and quite obviously, did bomb it.


As for 'fiddling with everything else' - no offence sir, but you're a retard... I'd like to see one concrete example of Russia trying to get involved in foreign affairs that don't concern it... And no, you can't bring up Chechnya, because those separatist scumbags are and were a part of Russia....
I could expect that response from a Russian Nationalist. Let me guess, you also hate Jews and Gypsies correct? And either Serbs or Albanians. I wonder what you think of the Nazbols.


Georgians were afraid of Russian intervention? Boo-fucking-hoo, did anything happen? Also keep in mind that USA stations their troops there nowadays....
In what way is that relevant?


Ukraine elections? Do you honestly think that USA and EU weren't syphoning cash to the Uschenko camp? According to various stats they invested from $100,000,000 to $200,000,000 into his campaign... Russia's contribution to Yanukovich was much smaller, ranging somewhere under 10 million $ + that two day visit by Putin to Ukraine... I'm not sure how the fuck you can even compare those two types of interventions, especially if you'll consider that Ukraine is Russia's neighbor, not USA's.... And that about 40% of Ukraine's population are ethnic Russians, not Americans....
You and I both know, that those stats aren't worth a thing. But the fact that you're supporting Russian intervention in countries it should leave alone, as a good thing, is ridiculous. (and you'll go and reply and say that the EU and the US does it. My response will be, who gives a fuck? I don't like them either.)


The bottom line is - after the fall of USSR, Russia is no longer the "evil empire" that all the western countries painted it out to be. The real threat to modern society is USA, which is the only country fiddling with others right now, and when I say "fiddling" I mean bombing... "Axis of Evil", Iraq invasion and occupation, threats to Iran and North Korea... Wake up and smell the roses, or rather which direction the shit smell comes from.
Russian Oppression of Chechnya is worse. Putin's declaration that he will now use America's Pre-Emptive strike policy is also disgusting in itself, he will use it on smaller nations to exploit them for Russia's benefit. Something you probably support. The fact that Putin is stripping away what little democracy Russia has is also disturbing.

Putin is a terrible leader, who was never even elected. I am not anti-Russian, so don't try playing that card. You won't find another Dane who drinks Kvas, owns soviet-paraphnilia, travelled the Trans-Siberian, and is a supporter of Stolichnaya. However your leader is a dick.

Dio
12-30-2004, 05:12 PM
Yes, it's really too bad that the U.S. is preventing Russia from destroying the private industry, scaring off foreign investors. It's also too bad that mean old America is angry that kindly father Putin has abolished the direct election of governors and instead made them puppets of the prime minister. It's also horrible that we're trying to meddle in the affairs of the Ukraine. Were it not for us and the horrifically atrocious E.U., the Ukraine would've gone through with a perfectly fine, if rigged, election (but legitimate leadership is only a burden to a government, is it not?). All in all, it's too bad that the U.S. has said so many horrible things about Chechnya while valiant Putin has held his tongue at every instance where he could criticize U.S. policy in regards to Iraq...


You need to get your news through an internet service, as the Russian government currently controls all local media in the country. Sure, maybe I've been brainwashed too (shoutout to the New Radicals), but not nearly as severely as your police state has brainwashed you.


Oh yeah, and likewise, I hope that Russia turns out well, I really, really want them to and Russian citizens rock the casbah. But, to me, Putin is an even worse leader than Bush, at least domestically.


Mmmmmmmmmmmmm..... Where do I start?

"Yes, it's really too bad that the U.S. is preventing Russia from destroying the private industry, scaring off foreign investors." - so if the investors are foreign, tax evasion is perfectly legal? Now I get it... They should've just let UKOS get off the hook... I mean, who cares if they owe billions of dollars in back taxes... Right? *clapping hands*

"It's also too bad that mean old America is angry that kindly father Putin has abolished the direct election of governors and instead made them puppets of the prime minister. " - you certainly know lots about the elections reform, including that the prime minister himself picks the governors... Your endless wisdom and knowledge certainly amaze me, but I'd suggest you to read some more about the changes before writing BS... What you wrote here is simply untrue, so congrats. *clapping hands*. I won't bother with full explanation since you're currently clueless on the topic, but let's just put it this way - prime minister won't pick the governors, as a matter of fact the process is more complicated... Two nominations for a governor for each region will be handpicked by Putin's direct representatives, after which the names of the people will be forwarded to his chief of staff who will run background checks (mafia connections, money in bank, etc...), then forward his decision to Putin... And then the parliament has to vote on whether to accept the candidate or not. While it might look too complicated for an American (no offence), it's a necessary measure, considering that a lot of governors in the past had active criminal connections, or simply used their finances or influence to get the position...

"It's also horrible that we're trying to meddle in the affairs of the Ukraine. Were it not for us and the horrifically atrocious E.U., the Ukraine would've gone through with a perfectly fine, if rigged, election (but legitimate leadership is only a burden to a government, is it not?)." - no, as a matter of fact 40% ethnic Russian population in Ukraine should be thankful for the USA fiddling in their internal affairs and syphoning hundreds of millions of dollars to Yuschenko camp... I mean, Yuschenko is an overall great guy, except that he's a fucking nationalist (which no one in USA seems to understand), has commited electoral fraud as well (somehow 95%+ of eligible voters voted in Western Ukraine - Yuschenko's bastion of support, and no one cried "wolf" this time), and his closest ally Julia Timoshenko (to whom he promised the seat of Prime Minister once elected) is wanted by Interpol in connection to bribery... But yeah, otherwise he's cool, so let's all thank USA once again for picking their man... Yesterday Bin Laden, today Yuchenko, tomorrow = ?

"All in all, it's too bad that the U.S. has said so many horrible things about Chechnya while valiant Putin has held his tongue at every instance where he could criticize U.S. policy in regards to Iraq..." - yeah, I must agree with you here... The Russian invasion of Chechnya was horrible. They bombed hospitals, weddings, tv stations and even hotels. And they didn't even have an excuse to bomb them, after all Chechnya wasn't responsible for 9/11, like Iraq was... And of course Chechnya was an independent country, unlike Iraq, which everyone knows was always an American colony.

"But, to me, Putin is an even worse leader than Bush, at least domestically." - of course, after all Putin only tries to double the country's Gross Domestic Product by 2010, curb corrupt officials, politicians, and law enforcement agencies.... All of that is bullshit, and rather unnecessary. Bush is definitely doing a much better job... And it's okay that the dollar's value is falling. And it's okay that more and more Americans are jobless. And it's okay that people have no access to health care. And it's more than okay to give out overpriced no-bid Pentagon contracts to companies like Halliburton... I mean at least the guy's got a heart, who cares that he can't pronounce "nuclear" and reads books upside down... And that Putin guy is just evil, EVIL, EVIL, EVIL!!!!!!!



*sigh*

Dio
12-30-2004, 05:34 PM
While American elections are messed up, that's not the point. However the American elections aren't nearly as rigged as the Russian ones. I mean, it's clear to everyone that Putin was never elected to power. The Russian Federation was a part of the first coalition against Iraq, and quite obviously, did bomb it.

I'm still waiting for some facts..... So far you couldn't have been further off the mark... Russia never invaded Iraq, and Putin won by a landslide in both his elections... He had no need to rig them, since he had 0 worthy opponents. I won't bother researching the stats for you, but I remember it was around 60-70% of the votes that he got.


The United States, especially Secretary of State James Baker, assembled a coalition of forces to join it in opposing Iraq, consisting of soldiers from 34 countries: Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Honduras, Italy, Kuwait, Morocco, The Netherlands, Niger, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, South Korea, Spain, Syria, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom and the United States itself - taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War



I could expect that response from a Russian Nationalist. Let me guess, you also hate Jews and Gypsies correct? And either Serbs or Albanians. I wonder what you think of the Nazbols.

Albanians yes, others no. And Nazbols are just plain silly. Limonov should honestly rot in jail for inciting hatred and violence.


You and I both know, that those stats aren't worth a thing. But the fact that you're supporting Russian intervention in countries it should leave alone, as a good thing, is ridiculous. (and you'll go and reply and say that the EU and the US does it. My response will be, who gives a fuck? I don't like them either.)

Stats aren't worth a thing, but your opinions do, right? :) Countries? The only recent example I remember was Ukraine, and as I've mentioned before 40% of its population are RUSSIAN, so I would consider it to be a good thing to defend their interests... While I still wonder whose interests Americans and Europeans were protecting.


Russian Oppression of Chechnya is worse. Putin's declaration that he will now use America's Pre-Emptive strike policy is also disgusting in itself, he will use it on smaller nations to exploit them for Russia's benefit. Something you probably support. The fact that Putin is stripping away what little democracy Russia has is also disturbing.

Oppression? You honestly have no idea WTF you're talking about... Checnya is an integral part of Russian Federation and was for the last 2-3 centuries. Period. If Northern Denmark decides to separate itself from the rest of the country, what would you do, let it go? I'm really not sure since when protecting a country's integrity called "oppression". But okay, feel free to support the bastards that were responsible for Nord-ost, Beslan, and dozens of bombings and kidnappings around the country... If you do, you're really as good as them.


Putin is a terrible leader, who was never even elected. I am not anti-Russian, so don't try playing that card. You won't find another Dane who drinks Kvas, owns soviet-paraphnilia, travelled the Trans-Siberian, and is a supporter of Stolichnaya. However your leader is a dick.

He's not my leader, I'm Canadian, and left the country back in '91. But I'm glad to see a strong leader trying to take care of my birth country when it's at such a miserable stage of existence. Sure, he is not perfect, and he uses force to accomplish whatever he wants... But at least he's a stronger leader than Yeltzin and Gorbachyov, and seems to truly care about the country and not his personal gains. For that he has my respect and support. Also - I still want to see proof as to him not being elected... I'm sure you have it, living in Denmark and all.

wheelchairman
12-30-2004, 06:52 PM
You can claim that my being in Denmark means that I have no proof of the rigged Russian elections. But the fact that you, without any sources, claim that Putin got 70% of the vote, just shows that you never bothered to criticize your sources. Personally I would guess that a lot of rigging goes into all Eastern European elections, most especially Russia. Let's face it, he's about as elected as Lukashenko.

And you're quite right, I had heard that the USSR had participated in the Gulf War. (this was before the name change,) I was wrong.

Ah right, a dislike for all Albanians across the board, a true sign of a rational mind. At least we agree on the Nazbols, however the Nazbols have the right idea on the Chechnya issue, if not for the wrong reasons.

The argument, of the Russian population in Ukraine, needing defence from Russia, is ridiculous, and reminiscent of Hitler's excuse to meddle in neighbor countries. If Putin cares about the average Russian's interests, then why isn't he doing more in Latvia? They do have a fascist who hates Russians in charge after all.

I'm not saying that Chechnya should be an independent nation. However, Chechnya certainly will never function properly with the Russian military oppressing it. Obviously this has proven to be the wrong answer to the problem. And you can't in your right mind, associate all Chechnyans with the terrorist movement. That is as stupid as thinking all Albanians are evil.

The strong leader, is reminiscent of why people vote for fascists. They always want a strong leader. Personally I think Dyuganov was better, I'm not wild about him, but better than Putin. Although what the USSR lacks is a real socialist party in the first place, you have like 20 bizarre ones instead.

Slava
12-30-2004, 09:52 PM
People what a fuck just why why,remember 1941-45 do u want it ? I'm afraid cold war just changed its face

Mota Boy
12-30-2004, 11:18 PM
I have a horrible habit of posting once in a debate thread and never getting around to reading any of the replies, so I'll try and make this quick.

Mota Boy, you're acting imature now, it's not like people DONT want Putin!I didn't read past this part. I saw nothing overtly immature in my thread (with the exception of my New Radicals shoutout), and I have no idea what the second part had to do with my post. I was responding to criticism of U.S. "interference" with Russia to point out that 1) Russia was likewise interfering in U.S. policy (regardless of who was on the "right" side) and that 2) Russia was doing a great many things that should concern the U.S.

Having a major power backslide into an autocracy after a decade of hopeful reforms and grow increasingly belligerent, it's perfectly understandable why we'd want to keep tabs on our formal rival.

Dio, you wrote too much, edited it too poorly, and appear far too sarcastic for someone that seems to be buying the official Russian story hook, line and sinker for me to bother spending much time on it right before bed. The fact that you think you've torn my statement that "Putin handpicks the leaders" apart by pointing out that Putin's direct representatives will instead pick the leaders just comes across as defensively grasping for straws.

But shit, you took the time to reply to each of my points, so I'll wander over to the board sometime tomorrow and spit out a decent reply.

Satanic_Surfer
12-31-2004, 01:46 AM
What do you base your statement upon, that Russians elections are "rigged"?

And even if they ARE rigged, what does it matter? It's not like the people who vote has got any power in Democracies anyways, if they now happen to be rigged, at least it would spare many people the time it takes to vote. Since it does not affect the system.

If Putin would not have been elected, another leader would have been elected, and thinking of the choises, is that a good idea? For example how good idea would it be for Russia to elect leaders who want to conquer Finland and other countries in the European Union?

Putin is certainly a Socialist, but that does not have to say he's a Communist. If so, he's in the wrong party. For even the Communist Party gained many more votes than expected, if the elections would be rigged, there would not be any idea to make it seem like the Commies went up, would it? Putin does not want a Communist regime and he's had interests in actually having equality in Russia, after the USSR.

Before he was elected for president, he had been working with the defense and questions regarding that. People talked a lot about the risks of even letting Russia have a defense system, but as you probably noticed, no bullets were fired towards anyone else.

SicN Twisted
12-31-2004, 02:53 AM
Why do you all seem to think that if a president is elected, that it neccesarily means the people want him? The modern elector system that's used by Russia, the United States, and most of Europe is flawed - it doesn't accurately represent the will of the people.

SicN Twisted
12-31-2004, 02:57 AM
Putin is an ex KGB agent. It's the same lit cigarette passed to a different hand. The same lies, different liars. At least Soviet premiers managed to keep the economy stable.

Dio
12-31-2004, 03:29 AM
You can claim that my being in Denmark means that I have no proof of the rigged Russian elections. But the fact that you, without any sources, claim that Putin got 70% of the vote, just shows that you never bothered to criticize your sources. Personally I would guess that a lot of rigging goes into all Eastern European elections, most especially Russia. Let's face it, he's about as elected as Lukashenko.

Hrm, I really don't understand your point... You keep talking about Putin being an illegitimate president with 0 proof to back it up... My "sources" are the official central electoral commision-released numbers... Worldwide accepted, with thousands of observers being present during elections and calling them legitimate... Now what are your mysterious and oh-so-reliable sources? :confused:


Ah right, a dislike for all Albanians across the board, a true sign of a rational mind. At least we agree on the Nazbols, however the Nazbols have the right idea on the Chechnya issue, if not for the wrong reasons.

Not the board, more like in general... Personal reasons you might say :P Also I don't think that letting Chechnya go would be the right solution, as then all the neighbouring regions would follow.


The argument, of the Russian population in Ukraine, needing defence from Russia, is ridiculous, and reminiscent of Hitler's excuse to meddle in neighbor countries. If Putin cares about the average Russian's interests, then why isn't he doing more in Latvia? They do have a fascist who hates Russians in charge after all.

On the contrary, your rebuttal to my argument is rather ridiculous... The circumstances are not the same, because there's barely 10% Russian population in Latvia... Furthermore Latvia was forcefully annexed by USSR back in the day, and never really wanted to have anything in common with Russia... Meanwhile, Ukrainians are Slavs just like Russians...


I'm not saying that Chechnya should be an independent nation. However, Chechnya certainly will never function properly with the Russian military oppressing it. Obviously this has proven to be the wrong answer to the problem. And you can't in your right mind, associate all Chechnyans with the terrorist movement. That is as stupid as thinking all Albanians are evil.

Once again, you're rather clueless... The first Chechnian campaign has started in 1994 after Russia closed its eyes on Chechnyan government since the break of the USSR. Back then there were no troops there. We all know how it ended - ethnic Russians were abused, kicked out of their homes, women raped in front of their husbands. Then they decided to establish a sovereign country, and that's when troops came in. So this so called "oppression" is the product of Chechnian leadership at the time... And yeah, there's obviously some sane Chechnyans out there, like the now-dead Kadyrov and his son, but unfortunately you can never be certain... There were numerous cases of terrorists infiltrating local law enforcement services and using their position to aid their own.


The strong leader, is reminiscent of why people vote for fascists. They always want a strong leader. Personally I think Dyuganov was better, I'm not wild about him, but better than Putin. Although what the USSR lacks is a real socialist party in the first place, you have like 20 bizarre ones instead.

If you think Zyuganov was better you should consult a psychologist... Thinking that a "classic" Soviet era hardcore communist who wants to de-privitize everything can be good for running any country (especially Russia in its current stage) is sheer madness.

wheelchairman
12-31-2004, 05:36 AM
Of course I suspect fraudulence, I'm surprised you don't. No one would've taken Pravda's word for 100% 20 years ago (back when it was an organ of the party). Why do you take the official state line now?
I do think that perhaps Yeltsin was a real democrat, however Putin, I don't see as any sort of democrat.

Ah you don't not like Albanians across the board, you just don't like them in general. Please excuse my confusion there.

In the Baltic nations, Slavic natives make up 40% of the population, yet they don't have civil rights. Are they less important than those in Ukraine?

I'm well aware of Chechnya's attempts at establishing a Greater Chechnya. And quit with your Russian sob stories, you can find equally as many abuses against the Chechen people by scared-to-shit young, Poorly trained Russian Conscripts who are stationed there. If you read my post, you'd see I didn't argue for independence of Chechnya, just greater autonomy.
But let's face it, the Russian military in Chechnya has alienated even the average Chechen from Russia, generally foreign armies do that. What you should do, is make it a far more international force, and definitely a peace-keeping one. Build up a stable Chechnya, and then let the Chechen people vote in a setting that would lack bombs and terrorism.

And I'm shocked, just utterly shocked that you find Kadyrov to be a logical thinking man. Could never have guessed that.

Economically speaking, the USSR was better off, than it is today. So why not have Zyuganov? Besides if he's elected, you'd make a killing off of Ostalgie tourism.

Slava
12-31-2004, 08:10 AM
Putin kicks ass 'n Bush just fucking son of motherfucker, i'm sorry

Satanic_Surfer
12-31-2004, 08:52 AM
I guess Slava is telling more than needed by those few words... isnt the best thing that the Russians accept their own president? That way they will feel safe and keep up their hope for a better place to live in!
Unless... they start to argue about how other countries do their work... like some certain other country does...

wheelchairman
12-31-2004, 09:06 AM
I find it odd that a Satano-Anarchist is telling other nationalities that they should accept their 'leader'.

Satanic_Surfer
12-31-2004, 09:41 AM
Lol, yeah... but it's true!
In lack of a better solution, the best way that Russia can go by "legal" alternatives, is Putin, that is my point of view.
The happiness of the people always comes first, and if the people WANT their leader, let that be so.
But dont slag off the Russians because they support their leader by themselves.

DirtyMagical
12-31-2004, 10:00 AM
I guess Slava is telling more than needed by those few words... isnt the best thing that the Russians accept their own president? That way they will feel safe and keep up their hope for a better place to live in!
Unless... they start to argue about how other countries do their work... like some certain other country does...


You sounds like a babysitter talking about the retarded kids that he/she has to work with. Very upsetting. tisk tisk

Satanic_Surfer
12-31-2004, 10:02 AM
wow i didnt know i was THAT evil... i hate babysitters! =O

Slava
12-31-2004, 06:53 PM
Just thanx i hope all u dudes have Rock against Prick oh i'm sorry Bush

Slava
12-31-2004, 07:00 PM
You sounds like a babysitter talking about the retarded kids that he/she has to work with. Very upsetting. tisk tisk

What a bullshit 'bout babysitters, hey man Satanic_Surfer is right

Mota Boy
01-01-2005, 02:13 AM
I have not read anything after my last post. This is just to say that I at least might remember to reply in the future.

Dio
01-11-2005, 11:11 PM
Sorry, completely forgot about this thread after new year's partying :) Anyway, here's my 2 (or more) cents.


Of course I suspect fraudulence, I'm surprised you don't. No one would've taken Pravda's word for 100% 20 years ago (back when it was an organ of the party). Why do you take the official state line now?

I take "official" line because no international observers, nor EU or USA had problems with it... The same EU and USA that moaned and bitched about Ukraine elections. Should I say more? Actually I can... Putin is very popular in Russia, with approval rating well over 60%+ at all times, so he needs not to play dirty games to get elected.


I do think that perhaps Yeltsin was a real democrat, however Putin, I don't see as any sort of democrat.

1991 era Yeltsin indeed was a true democrat... I'm sure that every Russian will remember him speaking to a crowd while standing on a tank during the Putch... But ultimately he wasn't strong minded enough to guide the country through a hard transition period, and eventually succumbed to alcohol abuse and shady patronages from biggest Russian busimess/mafia-men (oligarkhi).

The question you should really ask, is whether a constantly drunk burgeoning ex-democrat is better for a country's well-being than an ex-intelligence officer without any bad habits or shady connections... In Putin's case it seems like he can control both the political and economical spheres (examples of the latter - stable Ruble, and no major financial crisises have happened since Putin came to power), while Yeltsin's last few years as president were spent distributing the country's wealth and important positions in government to family and friends, and recovering from hangovers almost daily.


In the Baltic nations, Slavic natives make up 40% of the population, yet they don't have civil rights. Are they less important than those in Ukraine?

Your question is unfair, and doesn't take past history and current political situation in those countries into account. Ukraine is a Slavic country, just like Russia - while the Baltic states aren't. Ukrainian government so far (under Kuchma's presidency) was considerably closer to Russia and other ex-CIS nations than to Europe and the West in general, while Baltic states took a pro-Nationalist+pro-West and anti-Russian stance right after USSR broke down. Furthermore, the percentage and total amount of Russian citizens in Baltic states isn't even close to the one that Ukraine has.... and as a matter of fact some parts of Eastern Ukraine Ukraine originally belonged to Tzarist Russian Empire (Donetsk, for example)... And ok I don't even mention the fact that Great Russia's capital was in Kiev, loooooong before Moscow was built.

So.... yeah, your argument is invalid, sorry ;)


I'm well aware of Chechnya's attempts at establishing a Greater Chechnya. And quit with your Russian sob stories, you can find equally as many abuses against the Chechen people by scared-to-shit young, Poorly trained Russian Conscripts who are stationed there. If you read my post, you'd see I didn't argue for independence of Chechnya, just greater autonomy.
But let's face it, the Russian military in Chechnya has alienated even the average Chechen from Russia, generally foreign armies do that. What you should do, is make it a far more international force, and definitely a peace-keeping one. Build up a stable Chechnya, and then let the Chechen people vote in a setting that would lack bombs and terrorism.

They're not "sob stories"... As I've already mentioned Chechens started this conflict, not Russians, and this was just to indicate who has attacked first. Furthermore, you're right about poorly trained conscripts who are ready to shit their pants on frontline... It was a pity that those young 18-20 year old guys have made up the bulk of troops (and casualties) in both of the Chechen campaigns... They obviously weren't ready for the carnage and mayhem they were exposed to, so sadly some of them went overboard, which is regrettable.... However, I'm sure you've seen some Faces of Deaths videos of young Russian conscripts in Chechnia on the internet... Wonder what you'd feel like if you were told to go there tomorrow?

However, you're once again somewhat off the mark... If you haven't heard the news (last 2-3 years...), currently most of the Russian soldiers in Chechnia serve on contract (paid) basis, with only around 20% of the 100,000 ppl battlegroup being drafted conscripts. So the problem of 18 year old kids unloading magazines into civilians because they're scared of them is not too actual.... Furthermore, Chechnian security forces (police and "Kadyrov's securitiy service") have recently taken over most daily security operations in the region, so it's hard to pin blame on evil Russian troops now... And if you don't like Chechnians fighting other Chechnians, well, that's just too bad... I guess in that case all we're missing there is Danish peacekeepers - send 'em over if you wish ;)


And I'm shocked, just utterly shocked that you find Kadyrov to be a logical thinking man. Could never have guessed that.

He was one... He made the right choice after the first campaign, even though he was one of the most important spiritual leaders the rebels had. Instead of fighting the Federals he had decided to work on establishing law again in Chechnia, and taking care of the needs of the regular people... After he came to power, reconstruction projects started again, financial aid came flowing into the region, and refugees started to return to their houses. He even actually got quite a few of the rebels to come back to the 'good' side too... And even if some of his methods to do so were rather unorthodox (mostly
"whip and cookie" tactics), I think he did it because he wanted best for his people.... Dunno, or maybe I'm just too much of an idealist.... I just think that unlike Basayev and Maskhadov, he has done quite a lot to improve the lives of the "common folk" in Chechnia.



Economically speaking, the USSR was better off, than it is today. So why not have Zyuganov? Besides if he's elected, you'd make a killing off of Ostalgie tourism.

This is a completely different issue on its own. It's getting late, so I can't write an indepth argument on the topic, maybe next time... All I can say is that Zyuganov is used to no open/private economy, and at the stage of development where Russia is now, he wouldn't be able to do any good... He's a good politician, but his skills in economics and security (military/intelligence) really need to be worked on in order for him to be taken seriously.... And I think he knows it... at least that would explain why he's so comfortable with the role of a political clown known for amusing sayings and his extraordinary tendency to get involved in every major scandel/fight, no matter what it's about. Ah, and did you hear that recently the Russian commie party has split into two after almost half of its members wanted him to resign as the secretary general? Was only a few months ago... Some members left Zyuganov's party and joined the newly established commie one, with some dude from St Petersburg running it.