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Rag Doll
03-19-2008, 11:08 AM
So, I'm currently in the process of writing the senior thesis for one of my majors to earn one of my BAs. I've decided to focus on misogyny in music. I kind of want to get a feel for how others that are roughly my age (and aren't in the same areas of study that I am) feel about it. Do you have a problem with sexist lyrics in music? Do you have a problem with violence against women in music? Or uses of words like "cunt" and "whore" in songs? Or do you have any other thoughts about it? I just have one request. Please don't turn this thread into a whole bunch of "fuck bitches" comments, unless that's how you really feel. Thanks.

*I'm also super appreciative of any songs that anyone may come across that you think might relate to what I'm talking about. I have quite a few, but I'm always looking for more, with all different styles of music. Thanks again.

*EDITTT*
The original thread is http://www.offspring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31707
This was created to stop the derailing of that specific thread, so all forms of media can be discussed here, with no limitations =)

nieh
03-19-2008, 11:19 AM
Lyrics are normally one of the last things I pay attention to, so it's possible for me to like a song even if the lyrics are misogynistic, but normally if it's overt it does make it difficult for me to listen to.

0r4ng3
03-19-2008, 12:17 PM
Yeah, sometimes my lyrics are a little bit sexist
but you lovely bitches and hoes should know I'm trying to correct this.

Um, also what nieh said.

SuperKnux
03-19-2008, 01:04 PM
Cool, thanks for this thread Rag Doll.

Um, over the past year or so I've more then definitely become somewhat of a feminist. I draw and write (crappy) poetry that often deals with misogyny, violence against women, women’s rights, and sort of exposes the patriarchy society that we’ve (for whatever reason) have accepted.

Now, I love music. I love rock 'n roll too much to let it go. But yes, there is a lot of misogyny in music. I mean yeah, it's in rap mostly which is a little bother some since everybody is dancing to it in the clubs but I know it goes far more than that. As an artist, I’m constantly doing artwork that depicts violent imaginary, often extreme forms of sex, and there is a lot of gore in my work. I’m sure conservatives will find my work to be offensive. (It has happened several times before, unfortunately.) But the thing of the matter is, that is my work. That is how I choose to express myself and my ideas. I don’t draw for other people. I do what I feel I should do and I think that if somebody like Eminem wants to write a song like “Kill You” or “Kim” then he can do that. Who am I to tell him what he can or can not do? Yes, his music is offensive. Yes, it’s hard to listen too. But that is his artwork. Nobody is physically getting harmed from it like in say underground (or mainstream) pornography in which women are getting hurt and abused (at times violently).

Same thing applies to the likes of Seth McFarlane (the guy who does Family Guy) and of course Sin City writer Frank Miller. If you watch Family Guy you’ll notice that Seth has this like huge hatred towards women. I’m sure not many viewers know that, because the show is pretty low in standards to begin with and the majority love it to death. Yes, the show is offensive but again, women aren’t being physically raped or abused. You also have a choice. You can sit there and watch the show and get mad at it all the 23 minutes it runs, or you can change the channel and not watch it at all.

I do think these things do have an influence on the public, however. Especially little kids and teens who do listen to Akon, Eminem, The Beatles (they’re pretty misogynist), or The Rolling Stones. Shows like Family Guy also influence a lot of kids and that does create a problem. But alas, as an artist, that is how they choose to express themselves so I must not get in the way of that. People need to be smart though about what it is their message is and that they understand what it can do to women in the long run.

There is a lot of music and movies that I like that are offensive to women and even me. Pulp Fiction, Fight Club, Sin City, and Boogie Nights just to name a few. But I like those movies because of other things. It does offend me, but they’re all (for being Hollywood) really well executed and fantastically directed movies. In the end it comes down too being educated. More people need to understand that we can’t treat women (or people for that matter) like shit. We need to treat everyone with respect so they’d be less “lolol shut up bitch” and “dude id fuck her” comments on YouTube and the country.

nieh
03-19-2008, 01:19 PM
If you watch Family Guy you’ll notice that Seth has this like huge hatred towards women.

The characters and situations he creates for the show are intentionally wrong for the sake of humor which occasionally includes sexist behavior, but that doesn't mean he's sexist. He also has a pedophile character but that doesn't mean Seth wants to have sex with little boys. He's mentioned in the past that his ideals and political leanings are closest to that of Brian in that he's incredibly liberal.

JohnnyNemesis
03-19-2008, 01:28 PM
The characters and situations he creates for the show are intentionally wrong for the sake of humor which occasionally includes sexist behavior, but that doesn't mean he's sexist.

I think that's exactly what it means. He may not mean to be sexist, but exploiting such serious shit and trivializing it in such a way is dismissive and, in essence, such an act is sexist.

nieh
03-19-2008, 01:43 PM
But he's that way with everything, no more with females than with males or different races or sexualities or psychological disorders or religions. They go so over the top with everything that it gets pushed way, way past the realm of having any bearing in reality and beyond that, I've always come away with the idea that Seth is making fun of the male chauvanists (Peter) and womanizers (Quagmire) more than the ideas of chauvanism and womanizing.

Sunny
03-19-2008, 01:51 PM
so i feel like a bit of a hypocrite, because even though i am generally bothered by sexist tv shows or sexist advertising, i let misogynist stuff slip when it comes to music. honestly, sometimes i don't even realize what i'm listening to/singing along to... then it hits me what they're actually saying and it's like "whoa, that's wrong". yet if i enjoy the tune, the lyrical content of the song won't completely turn me off to it. i feel like i'm almost desensitized to it... especially since so many songs on the radio are all about "bitches" and "hoes".

for some reason, eminem singing about killing his wife doesn't bother me as much as the objectification/female submission that's basically all over the radio. maybe it's because no one is going to take eminem's "bitch i'ma kill you" seriously (well, most people, at least). however, the message that women are only as good as their orifices is much more common, and i feel like it has much more impact than the really violent stuff. perhaps because it's totally accepted and omnipresent. like, kids practice dance moves to soulja boy (superman that ho, anyone?)

here's some lyrics that i found problematic/relevant to your question.

"Long hair big lips
Little doll frame round her plastic tits
She's automatic and super clean
Little bang baby all American dream" - "sex machine", dope

der.

"I'm a menace, a dentist, an oral hygienist
Open your mouth for about four or five minutes
Take a little bit of this fluoride rinse
Swish but don't spit it, swallow and I'll finish
Yeah me and Nate d-o-g-g
Looking for a couple bitches with some double D's
Pop a little champagne and a couple E's
Slip it in her bubbly, we gonna have a party" - eminem/nate dogg, "shake that"

wait... i thought slipping stuff in people's drinks was also known as "date rape", not "party". whoops.

"Not a eight and not a nine, grade you more than just a dime
Bentley steering wheel body, cause you look better from behind
Grip around your waist turn it, like I'm just trying to get a better view
Cause God must of been working hard, when he assembled you
I'm trying to test drive, your rear and your shape
And I'm power steering your waist, and I see your rear is in shake
If you thought I couldn't handle it, then you're really mistaken
No one here to keep you near, then you're here for the taking" - chamillionaire, "grown and sexy"

i actually like that song (shame, shame), but comparing the girl to a luxury car...basically, a really pretty object/accessory.. yeah, sick.

JohnnyNemesis
03-19-2008, 01:59 PM
But he's that way with everything, no more with females than with males or different races or sexualities or psychological disorders or religions.

I know what you mean, but I've never understood why people say this as a way to claim that someone/something isn't a sexist/racist or whatever, when in my opinion, that just proves he's racist, sexist, and all sorts of phobic, even if he thinks he's not.

wheelchairman
03-19-2008, 02:07 PM
You can find a great deal of misogyny in folk music. Women tricking men (The Black Velvet Band), etc. Typical rooted-in-the-bible-distrust type stories.

I wouldn't go so far as calling it misogyny though since these are very old songs, and correcting them would simply be historical chauvinism.

In contemporary music I haven't heard it. However stuff like Danko Jones or Sage Francis could be interpreted that way, I'd be much more inclined to understand it not as misogyny but more as observations, or feelings of bitterness. I wouldn't however call it lasting (since the opposite also appears in their discographies or even on the same cd, an emotional state right after a relationship, or an attempt at getting at the same emotional state in order to convey a feeling in a song.)

I don't really listen to Eminem though, so I can't comment. However in these instances what can be seen as mysogyny might simply be the irrational feelings a person has after such emotional breakdowns.

Or it might be ironic. Either way if I were to listen to music that turned women into commodities, well it would really seem like empty thoughtless music wouldn't it? How many people truly listen to it for the lyrics? How much thought did the artist actually put into the lyrics?

Fight Club is offensive to women? wtf? No seriously, wtf?

wheelchairman
03-19-2008, 02:11 PM
Also on Family Guy, if the basis of the claims of misogyny are Peter and Quagmire, what an empty and hollow argument. At no time are those characters ever made to look like role-models, quite the opposite in fact....

And the dismissiveness of Family Guy is not an act of racism or sexism. To claim as such is to justify the claim that anything not up to a certain standard of progressive thought is sexist or racist (perhaps someone simply isn't punk enough as well... :/ ).

EDIT: Back to the folk music point, I just remembered this. At one point when I listened to folk a lot, I was kind of surprised how various folk music traditions ended up where the protagonist of a song ended up shooting his girlfriend for cheating on him. (the most famous of which would be Hey Joe, actually.) The idea of shooting someone for cheating you would think would tie-back to folk traditions and concepts of Honor, the honor of a person or the honor of a family or what have you. I would suppose the root of such is lied there. And if you take a look at some cultures, the whole root of honor, the pressure is entirely reliant upon the purity and moral standards of a woman. Which would actually make the sociological implications of our society in the past 100 years rather interesting. It's also the foundation of Your Mama jokes too, if you think about it. I gotta stop adding on to this already verbose paragraph.

nieh
03-19-2008, 02:17 PM
People on here have made outrageous jokes about 9/11 and Katrina but that doesn't mean those people are members of Al-Qaeda or...umm...are hurricanes. People make dead baby jokes but it doesn't mean they're pro-killing babies. I'm generally of the opinion that for the sake of humor, nothing should be off-limits so long as you manage to make it funny (which Family Guy can admittedly be a little hit-and-miss on sometimes). Actively thinking of the most terrible things you can imagine and working those ideas into jokes doesn't mean you believe in those ideas yourself. Peter Griffin is a male chauvanist, and in order to make that work for the show the writers have to come up with things a male chauvanist might say, and then they push it to the 10th degree so it's virtually impossible for anyone to actually believe anything that extreme. It's like an intentional exaggeration of Fred Flintstone, where Fred would also always make comments like 'everyone knows women aren't allowed to drive cars'. The characters depict horrible behavior, that doesn't mean the people that write for the show agree with them, especially when you take into account the amount of backlash they get for their from OTHER characters in the show. How can you say Seth is sexist for writing Peter's behavior when Brian (who he's said is basically him and is the only character that has *his* voice even thoguh he voices so many others) constantly tells him how wrong his behavior is?

Jakebert
03-19-2008, 02:21 PM
People on here have made outrageous jokes about 9/11 and Katrina but that doesn't mean those people are members of Al-Qaeda or...umm...are hurricanes.

HERE COMES THE STORY OF THE HURRICANE. *dun dun dun*
THE MAN THE AUTHORITIES CAME TO BLAME. *dun dun dun*
For somethin' that he hadn't doooone.

But back to the Family Guy thing...that's almost as annoying as when Christians used to attack the Simpsons for being anti-faith when Homer would make a joke putting down religion, even when the show probably has more pro-religious messages to it than most sitcoms.

Vera
03-19-2008, 02:25 PM
Fight Club is offensive to women? wtf? No seriously, wtf?

This one boggles me too.

SPOILARZ!

I mean, Fight Club has no women but if it had women, wouldn't that be worse - abuse of women in a club controlled by men sounds like a feminist horror story. At no point does the narrator hate on women.. Who he does hate is himself, and it is implied, his father for abandoning him and his mother. And in the end he is desperate to stop Tyler because he cares for Marla (and people in general, I guess). It's a very malecentric novel but that doesn't make it misogynist to me.

Jakebert
03-19-2008, 02:48 PM
Listen to some 80's metal/mainstream rock.

Little_Miss_1565
03-19-2008, 03:57 PM
I feel like the main problem with misogyny in lyrics is less about the treatment of women than it is about the construction of masculinity. Make it so that men don't have to front like this in order to make them feel like they're men. Take the focus away from sexual virility as the main definition, and I think it would make a big difference.

nieh
03-19-2008, 04:21 PM
I kind of agree. I've always had a problem with machismo in music, but like with misogyny, that normally takes a back-seat to the music unless it's overt.

SuperKnux
03-19-2008, 04:25 PM
The misogynist theme in Fight Club isn’t as apparent as oh say, the movie 300? It’s a little more subtle. Since the movie has a Nihilism attitude (more specific Friedrich Nietzsche’s philosophy, whom was very sexist), it basically tries to say that “women aren’t needed in the world” or “it’s the women who hold the men down”, ya know things like that. What I do like about the movie though is the homoerotic undertones (which is totally different story) and that Edward Norton’s character is gay. Marla’s character can also just be depicted as just being meat or a good fuck (I have heard this argument quite a few times actually).

So it really isn’t that offensive, but I know some feminist friends who have been offended by it.

wheelchairman
03-19-2008, 04:30 PM
Superknox, that's ridiculous, both on 300 and on Fight Club.

Anything can be interpreted to be anything, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The movie has very little to do with Friedrich Nietzche however. In fact modern day nihilists aren't really all that caught up in Nietzche either. That's such a bizarre twist, and then to take Nietzche's antiquated views on females as being relevant (or at least mention-worthy) with regards to Fight Club...

Chuck Palahniuk has said though that there is no reprise for men. Women have their empowerment classes. No place to vent at their injustices. Now if the claim that society also mistreats men (even in a patriarchy you can't just assume that all men benefit.....) and that they should have no grievances... I mean I think that's the underlying appeal of Fight Club, and why its more popular among males.

The gay thing is also a very common interpretation. That the fighting is a metaphor for gay sex. Another common interpretation is that the men represent women. There are even bizarre marxist intrepretations.

EDIT: Nieh, I would say that 1565 is spot on. Women are used as status, remove the necessity of such things and the symptoms would go away.

Now how one would go about that, I have no idea.

Sunny
03-19-2008, 04:40 PM
I feel like the main problem with misogyny in lyrics is less about the treatment of women than it is about the construction of masculinity. Make it so that men don't have to front like this in order to make them feel like they're men. Take the focus away from sexual virility as the main definition, and I think it would make a big difference.

i think you're making a great point. an objectifying (if not degrading) attitude towards women is a huge part of the mainstream definition of masculinity. i'm not even going to attempt to deconstruct why that is, or why the concept of a "pimp" who doesn't give a hot fuck about his "hoes" is such a desirable status to have.

SuperKnux
03-19-2008, 09:18 PM
Superknox, that's ridiculous, both on 300 and on Fight Club.

Anything can be interpreted to be anything, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The movie has very little to do with Friedrich Nietzche however. In fact modern day nihilists aren't really all that caught up in Nietzche either. That's such a bizarre twist, and then to take Nietzche's antiquated views on females as being relevant (or at least mention-worthy) with regards to Fight Club...

Wait, what? 300 (the movie) is very misogynist. I thought everybody knew that. (As I mentioned the theme in Fight Club is subtle.) But 300, um.. The misogynist attitude is there. Like, in broad daylight. I will give you the benefit of the doubt with Fight Club, but as for 300, no sir. I only saw that movie once, and that was before I became somewhat of a feminist and already I was put off.

But yeah, the whole nihilist thing.. Eh, I ain’t gunna touch on that one. There are themes of it in the movie and I am aware that Friedrich Nietzsche’s philosophy isn’t of relevance to “modern day” nihilists (or really at all). But the themes are in there, buddy.

Also I haven’t read the book myself so I am only referring the David Fincher movie. Something about calling the narrator Joe instead of Jack makes me feel like a fat person.

GreenTerror
03-19-2008, 10:13 PM
The misogynist theme in Fight Club isn’t as apparent as oh say, the movie 300? It’s a little more subtle. Since the movie has a Nihilism attitude (more specific Friedrich Nietzsche’s philosophy, whom was very sexist), it basically tries to say that “women aren’t needed in the world” or “it’s the women who hold the men down”, ya know things like that. What I do like about the movie though is the homoerotic undertones (which is totally different story) and that Edward Norton’s character is gay. Marla’s character can also just be depicted as just being meat or a good fuck (I have heard this argument quite a few times actually).

So it really isn’t that offensive, but I know some feminist friends who have been offended by it.

The whole Fight Club thing wasn't started because "women held them down everyday", it was because of the stress everyone and everything these men dealt with everyday. So a buncha dudes fight each other, that means it's oppressive towards women? And yeah, there were almost no women present in the movie other than Marla, who wasn't "just a fuck". In the end it's very apparent that Edward Norton's character had serious feelings for her and doesn't think of her as just a piece of meat.
If there was a movie with some girl having sex with any dude she can with no feelings for any of them, and generally disregard any respect for the male race, would this be considered sexism towards men to anyone? (Although it would most likely be flipped around to depicting a single woman being disrespected by all the men, rather than all men being disrespected by her.)The same question applies to crazy feminists who think all men are evil, does no one see the sexism there?
I also believe that if a woman dresses or acts in a overly-suggestive way, she's only provoking and encouraging being objectified, and yes, I'm aware that this isn't always the case.

wheelchairman
03-20-2008, 05:21 AM
Wait, what? 300 (the movie) is very misogynist. I thought everybody knew that. (As I mentioned the theme in Fight Club is subtle.) But 300, um.. The misogynist attitude is there. Like, in broad daylight. I will give you the benefit of the doubt with Fight Club, but as for 300, no sir. I only saw that movie once, and that was before I became somewhat of a feminist and already I was put off.

But yeah, the whole nihilist thing.. Eh, I ain’t gunna touch on that one. There are themes of it in the movie and I am aware that Friedrich Nietzsche’s philosophy isn’t of relevance to “modern day” nihilists (or really at all). But the themes are in there, buddy.

Also I haven’t read the book myself so I am only referring the David Fincher movie. Something about calling the narrator Joe instead of Jack makes me feel like a fat person.
The ridiculous and silly thing about calling 300 misogynist is that would make you a historical chauvinist (applying modern day morals and values to a past society). Spartan society was a male-dominated patriarchy. I mean you wouldn't expect to watch a film about the middle ages of England where women are of an equal standing to men? I mean wtf?

The themes aren't in there. You're interpreting in a way so that you can see them if you want to. That's the ridiculous part of the way you watch films. You've been able to offer no single example except a vague mention of an irrelevant philosopher (and you'd be surprised how relevant Nietzche can be today) and some vague mentions of the only female character in the film. Plus you're own interpretation on events which may or may not have had any actual relevance to the story line intended by the creators.

Sunny
03-20-2008, 06:26 AM
ok, i hate to derail Sam's thread, but this is such bs.


Wait, what? 300 (the movie) is very misogynist. I thought everybody knew that. (As I mentioned the theme in Fight Club is subtle.) But 300, um.. The misogynist attitude is there. Like, in broad daylight. I will give you the benefit of the doubt with Fight Club, but as for 300, no sir. I only saw that movie once, and that was before I became somewhat of a feminist and already I was put off.

clearly not "everybody knows that". uh. i saw it twice, and um, nope. not at all. i mean, it's a movie about a war, fought by *men*, so it's obvious the female characters were somewhat pushed aside.

i really have no clue where you got the misogynist thing. in fact, there were a bunch of scenes that showed the queen in a very empowering and respectful light (spoilers, beware)

- the part where the foreign guy tells the queen not to speak because she's a woman; she tells him she has every right to speak because "only Spartan women give birth to real men". oww burn?
- the part where the king turns to the queen for approval and only proceeds after she nods her head; generally, the way he treated her throughout the movie.
- when leonidas and the other foreign guy are speaking, and leonidas says something along the lines of "you don't know our women"
- the way she tried to take matters into her own hands by making a sacrifice
- and it was obvious she was 1) very strong 2) trained to use the sword
- she's shown as her husband's advisor and equal, and neither their sex scene or their parting scene show her as stereotypically feminine.

generally, i thought it showed women as powerful, courageous and equal to men. yes, the core of it - they are powerful because they make spartan babies - could be constructed as sexist... but come on now.

the only possibly misogynist portrayal is that of the super eroticized oracle, but it was beautifully done and let's face it, it's not like men's bodies weren't completely sexualized throughout the battle scenes.

Little_Miss_1565
03-20-2008, 07:57 AM
but it was beautifully done and let's face it, it's not like men's bodies weren't completely sexualized throughout the battle scenes.

I would just like to give this a hell yeah. Men's bodies with musculature of near comic perfection, oiled up and wearing speedos and capes into battle! 300 was just a totally awesome historic war movie comic adaptation that sexualized everybody, and feminists need to get with the third wave and recognize that we are all sexualized beings and it's about time to embrace it rather than be threatened by it.

But yeah, Sam was talking about *music*.

JohnnyNemesis
03-20-2008, 08:21 AM
I'm loling for all the wrong reasons.

Mota Boy
03-20-2008, 09:32 AM
If there is one thing that legitimately bothers me in regard to political correctness (this does tie in to your question) in pop culture, it's that I think it can be applied to too narrow a slice. For me, misogyny can be eyebrow-raising and off-putting if it's done too crudely (though in rap it's done so blatantly that it's long-since blasted beyond the point of outrage and into the realm ironic appreciation, but, I mean, I give music a lot of leeway. By the "too narrow a slice", I mean that claims of sexism apply to one single song or movie, when I think they should be viewed on a grander scale. I figure that most music is based upon a fairly strong emotion - hence the common "love" theme - and that certain percentages cover every range of strong human emotion. Men and women loving and hating each other is a constant theme, and so there will be plenty of songs that feature anger towards a particular woman, which is expanded when viewed solely within the confines of the single work (the theme is 100% of the song), but don't represent the entire catalog, nor the relative amount of time that emotion spends roiling around the artist's brain. The only song I can actually remember getting a reaction out of me was Matchbox 5's "Push", but the reaction was more like "Waaaaiiit a minute, is that guy saying what I think he's saying? Really? Naaaahhhh.... really?". I'm sure there have been others, and I can remember it happening other times, but I won't remember the songs.

For me though, if the artist is talking about *all* women (as opposed to a single, if unnamed, female), I do end up taking the whole thing less seriously.

I'm assuming, regarding recommendations, that you're already thinking of the only one that leaps into my mind - Prodigy's "Smack my Bitch Up" music video.

Re: Family Guy - Personally, I just think that Seth McFarlane is looking for the cheapest and easiest possible joke, and racism and sexism supply that, along with the added benefits of possessing "edge" and allowing him to pretend that he's actually tackling the subject, or providing some sort of sophisticated cultural commentary.

SuperKnux
03-20-2008, 12:01 PM
BTW, sorry for totally derailing this. I apoligize.

I'd also like to say that all these 300 posts that I have made are arguments and points that some of my feminist/women (whom are very well educated and highly intelligent) friends pointed out to me when we've debated on several things. I'm sure they can put it more in order or whatever, but nobody has that kind of time.

Anyway, what I got out of the movie (mind you, I've only seen it once and that was a year ago) was that the Spartans said little compliments about the women, and show little remorse for their women too. Even the points Sunny made are all a false sense of enpowerment. (Their women are the only ones who give birth to their "real men.") Honesty, they're real purpose was to remind the men that they weren't gay. : P

BTW, wasn't the main villian an effeminate-looking guy? I mean, go figure, the non-burly man who wears make up and jewelry is the guy they need to destroy. In other words, they need to destroy any sense of femininity. I know you'll all think it's a little extreme and totally dismiss my claims as ridiculous, but you have to admit that it is in there. I ain't just interpreting things my way, it really is in there.

I do like the movie for it's homoerotic tones though. Seems to me that men seem to favor one another and love one another more than women. Which makes me question my sexuality? Hm. What if I am secretly gay? : O

Alas, Wheelchairman hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that this movie is about historical point in the past. And that is very true. Trying to put our modern day morals to it isn't the best way to go about it. I was just trying to say that the movie is sexist.

So yeah, this was about music. Opps.

nieh
03-20-2008, 12:20 PM
I'd also like to say that all these 300 posts that I have made are arguments and points that some of my feminist/women (whom are very well educated and highly intelligent) friends pointed out to me when we've debated on several things.

I'd also like to point out that a large portion of the people that are disagreeing with you are also women, femenists and well educated and highly intelligent.

Sunny
03-20-2008, 02:22 PM
SuperKnux, i have no desire to further ruin Sam's thread, so i'm going to say two words: "confirmation bias". your bit on Xerxes only confirms what i previously suspected.

Wolfbutter
03-20-2008, 03:08 PM
Well, the amount of misogyny generally depends on the context of the singer/song. Sometimes it is intentional, and sometimes it is just a side effect or random outburst of how the person is feeling at the time, like what wheelchariman said about Eminem. If you just broke up with your girlfriend or something, you might feel that all women are dumb and stupid and cheating scum. You don't actually believe so, but because of what happened to you before, I find it to be an acceptable case.

However, when some guy goes "uhh yeah bitch get down on yo knees", which is what people like Ice Cube and Dr. Dre did, then yeah it's pretty stupid and I don't really enjoy hearing it. I'm not a women so I can't really speak for them, but I wouldn't really be offended, but I can't really explain why, to me it seems different than making fun of a black person or a gay person. It's just a crude comment that makes you sound like a total jerk. Little Miss 1565 was right, many musicians say that stuff to give themselves a bit of superiority.

Althogh, to be fair, a lot of women really do seel themselves out in the ghetto, so maybe artists are trying to depict what is really going on, in some sick twisted way? Like when Ice Cube was posing as a drug dealer and telling girls to suck his dick, he was just trying to portray to people how sick the ghetto really was. But other artist are obviously really stupid and make fun of women just to make themselves look cool.

But I don't understand, when some people call a man out for making fun of one women. How is Eminem saying "Bitch Ima kill you!" to his mother, misogynist, when it's just his mother? Just because she happens to be a women doesn't mean she is being discriminated against. Ditto for his wife. Or I think he may have said some other stuff in the song, I can't really remember, but that's not the point.

wheelchairman
03-20-2008, 03:21 PM
I was about to ask the mod of this forum to split this thread.

Then I realized how stupid that would look. *nods head and grants wish*

Vera
03-20-2008, 04:44 PM
I'll probably the first one to point out a film has homoerotic undertones. But Fight Club?

WTF.

Did we watch the same movie? Even if you get freakishly metaphorical with wcm and his "fighting = gay sex" thing, I don't see it.

SPOILARZZZ


I mean, hell, his whole personality splinters partly because of Marla's appearance in his life. This guy has some deep-rooted issue so he creates Tyler so he can be all he wants to be. A part of that is being with Marla. He's just so friggin' insane he doesn't realize it properly.

If she was just a piece of meat, why would he try to protect her from the spacemonkeys and Project Mayhem?

I agree with Per that Nietzsche's nihilism's exclusion of women doesn't really matter here. I always figured Marla was a manifestation that while men had all these issues, women weren't doing so gloriously themselves.

If you disregard Marla in the movie as a central character then you're definitely trying to read whatever you want to read into the film. I personally love unusual female characters like her.

And who the hell is Narrator going to be gay for? HIMSELF? Geez louise.

Oh and I haven't seen 300 but Spartan women had it better than women in Athens back in those days, who were pretty much tied to the house, only allowed to leave when buying food for their precious husband. They had no right to inherit anything. They were basically viewed as hugely inferior. Spartan women had to take care of stuff while their men were out fighting wars. They had way more rights than Athens women ever did.

And for your homoeroticism needs, the only reason homosexuality and pederasty were a-okay back in the day were because love between men was clearly higher than love between women and men as you know, them wimminz, kind of a lower type of human anyway. Like slaves.

Ah the good ol' days.

wheelchairman
03-21-2008, 05:08 AM
BTW, sorry for totally derailing this. I apoligize.

I'd also like to say that all these 300 posts that I have made are arguments and points that some of my feminist/women (whom are very well educated and highly intelligent) friends pointed out to me when we've debated on several things. I'm sure they can put it more in order or whatever, but nobody has that kind of time.
Just a matter of internet etiquette, when you get into a debate it's never wise to claim to have a very good, reliable and intelligent source and then to say that you will never be able to use it, but that it's the source of your own knowledge. It just comes off too mystical and I know that's not how you meant it. Either way it's of no concern of ours how smart your friends are, I doubt it would change anything.


Anyway, what I got out of the movie (mind you, I've only seen it once and that was a year ago) was that the Spartans said little compliments about the women, and show little remorse for their women too. Even the points Sunny made are all a false sense of enpowerment. (Their women are the only ones who give birth to their "real men.") Honesty, they're real purpose was to remind the men that they weren't gay. : P
This is an interpretation and is thus irrelevant. Although calling a movie misogynist for not having the mail characters compliment and mourn enough over the women, well christ you must watch some shitty movies.... o.0


BTW, wasn't the main villian an effeminate-looking guy? I mean, go figure, the non-burly man who wears make up and jewelry is the guy they need to destroy. In other words, they need to destroy any sense of femininity. I know you'll all think it's a little extreme and totally dismiss my claims as ridiculous, but you have to admit that it is in there. I ain't just interpreting things my way, it really is in there.
Maybe you didn't hear Xerxes voice? It was probably the manliest thing in the movie. Either way if you had watched the movie with an open mind you would've noticed an important detail. It's told by the survivor of the battle of Thermopylae. Yes the survivor and victor of a battle is telling history. That's the beauty of the movie. (And naturally he embellishes on the evils of the enemy. Historically speaking, the immortals weren't actually immortal either!!!! And the Persian empire didn't actually have crab people to perform executions!!!)


I do like the movie for it's homoerotic tones though. Seems to me that men seem to favor one another and love one another more than women. Which makes me question my sexuality? Hm. What if I am secretly gay? : O

Actually you've said that you didn't like the movie. You barely remember it. You have little proof for the over and blatant misogyny in the film (and no, a lack of compliments is not blatant misogyny) and now you're claiming homosexuality is abundant. I mean you can interpret things all you want, but it really seems apparent to me that you don't actually watch the films you watch.


Alas, Wheelchairman hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that this movie is about historical point in the past. And that is very true. Trying to put our modern day morals to it isn't the best way to go about it. I was just trying to say that the movie is sexist.

The past isn't sexist. The past just is. It's stupid to say that ancient societies were sexist and mean.

batfish
03-21-2008, 12:20 PM
A song that struck me as super-misogynist was Rolling Stones - Under My Thumb
http://www.lyricsmania.com/lyrics/rolling_stones_lyrics_278/forty_licks_lyrics_3067/under_my_thumb_lyrics_36086.html

It's a good example of 1565's point



Superknox, that's ridiculous, both on 300 and on Fight Club.

Anything can be interpreted to be anything, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The movie has very little to do with Friedrich Nietzche however. In fact modern day nihilists aren't really all that caught up in Nietzche either. That's such a bizarre twist, and then to take Nietzche's antiquated views on females as being relevant (or at least mention-worthy) with regards to Fight Club...

Fight Club always came across to me as being very Nietzchen influenced, with the whole Apollo/Dionysus character split.
Not agreeing with the point that it's misogynist, but Superknox bringing Nietzsche into it wasn't so far-fetched.

Vera
03-23-2008, 10:15 AM
Nihilism in Fight Club is kind of obvious to most people. But I don't think misogyny ties into it.

Jesus
03-24-2008, 10:41 AM
There isn't basically any misogyny in contemporary western mainstream music (too commercially risky). In rap it's more because of expectation (like a yeaaaaaaaha or woohoo in offspring songs) and commercial manufacturing than the result of actual misogynist meaning imo. Hell from an economics point of view rap music is prolly the best for women, considering how many cute girls they have to hire for those clips! ;) Or you'd have to consider model agencies and the whole fashion industry misogynist, cause they do the same shit, selling an image and not reality. The goals are money and success, not hatred towards women.

Sunny
03-25-2008, 12:10 PM
i.. i'm not even going to touch that. not with a 10 foot pole.

Vera
03-25-2008, 01:23 PM
For some bullshit, Radar Magazine "rounds up decade's most misogynistic movies (http://radarmagazine.com/features/2008/02/sexist_movies_katherine_heigl_superbad_the_devil_w ears_prada.php)".

This is a good example for somebody defining misogyny as "I didn't like this movie!". I mean, some movies I haven't seen so I'll with-hold judgment regarding those but the ones I have seen .. WTF!

Sunny
03-25-2008, 01:31 PM
something people need to understand: just because woman gets naked in a movie or is portrayed as a mean person doesn't mean that the movie itself is misogynist.

first we have some people with the "lol, there is no misogyny ANYWHERE EVAR" pile of shit, then we have the "omg woman gets naked, MOVIE MUST BE MISOGYNIST" pile of shit. both are equally fucking annoying.

oh, and Radar magazine has a "Yo Spencer!" advice column with megadouche Spencer Pratt solving your most urgent dilemmas. that's all i have to say about their credibility.

Vera
05-02-2008, 12:25 PM
I hate bumping this silly thread - and I hope Sam's school assignment is going well! - but I just have to rant and I don't feel like doing it on LJ.

I did some random feminist blog surfing today after I found out about some British stand-up comedian molesting a girl on-stage in the name of comedy (ugh).

I ran into a blog which had a collection of feminist pictures on flickr and while most of them were cool and like, not disagreeable, one just made me go "EURGH!".

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alicetiara/542921642/

..okay, cheap lolz on the fact that he doesn't look like Prince Charming. What-the-fuck-ever. Pro-choice means the choice to keep the baby, as well. The movie was not preaching OMG DON'T KILL 'EM BABIEZ, it was like, okay, so you decided to keep the baby, that's your choice to make - now how are going to deal with it? And it ends up being a very sweet movie.

But this comment in particular: "These type of movie (woman\girl gets pregnanted and has the baby without reasonable explanation) is the type of misogynist garbage that anger me, but pleases misogynist men."

WHAT. Reasonable explanation? I'm sorry, but should every woman's automatic response to pregnancy be "omg how am I going to get rid of it?" and then if she wants to keep it, she should have a *special* reasoning for it? I think it should be the other way around. That is, I get pregnant and then, if and only IF, after reasonable consideration of my circumstances financially, relations to the baby's father, etc etc, I come to the conclusion that I could not bring up this baby successfully, then I'll get an abortion. You know? I'm not obligated to keep it, but I'm not obligated to get rid of it, either. In other words, IT'S MY CHOICE.

ghfghkfhkdghldf

Okay I'm done here, I think.

Remind me to buy this flick on DVD, though. :D