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Jakebert
01-27-2008, 10:31 AM
I'm doing a paper where I have to non-biasedly discuss both pro-illegal opinions and anti-illegal opinions. Basically, I have to compare the arguments and explain where they differ in the types of appeals, ect. that they're using.

In doing so, I realized that I have no fucking idea what my opinion of illegal immigration is. While I do believe that people sneaking into the country are breaking a law, and in some ways are hurting our country, I also think treating them like animals is incredibly wrong. I also agree that if you want to live here, you should have to at least know english as some level of proficiency, but at the same time, I disagree with the idea that you should completely abandon you heritage. I also really wish that conservatives would quit with the endless hyperbole and saying that Mexico is trying to take over the Southwest. (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25920) I guess I have no idea what I believe in this issue. Your thoughts?

Also, something I don't get: why the fuck do conservatives go after illegals with a massive amount of passion, yet completely ignore the fact that businesses keep hiring them? Why do corporations get a free pass to hire them, but the people that get hired are horrible scum?

XYlophonetreeZ
01-27-2008, 12:03 PM
It's an issue that I debate myself on as well, but I just wanted to say that I'm so, so furiously against mass deportation of illegal immigrants that I can hardly talk about it rationally. It would undermine the entire purpose of our justice system.

Llamas
01-27-2008, 04:10 PM
My take is that immigration laws need to change. It's harder to get into the US than pretty much any other country, even after all the shit in the UK. It's fucking ridiculous. People have been denied coming to the US solely because they've been to the middle east at some point in their lives. And becoming a legal citizen... well that's just a fucking joke. Most born and raised Americans can't pass that test. It's sick.

I don't think the problem is in how illegals are treated; the problem is in how hard it is to be legal in this country.

TBD
01-27-2008, 05:27 PM
Also, something I don't get: why the fuck do conservatives go after illegals with a massive amount of passion, yet completely ignore the fact that businesses keep hiring them? Why do corporations get a free pass to hire them, but the people that get hired are horrible scum?

I've heard way more attacks on the corporations that hire illegal immigrants compared to people attacking actual illegal immigrants. I don't think most people actually blame the illegal immigrants for taking whats available to them to survive.

We need to look at the problems with Mexico's economy and hope for it to get better in order to fully stop the illegal immigrant problem in this country, why the fuck is there a third world country directly next to the richest country in the world?

It is not practical to deport all the illegal immigrants, but I do believe any illegal immigrant who is found guilty of a misdemeanor or a felony should be deported immediately.

I do believe we should make English the official language however.

Jakebert
01-27-2008, 05:49 PM
My take is that immigration laws need to change. It's harder to get into the US than pretty much any other country, even after all the shit in the UK. It's fucking ridiculous. People have been denied coming to the US solely because they've been to the middle east at some point in their lives. And becoming a legal citizen... well that's just a fucking joke. Most born and raised Americans can't pass that test. It's sick.

I don't think the problem is in how illegals are treated; the problem is in how hard it is to be legal in this country.

I understand most of the rules and regulations, but I do really hate the time frame it takes to become legal, and the fact that you have to pay. I'm willing to bet if there was no money involved, that would cut down.

And TBD, yeah corporations do get mentioned, but barely by the conversative base that's using illegal immigration as it's core issue. With them, the whole thing is about demonizing the illegals themselves.

Llamas
01-27-2008, 06:49 PM
So you understand not allowing people to come visit the US who were in the middle east when they were 7 years old? And you understand having a number of questions on the citizenship test that ask things like if you've ever been affiliated with the nazi party and if you support the idea of communism, and if you answer yes to any of these questions, you'll be denied citizenship, and if you're caught lying, you'll also be denied? And you understand having questions on the exam like "who said 'speak softly but carry a big stick'?" and other mundane questions?

I honestly can't understand why our system is so retarded. And oh yeah, if you fail the test the first time, you have to pay several hundred dollars again to retake it.

Sidewinder
01-27-2008, 07:11 PM
It's an issue that I debate myself on as well, but I just wanted to say that I'm so, so furiously against mass deportation of illegal immigrants that I can hardly talk about it rationally. It would undermine the entire purpose of our justice system.
The argument would be that as they're not US citizens/legal residents of any sort, they don't technically have any sort or rights to our justice.


I honestly have no idea where I stand. I think I've mentioned before that my town is 60+% Hispanic, and there are easily numerous illegals. The cops don't do anything, though, because by not deporting them the cops get more support from investigations etc.

I don't think that people should come in, try so hard whether legally or illegally, and try to say how much better Mexico is than the U.S. It's ridiculous/maddening to hear people do that.

I don't suppose I've helped you with the issue. I guess I'd have to say I'm against it because of all the gang activity, violence, and other stuff I've seen that a lot of is created because of illegals.

Jakebert
01-27-2008, 07:26 PM
So you understand not allowing people to come visit the US who were in the middle east when they were 7 years old? And you understand having a number of questions on the citizenship test that ask things like if you've ever been affiliated with the nazi party and if you support the idea of communism, and if you answer yes to any of these questions, you'll be denied citizenship, and if you're caught lying, you'll also be denied? And you understand having questions on the exam like "who said 'speak softly but carry a big stick'?" and other mundane questions?

I honestly can't understand why our system is so retarded. And oh yeah, if you fail the test the first time, you have to pay several hundred dollars again to retake it.

Notice how I said "most"?

The Middle East thing is obviously BS, but as for the test questions, while they make no sense now, at one time they did serve some sort of point, even as dumb as the communism one is.

As for lying, yeah, if you get caught lying on most forms, whatever/whoever you're filling out the form for dismisses you without further questioning. I think that's a pretty standard procedure.

wheelchairman
01-27-2008, 09:04 PM
The argument would be that as they're not US citizens/legal residents of any sort, they don't technically have any sort or rights to our justice.


Well there are other institutions that try and guarantee things like basic human rights (the UN). Furthermore the United States doesn't usually on it's own soil violate the basic rights of non-citizens (that's why they have Guantanamo).

Jakebert, it's amazing how much people focus on the illegal immigrants. And not on the people who create the market for illegal immigration (the people who hire them.) Although I'm not sure what steps the government takes against these companies, one thing is sure is that the government focuses much much more on illegal immigrants.

But when it comes down to it. The issue of illegal immigrants boils down to, "why care?" They're not taking any jobs you would want to do. And the thing about English, it's not a language you pick up immediately. I've lived in Denmark for 6 years now and I still have an accent.

Also it's kinda funny that they think this wall will stop illegal immigration.

In reality it's one of those things we need to handle in a more practical manner. Like making sure that those who make it over here are able to survive and thrive (and in turn, avoid turning towards a life of crime lol). Instead of wasting a ton of cash on a useless wall. But who knows, perhaps a wall might lower the number of immigrants.

Llamas
01-27-2008, 09:26 PM
Notice how I said "most"?

The Middle East thing is obviously BS, but as for the test questions, while they make no sense now, at one time they did serve some sort of point, even as dumb as the communism one is.

As for lying, yeah, if you get caught lying on most forms, whatever/whoever you're filling out the form for dismisses you without further questioning. I think that's a pretty standard procedure.

Whether or not they used to have a purpose, my point was that it needs to change and it's incredibly terrible. The worst part is, they're trying to add MORE questions about communism/nazi. There are already 3-4 for each, and they want to add more. Seems like the wrong way to go.

And denying people citizenship because they believe in communism? It's not against the law to do so. If I can believe in communism, why can't someone who moves here from another country? It's so stupid, especially because you'd have to lie about your (rather pointless) belief in order to be accepted, and if they find out you were affiliated with communist stuff in your home country, you're screwed. Yeah, lying on a form is bad, but in this case, the situation is fucked up.

wheelchairman
01-27-2008, 09:28 PM
Naturally I think the obvious thing people do is lie about it, if they had any communist affiliations.

The Nazi one though, it's only a matter of years before there won't be any people left who can say they were affiliated with the nazis.

XYlophonetreeZ
01-27-2008, 09:37 PM
Also it's kinda funny that they think this wall will stop illegal immigration.
Yeah. Notice how Republicans never, ever mention Cubans when talking about illegal immigration. That's because (a) lots of Cubans vote Republican, and (b), if there's one thing they hate more than illegal immigrants, it's commies. As if they honestly believe that the conditions that many Mexican immigrants are fleeing from are any better than Cuba. I guess the point I was trying to make before that digression is that if Cubans come over here illegally while risking their lives on tiny little boats, so will Mexicans. Or they'll find some other way. It's not gonna stop it.

AAE, our justice system is more than just a justice system, it's a justice philosophy. If our justice system is meant to be an example for free, democratic government, it should be championed everywhere and shouldn't be compromised by loopholes like that. And wheelchairman's point was a good one too. I've always believed that a free government should never patronize or punish people, even the most heinous criminals. The purposes of the criminal justice system should be rehabilitation and public safety. Those who neither pose a threat to public safety nor need to be rehabilitated should not be removed from our land. Plus, mass deportation of more than a small number of dangerous criminals is impractical and costly as hell. I'm not saying just make them citizens in blanket fashion because that's even more unfair to those waiting to become legal immigrants. But if they've got a clean record since coming here, I do believe they should have the right to get in the back of the line to become legal citizens.

sKratch
01-27-2008, 09:57 PM
But when it comes down to it. The issue of illegal immigrants boils down to, "why care?" They're not taking any jobs you would want to do. And the thing about English, it's not a language you pick up immediately. I've lived in Denmark for 6 years now and I still have an accent.


There are numerous hidden costs associated with illegal immigrants, such as emergency medical care and public schooling for their children. First day of classes tomorrow though so I don't feel like elaborating and such.

Llamas, I get the impression that a lot of the examples you provide are the result of personal encounters with people who had the problems you described, because they seem very marginal. In any case, I think that the citizenship test should be rather difficult. And the high fee makes sense, because it deters people from taking the test over and over and over again. Plus, there are costs involved in making the test.

Llamas
01-27-2008, 10:06 PM
There are numerous hidden costs associated with illegal immigrants, such as emergency medical care and public schooling for their children. First day of classes tomorrow though so I don't feel like elaborating and such.

Llamas, I get the impression that a lot of the examples you provide are the result of personal encounters with people who had the problems you described, because they seem very marginal. In any case, I think that the citizenship test should be rather difficult. And the high fee makes sense, because it deters people from taking the test over and over and over again. Plus, there are costs involved in making the test.

No, actually there aren't any people I've encountered with such problems. I had to take the test, though, in one of my TESL classes, and it blew my mind how ridiculous it is.

And I don't see why our citizenship should be so much harder and more expensive than in other popular countries.

wheelchairman
01-27-2008, 10:11 PM
There are numerous hidden costs associated with illegal immigrants, such as emergency medical care and public schooling for their children. First day of classes tomorrow though so I don't feel like elaborating and such.



Oh I was aware of those costs when I made my point. Really I just view it like prostitution, it's gonna keep on happening no matter how hard we stamp it out.

(like in Saudi Arabia where you get to marry your prostitute for a half hour).

Llamas
01-27-2008, 10:16 PM
Oh I was aware of those costs when I made my point. Really I just view it like prostitution, it's gonna keep on happening no matter how hard we stamp it out.

I greatly agree with this statement. This is why I believe it makes much more sense to try to make as much legal as is safe and logical, rather than just trying to get rid of all the illegals.

BREAK
01-30-2008, 09:36 AM
It's a red herring issue, something for the powerful to use so you have someone to blame our nation's problems on besides (correctly) them. Don't fall for it.

Meg
01-31-2008, 12:21 PM
Just found this:



Welcome to America
A Somalian arrives in Minneapolis as a new immigrant to the United States .

He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says, "Thank you Mr. American for letting me in this country , giving me housing, food stamps, free medical care, and free education!" The passerby says, "You are mistaken, I am Mexican." The man goes on and encounters another passerby. " Thank you for having such a beautiful country here in America !" The person says, "I not American, I Vietnamese."

The new arrival walks further, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand and says, "Thank you for the wonderful America!" That person puts up his hand and says, "I am from Middle East , I am not American!"

He finally sees a nice lady and asks, "Are you an American?" She says , "No, I am from Africa!" puzzled, he asks her, "Where are all the Americans?"

The African lady checks her watch and says..."Probably at work!!

Not Ozymandias
02-12-2008, 12:09 PM
Yeah, that's fuckin' hilarious.



What is funny is that the only Republican who isn't anti-immigration (oops, I mean "illegal" immigration ;)) is winning the nomination running away. It can't be any clearer that the only people who care passionately stopping immigration are fringe racists.

Llamas
02-12-2008, 02:33 PM
haha, that joke made me smile. I feel bad. :P

Moose
02-12-2008, 06:55 PM
Yeah, that's fuckin' hilarious.



What is funny is that the only Republican who isn't anti-immigration (oops, I mean "illegal" immigration ;)) is winning the nomination running away. It can't be any clearer that the only people who care passionately stopping immigration are fringe racists.

you're an idiot...it has to do with a lot of different things...but keep throwing that race card out there...thats the real reason behind it all...it has nothing to do with the fact that illegal immigrants are unknown and snuck into the country, hmm, illegally...or the fact that illegal immigrants are being taken advantage of everyday as well...it has nothing to do with that...just that politicians and everyone for protecting the borders is a racist...idiot.

Not Ozymandias
02-12-2008, 07:08 PM
Anyone who gets bent out of shape about illegal immigration is a racist. Sorry.

Moose
02-12-2008, 07:41 PM
i dont understand how people dont see the bad side off illegal immigrants entering the country...we dont know who they are, they could be criminals, or they could be working hard families...i dont see why there is a big deal over identifying who is who and deporting the ones who will harm the country and allowing the ones who give something positive to this country to stay.

but we wont know that until we identify who is who and end illegal immigration. democrats want to make all the illegal immigrants, legal and citizens because those are all votes for the democrats. it only has to do with power, not about what is right and good for the country. that doesnt bother anyone?...

you are basically slapping a lot of legal immigrants in the face by letting illegal immigrants get away with sneaking in and not paying taxes or getting away with crimes in other countries...its not about being racist, it is practically common sense...they came here illegally.

That_Guy91
02-12-2008, 08:38 PM
Actually, the majority of illegal immigrants in the country came here legally and just didn't leave when they were supposed to. And the whole "sort them out" thing is pretty impossible considering there are about 12 million illegal immigrants in the country, last time I heard.

wheelchairman
02-12-2008, 10:35 PM
i dont understand how people dont see the bad side off illegal immigrants entering the country...we dont know who they are, they could be criminals, or they could be working hard families...i dont see why there is a big deal over identifying who is who and deporting the ones who will harm the country and allowing the ones who give something positive to this country to stay.

but we wont know that until we identify who is who and end illegal immigration. democrats want to make all the illegal immigrants, legal and citizens because those are all votes for the democrats. it only has to do with power, not about what is right and good for the country. that doesnt bother anyone?...

you are basically slapping a lot of legal immigrants in the face by letting illegal immigrants get away with sneaking in and not paying taxes or getting away with crimes in other countries...its not about being racist, it is practically common sense...they came here illegally.
RAISE TAXES BY 25%!! OMG I BELIEVE IT!

DirtyYeso
02-13-2008, 09:58 AM
Well, I live in a country from which a lot of people emmigrate to the US and I can understarnd why they do it, but I don't think it's acceptable. I do think that the Illegal Immigration is a problem for the US. Education, Medical Care and criminality are the points I'm taking about, but on the other hand, americans need in some way the support of the low, working, immigrant class.

I have familiar who live illegaly in the US, and they are really hard-working people who just didn't see a future here and they risked their lives, left everything behind and are now living well. They wash cars and clean houses for living, in other words, honest workers serving the people with money.

The only thing is that people just emmigrate without any controls or messure and these whole thing is just too chaotic. Rather than stopping it completely they should try to formalize it (I don't know if the word exists, but I mean.. hmm, giving a legal chance to foreign people to show from their countries that they will do good).

Not Ozymandias
02-13-2008, 04:50 PM
i dont understand how people dont see the bad side off illegal immigrants entering the country...we dont know who they are, they could be criminals, or they could be working hard families...i dont see why there is a big deal over identifying who is who and deporting the ones who will harm the country and allowing the ones who give something positive to this country to stay.

but we wont know that until we identify who is who and end illegal immigration. democrats want to make all the illegal immigrants, legal and citizens because those are all votes for the democrats. it only has to do with power, not about what is right and good for the country. that doesnt bother anyone?...

you are basically slapping a lot of legal immigrants in the face by letting illegal immigrants get away with sneaking in and not paying taxes or getting away with crimes in other countries...its not about being racist, it is practically common sense...they came here illegally.
It isn't just Democrats, McCain and Bush wanted to give them amnesty too because they don't want the Republicans to lose Latinos forever like they did with black people. Politicians don't do things for altruistic reasons.
Though it's also right for the country. Americans are too spoiled and lazy, only immigrants (legal or not) are willing to do all the shitty jobs that are required to keep society going. We'd be fucked without them. Americans would sooner rob banks than mop floors.

I'm against illegal immigration, solely because it leaves open a hole for terrorists to get through. But it's like the 93rd thing I'm most concerned about and anybody that thinks bulding a giant wall around the country is in any way a priority or wants to throw people out of the country who aren't breaking any other laws is a fucking racist who's terrified of Hispanics.

Most illegals don't make enough money to be taxed anyway and most of them aren't criminals. Criminals tend to stick to less developed countries where there's less police.