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Rag Doll
03-19-2008, 12:08 PM
So, I'm currently in the process of writing the senior thesis for one of my majors to earn one of my BAs. I've decided to focus on misogyny in music. I kind of want to get a feel for how others that are roughly my age (and aren't in the same areas of study that I am) feel about it. Do you have a problem with sexist lyrics in music? Do you have a problem with violence against women in music? Or uses of words like "cunt" and "whore" in songs? Or do you have any other thoughts about it? I just have one request. Please don't turn this thread into a whole bunch of "fuck bitches" comments, unless that's how you really feel. Thanks.

*I'm also super appreciative of any songs that anyone may come across that you think might relate to what I'm talking about. I have quite a few, but I'm always looking for more, with all different styles of music. Thanks again.

nieh
03-19-2008, 12:19 PM
Lyrics are normally one of the last things I pay attention to, so it's possible for me to like a song even if the lyrics are misogynistic, but normally if it's overt it does make it difficult for me to listen to.

0r4ng3
03-19-2008, 01:17 PM
Yeah, sometimes my lyrics are a little bit sexist
but you lovely bitches and hoes should know I'm trying to correct this.

Um, also what nieh said.

SuperKnux
03-19-2008, 02:04 PM
Cool, thanks for this thread Rag Doll.

Um, over the past year or so I've more then definitely become somewhat of a feminist. I draw and write (crappy) poetry that often deals with misogyny, violence against women, women’s rights, and sort of exposes the patriarchy society that we’ve (for whatever reason) have accepted.

Now, I love music. I love rock 'n roll too much to let it go. But yes, there is a lot of misogyny in music. I mean yeah, it's in rap mostly which is a little bother some since everybody is dancing to it in the clubs but I know it goes far more than that. As an artist, I’m constantly doing artwork that depicts violent imaginary, often extreme forms of sex, and there is a lot of gore in my work. I’m sure conservatives will find my work to be offensive. (It has happened several times before, unfortunately.) But the thing of the matter is, that is my work. That is how I choose to express myself and my ideas. I don’t draw for other people. I do what I feel I should do and I think that if somebody like Eminem wants to write a song like “Kill You” or “Kim” then he can do that. Who am I to tell him what he can or can not do? Yes, his music is offensive. Yes, it’s hard to listen too. But that is his artwork. Nobody is physically getting harmed from it like in say underground (or mainstream) pornography in which women are getting hurt and abused (at times violently).

Same thing applies to the likes of Seth McFarlane (the guy who does Family Guy) and of course Sin City writer Frank Miller. If you watch Family Guy you’ll notice that Seth has this like huge hatred towards women. I’m sure not many viewers know that, because the show is pretty low in standards to begin with and the majority love it to death. Yes, the show is offensive but again, women aren’t being physically raped or abused. You also have a choice. You can sit there and watch the show and get mad at it all the 23 minutes it runs, or you can change the channel and not watch it at all.

I do think these things do have an influence on the public, however. Especially little kids and teens who do listen to Akon, Eminem, The Beatles (they’re pretty misogynist), or The Rolling Stones. Shows like Family Guy also influence a lot of kids and that does create a problem. But alas, as an artist, that is how they choose to express themselves so I must not get in the way of that. People need to be smart though about what it is their message is and that they understand what it can do to women in the long run.

There is a lot of music and movies that I like that are offensive to women and even me. Pulp Fiction, Fight Club, Sin City, and Boogie Nights just to name a few. But I like those movies because of other things. It does offend me, but they’re all (for being Hollywood) really well executed and fantastically directed movies. In the end it comes down too being educated. More people need to understand that we can’t treat women (or people for that matter) like shit. We need to treat everyone with respect so they’d be less “lolol shut up bitch” and “dude id fuck her” comments on YouTube and the country.

Sunny
03-19-2008, 02:51 PM
so i feel like a bit of a hypocrite, because even though i am generally bothered by sexist tv shows or sexist advertising, i let misogynist stuff slip when it comes to music. honestly, sometimes i don't even realize what i'm listening to/singing along to... then it hits me what they're actually saying and it's like "whoa, that's wrong". yet if i enjoy the tune, the lyrical content of the song won't completely turn me off to it. i feel like i'm almost desensitized to it... especially since so many songs on the radio are all about "bitches" and "hoes".

for some reason, eminem singing about killing his wife doesn't bother me as much as the objectification/female submission that's basically all over the radio. maybe it's because no one is going to take eminem's "bitch i'ma kill you" seriously (well, most people, at least). however, the message that women are only as good as their orifices is much more common, and i feel like it has much more impact than the really violent stuff. perhaps because it's totally accepted and omnipresent. like, kids practice dance moves to soulja boy (superman that ho, anyone?)

here's some lyrics that i found problematic/relevant to your question.

"Long hair big lips
Little doll frame round her plastic tits
She's automatic and super clean
Little bang baby all American dream" - "sex machine", dope

der.

"I'm a menace, a dentist, an oral hygienist
Open your mouth for about four or five minutes
Take a little bit of this fluoride rinse
Swish but don't spit it, swallow and I'll finish
Yeah me and Nate d-o-g-g
Looking for a couple bitches with some double D's
Pop a little champagne and a couple E's
Slip it in her bubbly, we gonna have a party" - eminem/nate dogg, "shake that"

wait... i thought slipping stuff in people's drinks was also known as "date rape", not "party". whoops.

"Not a eight and not a nine, grade you more than just a dime
Bentley steering wheel body, cause you look better from behind
Grip around your waist turn it, like I'm just trying to get a better view
Cause God must of been working hard, when he assembled you
I'm trying to test drive, your rear and your shape
And I'm power steering your waist, and I see your rear is in shake
If you thought I couldn't handle it, then you're really mistaken
No one here to keep you near, then you're here for the taking" - chamillionaire, "grown and sexy"

i actually like that song (shame, shame), but comparing the girl to a luxury car...basically, a really pretty object/accessory.. yeah, sick.

wheelchairman
03-19-2008, 03:07 PM
You can find a great deal of misogyny in folk music. Women tricking men (The Black Velvet Band), etc. Typical rooted-in-the-bible-distrust type stories.

I wouldn't go so far as calling it misogyny though since these are very old songs, and correcting them would simply be historical chauvinism.

In contemporary music I haven't heard it. However stuff like Danko Jones or Sage Francis could be interpreted that way, I'd be much more inclined to understand it not as misogyny but more as observations, or feelings of bitterness. I wouldn't however call it lasting (since the opposite also appears in their discographies or even on the same cd, an emotional state right after a relationship, or an attempt at getting at the same emotional state in order to convey a feeling in a song.)

I don't really listen to Eminem though, so I can't comment. However in these instances what can be seen as mysogyny might simply be the irrational feelings a person has after such emotional breakdowns.

Or it might be ironic. Either way if I were to listen to music that turned women into commodities, well it would really seem like empty thoughtless music wouldn't it? How many people truly listen to it for the lyrics? How much thought did the artist actually put into the lyrics?

Fight Club is offensive to women? wtf? No seriously, wtf?

wheelchairman
03-19-2008, 03:11 PM
Also on Family Guy, if the basis of the claims of misogyny are Peter and Quagmire, what an empty and hollow argument. At no time are those characters ever made to look like role-models, quite the opposite in fact....

And the dismissiveness of Family Guy is not an act of racism or sexism. To claim as such is to justify the claim that anything not up to a certain standard of progressive thought is sexist or racist (perhaps someone simply isn't punk enough as well... :/ ).

EDIT: Back to the folk music point, I just remembered this. At one point when I listened to folk a lot, I was kind of surprised how various folk music traditions ended up where the protagonist of a song ended up shooting his girlfriend for cheating on him. (the most famous of which would be Hey Joe, actually.) The idea of shooting someone for cheating you would think would tie-back to folk traditions and concepts of Honor, the honor of a person or the honor of a family or what have you. I would suppose the root of such is lied there. And if you take a look at some cultures, the whole root of honor, the pressure is entirely reliant upon the purity and moral standards of a woman. Which would actually make the sociological implications of our society in the past 100 years rather interesting. It's also the foundation of Your Mama jokes too, if you think about it. I gotta stop adding on to this already verbose paragraph.

Vera
03-19-2008, 03:25 PM
Fight Club is offensive to women? wtf? No seriously, wtf?

This one boggles me too.

SPOILARZ!

I mean, Fight Club has no women but if it had women, wouldn't that be worse - abuse of women in a club controlled by men sounds like a feminist horror story. At no point does the narrator hate on women.. Who he does hate is himself, and it is implied, his father for abandoning him and his mother. And in the end he is desperate to stop Tyler because he cares for Marla (and people in general, I guess). It's a very malecentric novel but that doesn't make it misogynist to me.


To be back on-topic..

I'm scrolling back and forth on my iTunes and I honestly can't find very misogynist stuff. The only rap I listen to is Korean and based on lyric translations I've read, they don't have much "kill yoo bitch!" stuff. In fact some songs are quite cute. In one song Epik High asks, "I'll be your gentleman baby, will you be my lady?". :]

Indian songs, despite Indian society being oppressive to women to a certain extent, are also pretty lovely.

The biggest offender on my iTunes may be my favourite rocker from the 50's, Buddy Holly. "That'll be The Day" is one of my fave songs of his but in the song is awfully patronizing towards the female and just kind of generally asshole-like.

That'll be the day when you say goodbye
that'll be the day when you make me cry
you say you gonna leave
you know it's a lie cuz
that'll be the day when I die.

And later..

When Cupid shot his dart
he shot it at your heart
so if we ever part
then I'll leave you.

Just.. UGH! But then, this was the 50's. Pre-feminism, days of "go make me a sandwich" housewives and suburban America. So while I don't like it at all, I can tolerate it.

In general, though, I tend not to listen to the lyrics unless they jump out to me as hateful/stupid/ridiculous or otherwise offensive.

Jakebert
03-19-2008, 03:48 PM
Listen to some 80's metal/mainstream rock.

Little_Miss_1565
03-19-2008, 04:57 PM
I feel like the main problem with misogyny in lyrics is less about the treatment of women than it is about the construction of masculinity. Make it so that men don't have to front like this in order to make them feel like they're men. Take the focus away from sexual virility as the main definition, and I think it would make a big difference.

nieh
03-19-2008, 05:21 PM
I kind of agree. I've always had a problem with machismo in music, but like with misogyny, that normally takes a back-seat to the music unless it's overt.

Sunny
03-19-2008, 05:40 PM
I feel like the main problem with misogyny in lyrics is less about the treatment of women than it is about the construction of masculinity. Make it so that men don't have to front like this in order to make them feel like they're men. Take the focus away from sexual virility as the main definition, and I think it would make a big difference.

i think you're making a great point. an objectifying (if not degrading) attitude towards women is a huge part of the mainstream definition of masculinity. i'm not even going to attempt to deconstruct why that is, or why the concept of a "pimp" who doesn't give a hot fuck about his "hoes" is such a desirable status to have.

Mota Boy
03-20-2008, 10:32 AM
If there is one thing that legitimately bothers me in regard to political correctness (this does tie in to your question) in pop culture, it's that I think it can be applied to too narrow a slice. For me, misogyny can be eyebrow-raising and off-putting if it's done too crudely (though in rap it's done so blatantly that it's long-since blasted beyond the point of outrage and into the realm ironic appreciation, but, I mean, I give music a lot of leeway. By the "too narrow a slice", I mean that claims of sexism apply to one single song or movie, when I think they should be viewed on a grander scale. I figure that most music is based upon a fairly strong emotion - hence the common "love" theme - and that certain percentages cover every range of strong human emotion. Men and women loving and hating each other is a constant theme, and so there will be plenty of songs that feature anger towards a particular woman, which is expanded when viewed solely within the confines of the single work (the theme is 100% of the song), but don't represent the entire catalog, nor the relative amount of time that emotion spends roiling around the artist's brain. The only song I can actually remember getting a reaction out of me was Matchbox 5's "Push", but the reaction was more like "Waaaaiiit a minute, is that guy saying what I think he's saying? Really? Naaaahhhh.... really?". I'm sure there have been others, and I can remember it happening other times, but I won't remember the songs.

For me though, if the artist is talking about *all* women (as opposed to a single, if unnamed, female), I do end up taking the whole thing less seriously.

I'm assuming, regarding recommendations, that you're already thinking of the only one that leaps into my mind - Prodigy's "Smack my Bitch Up" music video.

Re: Family Guy - Personally, I just think that Seth McFarlane is looking for the cheapest and easiest possible joke, and racism and sexism supply that, along with the added benefits of possessing "edge" and allowing him to pretend that he's actually tackling the subject, or providing some sort of sophisticated cultural commentary.

Wolfbutter
03-20-2008, 04:08 PM
Well, the amount of misogyny generally depends on the context of the singer/song. Sometimes it is intentional, and sometimes it is just a side effect or random outburst of how the person is feeling at the time, like what wheelchariman said about Eminem. If you just broke up with your girlfriend or something, you might feel that all women are dumb and stupid and cheating scum. You don't actually believe so, but because of what happened to you before, I find it to be an acceptable case.

However, when some guy goes "uhh yeah bitch get down on yo knees", which is what people like Ice Cube and Dr. Dre did, then yeah it's pretty stupid and I don't really enjoy hearing it. I'm not a women so I can't really speak for them, but I wouldn't really be offended, but I can't really explain why, to me it seems different than making fun of a black person or a gay person. It's just a crude comment that makes you sound like a total jerk. Little Miss 1565 was right, many musicians say that stuff to give themselves a bit of superiority.

Althogh, to be fair, a lot of women really do seel themselves out in the ghetto, so maybe artists are trying to depict what is really going on, in some sick twisted way? Like when Ice Cube was posing as a drug dealer and telling girls to suck his dick, he was just trying to portray to people how sick the ghetto really was. But other artist are obviously really stupid and make fun of women just to make themselves look cool.

But I don't understand, when some people call a man out for making fun of one women. How is Eminem saying "Bitch Ima kill you!" to his mother, misogynist, when it's just his mother? Just because she happens to be a women doesn't mean she is being discriminated against. Ditto for his wife. Or I think he may have said some other stuff in the song, I can't really remember, but that's not the point.

wheelchairman
03-20-2008, 04:21 PM
I was about to ask the mod of this forum to split this thread.

Then I realized how stupid that would look. *nods head and grants wish*

Now if I did this correctly (and god knows it was more complicated than I thought), ALL of our posts should be in this thread. Sam if you want you can probably edit the intro to explain why that thread isn't exclusively about the media. But people will probably get it. Don't you people hate reading really long link-names? Anyways feel free to de-rail the thread at the end of this link to your heart's content. (http://www.offspring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31717)

Rag Doll
03-20-2008, 05:04 PM
I do think these things do have an influence on the public, however. Especially little kids and teens who do listen to Akon, Eminem, The Beatles (they’re pretty misogynist), or The Rolling Stones. Shows like Family Guy also influence a lot of kids and that does create a problem. But alas, as an artist, that is how they choose to express themselves so I must not get in the way of that. People need to be smart though about what it is their message is and that they understand what it can do to women in the long run.

In the end it comes down too being educated. More people need to understand that we can’t treat women (or people for that matter) like shit. We need to treat everyone with respect so they’d be less “lolol shut up bitch” and “dude id fuck her” comments on YouTube and the country.

But do you think someone should do something about this? Do you think it's good that artists (such as Eminem) get awards for their music, which promotes violence against women? Also....why do you think people think it's ok to say things like "shut up bitch"? Why do you think people see no problem with that in lyrics? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a vibe from people...


so i feel like a bit of a hypocrite, because even though i am generally bothered by sexist tv shows or sexist advertising, i let misogynist stuff slip when it comes to music. honestly, sometimes i don't even realize what i'm listening to/singing along to... then it hits me what they're actually saying and it's like "whoa, that's wrong". yet if i enjoy the tune, the lyrical content of the song won't completely turn me off to it. i feel like i'm almost desensitized to it... especially since so many songs on the radio are all about "bitches" and "hoes".


I agree. I am generally bothered by it, except in music. Then I was burning a cd for the mens and I chose to listen to his favorite song....and I was like "omfg." It's "Unsuccessfully Coping with the Natural Beauty of Infidelity" by Type O Negative. And...yeah. That's why I decided to do this paper, because I really like....listened to the lyrics of something. And like...wow!

And lolzzzz I used *Shake That* as part of my paper =p



In contemporary music I haven't heard it. However stuff like Danko Jones or Sage Francis could be interpreted that way, I'd be much more inclined to understand it not as misogyny but more as observations, or feelings of bitterness. I wouldn't however call it lasting (since the opposite also appears in their discographies or even on the same cd, an emotional state right after a relationship, or an attempt at getting at the same emotional state in order to convey a feeling in a song.)

Or it might be ironic. Either way if I were to listen to music that turned women into commodities, well it would really seem like empty thoughtless music wouldn't it? How many people truly listen to it for the lyrics? How much thought did the artist actually put into the lyrics?



hmm. that is an interesting point. if it isn't something strung through their entire lyrical history, it could be some...current state of being. how would you feel about the artist if it were strung through their entire lyrical history, though? And in regard to people not listening to it for the lyrics...I'll tie it into what Sunny said. When people sing along to things about being "bitches" and "sluts" without really noticing what they are singing....is that a problem to you? Or is it a problem that maybe the artist didn't put thought into it, and yet this is what they come up with? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a vibe from people...



I'm scrolling back and forth on my iTunes and I honestly can't find very misogynist stuff. The only rap I listen to is Korean and based on lyric translations I've read, they don't have much "kill yoo bitch!" stuff. In fact some songs are quite cute. In one song Epik High asks, "I'll be your gentleman baby, will you be my lady?". :]

Indian songs, despite Indian society being oppressive to women to a certain extent, are also pretty lovely.

That's interesting, with how women are treated in those cultures. The differences in their lyrics versus american lyrics. hmm. that might be something to explore a little further. thanks =)


Listen to some 80's metal/mainstream rock.
yeah, i unfortunately have shitloads of it in my house 'cause my dad loves it.


I feel like the main problem with misogyny in lyrics is less about the treatment of women than it is about the construction of masculinity. Make it so that men don't have to front like this in order to make them feel like they're men. Take the focus away from sexual virility as the main definition, and I think it would make a big difference.
Do you think that's something we may actually see happen? And lyrics that are a problem in some way or another...do they bug you at all or change your opinion of the artist, or no?


I'm not a women so I can't really speak for them, but I wouldn't really be offended, but I can't really explain why, to me it seems different than making fun of a black person or a gay person. It's just a crude comment that makes you sound like a total jerk.

But I don't understand, when some people call a man out for making fun of one women. How is Eminem saying "Bitch Ima kill you!" to his mother, misogynist, when it's just his mother? Just because she happens to be a women doesn't mean she is being discriminated against. Ditto for his wife. Or I think he may have said some other stuff in the song, I can't really remember, but that's not the point.

Why are comments about a person's race or sexuality more offensive than those about a person's sex? Why is it "ok" to be sexist, but not to be racist or homophobic?

Regarding Eminem....not only does he threaten to kill his ex-wife/mother, he actually "killed" Kim in a song (well...2, at least. "Kim" is about her murder, "Bonnie & Clyde Pt 2" [think thats the name] is about disposing of her body). There is on-going violence towards both women in his music. Is that a problem? Or is it ok? What if he was singling out his black male former friend in the same way? Would you still be ok with it and not see the problem? Also, read the Eminem lyrics Sunny posted in her first reply to this thread. I am interested in how you view them.

*edit* thanks, Per. =)

Wolfbutter
03-20-2008, 05:32 PM
Why are comments about a person's race or sexuality more offensive than those about a person's sex? Why is it "ok" to be sexist, but not to be racist or homophobic?

Regarding Eminem....not only does he threaten to kill his ex-wife/mother, he actually "killed" Kim in a song (well...2, at least. "Kim" is about her murder, "Bonnie & Clyde Pt 2" [think thats the name] is about disposing of her body). There is on-going violence towards both women in his music. Is that a problem? Or is it ok? What if he was singling out his black male former friend in the same way? Would you still be ok with it and not see the problem? Also, read the Eminem lyrics Sunny posted in her first reply to this thread. I am interested in how you view them.

*edit* thanks, Per. =)

Well, it's not "ok" to make fun of women, or to be sexist, but I find it less offensive because women aren't treated nearly as bad as blacks or gay people are. At least from what I've experienced. I don't think it's better than being racist of homophobic, but just less offensive.

And about Eminem, again, that was only one woman. He wasn't angry at her because she was a woman, nor was he calling her out because of it, but he was angry at her for another reason entirely. Just because Kim is a woman doesn't mean she was killed or ridiculed because of it. Besides, it was with his wife/mother, who he has real experience with. Signaling out women like that is pretty counter-productive for society, because why is it a big deal if a woman is threatened instead of a man, especially for reasons totally irrelevant to their gender?

If he was signaling out his black friend, BECAUSE he was black, that would be bad. But if the friend double-crossed him or something, there is nothing wrong with getting mad at him. Just because he happens to be black, doesn't mean he can't be threatened or ridiculed by a white person.

The lyrics that Sunny posted, I honestly don't see a big problem. I agree they are pretty tasteless towards women, but for some reason, it just doesn't seem that bad to me. He's not discriminating them because of their gender though; he's just saying he'll have fun with them. If he said something like "make a girl cook in a kitchen, now you know that she's bitchen". Yeah, that would be worse, because that is saying all girls cook in the kitchen for their spouses. But Eminem is just saying "I'm gonna have sex with her." HE is the one that is doing the bad thing by slipping drugs into their drink, the woman is just the victim.

Rag Doll
03-20-2008, 05:48 PM
Well, it's not "ok" to make fun of women, or to be sexist, but I find it less offensive because women aren't treated nearly as bad as blacks or gay people are. At least from what I've experienced. I don't think it's better than being racist of homophobic, but just less offensive.

And about Eminem, again, that was only one woman. He wasn't angry at her because she was a woman, nor was he calling her out because of it, but he was angry at her for another reason entirely. Just because Kim is a woman doesn't mean she was killed or ridiculed because of it. Besides, it was with his wife/mother, who he has real experience with. Signaling out women like that is pretty counter-productive for society, because why is it a big deal if a woman is threatened instead of a man, especially for reasons totally irrelevant to their gender?

If he was signaling out his black friend, BECAUSE he was black, that would be bad. But if the friend double-crossed him or something, there is nothing wrong with getting mad at him. Just because he happens to be black, doesn't mean he can't be threatened or ridiculed by a white person.

The lyrics that Sunny posted, I honestly don't see a big problem. I agree they are pretty tasteless towards women, but for some reason, it just doesn't seem that bad to me. He's not discriminating them because of their gender though; he's just saying he'll have fun with them. If he said something like "make a girl cook in a kitchen, now you know that she's bitchen". Yeah, that would be worse, because that is saying all girls cook in the kitchen for their spouses. But Eminem is just saying "I'm gonna have sex with her." HE is the one that is doing the bad thing by slipping drugs into their drink, the woman is just the victim.

Can you give me reasons why women are not treated as badly? Examples of what you mean?

In regards to your response to "Shake That". How is he not discriminating them based on their gender? Would he say the same things to a man? Would he say he wants to a party with a pimp with a 9 inch tool? What about the comments about a girl sucking his penis and swallowing afterwards? And how is any of this, especially the date rape part, fun for anyone besides Eminem (and any other male that may reap the benefits)? Instead of saying all girl's cook in the kitchen, he's saying all girls are bitches, are valued for their looks, are valued for their sexual abilities, and should be used as orifices only....and they should be used by whatever means necessary. And Eminem is not saying he is "gonna have sex with her". Sex = consensual. Drugging a drink = rape. And if the woman is the victim and getting drugged and he is doing the "bad thing"....there's nothing wrong with that?


*note*before i get "feminazi" bashing...some stuff i say is probably going to be a bit of devil's advocate, or pushing my own beliefs to the absolute extreme to get to what people are thinking.

T-6005
03-20-2008, 06:11 PM
Wolfbutter is so naive and idealistic.

"Women really do sell themselves out in the ghetto."

Please state your relevant ghetto experiences, the names of 4 thugz you know, and the last 3 hos to "seel" themselves to you.

Wolfbutter
03-20-2008, 06:15 PM
Discrimination is generally interpreted as signally someone out because they are of different backgrounds but are still the same. Men and women are different, at least in gender and sexual orientation. Men like to do stuff with women, and women like to do stuff with men. It's not all black and white. Of course women like to suck cock, of course men like to play with tits. It's not discriminating because that's pretty much how all women are. If you said "all black women like it up the butt" than that would be discrimination, because you are signaling out one group based specifically on their background. Women ARE valued for their looks, just as men are. Everyone is valued for their looks. And I never said there was nothing wrong with slipping a drug in a girl's drug, I just said that is not discrimination towards women.

And when Eminem said all girls are orifices, yeah, I guess that is discrimination, but it depends on what your view of how bad it is. Like I said before, it's not all black and white. I haven't heard the song, but it just sounds like a party song to me. I'm not saying it is good, but I just think there are different degrees of how bad discrimination can be.

Gay people are not allowed to get married in some states. I think that's worse than how women are treated.

Wolfbutter
03-20-2008, 06:16 PM
Wolfbutter is so naive and idealistic.

"Women really do sell themselves out in the ghetto."

Please state your relevant ghetto experiences, the names of 4 thugz you know, and the last 3 hos to "seel" themselves to you.

It's not like I had to experience myself to know about that. Prostitutes exist, I don't need to live in the ghetto to know that.

aprilrfool
03-20-2008, 10:43 PM
"And when Eminem said all girls are orifices, yeah, I guess that is discrimination, but it depends on what your view of how bad it is. Like I said before, it's not all black and white. I haven't heard the song, but it just sounds like a party song to me. I'm not saying it is good, but I just think there are different degrees of how bad discrimination can be.

Gay people are not allowed to get married in some states. I think that's worse than how women are treated" :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

how could you possibly think that someone not being able to get married is worse than a girl or woman being raped and ruining her life. the shame and humility to her. or worse than physical abuse? have you ever lived through physical abuse?? just cause you cant get a paper that says you are together you are still together. it isnt demeaning or painful. oh my poor broken heart. get a life. maybe you can trade with the woman who is beaten by her husband.

and in response to who ever it was talkin about nate dog and dr. dre and thier ho's, yes it happens (the woman is usually doing it to get said drugs). men in power like to demean women. it makes them feel more powerful. the men rappin about it promote it. so the littler guy wants to do it and feel like a big man. and so on and so forth....

i knew someone once who lived by the music he listened to. he stole a van and filled it up with stolen stuff just to be like sublime (garden grove) and numerous other songs he would get high and an inclination to copy (drugs do strange things), his friends were the same. i knew it was time to leave when he started listening to eminem.

sorry i know this is not part of your topic, and i dont really have much to add, i know how the music made me feel, but not in a scholarly way. sorry to interrupt. this is a great thread by the way.

wheelchairman
03-21-2008, 06:19 AM
hmm. that is an interesting point. if it isn't something strung through their entire lyrical history, it could be some...current state of being. how would you feel about the artist if it were strung through their entire lyrical history, though? And in regard to people not listening to it for the lyrics...I'll tie it into what Sunny said. When people sing along to things about being "bitches" and "sluts" without really noticing what they are singing....is that a problem to you? Or is it a problem that maybe the artist didn't put thought into it, and yet this is what they come up with? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a vibe from people...


If it was strung out through their entire lyrical history I would probably get bored. The lyricist either is incapable of writing an interesting song, or is emotionally crippled, in either case it'd be hard to relate.

I don't really care if they sing sluts or bitches or not. This is the core of the debate in Denmark we have all the fucking time. Whether or not freedom of speech should be limited in order to protect the feelings of a group of people. The simple answer is, no it shouldn't be limited. The artist has the right to say bitch and slut. Of course everything depends on context for me to judge it as well. It could be humorous (intentional or unintentional), it could be telling a story, it could be the way he feels about womankind at that given moment, (and if that's how he always felt, some part of me would find that humorous, but really not my thing.)

And personally I value lyrics that aren't hastily and poorly put together. But that's just the way I feel about it. Some people could care less. I mean bitch and slut are easier to rhyme with other words than purple, or girl.




how could you possibly think that someone not being able to get married is worse than a girl or woman being raped and ruining her life. the shame and humility to her. or worse than physical abuse? have you ever lived through physical abuse?? j
Relax. There's no reason to take the moral and emotional high ground in a written debate.

Now to answer your question, (and I personally don't agree with what I'm about to say, but I'm going to give you the reasonable and logical answer)

Not allowing gays to get married is state and societally sanctioned discrimination of a group of people. A group of people. The battering of a single woman by a deranged individual, is just that. It's not socially acceptable. In fact quite the opposite. And it's certainly not accepted by any government in the states...

See a difference?

Rag Doll
03-21-2008, 06:49 AM
sorry i know this is not part of your topic, and i dont really have much to add, i know how the music made me feel, but not in a scholarly way. sorry to interrupt. this is a great thread by the way.

it doesn't have to be in a scholarly way =). just....try your best, if you'd like.

i'm not going to be around much this weekend to keep aggravating everyone with questions. but rest assured, i will return...

Sunny
03-21-2008, 08:06 AM
first of all, wolfbutter, let's not start comparing oppressions, because it's never a good idea.

and please, i am not sure how old you are, but NOT all women like to suck cock, and it's for your own good that you learn this now rather than later. and even those who do would most likely object to being treated in the way eminem describes.

you can argue that it's not discrimination, but let me ask you this. imagine you just arrived on god's green earth, have no idea what mankind is like, and all you had to learn from was modern music. honestly, would it paint an accurate picture of how women are? or would you picture sex-crazed, empty-brained, gold digging disposable fucktoys whose sexuality is up for grabs by just about anyone? is that really what the girls and women you know are like? that's what misogyny is - it paints a picture that's easy to hate and easy to dehumanize. and that's where it gets dangerous.

And I highly suggest that we don't get into the whole "women get into prostitution because they just, like, want to sell themselves" thing, because i might have a fucking fit. thanks loves!

anyway, Sam, here's some lyrics that, i assume, were written by women... and while they might not be in the same category as the other songs we talked about, they are still pretty interesting (internalized sexism mayhaps?)

"Lil' Kim not a whore
But I sex a nigga so good, he gotta tell his boys
When it, come to sex don't test my skills
Cause my head game have you HEAD over heels
Give a nigga the chills, have him pay my bills
Buy matchin Lambo's with the same color wheels..." - lil kim, "magic stick"

and from a totally different angle.. might not exactly be considered misogynist, and i dunno how i feel about it... like there's nothing wrong with pampering your mens, but the total servitude.. i dunno. bugs me.

"Let Me Help You
Take Off Your Shoes
Untie Your Shoestrings
Take Off Your Cufflinks (Yeah)
What You Want To Eat Boo? (Yeah)
Let Me Feed You
Let Me Run Your Bathwater
Whatever You Desire, I'll Aspire
Sing You A Song
Turn The Game On
I'll Brush Your Hair
Help Put Your Do Rag On
Want A Foot Rub? (Yeah)
You Want A Manicure?"

"If You Want It (I Got It)
Say The Word (I Will Try It)
I Know Whatever I'm Not Fulfilling (Oh)
Another Woman Is Willing (Oh) - destiny's child, "cater 2 u".

Vera
03-21-2008, 08:41 AM
The message of the Destiny's Child song is disgustingly ..patriarchal for the lack of a better word, but I dunno if it's misogynist. The idea that if you don't give your man whatever he wants, he's free to find another woman is kind of off-putting. Plus the song has this line (googled more lyrics), "I put my life in your hands" which is just like ..what?

Sunny
03-21-2008, 08:48 AM
i think that patriarchy is misogynist by its very nature, if that makes any sense... because it is a system built on sexist principles.

but yeah, the "i know i will be disposed of if i fail to fulfill your every wish" undertone is really disturbing. like on one hand, i can see how it could be read as "it's your day, i'm going to take care of you"... but it's taken totally over the top and pretty depressing, to be honest.

Rag Doll
03-21-2008, 03:29 PM
Sunny - thanks for the other lyrics. I'm definitely into using lyrics written/performed by women in my paper. i'm using Beyonce's *Upgrade U* ("take me just to complement the deal.." etc), but those others are great. i don't hear music performed/written by women often enough to really know what is out there.

XYlophonetreeZ
03-21-2008, 05:34 PM
Adding to what Mota Boy said, here's a suggestion. It might be a tad too obvious to focus on hip hop lyrics throughout your entire thesis, so it might be interesting to focus on some white heartthrob music and how it manages to be misogynistic while meaning to come across as "sweet" to girls. Examples: "Daughters" by John Mayer and "She Will Be Loved" by Maroon 5.

calichix
03-23-2008, 09:49 PM
misogyny is rap music is so stupid and redundant that I can ignore it and occasionally enjoy it for its stupidity much like watching trashy tv- you know you're above it but sometimes it's funny to let it tear apart your brain for a while.

the band that kills me is nickelback. that "don't hit her- she's just a woman" song and the "I hate the dirt on your knees" song are fucking outrageous. they genuinely offend me on so many levels.

Sunny
03-24-2008, 08:23 AM
Examples: "Daughters" by John Mayer

i hate that song so much. omfg. =/

Little_Miss_1565
03-24-2008, 09:03 AM
the band that kills me is nickelback. that "don't hit her- she's just a woman" song and the "I hate the dirt on your knees" song are fucking outrageous. they genuinely offend me on so many levels.

Ughgghhhghghgh I hate shit like that.

Vera
03-24-2008, 09:05 AM
the band that kills me is nickelback. that "don't hit her- she's just a woman" song and the "I hate the dirt on your knees" song are fucking outrageous. they genuinely offend me on so many levels.

Oh, a new reason to hate Nickelback than their plain incredible suckage? *googles lyrics*

Holy shit Laura you are so right.

"Figure You Out" lyrics (cp'ed from a stupid lyrics website):

i like the freecles on ur chest
i liket he way u like me best
i like the way ur not impressed
while u put me to the test
i like the wine stains on ur dress
i love the way u pass the cheque
i love the good times that u reck
i love your lack of self respect
when youre past out on the deck
i love my hands around ur neck


The last three lines, WTFFFF.

Vera
03-25-2008, 02:29 PM
Tonight at work my iPod played this song that is not misogynistic but refers to other people being misogynistic (or maybe just very chauvinistic?), subtly critisizing it.. So even if it isn't of any help, I'd like to share it.


Happy Hour by the Housemartins

"It's another night out with the boss
Following in footsteps overgrown with moss
And they tell me that women grow on trees
And if you catch them right they will land upon their knees

Where they open all their wallets
And they close all their minds
And they love to buy you all a drink
And then we ask all the questions
And you take all your clothes off
And go back to the kitchen sink"