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IamSam
02-28-2008, 12:08 PM
We were having a discussion in my 1960's class today about education and what us as current college students would like to see from the system. I said that I would like to see budgets of other branches of our country cut and that money funneled off into higher education. Someone scoffed at this idea and made a comment that I was socialist. What's wrong with socialism? For the past 50 years we've villanized socialism as a backwards method to running a country or anything, but why not accept some various nuances that could work?

Also, we talked about the elementary system. I have read this idea somewhere else and actually quite like it:

Why don't we take the system and turn it upside down? For the first years of elementary school we only teach languages: English, Spanish (or French), and Latin. Why Latin? Because Latin gives people who speak English a much better understanding of words and their roots, thereby helping them speak their 'own' language. At the same time the students will be learning basic writing skills. After those informative years, move onto math and more moderate writing skills. Then, say 5th through 7th grade, mainly focus on science's and upping the writing skills some more. The next step is to introduce critical thinking skills in the middle school and high school years. Classes that would be offered would include all social studies: history, geography, philosophy, psychology, sociology, rhetoric, and literature. Classes would focus on looking at issues and problems and use constructive discussions for students to look at these issues and learn from them. By the time they are out of high school they should have a much better understanding of languages and the world around them.

What are your thoughts on education?

wheelchairman
02-28-2008, 12:21 PM
Education is something I think about a lot. So I think I will reply to this after Star Trek!!!

screwuhippie
02-28-2008, 12:46 PM
We were having a discussion in my 1960's class today about education and what us as current college students would like to see from the system. I said that I would like to see budgets of other branches of our country cut and that money funneled off into higher education. Someone scoffed at this idea and made a comment that I was socialist. What's wrong with socialism? For the past 50 years we've villanized socialism as a backwards method to running a country or anything, but why not accept some various nuances that could work?

Also, we talked about the elementary system. I have read this idea somewhere else and actually quite like it:

Why don't we take the system and turn it upside down? For the first years of elementary school we only teach languages: English, Spanish (or French), and Latin. Why Latin? Because Latin gives people who speak English a much better understanding of words and their roots, thereby helping them speak their 'own' language. At the same time the students will be learning basic writing skills. After those informative years, move onto math and more moderate writing skills. Then, say 5th through 7th grade, mainly focus on science's and upping the writing skills some more. The next step is to introduce critical thinking skills in the middle school and high school years. Classes that would be offered would include all social studies: history, geography, philosophy, psychology, sociology, rhetoric, and literature. Classes would focus on looking at issues and problems and use constructive discussions for students to look at these issues and learn from them. By the time they are out of high school they should have a much better understanding of languages and the world around them.

What are your thoughts on education?


I think its not really a bad idea at all! BUT ... if you are talking US schools you will run into a very huge roadblock (which is the problem to begin with). Its called "no Child Left Behind" and while its a valient effort up front ... it forces our schools to dumb themselves down so everyone can succeed. If we attempted to really force people to get smart like they should ... it apathy that currently exists and the current "Entitlement" that people think they have ... you will never be able to pull this kinda thing off.

We no longer teach our kids to think ... we teach them to show up ... bang their heads on a desk, eat crap, think crap, socialize and well ... fall further behind the rest of the world.

So ... i'm with you ... give em the core and then focus but ... it'll never happen the more this country moves to the notion that no on can be special

batfish
02-28-2008, 01:20 PM
Why is it better to learn languages before anything else? I'm not denying that it's probably more useful to a child of that age to be more skilled in language than social studies (especially at that age when history seems to consist simply of drawing pictures of castles), but I don't think it should be at the expense of a more varied eduaction.

Bear in mind the attention span of a six year old. Would he or she be able to cope with an intensive course in English, Latin and Spanish, without much of the "fun" aspects that science and geography provide? Despite the relative uselessness of pictures of castles, children do get a good general knowledge with the current format. They have more varied subjects to talk about, and remembering back to my own primary school days, really enjoy the change from subject to subject.

I'll admit complete ignorance on child brain development here, but is it possible that stimulating the part of the brain concerning maths and logic early on could make it easier later? The age of 7 or 8 seems a little late to start.

Also, children get "left behind" in classes the older they get. At certain points, some realise that they're not particularly academic, so they just stop concentrating. Therefore there will be some children leaving school with good language ability but rudimentary arithmatic and no social studies skills.

I agree that children should learn foreign languages from a young age. It might have been my rather language-orientated high school feeding me propaganda, but there's so much evidence to suggest that it's a lot easier the earlier you start. I was so badly showed up by my German exchange partner, who was a year younger anyway :-/

What is the American further education system like? What proportion go to university, and are they subsidised? Is it very much a middle-class route? DO most students get loans or do their parents pay?

wheelchairman
02-28-2008, 02:16 PM
Alright first things first.

Iamsam I have to disagree with the importance you place on learning a foreign language early. I agree that foreign languages are necessary. However for young children I believe that English is the only relevant language to learn. (Unless this is regards to a country that already speaks English, then it would obviously be prudent to perhaps learn a language of a neighboring country.)

More diversification can come later on in the educational process (this is how most countries do it anyways.) So I feel that a balanced education from the start is a good one and I see no problems with that.

I do agree Iamsam that more money needs to go to the educational sector though.

One of the prevalent problems in Denmark is the mediocre quality of the teachers. There are low entry requirements into the education and the pay isn't great. What this usually ends up meaning is that teachers generally are of mediocre quality when they start. It's quite a problem, and throwing more money at it won't help.

Personally I would do something like raise the salary level of teachers and raise the acceptance requirements in pedagogic education so that the job becomes more prestigious.

T-6005
02-28-2008, 03:51 PM
Why is it better to learn languages before anything else?
Actually, up until about the age of ten, children demonstrate an extreme propensity for picking up new languages. I once heard the term "window of learning" used.

Here, I found a link to it. It's called the Critical Period Hypothesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Period_Hypothesis

iPunk247
02-28-2008, 08:44 PM
EDUCATION is important to me personaly [in general] because it is great knowledge to share with and to challenge ourselfs in any levels of Futures Prodigies.

I may not be so wised up and stuff but at least I stll give in on my two cents.

I have learned alot on old school stuff and new school stuff and its just great

I have found respect on all peoples with great knolwedge and great wisdom.

I dig the Technology is it so Advanced and everythings shit fucking great.

Education will continue on for modern generations after this life and so on so fourth. Schools; Colleges; Univesities; Private Schools or whatevers all students are the never ever ending personas of fountain of Keys to Universe.

IamSam
02-28-2008, 10:02 PM
I think its not really a bad idea at all! BUT ... if you are talking US schools you will run into a very huge roadblock (which is the problem to begin with). Its called "no Child Left Behind" and while its a valient effort up front ... it forces our schools to dumb themselves down so everyone can succeed. If we attempted to really force people to get smart like they should ... it apathy that currently exists and the current "Entitlement" that people think they have ... you will never be able to pull this kinda thing off.


It also takes away funding from schools who fail the testing. Which only makes sense in bizarro world.




Alright first things first.

Iamsam I have to disagree with the importance you place on learning a foreign language early. I agree that foreign languages are necessary. However for young children I believe that English is the only relevant language to learn. (Unless this is regards to a country that already speaks English, then it would obviously be prudent to perhaps learn a language of a neighboring country.)

More diversification can come later on in the educational process (this is how most countries do it anyways.) So I feel that a balanced education from the start is a good one and I see no problems with that.

I do agree Iamsam that more money needs to go to the educational sector though.

One of the prevalent problems in Denmark is the mediocre quality of the teachers. There are low entry requirements into the education and the pay isn't great. What this usually ends up meaning is that teachers generally are of mediocre quality when they start. It's quite a problem, and throwing more money at it won't help.

Personally I would do something like raise the salary level of teachers and raise the acceptance requirements in pedagogic education so that the job becomes more prestigious.

I am supremely glad you talked about other countries and how they do things. I didn't realize that other places taught other languages further on down the line.

I agree that teachers need to step it up as well. I know that I've had a few mediocre teachers that just got by with things, and that isn't right. Hopefully in the future I won't be known as one of those. Teaching really does need to be more prestigious.



Actually, up until about the age of ten, children demonstrate an extreme propensity for picking up new languages. I once heard the term "window of learning" used.

Here, I found a link to it. It's called the Critical Period Hypothesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Period_Hypothesis

Exactly!


EDUCATION is important to me personaly [in general] because it is great knowledge to share with and to challenge ourselfs in any levels of Futures Prodigies.

I may not be so wised up and stuff but at least I stll give in on my two cents.

I have learned alot on old school stuff and new school stuff and its just great

I have found respect on all peoples with great knolwedge and great wisdom.

I dig the Technology is it so Advanced and everythings shit fucking great.

Education will continue on for modern generations after this life and so on so fourth. Schools; Colleges; Univesities; Private Schools or whatevers all students are the never ever ending personas of fountain of Keys to Universe.


Your honor, exhibit A of why we need to remake our education system.

Nicole
02-29-2008, 02:17 AM
I'm all for children starting the learning of second languages as early as possible. It's well known that as you get older your ability to learn another language greatly decreases and it's best to start as young as possible. But doing that solely in the early years is a waste of time, you really need to cover all the basic areas so that their brains wire themselves accordingly. So not only are you expanding their skills in linguistics, you're also expanding other areas of the brain at the same time and going towards proper brain development and a better education. You need to start all the skills early on, no matter how basic because different people develop at different rates and only having one area to channel into is kind of dumb, so at least if children are weak in one area they can excel at something else, really important for self esteem. Developmental Psychology is really interesting stuff, look into it.

I'm a huge fan of governments investing in higher education, as much as they can. Trying to get by in classrooms that have poor resources is a pain, like the public high schools I went to. As far as I'm concerned if you have brains enough to get into uni and the willingness to spend years of their life there they should have access to the best resources possible. These are the people that will be in professional positions in relatively short time and it's so worth the investment. I would hate to go to a professional person and expect a certain level of knowledge out of them and find myself let down because there were things that could have been done to enhance their education and knowledge base and skills base. I also think it's sad that people who would do so well at it can't get in because it costs too much money because it's user-pays and they're too poor to go to college or uni, and being up to the eyeballs in student loans just isn't cool. I'll have to pay back about AU$15,000 for my nursing degree when I'm done, gradually, and that only kicks in after I earn about $35,000 annually, and I would hate to be in the position where I had to pay back loans regardless of my earning capacity or pay back even more.

Sunny
03-02-2008, 06:57 AM
the american system makes me kind of sick.

one thing i've noticed about american schools: the disparity in quality of education is huge. you either go to a private high school and get all the help you can get with SAT's and college; everyone fawns over your dumb ass and tells you you're "special and gifted", you attend "self esteem building" workshops that only reiterate that you're hot shit, and generally, everyone tries to "foster your strengths" even if you're dumb as a brick, because HI, you're paying $30k a year. so yeah.
or, you go to public school and emerge being able to say "yo quiero taco bell" after four years of Spanish and look bewildered when I say I'm from Poland. "umm, is that even a country?"

Anyway.
i would say language immersion would be beneficial from a young age for obvious reasons, but i wouldn't limit elementary school curriculum to languages and languages only. i believe an early introduction to basic mathematics and logic could really help a lot of kids out. a lot of kids kind of decide "math is too hard" very early on, and that's it. it basically ruins their chances of ever grasping it... and in math, if you're missing one segment, it will come back to bite you in the ass later. however, if you give them an early start and skills that empower them later in school, they would probably feel more confident and not have that mental block. does that make sense?


i also prefer the Baccalaureate system (exam at the end of high school) over the SAT system. the SAT is mind-numbing and ultimately worthless, and while the bac isn't perfect, I believe it gives universities a better understanding of the prospective student. There's written assignments, essays and oral exams in a variety of subjects (mine looked like this: Polish, written essay, literature analysis; Polish oral exam, similar thing; analyzing literature; English written and spoken, which I didn't have to take because duh, and biology written and oral exam). it was a bitch, but didn't hate it anywhere as much as i hated the fucking SATs.

what I hated (and now kind of like) about Polish high schools is that they make you take every class they offer. In the end, however, you emerge more well-rounded because of your forced exposure to different concepts (although, it did suck balls having to take everything all at once). But at least, unlike many American students, I don't think mitochondrium is something you can crush and snort. =p

Another thing... the way literature is taught in many high schools basically discourages people from reading. sometimes for life. reading something one chapter at a time, then stopping and filling out a retarded question sheet takes all the fun away from a good book. Kids should be encouraged to read more, but without torturous xeroxed handouts, dumb questions and book reports. You know the current system is fucking flawed when high school kids read Cliff's notes for BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS instead of enjoying the book. fucking... blasphemous.
And don't get me started on the way poetry is dissected. it's sick.

wheelchairman
03-02-2008, 09:15 AM
Wait you didn't have to take the English exams?

*I* had to take the English exams. uggggggh.

Yeah the thing about American public schools is that they are funded by local taxes. (so poorer areas get less funding). Now really that should just be criminal.

Literature analysis is the worst ever. But every country has classes like that. Where they standardize interpretation (and well make it impossible.)
Ha I don't think I'll ever enjoy Danish literature.

Sunny
03-02-2008, 09:26 AM
it was English as second language, which i'm assuming wasn't the case with you. but if it was, that's just ridic.
i pretty much got 100% on my TOEFL, and a high TOEFL score automatically allows you to skip the ESL part of the Bac.

i don't even really want to think what American public schools are like in actually *poor* areas. the only public schools i know anything about are in Westchester, which is a very wealthy area, and they're still pretty shitty. sad.

wheelchairman
03-02-2008, 11:04 AM
Well it's hard to know what they are lie in other areas, way too diversified.

It just makes you want to say "wha....? equal opportunity for all...?"

Anyways yeah it was English as a second language. The major difference between Denmark and the US in terms of education is that in the US there is an overfocus on the intelligent students (and everyone else gets by or gets left behind) while in Denmark the intelligent students more or less get ignored so that the teachers can focus on the dumb ones. Which makes sense but then you should just move kids ahead or whatever. (Although I'm not claiming to be some kind of boy genius here, I just didn't need the class).

So I took ESL and it was pretty much because it was required.

iPunk247
03-13-2008, 09:05 PM
I Am A Serious Threat Of This Gods Creation System. I Am A Anti-god.

iPunk247
03-13-2008, 09:07 PM
Anti-Everything. don't fuck with me because i will fuck all of yous. *lucifer anti-soul* nor *gods anti-soul* i am a nobody.