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endlesst0m
05-17-2007, 01:32 PM
In your opinion, does Affirmative Action help to overcome past inequalities, or is it counterproductive?

JohnnyNemesis
05-17-2007, 01:36 PM
Statistically, white women are the number one beneficiaries of affirmative action in the United States. Look it up, everyone.

I just wanted to state that before this discussion even started, because about 99.999999% of these kinds of debates always overlook little things like...y'know, FACTS like that. The discussion is always framed in different terms, etc.

Carry on!

nieh
05-17-2007, 02:20 PM
Affirmative action is nice in theory but isn't the best thing ever in practice, at least not as it is now. It should probably focus more on your class rather than your race. Really though, no matter what's done to change it someone's going to end up getting unfairly screwed and if they get rid of it completely someone's still going to get unfairly screwed. I guess having it is better than not having it, screwing middle class white people that probably have at least SOMETHING they can fall back on for a little while is better than screwing lower class people that are more likely to actually need the job to survive.

edit:
I think I read somewhere that it takes an average lower class family at least 5 generations before they're able to reach middle class 'success'. That's kind of depressing.

coke_a_holic
05-17-2007, 02:36 PM
It should probably focus more on your class rather than your race.

What he said. In what little research I've done (I wrote a short report on Affirmative Action for my English class a few weeks ago), the one thing that one of the sources bemoaned was that Affirmative Action favors the son of a rich black doctor over the son of an impoverished white waitress, which doesn't really make much sense. It was originally intended to help the severe racial inequalities get fixed by giving minorities a head start and it did that perfectly, and while the races aren't equally balanced by any stretch of the imagination, it would make sense to change it to use social class as a means to determine race, rather than further stereotypes that say that race is a basis for class.

Mota Boy
05-17-2007, 03:09 PM
I do think that it's somewhat understandable in the instance of universities, where it's beneficial to be surrounded by a diverse student body, but for jobs I think it's more appropriate to hire the most skilled workers, especially for jobs in the public service. I think the main focus on removing racial inequality should be on attacking the sources of it to best ensure a level playing field rather than allowing certain groups to fall behind and then jerry-rigging the outcome.

XYlophonetreeZ
05-17-2007, 03:21 PM
I think that it's mostly been a negative thing, mainly because it's taken the focus off of improving public schools in low-income neighborhoods and making college more affordable. It's also undoubtedly fueled a good deal of racism, especially on college campuses.

In South Africa, apartheid was notoriously overcorrected. Companies were forced to fire a certain percentage of all white workers in favor of blacks, most of whom were inexperienced, sometimes even illiterate. That resulted in the continuation of a hellishly racist environment that persists throughout the country today. While affirmative action has the right idea and seeks to better education for minorities before just throwing them into economically equal status, it does that in the absolute laziest way possible- by adjusting admissions criteria. This means that for 12 years of a young African-American's life, virtually nothing is different from what they would have been before affirmative action. And college is so out of the question financially for many that high school educations aren't taken seriously. So reforming that situation should be the priority I think.

Sin Studly
05-18-2007, 12:03 PM
Heh, they had that here for a while. The government would pay part of a boong's wage if somebody hired them. After employers discovered what boong employees were like, the government had to pay the boongs ENTIRE wage and then pay the employer extra to make up for the losses incurred by having a free boong employee, and employers still avoided that system like the cholera.

So yeah, in Australia people have pretty much given up on affirmative action, but there's still some support for the "Great Apes emancipation" ; in which gorrillas and stuff are given suffrage.

Nicole
06-10-2007, 01:27 PM
Affirmative action= load of shit. Once again it detracts from peoples personal merits and lumps people into nice tidy little groups of us and them. There's no overcoming the mistakes of the past if you cannot move forward and view people as people in their own right.

TBD
06-12-2007, 04:54 AM
Affirmative action is one of the most ridiculous things ever proposed, and I can't believe I occasionally have bouts of lapses in judgement where I think it is a good idea. I love how affirmative action as used by many institutions in America today does not give preferential treatment to Asians (esp. Japanese) as a result of their success in overcoming discrimination. If it is to overcome past inequalities then people just need to be reminded of Korematsu v US.

nieh
06-12-2007, 06:32 PM
If it is to overcome past inequalities then people just need to be reminded of Korematsu v US.

You're comparing 3 years this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment) to centuries of slavery?

JohnnyNemesis
06-12-2007, 06:51 PM
Korematsu v US.

Don't be such an idiot, seriously.


If it is to overcome past inequalities

It's not. It's supposed to overcome the lingering effects of past inequalities. What are these lingering effects?

Current inequalities. Derf.

Seriously, you can have your stance, that's cool, but at least try to understand the policy's intentions beyond the kind of shit that's passed around in chain e-mails and Myspace bulletins.

ps. Sorry for the crankiness and grumpiness. I'm hungry :(

TBD
06-12-2007, 06:57 PM
It's way more recent and people alive today had involvement in it. I don't see how people can advocate affirmative action for Hispanics while ignoring Asians. I'm not advocating Korematsu was as bad as slavery, I'm just saying it was a past wrong, (although the US government has apologized and gave reparations for it) that if affirmative action is around, it can't punish certain societal groups for being successful.

Diversity in institutions is important I just don't see how affirmative action will end up blurring a distinction in race when it relies on that distinction to exist. I've flipped flopped as much as Mitt Romney on this issue in my life though. I might feel differently in a few months depending on life experiences, I'm just stating my opinion at the moment.

JohnnyNemesis
06-12-2007, 07:03 PM
(although the US government has apologized and gave reparations for it)

Both of which are things that the US hasn't done for blacks or many other groups. How can you be okay with Asians getting reparations while other groups don't, yet still blast Affirmative Action for ignoring Asians? To follow the way you break things down, why would Asians even need Affirmative Action if they've already received their apologies and reparations? Again, other groups have received neither.


it can't punish certain societal groups for being successful.

It doesn't. It recognizes that a large part of that success is linked to the long history (and current perpetuation) of inequality. I'd have to write a book on it in order to sway even one person slightly, so PM me if you want a list of books already written with hard data (both statistical and anecdotal) on it all.


I just don't see how affirmative action will end up blurring a distinction in race when it relies on that distinction to exist.

It doesn't rely on that distinction to exist: race is only one part of the equation, as I mentioned earlier with white women receiving the most benefits numerically.

sKratch
06-12-2007, 07:04 PM
I'm somewhat conflicted about affirmative action. I don't like it, but there's got to be some way to overcome race/gender/class barriers in the employment world. I don't know of a good and practical way though.

TBD
06-12-2007, 07:13 PM
Both of which are things that the US hasn't done for blacks or many other groups. How can you be okay with Asians getting reparations while other groups don't, yet still blast Affirmative Action for ignoring Asians? To follow the way you break things down, why would Asians even need Affirmative Action if they've already received their apologies and reparations? Again, other groups have received neither.
.

Racism that has faced Asian-Americans in the past isn't strictly limited to the Japanese people interned, it also impacts the separation in schools that happened early in the 20th century, as well as the complete ban on immigrants that happened for like 50 years as well. The Japanese internment is the only thing that is remotely calculatable though in my opinion in terms of reparations. Take out African Americans from this equation for one second though, why would hispanics deserve affirmative action over say Chinese, who have a history of being discriminated against as in the supreme court case Yick Wo v. Hopkins. I'd say the racism faced between the two groups are pretty equal in my mind historically.

TBD
06-12-2007, 07:15 PM
I'm somewhat conflicted about affirmative action. I don't like it, but there's got to be some way to overcome race/gender/class barriers in the employment world. I don't know of a good and practical way though.

Fixing the K-12 education system from its hideous difference between lower and upper income areas would be a huge start. However, the most practical solution is one that doesn't appear to be in place.

TBD
06-12-2007, 07:18 PM
Don't be such an idiot, seriously.

Seriously, you can have your stance, that's cool, but at least try to understand the policy's intentions beyond the kind of shit that's passed around in chain e-mails and Myspace bulletins.


Don't ruin a legitimate discussion with insults and names.

Edit: Do you think first generation hispanics should recieve the benefits of affirmative action?

2nd edit: How is mentioning Korematsu idiotic?

JohnnyNemesis
06-12-2007, 08:21 PM
Don't ruin a legitimate discussion with insults and names.

I already apologized for this one (check my Edit in that post).

As for the rest of your comments, I'm withdrawing from the argument, mostly because it's filled with the same kind of myths I've had to debunk in offline real life conversations for years now and it's just plain frustrating. Nothing against you, personally, this is just more of the same ol' stuff for me.

Fortunately, there's plenty of material out there documenting the key differences between the groups you're talking about that you can find.

Sin Studly
06-13-2007, 06:25 AM
To put it simply ; Americans today think that Japs and Chinks are hard workers and good at maths, as opposed to thinking that they were probably the guy who stole their car radio four years ago.

Slitheads don't need the kind governmental help finding employment that is extended to blacks and hispanics. If there was a kind of affirmative action that helped them get low premiums on their car insurance, then it'd be a different matter.

TBD
06-13-2007, 02:27 PM
There already is affirmative action for black people with their complete overrepresentation in the media. They get all the token minority spots.

JohnnyNemesis
06-13-2007, 03:31 PM
They get all the token minority spots.

*bangs head against desk repeatedly until I'm a bloody pulp*

Okay. NOW I'm gone.

TBD
06-13-2007, 04:08 PM
African Americans are highly overrepresented in media. The representations might be negative and stereotypically racist, however it doesn't change the fact they are highly overrepresented, especially in relation to Hispanics and Asians.

Mart2Play
06-21-2007, 08:36 PM
Oooooh...i hate affirmative action with a passion!
We all know that in South Africa we had Apartheid....and now 13 years later the minority white population(9%) are still being punished. Now i understand why the older generation should pay for what they did back then.....but why me? I was 9 when Apartheid ended 13 years ago! Yet it is the white youth of South Africa that has to pay....its like going to prison for someone elses crime!
It was impossible for me to find permanent work or to get accepted into Universaty because of affirmative action.
Thats the reason i am in the UK now....because this country respects me and values my skills more then my OWN country.

Affirmative action in South Africa has caused a lot of racial hatred....a hatred that is not suppose to be there 13 years after Apartheid....i thought Nelson Mandela fought for EQUALITY!!!
For the younger white generation of South Africa affirmatibe action feels more like revenge for something they did not do.

adombomb222
06-21-2007, 09:15 PM
I donít know, what really bothers me is that under educated people gain from this. I mean there was a story a while back that I remember where an under educated African-American was given a police position instead of a highly educated white person. Also affirmative action gives people better chances to get into better colleges, even if there are more educated and more deserving people who apply. There are flaws with it, I think that if they were worked out itíd be a better system, however I do like the class idea.

Sin Studly
06-21-2007, 10:23 PM
Oooooh...i hate affirmative action with a passion!
We all know that in South Africa we had Apartheid....and now 13 years later the minority white population(9%) are still being punished. Now i understand why the older generation should pay for what they did back then.....but why me? I was 9 when Apartheid ended 13 years ago! Yet it is the white youth of South Africa that has to pay....its like going to prison for someone elses crime!
It was impossible for me to find permanent work or to get accepted into Universaty because of affirmative action.
Thats the reason i am in the UK now....because this country respects me and values my skills more then my OWN country.

Affirmative action in South Africa has caused a lot of racial hatred....a hatred that is not suppose to be there 13 years after Apartheid....i thought Nelson Mandela fought for EQUALITY!!!
For the younger white generation of South Africa affirmatibe action feels more like revenge for something they did not do.

lol your president is a kaffir.

adombomb222
06-21-2007, 10:26 PM
lol ur president is a kaffir lol

I don't get it.

HornyPope
06-21-2007, 11:58 PM
This message has been deleted by JohnnyNemesis (http://offspring.com/forums/member.php?u=2110). Reason: bah, said i was done.


That's why you're a lover, not a fighter, Ricito.

Sin Studly
06-22-2007, 12:09 AM
I don't get it.

His president is a kaffir who quotes wikipedia in presidential debates lololol.

RickyCrack
06-22-2007, 12:19 AM
oh noes! white [male] people have to compete with other races?>: ( It's still the top cream of the crop of the minority lists that would only get jobs if companies only hired the minimum amount of blacks/hispanics/asians/women. So therefore it's simple statistics that these hired people would be better than another white male hire, unless you believe that any white d00d can do a job better than all black people.

Sin Studly
06-22-2007, 12:20 AM
Would any white man quote wikipedia in presidential debates?