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View Full Version : The choice between multiculturalism and women's rights in the West



Mota Boy
04-30-2007, 11:43 AM
"Do you believe in the rights of women, or do you believe in multiculturalism? A series of verdicts in the German courts in the past month, have shown with hot, hard logic that you can't back both. You have to choose." Discuss (http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/johann_hari/article2496657.ece).

At what point must we impose our cultural values on others? And yes, I'm using that wishy-washy terminology, though not with the intent of conveying the usual negative connotations associated with the phrase - for instance, it'd be hard to argue that female circumcision is not a cultural trait, and yet you would be hard-pressed to find someone in the Western world world who would claim that our governments should respect it and allow it in modern society. So, how should we balance the Western concept of human rights with the concept of multiculturalism?

Sin Studly
04-30-2007, 12:29 PM
Shoot all the islams.

Llamas
04-30-2007, 05:30 PM
It's really tough... I mean, if some culture allowed murder and stealing, the US would certainly not allow that as multi-culturalism. It's so hard to draw a line between what should be allowed and what should be considered not okay as far as other cultures go.

Is there anything they could do like have the whole female circumcision thing be more formal, where the woman in question has to go and sign some papers and forms, etc, and it's all done professionally and lawfully? Or is this still breaching the beliefs these people hold in their cultures?

edit: by the way, that initial story told in that article is very wrong. She should have expected it because she's muslim? By that logic, a woman shouldn't ever be able to file for divorce from her husband if they're Christians. That's not multiculturalism, in my opinion. The rest of those stories are equally fucked up.

Little_Miss_1565
04-30-2007, 10:14 PM
So this case took place in Germany, right? I assume that Germans enjoy, along with ther 35 hour working week, laws against domestic abuse. The rule of law in any country trumps supposed multiculturalism. As with anything, your right to express yourself and your beliefs end where mine begin. In this case "you" is a subculture to the dominant society and "my" and "mine" is the dominant society. If you want your perfect Muslim right to beat your wife, do it in a country that doesn't have laws against that shit. The idea of multiculturalism I'd had before was the idea of entertaining and respecting other cultures within the scope of the dominant culture. Why would it need to mean letting an outside culture trump the dominant one?

HornyPope
05-01-2007, 11:41 AM
I think we first have to establish that there are distinctly different cases of women abuse. Rape is bad, but conjugal violence for example is just another way some members of a nuclear family interact, and we just have to accept it.

Sarah, do you hate Muslim cultures specifically or do you hate every nation where there is woman-bashing?

Little_Miss_1565
05-01-2007, 01:32 PM
conjugal violence for example is just another way some members of a nuclear family interact, and we just have to accept it.

Funny how the law says otherwise, isn't it?

wheelchairman
05-01-2007, 02:36 PM
Ah yes I remember when feminists were saying that 80 years ago too.

no wait... dude...what?

Coleby
05-01-2007, 03:01 PM
I think the laws should be the laws for what country you're in. But if only every country had good laws..

HornyPope
05-01-2007, 06:59 PM
Funny how the law says otherwise, isn't it?

Funny how you wouldn't use this argument if the laws allowed wife battering.

Btw, i'm really curious. Do you hate cultures where violence between spouses is more common? Do you look down on them?

Mota Boy
05-01-2007, 10:38 PM
I certainly do, though "hate" is a silly word to use.

JoY
05-02-2007, 12:35 AM
what I was discussing very recently (the same as 1565 basically said); the multicultural society, do you take that as the society's own culture losing its dominating position, so all cultures within the society can be equal, or do you take that as simply more cultures than only the dominating culture, living side by side?

I like to see it as the last option, but that can't be done without the dominating culture making way for the others to be practiced. my roommate was arguing that the original dominating culture is forced to lose its character to adjust to other cultures to establish the realisation of a multicultural society.

in example, I do hate how we have to accept that some folks just won't greet women & homosexuals with a handshake, which is the standard here, because we have to accept & adjust to their culture. basically that's violation of our own. & it bugs me that we're expected to adjust to other cultures, when I don't see a lot of that happening the other way around. logical, because you can't realise a multicultural society without accepting the imported cultures & we're the ones in the position to accept & they're in the position to be accepted. it's fucked. we're fucked.

UgLy_eLf
05-02-2007, 04:52 AM
Supply women with steroids and let them duke it out with their boys.

Sin Studly
05-02-2007, 05:37 AM
What do you call a woman with two black eyes...?

JoY
05-02-2007, 06:59 AM
Sexy Panda? ;p

endlesst0m
05-02-2007, 07:18 AM
Topics like these make my head hurt. I feel like I'm forced into choosing between two things that I've previously come to know as "bad" or "wrong". So it makes it hard to feel good about whatever side I may take.

Little_Miss_1565
05-02-2007, 08:58 AM
What do you call a woman with two black eyes...?

I thought it was "what do you tell a woman with two black eyes? Nothing, you already told her twice!"

Sin Studly
05-02-2007, 09:26 AM
... that's awful!!!! I was going to say "An unfortunate victim of misogynistic social conditioning and patriarchal dogma"

I had no idea you'd try to turn domestic violence into a big joke. Isn't this a serious issue that affects millions of women every day?

HornyPope
05-02-2007, 11:36 AM
Yeah, a joke like that is a pretty insensitive way to disregard millions of victims of two-black-eye syndrome.


I certainly do, though "hate" is a silly word to use.

Oh so this is contempt? Yankee, understand this isn't your mother you're defeinding, it's people-from-a-far-away-land-for-whom-you-never-cared-for, why do you think you are in a position to judge? Have you actually considered that some women might deserve this?

Bella, who is asking you to accept that? You mean you're surprised to know that there are people who refuse to shake hands with fags?

nieh
05-02-2007, 12:49 PM
Bella, who is asking you to accept that? You mean you're surprised to know that there are people who refuse to shake hands with fags?

Who here shakes hands with fags? You can catch the gay like that.

JoY
05-02-2007, 12:57 PM
Bella, who is asking you to accept that? You mean you're surprised to know that there are people who refuse to shake hands with fags?

no, I'm surprised they expect us to accept it. "it's unacceptable in my culture", well, guess what, welcome to the Netherlands. here it's unacceptable to treat homosexuals with such disrespect.

what do you do.. when two cultures clash? & I'm aware cultures clash all the fucking time. but what do you exactly do when both parties (in this case) are expecting acceptance of each other (bcuz, omg multicultural society), when customs & habits aren't only limited to just that culture, but affect the other too, where they are the opposite of the norm? see example.

wheelchairman
05-02-2007, 01:02 PM
no, I'm surprised they expect us to accept it. "it's unacceptable in my culture", well, guess what, welcome to the Netherlands. here it's unacceptable to treat homosexuals with such disrespect.

what do you do.. when two cultures clash? & I'm aware cultures clash all the fucking time. but what do you exactly do when both parties (in this case) are expecting acceptance of each other (bcuz, omg multicultural society), when customs & habits aren't only limited to just that culture, but affect the other too, where they are the opposite of the norm? see example.

What happens when you have a multicultural society, and the existance of this multi cultural society allows for the existance of a society that is against multiculturalism? Do you then use your multi cultural beliefs to enforce this other culture to become part of the mass culture?

That is hypocritical at least. Why don't you just admit it, you're not a multi-culturalist. Neither is Holland. It's a former empire, with a nearly homogenic population. And there is nothing wrong with that. It's not like you're the United States or anything.

It's like when the Algerian military overthrew the government because the people elected an anti-democratic government (aspiring dictators, if you'll understand me.) They overthrew the democratically elected government to preserve democracy.

HornyPope
05-02-2007, 01:44 PM
Wow, is everyone in the Nederlands like pro homo?

JoY
05-02-2007, 01:45 PM
I don't think you entirely understood my point. (though I'm not at all saying you're wrong, because I'm in no way objective enough to make a judgement on that) yes, yes, yes, you need to be accepting towards each other's customs to become a multicultural society. tollerance.

my question is, is it a necessity to diminish the position of the leading, dominating, original culture, & is it a condition for all cultures within a multicultural society to reach a level of complete equality, to establish a "true" multicultural society?

my second question is, would that even be possible for a country like for instance the Netherlands?

my roommate has made it her personal belief that it isn't, but we're still debating on the subject, because me & my boyfriend aren't yet entirely sure what to think of the matter.

again, to prevent any possible miscommunication; if Dutch people with their Dutch customs & morals would accept that people of another culture refuse to shake the hands of (Dutch) women & homosexuals.. that would go against the own customs & morals.
the other way around; if people of another culture, in the Netherlands, accept here it's a custom to greet each other with a handshake & discriminating between "categories" of people who you shake hands with is offensive, that goes directly against their customs & morals.

so how are you EVER supposed to compromise? that is my most important question.
because in such a case, where you obviously can't have both & make both sides happy, would the original, dominating culture be in the position to accept another's culture's customs & beliefs, or would the "imported" culture be in the position to accept the customs & beliefs of the country they're staying in? even if the two were completely equal & there was no dominating culture, one eventually would have to give in & make way.

& with the compromising, where does it begin & where does it end?

since we're claiming to be oh so multicultural (which doesn't exactly work, as you can see), we kinda have to accept customs, habits, beliefs & morals that don't work with our own, even if they involve & affect us/our own in social encounters. but if you were to avoid social encounters to avoid such problems, you don't get much of a multicultural society.

this particular issue was solved by the person involved by an agreement not to shake hands with anyone anymore, so there wouldn't be any form of discrimination. pretty good solution & personally I find it as acceptable as hilarious, but problem is, objectively now he's going against our custom to greet each other with a handshake all together. I realise this is an extremely tiny issue compared to the many issues one can have, because of huge differences between two cultures. but what if this wasn't such a tiny issue?

& what if he shakes the hand of a closet homosexual, or a homosexual he doesn't know is a homosexual? *snickers*

Speakeasy
05-02-2007, 09:12 PM
Down with women's rights. Hell, when I'm king you all lose you civil rights and liberties for extortion by business. Then I'll dip into a giant national deficit, cut taxes, and start a war so you'll all love me, until you start hating me and I lose control of congress. The end.

JoY
05-02-2007, 11:38 PM
when I'm king.

3 problems with this post:

1) you = too insignificant.

2) being a sexist does not make you sound tough.
it works for very few people, who do it with a certain style, class & charm.

3) you do not have style, class, or charm.

wheelchairman
05-03-2007, 04:22 AM
Joy, you can definitely have more than one distinct culture in a nation. The Frisiaans I think are an example of this. I don't know though. However more often than not cultures just disappear when a minority interbreeds with the majority. In the 1700's a whole lot of Dutch farmers moved to Denmark. You would never know this today because their culture is completely gone. Jews for centuries preserved their culture.

The most common form of two cultures living together is the Dominant/Submissive way. Like you have in Holland. Where the dominant culture runs the show, and the submissive one lives in the ghetto.

These are all multicultural society. But for example with the muslims in Holland. They aren't equal for the simple fact that the dominant Dutch culture can breach the sovereignty of the muslim culture by not allowing it's customs. So no, you really can't say it's multicultural, it's the conformation of the muslim culture into the Dutch culture.

The compromise should be any easy one. Just go with common sense.
1. Stop caring about stupid fucking handshakes. Srlsy. Who cares if a muslim won't shake hands with a fag? Ohh how horrible.
2. Obviously things like spousal abuse should not be allowed. Culture is just a bad excuse.

I mean that's just my personal opinion. That a new culture should fit into the mold of the host society. It should however be understood that a lot of the immigrants, are uneducated and backwards peasants, with traumas and personal issues do to events in their homeland. While spousal abuse is not a good thing, I would link it more to a lack of education than culture. You get spousal abuse among rednecks in th states as well. You actually get it everywhere.

Sin Studly
05-03-2007, 08:21 AM
Dominant/submissive is the wrong way to put it. After all, the Germans in Germany submit a whole lot more than the Turks do.

HornyPope
05-03-2007, 08:30 AM
It's only normal that if you let in hordes of people from different continents, there will be major cultural clashes. Refusing to handshake isn't really a big deal.

I'm just surprised it's never been a problem in Holland before. Everywhere else the gays already know how to deal with homophobes.

wheelchairman
05-03-2007, 09:16 AM
Dominant/submissive is the wrong way to put it. After all, the Germans in Germany submit a whole lot more than the Turks do.

The politicians do. And so do a lot of the people. But there is a reason why nationalist parties seem to be getting more and more popular.

HornyPope
05-03-2007, 01:33 PM
The post bitter-defeat parties?

wheelchairman
05-03-2007, 01:42 PM
No idea. I'm not exactly using the most recent news.

HornyPope
05-03-2007, 01:53 PM
It's all shit.

JoY
05-03-2007, 11:49 PM
The compromise should be any easy one. Just go with common sense.
1. Stop caring about stupid fucking handshakes. Srlsy. Who cares if a muslim won't shake hands with a fag? Ohh how horrible.
2. Obviously things like spousal abuse should not be allowed. Culture is just a bad excuse.


I already said I took this as an example, because it just works, but that it's a completely insignificant issue of no value at all. well, some people would highly disagree, but that's because they're probably afraid we'd have to trade in more customs, beliefs & morals then just this very, very tiny one for a multicultural society, to get along.


Dominant/submissive is the wrong way to put it. After all, the Germans in Germany submit a whole lot more than the Turks do.

I don't know if the example fully works right now, because I'm not too updated, but I wanted to make the same point. & it's basically the point of my post, too. the whole issue on who should accept who, when you can't compromise.

wheelchairman
05-04-2007, 07:05 AM
I already said I took this as an example, because it just works, but that it's a completely insignificant issue of no value at all. well, some people would highly disagree, but that's because they're probably afraid we'd have to trade in more customs, beliefs & morals then just this very, very tiny one for a multicultural society, to get along.


Yeah yeah, and I replied to your post as I read it. You said it later down that it as an example. So I had already written that and felt too lazy to go back and change it.

JoY
05-04-2007, 08:20 AM
well yeah, of course I don't seriously care that much about a fucking handshake. *giggles*

Nicole
05-09-2007, 10:15 AM
What an arsehole of a judge!

The rights of women definately way more important. "Multiculturalism" in that context is an excuse for not having the guts to single out people or groups that do wrong in the context of right and wrong in our society.

Multiculturalism should not be the downfall of basic human rights. When people immigrate to certain countries from their homelands there surely must be attraction to some of the advantages of that country. To generalise freedom of speech, more economic freedom, place to raise a family, better healthcare and education.

I think multiculturalism should be about things such as having a society that is diverse in its language groups, religions, peoples and all those nice things WITHIN the bounds of the laws of the country they live in. Countries should stop scacrificing their own beliefs under the pretense that it might offend somebody. If people don't like it they don't have to be there. Everybody should be afforded the same rights to practise their own beliefs so long as it doesn't infringe on other people and their basic human rights. That's the basic thing. If the religion doesn't agree, tough shit. Go live in a religious state. People should ideally be able to worship their god and go to heaven and let other people find their own way through life, not harrass and ridicule and beat and murder them.

Respect should not be a cover for sheer idiocy and being too chickenshit to stop people from doing wrong and instead letting them run riot. "it's their culture" :mad: grow a set and uphold YOUR cultural beliefs.

calichix
05-09-2007, 10:31 AM
aw, welcome back, nicole. :]

Sin Studly
05-09-2007, 10:31 AM
Funny, you let us whites kill your sacred totem animals and mine your holy sites and don't sentence us to execution by spearing. Grow a set and uphold YOUR cultural beliefs for once, Noonga.

Nicole
05-09-2007, 10:42 AM
Funny, you let us whites kill your sacred totem animals and mine your holy sites and don't sentence us to execution by spearing. Grow a set and uphold YOUR cultural beliefs for once, Noonga.

hmmm.
a) Totem animals aren't like the sacred cows. They are just totems.
b) holy is way way off the mark. Sounds too christian or western. Usually means "spirits" are around the site and usually only visited for ceremonial purposes. Like Canberra. Evil spirits, according to Aboriginal law, inhabit that site. I'm sure the epicentre must be capital hill cause the government is definately screwed.

Spear vs gun= common sense outcome.

I have no cultural affiliation with the noongars. Just knowledge I've accumulated for a silly university assignment.

Sin Studly
05-09-2007, 10:52 AM
Except that you're related to them, damned tribal.

Little_Miss_1565
05-09-2007, 04:03 PM
Except that you're related to them, damned tribal.

LOL, part Maori.

Sin Studly
05-09-2007, 11:56 PM
Dogeating chinagook.

Vera
05-10-2007, 12:48 AM
I'm refusing to shake hands with ALL of you goddamn degenerates.