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Thomas
08-22-2007, 09:35 PM
good bassists so fucking hard to find?

I just want one that can slap well and the only one I know of is one I have no way of getting into contact with.

You'd think that with bass being easy and all, finding a good one wouldn't be hard.

Has anyone else had this sort of trouble finding musicians?

coke_a_holic
08-22-2007, 09:45 PM
If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.

I picked up bass because no one else plays it here. Then I decided that I love to play bass, but I hate playing bass in bands, which is where the issue comes in:

Bassists are underrated so much that they're dying out. Everyone wants to be the lead guitarist or the singer or even the drummer. The bass is really important, but because no one appreciates the value of it, it's neglected.

So now I just record everything myself, and I suggest you get a guitarist and tell him to start learning the bass. EVERY BAND NEEDS A BASSIST AND THERE ARE VERY FEW BASSISTS AROUND.

SplinterByMyOwnDesign
08-23-2007, 03:45 AM
Not many bassists get love... Really good drummers are hard to find too. Guitarists are so simple, why did I ever pick up a guitar :( lol

Thomas
08-23-2007, 06:25 AM
I've been thinking about taking up guitar or bass, but that would make live shows impossible if I was my own bassist.


btw, I think the sounds a bass can make are about a billion times better than anything a guitar can do. Ohhhhhh, how I love that slap.

Iamstupid
08-23-2007, 07:58 AM
Yeah, bassists are a rare commodity, that's a pity :( . Drummers are also kinda rare.
When I picked up the guitar, I hesitated between this and picking up the bass, but I stuck with the guitar, because I thought that my arms are maybe a bit little for the bass. I wonder if wasn't wrong now.
BTW, I know a bassist, a good one, but she lives a little far from your country :rolleyes:



But I think the hardest thing to found is some musicians whom like the same music as you. That's impossible or almost. Anyone agree with this, or am I the only one to have trouble with that ?

Wouli
08-23-2007, 11:26 AM
When I picked up the guitar, I hesitated between this and picking up the bass, but I stuck with the guitar, because I thought that my arms are maybe a bit little for the bass. I wonder if wasn't wrong now.


Quoted for truth :D



BTW, I know a bassist, a good one, but she lives a little far from your country :rolleyes:


I want to meet her !!! :p


... for come back at this topic subject, I'm agreed with Thomas, but as bassist myself, how can people want to play bass even though most of the bands neglect bass in their songs ... and that it's rare to find bands with good bass lines and not fucking sleeping bass lines which are all similar !!!
Bass is so important in music, but a lot of people seems to care about it ... :( That's a pity ...

mrconeman
08-23-2007, 11:48 AM
Has anyone else had this sort of trouble finding musicians?
I find singers much harder to find, thats partly why I recently started singing. I know like 10 decent bassists as good close friends, one of them is absolutely amazing, brilliant slap player, but I hate funk guitar, so we could never really bond musically properly, because while we like alot of the same stuff, I wouldn't want to waste his talents.


Bassists are underrated so much that they're dying out. Everyone wants to be the lead guitarist or the singer or even the drummer. The bass is really important, but because no one appreciates the value of it, it's neglected.

So now I just record everything myself, and I suggest you get a guitarist and tell him to start learning the bass. EVERY BAND NEEDS A BASSIST AND THERE ARE VERY FEW BASSISTS AROUND.
Among non musicians this is unfortunately true, and non musicians are the ones who well...become musicians and thus the bass is avoided alot of the time.



btw, I think the sounds a bass can make are about a billion times better than anything a guitar can do. Ohhhhhh, how I love that slap.
I think slapping is probably the most over-rated musical technique next to playing fast on a guitar, but it can be done to great effect on the guitar as well as the bass.

nieh
08-23-2007, 12:52 PM
EVERY BAND NEEDS A BASSIST AND THERE ARE VERY FEW BASSISTS AROUND.

Sleater Kinney never had a bass player. And now they're broken up. I guess that proves your point.

T-6005
08-23-2007, 01:03 PM
good bassists so fucking hard to find?

I just want one that can slap well and the only one I know of is one I have no way of getting into contact with.

You'd think that with bass being easy and all, finding a good one wouldn't be hard.

Has anyone else had this sort of trouble finding musicians?

Yeah, everyone's got trouble finding musicians. Shit, I haven't even jammed with anyone in near on a year now.

However, I do have a problem with you calling the bass easy. That's just ignorant.

Iamstupid
08-23-2007, 01:03 PM
I want to meet her !!! :p

Nah, I don't think so, you'd more likely want to kill her. It's very hard to resist at the urge to kill her.


... for come back at this topic subject, I'm agreed with Thomas, but as bassist myself, how can people want to play bass even though most of the bands neglect bass in their songs ... and that it's rare to find bands with good bass lines and not fucking sleeping bass lines which are all similar !!!
Bass is so important in music, but a lot of people seems to care about it ... :( That's a pity ...

Maybe the key is to start a band where everyone can play a role in, where someone can come with an idea, a riff to work on and then the band could all work around it, to find a way to make it better and better, to write the lines of every instrument so as not to "break" the beauty of the former riff proposed at beginning.

Well, I'm maybe saying bullshits (that's an habit now), because I never been in a band and I don't know how it works inside a band. And I reckon that every band write his music the way they want.


Among non musicians this is unfortunately true, and non musicians are the ones who well...become musicians and thus the bass is avoided alot of the time.

Yeah it's true.

The problem maybe come from the fact that the bass is a bit underrated compared to the guitar (particulary the lead one) or the drums.

coke_a_holic
08-23-2007, 01:12 PM
If Primus were a more popular band, there'd be more bass players. Les Claypool tricked me into thinking being a bassist would be fun.

Wouli
08-23-2007, 01:14 PM
Nah, I don't think so, you'd more likely want to kill her. It's very hard to resist at the urge to kill her.


Why that ? I'm sure she's friendly and very intelligent :D




Maybe the key is to start a band where everyone can play a role in, where someone can come with an idea, a riff to work on and then the band could all work around it, to find a way to make it better and better, to write the lines of every instrument so as not to "break" the beauty of the former riff proposed at beginning.

Yeah, but after there's always the same problem ... to find people who want the same thinkg you wanna do in a band, who likes same music as you, and others stuff similar ...



Well, I'm maybe saying bullshits (that's an habit now)

Agreed

nieh
08-23-2007, 01:20 PM
Yeah, unfortunately the vast majority of bassists and basslines out there are throughly average. No one knows how to deal with having a good bassist, and the rest of the band is never willing to give up any of their own glory, so they end up just having them just play root notes most of the time. As underrated as the instrument is, I like it when bands are able to manage things with abnormal line-ups. Why not have two guitarists and no bass? Why not have three people playing baritone guitars instead of guitar/bass? Why not have three drummers and a group of cheerleaders singing gang vocals? Why not have two bass players and one guitarist instead of the other way around? That last one is actually the only one of those I haven't already heard, sadly.

coke_a_holic
08-23-2007, 01:32 PM
My friend told me about a band called Hans And Sushi that only had two bassists and no guitarist (one played six string bass). He is the only person who knows who they are, apparently, as google searches bring up nothing.

My old band only had two guitarists; the other guitarist is now the only guitarist in my new band (which is who I'm bitter about being the bassist for) and he's also the kid who knows about the double bass-playing band.

Nieh: I saw a band a few months ago that was really cool. They're called Cascade In Blue and they have: a double-bass player, a bass guitarist/singer, a guitarist/singer, a drummer, and a guy who plays trombone, piano, and something else that I don't remember. They were really cool and they played kinda weird indie mixed with something.

Iamstupid
08-23-2007, 01:35 PM
Why that ? I'm sure she's friendly and very intelligent :D

You thought wrong :rolleyes:


Yeah, but after there's always the same problem ... to find people who want the same thinkg you wanna do in a band, who likes same music as you, and others stuff similar ...

It's right. It's maybe the most difficult to find people playing and instrument and liking the same music as you. Once you found them (if you're very lucky), yoi can start this everyone-can-come-with-something method to write songs. But it's really hard, and the guys/girl have to be a bit motivated.
And, now that I came to think of it, it's totally impossible to find people with the same ideas as yours. Totally. Or you'll have to create clones. The only thing you can do is to find people who have some ideas which are the nearest possible from yours. Then, you can try. You also need to be in good relationship with 'em. And the problem is that nowadays people seek guitarists/bassists/drumers/singers by making publicity.



Yeah, unfortunately the vast majority of bassists and basslines out there are throughly average. No one knows how to deal with having a good bassist, and the rest of the band is never willing to give up any of their own glory, so they end up just having them just play root notes most of the time. As underrated as the instrument is, I like it when bands are able to manage things with abnormal line-ups. Why not have two guitarists and no bass? Why not have three people playing baritone guitars instead of guitar/bass? Why not have three drummers and a group of cheerleaders singing gang vocals? Why not have two bass players and one guitarist instead of the other way around? That last one is actually the only one of those I haven't already heard, sadly.

Hey, it'd be pretty interesting to hear a band with two bassists or that kind of stuff !

Wouli
08-23-2007, 01:37 PM
At the music day, the band who were playing after mine was composed with 2 bassists, 1 guitarist, 1 drummer et 1 singer and they play a sort of cover of Californication from the Red Hot Chili Peppers, that's was really interresting !

Iamstupid
08-23-2007, 01:48 PM
Yeah I can imagine, it must had been pretty interesting

It'd be cool too, to see a band where evryone have a solo to play. Like that, everyone have a "big role" during the song. They wouldn't be any under and over rated instruments.

nieh
08-23-2007, 01:49 PM
Nieh: I saw a band a few months ago that was really cool. They're called Cascade In Blue and they have: a double-bass player, a bass guitarist/singer, a guitarist/singer, a drummer, and a guy who plays trombone, piano, and something else that I don't remember. They were really cool and they played kinda weird indie mixed with something.
Whenever I hear "double-bass" I always assume it's in reference to drums. That sounds awesome though, I'll see if I can find them on myspace or something once I get home.


Hey, it'd be pretty interesting to hear a band with two bassists or that kind of stuff !

The bands I was referencing were Sleater Kinney, Viva Death and Bling Kong, respectively in case you want to check them out.

It'd be cool too, to see a band where evryone have a solo to play. Like that, everyone have a "big role" during the song. They wouldn't be any under and over rated instruments.
Someone needs to start listening to jazz.

Iamstupid
08-23-2007, 01:57 PM
The bands I was referencing were Sleater Kinney, Viva Death and Bling Kong, respectively in case you want to check them out.

I'll check them :) .


Someone needs to start listening to jazz.

Yeah. Jazz invented the concept before me ;)
But I just wanna clear up I didn't mean that the fictive-band I talked about on and on through this thread have to play jazz but something like punk (for instance, I could have said something else like punk rock :D ), but where everyone play his solo

EDIT : I checked them. I liked Viva Death, Bling Kong was really interesting, I peculiary liked the 3 drummers, and it felt good to see a band-girl with Sleater Kinney, even though I didn't like that much this style of music. But they play very well the guitar and the drums. But I think that a bassist will be great in it, though.
That's just my opinion, and it doesn't mean nothing, I'm not a professional or whatever.

opivy21
08-23-2007, 04:05 PM
A few really good bands that I can think of didn't have a bass. Dos, a collaboration between Mike Watt and Kira Roessler (Black Flag) is just the two of them with basses. A really cool local band (with a stupid name) called JT and the Blame just has a bass and drums, but the bassist plays like a guitarist.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=3002067

Professor Chaos
08-23-2007, 07:35 PM
However, I do have a problem with you calling the bass easy. That's just ignorant.

It is easy.



But yeah, I have a friend who plays drums, and I play both bass and guitar. And we can't find anyone that plays either that's open minded enough to play anything besides punk. Sadface.

mrconeman
08-24-2007, 04:27 AM
It is easy.

Ignorance is bliss, right?
Sorry, but it's easy to play anything, badly. Saying any instrument is easy is a sweeping generalization based on either what you've heard, or umm, possibly playing nothing but root notes on it because you don't know anything else it's capable of?

Go listen to some Victor Wooten and tell me thats easy, please.

Professor Chaos
08-24-2007, 09:25 AM
I'm not a fucking retard when it comes to bass, trust me. I've been playing it for about five years.
Of course, that might be why it's so easy.


And uh, I know who Victor Wooten is, I've been listening to him for a while now.
Marcus Miller > Victor Wooten.

T-6005
08-24-2007, 04:59 PM
No instrument is truly easy, buddy. Even the bass.

The idea of playing the bass might be easy, but the bass requires more to transcend the expected than most other instruments. Guitars have a multitude of effects that can be used to easily make yourself sound proficient, whereas bass has relatively few.

Even in that short statement, I've gotten rather far afield from that statement. If you take instruments perfectly in stride, then they're never really difficult. Of course, if you're normal like the rest of us, you'll find that you struggle with the instrument at times, which is when you find out what we mean by it not being easy. I'm sure you get past it eventually, like most of us do (eventually, note) but that doesn't make the instrument easy for all that, no matter your current proficiency in it.

I guess you just happen to be one of those who takes the instrument perfectly in stride, you amazing musician you.

coke_a_holic
08-24-2007, 05:16 PM
I've heard Roger play the bass before, he's fantastic. He finds it easy. I fail to see why everyone's giving him a hard time about it. I found it easy, too. I had been playing guitar for 2 years and I decided to take bass lessons and found it a pretty easy instrument to pick up.

mrconeman
08-24-2007, 06:47 PM
I'm not a fucking retard when it comes to bass, trust me. I've been playing it for about five years.
Of course, that might be why it's so easy.
.

O.k. So you aren't retarded, you're just ignorant. That's exactly why you find it easy, y'know, those 5 whole years of practice, of course you find it easy, but saying any instrument is easy off the bat is just stupid.

Llamas
08-25-2007, 03:54 AM
Yeah, unfortunately the vast majority of bassists and basslines out there are throughly average. No one knows how to deal with having a good bassist, and the rest of the band is never willing to give up any of their own glory, so they end up just having them just play root notes most of the time. As underrated as the instrument is, I like it when bands are able to manage things with abnormal line-ups. Why not have two guitarists and no bass? Why not have three people playing baritone guitars instead of guitar/bass? Why not have three drummers and a group of cheerleaders singing gang vocals? Why not have two bass players and one guitarist instead of the other way around? That last one is actually the only one of those I haven't already heard, sadly.

I'm so with you. I really love when I see band lineups that aren't typical. I once saw a band that didn't have a bass, but instead they had a fricken SOUSAPHONE! I lol'd, but it was actually pretty cool. It didn't work that well with their style of music, but I actually started thinking how great it would be if more bands tried using a sousaphone or a tuba. Baritones sound great, too, but aren't as low.

I also appreciate a band that knows how to use an upright bass instead of electric. They have a richer/fuller sound than upright, and I almost always prefer to hear an upright.


Ignorance is bliss, right?
Sorry, but it's easy to play anything, badly. Saying any instrument is easy is a sweeping generalization based on either what you've heard, or umm, possibly playing nothing but root notes on it because you don't know anything else it's capable of?

Go listen to some Victor Wooten and tell me thats easy, please.

There are two types of instruments: those that are easy to play but extremely hard to be GOOD at, and those that are extremely hard to learn, but once you get the basics, you sound pretty decent. More instruments are in the first category, including bass. Calling any instrument "easy" is stupid. I've been playing saxophone for 13 years, and it is definitely an instrument that's easy to play but hard to sound good on... you'll never, ever hear me call it an easy instrument, still.

Anyway, I agree with anyone who said to try having a band without a bassist if you're having so much trouble finding one. You don't HAVE to have one.

JoY
08-25-2007, 06:26 AM
Has anyone else had this sort of trouble finding musicians?

uh, yeah. I need two violinists, one contrabassist, a cymbalist & a clarinettist, who would want to play gypsy music to follow in our footsteps.

know any by any chance?

JoY
08-25-2007, 07:23 AM
Someone needs to start listening to jazz.

& gypsy.
if someone's up for it & it doesn't sound half bad, I'm prepared to give anyone a solo. dude, I'd be GLAD to give away a solo. at the end of the day I'm always sweating my goddamn butt off.


the whole bass-deal I saw everyone talking about;
it's kind of like sports. no one wants to be the goalie, especially not of an amature team. you're the last resort, the back up; if the entire team fucks up, if the whole band loses rhythm, guess who's expected to be the last one standing to save the entire performance; there's supposed to be you. you don't get to do the star-job, you don't get to do the solo's, you don't get to do the awesome tricks & the scoring, toying with the audience....

but that's where everyone's wrong & the only reason for this image, is that this planet is filled with egotistical, self-absorbed fuckwits.

put them on a playfield in the front & they wouldn't pass the ball if their life depended on it. put them in a band as leading instrument & they just won't give away an inch of their solo, no matter how bad they screw up. that's how you learn to point out those bastards; on the field & in a band.

I used to be a goalie. holy damn, if I kept the other team from scoring, I felt like I had scored myself. though it doesn't appear on the scoreboard, indirectly you anti-score for the opponent! \m/awesome\m/. I made it my specialty to make my slidings look as phenomenal as possible, impressing the audience & even my team & myself, even if I missed (which I did often enough). if my team sucked.. which there were days it definitely did.. I had to pick up the trash & undo their mistakes in the field by keeping the goal safe. & now comes my favourite part of all; if I didn't manage to do so, they blamed & got mad at me. well well, I corrected my dear teammates in the end. after all; "so.. who else of you girls wants to be goalie?" it's the dirty job, I tell you. but I loved it with every inch of me.

I also used to play third violin, which was a job I happily traded in my position as a first violin of a more shitty orchestra for. speaking of underrated & unappreciated; one note for every twenty the first violin part contained. every note I used the best piece of my bow for; the lower end for stronger & shorter notes, the upper end for more subtle notes & soft nuances. vibrato, a little extra here, a little less there.. I wanted my shitty part to not only contribute, but to almost carry the music of the whole damn orchestra.

maintaining rhythm, especially in a band consisting of a bunch of amatures, is an art. the worse the rest is, the better you have to be. & god, people dare to say it's EASY, just because you don't stand out so much & therefore they think you're not really doing much back there. d'you think it's easy to play in the background a totally different tune than the leading part? or to keep the music rhythmically together? to stay focussed, concentrated, passionate & motivated through all of this, while you're barely noticed??!

& the undertone, let's not forget about the deep, dark tone rhythmic instruments usually have & the mystery & beauty of it. pluck the goddamn thing like it's hardcore rock 'n roll & you conquer the audience, even with your shitty part. nothing sweeps you more of your feet, than that characteristic, swinging rhythm in every single song, whatever it's produced by.

to conclude this tirade; never have I had an easier part to play than that of the solist. I own the band, they follow me with every step & misstep I make, sweet souls. but as soon as I get tired, as soon as I make a single mistake, as soon as they refuse to do whatever I had in mind, they fully, totally, completely, utterly own my fucking ass.

JoY
08-25-2007, 07:48 AM
I really hope someone will take the effort to read that long, heart-felt ramble. I am totally sitting here behind my computer with a red face, tongue hanging from the corner of my mouth.

anyone may disagree with me, I've never had a problem with that, but you'll have to bring in a damn good argument to make my defense mechanism for unappreciated jobs, positions & in particular instruments go down. God knows I just hate those China-sized ego's, who think the level of difficulty, responsibility & respect is proportional with the amount of spotlight. that's why I'm destined for spotlight; I need the position from which I can give anyone who loves it too much & who loves himself too much a good whooping. ;p

Thomas
08-25-2007, 11:10 AM
uh, yeah. I need two violinists, one contrabassist, a cymbalist & a clarinettist, who would want to play gypsy music to follow in our footsteps.

know any by any chance?


Yes, actually. I know some pretty strange people.



Anyway, I agree with anyone who said to try having a band without a bassist if you're having so much trouble finding one. You don't HAVE to have one.


Well, I want the music of this new band to be really bass-heavy (with lotsa funk in it, ya know?) and it wouldn't be the same without one. Actually, I kinda want the bass to be the prominent voice of the instrumentalists in the band.

JoY
08-25-2007, 11:29 AM
tell that to any bassist & I bet it'd make it a whole lot more attractive. you really have to know how to balance the instruments if you want to experiment with that, though.

about the strange people you know; happen to know a cymbalist? if so, jackpot!

with my background it's really not difficult to find the other instruments. hell, I have at least 5 of each among my friends. the problem is they'd have to be a member of my sorority/fraternity, so.. *sigh* well, take the image of the average American frat boy, or sorority chick.. Dutchify that image, which would make it only slightly less bad...
now imagine them with a classical instrument.

done yet?

pictured it already?

that's kind of the problem.

Thomas
08-25-2007, 12:37 PM
Yeah, you completely lost me. I can't picture that at all.


And do you mean a percussionist to play cymbals for you? Because considering how weird most drummers are, finding one shouldn't be TOO hard...

Llamas
08-25-2007, 01:11 PM
Joy, what kind of cymbal player are you looking for? Crash cymbals?

JoY
08-25-2007, 06:06 PM
And do you mean a percussionist to play cymbals for you? Because considering how weird most drummers are, finding one shouldn't be TOO hard...


Joy, what kind of cymbal player are you looking for? Crash cymbals?

oh, no no, I don't think we're on the same page. :/
I was talking about a cymbalon. drums are close to worthless in gypsy music.

http://www.digischool.nl/mu/leerlingen/mt/instrumenten/plaatjes/cymb1.gif

it has 125-plus strings. it requires a pro, but if not that, it requires at least a damn good pianist. which we've got right now, but who knows how long that will last. :/
I think you will understand my problem & concern, taking one glance at the instrument (since you don't seem to be very familliar with it & it's about as complicated, if not more, as it looks). there's close to no one outside of Hungaria & Romenia who plays that damn instrument, but it's pretty vital for gypsy music. hell, the guy we found originally comes from Romenia, & even he says he wouldn't have touched the instrument otherwise, because he's actually a pianist.

nieh
08-25-2007, 06:31 PM
...there so many songs about rainbows
And what's on the other side?
Rainbows are visions, but only illusions,
And rainbows have nothing to hide.
So we've been told and some choose to believe it
I know they're wrong, wait and see.
Someday we'll find it, the rainbow connection,
The lovers, the dreamers and me.

JoY
08-25-2007, 06:50 PM
I never knew that song, untill I listened to it just now after reading this post..
& not too long after came my roommate to tell me to keep it quiet, which is logical at....
3:50 AM.

oh shit, I should get some sleep!

Thomas
08-26-2007, 09:00 AM
oh, no no, I don't think we're on the same page. :/
I was talking about a cymbalon. drums are close to worthless in gypsy music.

http://www.digischool.nl/mu/leerlingen/mt/instrumenten/plaatjes/cymb1.gif

it has 125-plus strings. it requires a pro, but if not that, it requires at least a damn good pianist. which we've got right now, but who knows how long that will last. :/
I think you will understand my problem & concern, taking one glance at the instrument (since you don't seem to be very familliar with it & it's about as complicated, if not more, as it looks). there's close to no one outside of Hungaria & Romenia who plays that damn instrument, but it's pretty vital for gypsy music. hell, the guy we found originally comes from Romenia, & even he says he wouldn't have touched the instrument otherwise, because he's actually a pianist.

Wow. Yeah, we were way off. Um, yeah, I don't think I know anyone who can play that. I know one kinda crazy girl who can play the harp, but I don't know how similar those two instruments are.

JoY
08-29-2007, 12:12 AM
they concept looks similar, but it's easier to make the transition as a pianist to playing this instrument, than when you play harp. as long as you keep realising with every key on a piano there's a hammer inside hitting a single snare. with the little sticks that lie on top you hit the snares, one at the time. there are three areas (left, middle, right) that have different chords 'cause of the way the snares are placed in different heights. the broad part, that's the closest to where you sit, consists the lower snares, the more narrow part the higher tones. so it's like you're sitting on the left end of a piano, playing it from the side. but then you also have to work side ways.

so it's like a massive, complicated piano with all the snares open to see, layed out side ways, played with two fingers, except those are two sticks with which you hit the snares directly, instead of pushing a key.

they sometimes replace the instrument in gypsy with a piano, mostly in West European bands, because there are not many good cymbalists out there, especially not in Western countries, so in that case the piano offers more possibilities. also, it's just more recognizable & popular in the ear of the audience. besides those things, everyone has a piano & no one has a cymbalon & dragging the enormous heavy thing with you all the time is incredibly tiring & unpractical. cymbalon is more characteristic, though. a special touch you can't really do without.

it's kind of difficult to explain. I have a Romanian song (I think), that we don't play by the way, but in which you can hear the cymbalon pretty well. http://download.yousendit.com/39C356D62D075D57
the snare instrument in the background that doesn't really sound like anything else, that's the one. I'll try to find you a file with a solo, but right now I'm in a hurry.

oh wait, found another good example;
http://download.yousendit.com/71C8644B57AA2EDD