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Sunny
03-21-2008, 08:31 AM
New York man files complaint against Polish president for anti-gay marriage speech

WARSAW, Poland: A gay New York man said Wednesday he has filed a complaint against the Polish president for using images of him and his partner in a national speech to warn against homosexual marriage.

A brief video clip of Brendan Fay's wedding with his partner Tom Moulton was woven into President Lech Kaczynski's televised address to the nation Monday night.

The video, along with a photo of the couple's marriage certificate, was shown as the president warned against the dangers of adopting the EU's new treaty and its Charter of Fundamental Rights, which Kaczynski says could open the door to same-sex marriage in Poland.

"An article of the charter, due to no clear definition of marriage as a union between a man and a woman, may go against the universally accepted moral order in Poland and force our country to introduce an institution in conflict with the moral convictions of the decided majority of our country," Kaczynski said as the images flashed across the screen.

It was not immediately clear how the images were obtained.

Fay said that Polish immigrants and reporters began calling him Tuesday, asking how he felt about having his image used in the address.

"My initial reaction was one of surprise and shock really," said Fay, a longtime gay activist who is a co-founder of the All Inclusive St. Patrick's Day Parade in Queens, New York.

"I started getting translations of the phrase the president used as the image appeared... My reaction was just really... I thought, 'oh my God, what an insult' ... Tom and I are just a couple, like any other couple around the world."

Fay, a documentary filmmaker who was born in Ireland but is now a New York resident, said he submitted his complaint to the Polish Consulate in New York on Tuesday.

"Our images clearly were being used in a campaign by the president of Poland against lesbian and gay persons, and fostering intolerance and fear among the people of Poland," he said on Wednesday.

Moulton, who is a pediatric oncologist and met Fay at Sunday Mass, said EU countries that permit same-sex marriage have not suffered from it.

"It has not brought down their economy, it hasn't destroyed any of the heterosexual marriages... it hasn't brought down the families. If anything, it has strengthened the families," Moulton said.

There is little support for same-sex marriage in Poland, a deeply Catholic country which joined the European Union in 2004. The Polish constitution states that marriage is only between a man and a woman.

As mayor of Warsaw, Kaczynski refused to grant parade permits for gay rights marches, while his twin brother, former prime minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski, has said "it's not in the interest of any society to increase the number of homosexuals."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/19/europe/EU-GEN-Poland-Gay-Rights.php


i'm gonna cry. =/

wheelchairman
03-21-2008, 09:15 AM
Fay said that Polish immigrants [...] began calling him Tuesday
Did you call him?

Does anyone actually know how many EU countries allow gay marriage?

Anyways I hope that guy wins that lawsuit.

IamSam
03-21-2008, 07:36 PM
Did you call him?

Does anyone actually know how many EU countries allow gay marriage?

Anyways I hope that guy wins that lawsuit.

On the reverse side I hope that Poland sends some ex-KGB types over to New York to poison the man's water with polonium. Just for spite.

PS: Sunny, that is a really good picture of you.

HornyPope
03-21-2008, 11:10 PM
I don't see what the president did wrong, unless the images were copyrighted or something.

sKratch
04-06-2008, 09:47 PM
I don't think there's any lawsuit... it's just a complaint.

Lithuanian Offspring
04-19-2008, 04:25 PM
Poland is gay.

Cock Joke
04-19-2008, 07:58 PM
That situation's pretty funny if you think about it.

killboybowerhead
04-20-2008, 01:06 AM
i lived in poland for a few years.. amazing country, but yeah catholic as fuck. Gays arent mistreated there any more than here. I mean hey, they didnt use an image of a polish gay couple haha.

the Alternate
04-25-2008, 04:26 AM
This sort of shit like homosexual marriages etc. has the bad end. It is another signal of the "end of days" for this civilization, I mean Western Europe.

Dirty Magician (Pole)
04-26-2008, 05:59 AM
I live in Poland, I'm Polish so I have to say something. Yeah, it is a very catholic country but like HornyPope ( that's a very uncatholic nickname :p ) I don't see anything wrong in Kaczynski's words. He didn't attacked gays, he just feared that by adopting the EU's new treaty our country will allow gay couples to get married. And don't get me wrong - I'm not a Kaczynski fan but the whole thing that happened after his speach isn;t definetly sucha a scandal.

By the way... I have to say that your language is very easy. I mean, I'm not a specialist and I sometimes do mistakes, but for me it's the easiest language of all.

Sunny
04-27-2008, 08:03 PM
I live in Poland, I'm Polish so I have to say something. Yeah, it is a very catholic country but like HornyPope ( that's a very uncatholic nickname :p ) I don't see anything wrong in Kaczynski's words. He didn't attacked gays, he just feared that by adopting the EU's new treaty our country will allow gay couples to get married. And don't get me wrong - I'm not a Kaczynski fan but the whole thing that happened after his speach isn;t definetly sucha a scandal.


yeah, he didn't mean anything bad by it, he just felt like going on TV to say gay people don't deserve basic rights.... oh wait!

if you don't see how that's 1) hateful 2) an attack, then you're a living, breathing illustration of what's wrong with Poland.

how exactly is gay marriage scary? how the fuck is it anything to fear?

IamSam
04-27-2008, 08:08 PM
yeah, he didn't mean anything bad by it, he just felt like going on TV to say gay people don't deserve basic rights.... oh wait!

if you don't see how that's 1) hateful 2) an attack, then you're a living, breathing illustration of what's wrong with Poland.

how exactly is gay marriage scary? how the fuck is it anything to fear?

Haven't you watched Star Wars? All those men marching around in white plastic suits, tight gray pants, and knee high boots? Oh...I'd fear it.

Llamas
04-27-2008, 10:31 PM
:-/ I've been planning on moving back to Europe, Eastern this time... and I've been trying to do as much research on the best countries to teach in... I've seen on several occasions that Poland is so incredibly Catholic that it's not a good place to live if you're liberal... or gay. So I know I don't want to go there, which is sad because my heritage is half Polish and I am interested in the country... at the same time, though, while I haven't read anything that says Slovakia, Czech or Hungary are as bad, I also haven't read anything that says they're not like that. And it's gonna be one of those countries... but the point is that it's really sad that a country has someone in power who actually does something like that. It's certainly not illegal... but it's just shitty.

It's also very sad that Dirty Magician doesn't see what's wrong with it...

Vera
04-28-2008, 07:14 AM
Haven't you watched Star Wars? All those men marching around in white plastic suits, tight gray pants, and knee high boots? Oh...I'd fear it.

Even if that made any sense at all (yeah, there's never been a dude more pro-gay rights than good ol' Palpatine, that liberal fella!), it wouldn't be funny.

llamas, come to Finland. We're just as miserable as all those East-European countries but more advanced and far less religious.

Sunny
04-28-2008, 07:27 AM
:-/ I've been planning on moving back to Europe, Eastern this time... and I've been trying to do as much research on the best countries to teach in... I've seen on several occasions that Poland is so incredibly Catholic that it's not a good place to live if you're liberal... or gay. So I know I don't want to go there, which is sad because my heritage is half Polish and I am interested in the country

it honestly depends on where you go. if you end up in an urban center such as Warsaw or Krakow, you are quite likely to encounter progressive, pro-EU, liberal people. from my experience (and according to the polls) Kaczynski supporters are usually... less educated, very religious with far less knowledge of the outside world, and tend to live outside of major cities. as you know, i went to high school there, and it was a pretty progressive and open environment. relatively speaking, of course.

if you were to date another girl, though, you could run into a problem if you decided to hold hands in public or stuff like that. i don't know if that's a concern for you, but uh, yeah. you wouldn't get beat up (since you're a girl) but you'd probably get stared at or harassed.

Rag Doll
04-28-2008, 08:13 AM
eugh. that's just so terrible.

and like....why show pictures of gay couples? i mean seriously, it was probably a picture of two VERY happy men in suits/tuxedos. how is that anything negative? buh.

Sunny
04-28-2008, 08:31 AM
yeah, that's exactly what it was. and why? well, the whole mentality of the anti-gay movement in Poland is very much like the behavior of 7 year olds. "EWWW! he's holding hands with a BOY!!! BOY COOTIES!"

i guess we shouldn't expect more sophistication from people who oppose gay marriage because "it's gross" and "god said it's wrong", followed closely by "what's next, we're going to legalize bestiality and pedophilia?!?". for srs, i shit you not.

IamSam
04-28-2008, 09:37 AM
Even if that made any sense at all (yeah, there's never been a dude more pro-gay rights than good ol' Palpatine, that liberal fella!), it wouldn't be funny.

llamas, come to Finland. We're just as miserable as all those East-European countries but more advanced and far less religious.

Yeah...after typing it I noticed it failed rather miserably. Thanks for reinforcing that!;)

HornyPope
04-28-2008, 04:24 PM
yeah, he didn't mean anything bad by it, he just felt like going on TV to say gay people don't deserve basic rights.... oh wait!

if you don't see how that's 1) hateful 2) an attack, then you're a living, breathing illustration of what's wrong with Poland.

how exactly is gay marriage scary? how the fuck is it anything to fear?

There is nothing's wrong with being hateful, or at least, being hateful shouldn't stop one from expressing his opinion.

The president has his own ethics and he also wants to defend the religious institutions of his country. Obviously some people are going to be offended in the proces, but that's part of democracy.

HornyPope
04-28-2008, 04:53 PM
:-/ I've been planning on moving back to Europe, Eastern this time... and I've been trying to do as much research on the best countries to teach in... I've seen on several occasions that Poland is so incredibly Catholic that it's not a good place to live if you're liberal... or gay. So I know I don't want to go there, which is sad because my heritage is half Polish and I am interested in the country... at the same time, though, while I haven't read anything that says Slovakia, Czech or Hungary are as bad, I also haven't read anything that says they're not like that. And it's gonna be one of those countries... but the point is that it's really sad that a country has someone in power who actually does something like that. It's certainly not illegal... but it's just shitty.

It's also very sad that Dirty Magician doesn't see what's wrong with it...


If you're such an open-minded liberal, you shouldn't have a problem with travelling to another country whose customs and ethics are alien to yours. Keep your sexual curiosity away from public eyes or be prepared to take shit from these backwards, close-minded Slavs.

Llamas
04-28-2008, 08:25 PM
llamas, come to Finland. We're just as miserable as all those East-European countries but more advanced and far less religious.
lol ;D But I couldn't find a job teaching English in Finland. :(


it honestly depends on where you go. if you end up in an urban center such as Warsaw or Krakow, you are quite likely to encounter progressive, pro-EU, liberal people. from my experience (and according to the polls) Kaczynski supporters are usually... less educated, very religious with far less knowledge of the outside world, and tend to live outside of major cities. as you know, i went to high school there, and it was a pretty progressive and open environment. relatively speaking, of course.

if you were to date another girl, though, you could run into a problem if you decided to hold hands in public or stuff like that. i don't know if that's a concern for you, but uh, yeah. you wouldn't get beat up (since you're a girl) but you'd probably get stared at or harassed.
That's good to know, actually. I figure the second paragraph is rather true in most of Eastern Europe, not really a big concern. And it's not like people here don't stare or harass people in such situations, haha. I'm sure it's a bit different there, though.


If you're such an open-minded liberal, you shouldn't have a problem with travelling to another country whose customs and ethics are alien to yours. Keep your sexual curiosity away from public eyes or be prepared to take shit from these backwards, close-minded Slavs.

Well I don't have a problem traveling to such places. However, if I'm going to live there for an undetermined amount of time, I definitely want to know what I'm getting myself into, and that I'm not going to endanger my life somehow... or at the very least, piss off a whole lot of people. I've heard on many accounts that Poland is extremely Catholic and conservative... and part of leaving the US for me includes getting AWAY from some of that stuff, haha. Going to a country that's the same in that regard defeats a small part of the point.

HornyPope
04-28-2008, 09:51 PM
I guess both conservatives and liberals seek out environments where they feel comfortable.
You should consider Romania. It's fun place where anything goes, which I guess makes it pretty liberal. Beware of theft though.

Llamas
04-28-2008, 09:54 PM
I guess both conservatives and liberals seek out environments where they feel comfortable.
You should consider Romania. It's fun place where anything goes, which I guess makes it pretty liberal. Beware of theft though.

Romania hasn't come up in search for countries where it's relatively easy to find jobs teaching English, though. The top countries in Eastern Europe for teaching English seem to be Czech, Slovakia, Poland, and Hungary.

Vera
04-28-2008, 11:52 PM
Wouldn't you have to know the language of the country in question, too, though?

Llamas
04-29-2008, 12:16 AM
Actually, no. You'd think so... but in the countries mentioned, they'll hire a native English-speaker (especially one with teaching experience) without knowing the language. I guess they'll start you out teaching intermediate classes, where the kids already know a bit of the language- usually natives to the country teach intro classes, and native English speakers teach the upper levels. If I move to Prague, though, my friend who's from there said he will teach me Czech if I teach him English. So that works out well.

Vera
04-29-2008, 12:59 AM
I think such schools are in the minority, but I suppose they're out there.

Llamas
04-29-2008, 02:13 AM
Not such a minority in a lot of Eastern Europe, though. I've talked to a lot of people who either live in Eastern Europe, or were there teaching previously, and I've heard over and over that it's virtually unheard of for a native English speaker (regardless of whether or not they speak the language there) not to find a job teaching English within about 2 weeks of moving.

My friend is already in contact with a few schools in Prague for me, and they've basically said I don't need to speak Czech, just that English is my native language... and that it's helpful that I already teach, and that I definitely should make sure my degree is finished cause they'd pay me a higher salary.

Wow... we're off topic. haha, whoops!

the_GoDdEsS
04-29-2008, 04:31 AM
Not such a minority in a lot of Eastern Europe, though. I've talked to a lot of people who either live in Eastern Europe, or were there teaching previously, and I've heard over and over that it's virtually unheard of for a native English speaker (regardless of whether or not they speak the language there) not to find a job teaching English within about 2 weeks of moving.


Having been in this business for almost three years I can confirm that this is true and not something somebody has heard of. At least for Slovakia and especially for the capital cities. Language schools are constantly expanding and hiring new people. And natives are rather valuable to them. You don't even need a college or uni degree or any teaching experience. And of course you don't need to speak the language of the country, at all. Not even with beginner levels, even though that's a bit more challenging.

Dirty Magician (Pole)
04-29-2008, 07:00 AM
It's also very sad that Dirty Magician doesn't see what's wrong with it...

You just don't understand the mantaly of people living in eastern Europe. After almost 60 years od communism ( which means - one car and only few thing in the shop ) people are not used to gays and gay marriages. It is also known that Poland is a very catholic country ( thanks to the pope Jan Paul II and plenty of other priests who fought with communism ). We're not so social free people in the US or UK, so you have to understand that.

Sunny
04-29-2008, 07:21 AM
Dirty Magician, with all due respect, that's such a bullshit cop out. I grew up in Poland, my entire family's Polish, i've lived there pretty much my entire life. i've met plenty of progressive people; the only difference is that instead of being satisfied with what they've been taught, they decided to make up their own minds, go out and learn about the world.


it's about time people stop using the "well you don't get our mentality" bullshit and open their eyes to the world around them. you're not "socially free" because you're ok with perpetuating the status quo and repeating the same ignorant bullshit you hear on TV. it sickens me. Poland will never change if young Polish people choose to remain complacent and make excuses such as "it's what we are and you need to understand it".


There is nothing's wrong with being hateful, or at least, being hateful shouldn't stop one from expressing his opinion.

The president has his own ethics and he also wants to defend the religious institutions of his country. Obviously some people are going to be offended in the proces, but that's part of democracy.

what offends me is not the president's hatred of gay people, necessarily... it's the fact that he is using his office to push his *religious* agenda. it's his personal view influenced by his religious beliefs, which he is entitled to... however, i don't think it is appropriate of him to broadcast it on TV in the form of a public service announcement. i see it as a preposterous abuse of power. i personally believe in separation of church and state, and find it an essential element of democracy. fear mongering and hate speech on religious grounds should not be tolerated, especially not from a leader of a goddamn EU member state.

HornyPope
04-29-2008, 10:31 AM
what offends me is not the president's hatred of gay people, necessarily... it's the fact that he is using his office to push his *religious* agenda. it's his personal view influenced by his religious beliefs, which he is entitled to... however, i don't think it is appropriate of him to broadcast it on TV in the form of a public service announcement. i see it as a preposterous abuse of power. i personally believe in separation of church and state, and find it an essential element of democracy. fear mongering and hate speech on religious grounds should not be tolerated, especially not from a leader of a goddamn EU member state.
It's good that you have such a progressive stance. However, there are millions of Polish nationals that do not. And unlike you, they don't have the mobility to travel the world until they find a place that is consistent with their ideology. They turn to Polish government to defend their conservative values against the onslaught of Western liberalism.


P.S. Llama, you're American (and it really shows from what I can tell). People are going to give you shit anywhere you go in Eastern Europe as soon as you walk out of the Tourist-accomodation-neighborhoods. The only difference is in how much shit they're going to give you.
I think Albania is the most American-friendly nation of them all. Have you considered Tirana?

Sunny
04-29-2008, 10:57 AM
i disagree, i don't think this is about mobility or social standing. perhaps it's a matter of where you live or who you hang out with... but honestly, i know many people - even from the older generation - who don't have passports, haven't left the country except to like... go to Slovakia (if that), and somehow they manage to maintain an open mind. maybe they are exceptions, i don't know. but to claim that the only open-minded people are those with the means to travel the world is just crazy.


a progressive attitude is not something you acquire through wealth or travel, although those can definitely broaden your horizons. however, at its core, it's primarily a matter of humility and desire for knowledge/better understanding of other people. and frankly, if a 80 y/o lady who has never left the country can find the openness of mind to question what she has been taught, so can a goddamn teenager with access to the internet. honestly, the "we're isolated from the evil western world, don't blame us" excuse might've worked 30 years ago. in 2008? they should just admit that they remain ignorant voluntarily and get it over with.

HornyPope
04-29-2008, 11:27 AM
I didn't mean that the open-minded people are the ones with the means to travel. I meant that some people have the luxury to seek out a place where they fit ("fuck this country, im going to another one!"), whereas others have to constantly fight to maintain their homeland in the way they would like.

Progressive atittude is not necessarily something that is good, and neither is education in the way that you imply. Why should Poles learn more about homosexuality and deviant behavior in foreign countries? If they are happy to live by the Bible, so be it. Who are you to judge their values?

Sunny
04-29-2008, 11:51 AM
i am not judging their values. i am judging their desire to impose said values on other people who do not subscribe to their belief system. if the catholic church wants to declare that gay marriage and birth control are wrong, it is their right - but creating secular laws to support that belief is very problematic. it's not about thinking gay marriage is wrong or not.

it's important to keep in mind that catholic marriage (before god, within the church) and the marriage homosexual couples desire don't have a lot in common. the latter is basically a bunch of secular (financial...) privileges that have nothing to do with the spiritual nature of religious marriage. i find it strange when people act as if these two kinds of marriage are somehow synonymous. gay couples don't want the church's approval or blessing, and allowing civil unions should have liittle to do with the church and its standing on homosexual relationships... just like the church should have little to do with overall politics of the state.

Llamas
04-29-2008, 12:37 PM
Having been in this business for almost three years I can confirm that this is true and not something somebody has heard of. At least for Slovakia and especially for the capital cities. Language schools are constantly expanding and hiring new people. And natives are rather valuable to them. You don't even need a college or uni degree or any teaching experience. And of course you don't need to speak the language of the country, at all. Not even with beginner levels, even though that's a bit more challenging.

I'm really glad you posted about this. I've wanted to contact you and ask you about it, but I recall you having PMs turned off, so I didn't know how else to talk to you since you don't really post anymore. Thanks for this, it helps a lot to know it for sure instead of just think it's pretty sure. :)


P.S. Llama, you're American (and it really shows from what I can tell). People are going to give you shit anywhere you go in Eastern Europe as soon as you walk out of the Tourist-accomodation-neighborhoods. The only difference is in how much shit they're going to give you.
I think Albania is the most American-friendly nation of them all. Have you considered Tirana?

When did I say I wanted to go somewhere that's American-friendly?? I just said that, if given the option between a country that's more conservative and one that's more liberal, I'm likely to pick the more liberal one. And the countries I'm looking at are only Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, and Hungary, because those are the countries that interest me and the ones where it's easiest to find a job teaching English.

Anyway, Sunny isn't saying that the entire nation should have to learn our beliefs, or the beliefs of other countries. But imposing religious beliefs over an entire country just screams "wrong". In what case is this ever a good thing? You seem to think that everyone in Poland is Catholic and conservative... what about the progressives in Poland who can't get out of the country? They're stuck under a president who forces his religious agenda down their throats. This is something we've come a long way fighting against in the US. It's very sad to see it happening in other countries.

Vera
04-29-2008, 12:58 PM
This is something we've come a long way fighting against in the US. It's very sad to see it happening in other countries.

God bless America!

Sunny
04-29-2008, 01:57 PM
and i'm proud to be an american :cool:
where at least i know i'm free :D
and i won't forget the ones who died who gave that right to me
and i proudly stand up next to you and defend her still today :mad:
cause there ain't no doubt i love this land :o
god bless the U.S.A!

HornyPope
04-29-2008, 02:02 PM
i am not judging their values. i am judging their desire to impose said values on other people who do not subscribe to their belief system. if the catholic church wants to declare that gay marriage and birth control are wrong, it is their right - but creating secular laws to support that belief is very problematic. it's not about thinking gay marriage is wrong or not.

You're obviously welcome to share your opinion, better yet you may vote in the next elections, but it's going to be decided by majority vote like all democratic states.
What if the majority of people support the Church? They believe they need government to protect religious institutions against modern liberalism.



it's important to keep in mind that catholic marriage (before god, within the church) and the marriage homosexual couples desire don't have a lot in common.

That's only if you believe in the seperation of the church and state.


When did I say I wanted to go somewhere that's American-friendly?? I just said that, if given the option between a country that's more conservative and one that's more liberal, I'm likely to pick the more liberal one. And the countries I'm looking at are only Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, and Hungary, because those are the countries that interest me and the ones where it's easiest to find a job teaching English.

Llama, I really don't give a shit where you go.

Sunny
04-29-2008, 02:32 PM
You're obviously welcome to share your opinion, better yet you may vote in the next elections, but it's going to be decided by majority vote like all democratic states.
What if the majority of people support the Church? They believe they need government to protect religious institutions against modern liberalism.



while Catholicism is the dominant religion in Poland, and many Poles would say they "support the church", let's not forget that many don't subscribe to the more radical teachings. many Polish Catholics use birth control, practice sex before marriage, and don't believe gay people should be discriminated against by the state. whether that's hypocritical or not is not up to me to judge, but the fact remains that many Polish people identify as Catholic without subscribing to the extremist anti-BC, anti-gay viewpoint. thus, people like Kaczynski don't really speak for the majority.

on another note, since we're talking about basing national policy on biblical excerpts and separation of church and state, how's this:

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s".

the Bible repeatedly states that god's kingdom is not of this world, and that worldly authority should preside over worldly manners, just like god has authority over matters of the spiritual.
i dare say that the ability to receive tax breaks, automatically inherit money after your spouse's death, share health insurance and enjoy simplified immigration procedures are very much matters of this world which the church, according to the bible, should have no interest in.

HornyPope
04-29-2008, 07:03 PM
while Catholicism is the dominant religion in Poland, and many Poles would say they "support the church", let's not forget that many don't subscribe to the more radical teachings. many Polish Catholics use birth control, practice sex before marriage, and don't believe gay people should be discriminated against by the state. whether that's hypocritical or not is not up to me to judge, but the fact remains that many Polish people identify as Catholic without subscribing to the extremist anti-BC, anti-gay viewpoint. thus, people like Kaczynski don't really speak for the majority.

I don't know demographics in Poland. If they don't agree with Kaczynski's "radical" stance, they can turn to another government for all I care. My only point was that these conservatives can believe whatever the hell they want, and it's not your liberal, Western-educated opinion that invalidates their ethical values.


the Bible repeatedly states that god's kingdom is not of this world, and that worldly authority should preside over worldly manners, just like god has authority over matters of the spiritual.

The role of God in the affairs of the state has been contested since Charlemagne, probably earlier, and I'm sure there are enough passages on the Catholics' end to support their stance.

Rag Doll
04-29-2008, 07:51 PM
They're stuck under a president who forces his religious agenda down their throats. This is something we've come a long way fighting against in the US.

Seriously?

sKratch
04-29-2008, 10:07 PM
I gotta say I'm pretty much with Vlad here. I'm willing to bet most people in Poland do not want an open homosexual community and support the suppression of certain gay rights. Their president, in that respect, is doing what his constituents want him to do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Poland#Gay_life_in_Poland

Llamas
04-29-2008, 10:16 PM
God bless America!


and i'm proud to be an american
where at least i know i'm free :D
and i won't forget the ones who died who gave that right to me
and i proudly stand up next to you and defend her still today :mad:
cause there ain't no doubt i love this land :o
god bless the U.S.A!

lol... But fuck you for getting that song stuck in my head =(


it's going to be decided by majority vote like all democratic states.
lol. majority vote... not in the USA!!! :D


Seriously?
Well, I suppose I mean that, when you look at our nation's past, we've come a long way. When you compare how it is now to how it was 100 years ago. We still fucking suck, though, and that's what makes it all sadder... that there are countries that haven't even come THIS far.

Vikica
04-30-2008, 02:01 AM
problems with making gay marriages legal are not always just religious. we have a case here in Zagreb. if you're gay for you it's recomended not to go out on saturday night 'cause you could end up in hospital beaten up like a punching bag. there's nothing you can say or do to stop so called BBB to beat the hell out of you. you don't even have to look at them in a wrong way, you could get a black eye. the fact you're gay is enough.
BBB is short for Bad Blue Boys, who originally support the Zagreb football (soccer) team called Dinamo. the real BBB are supporting the team and don't make any problems but the so called BBB are just looking for an excuse to make mess.
I hope everyone understood why I gave this example.

P.S. about teaching english in foreign countries
I'm in a language highschool (sometimes you wouldn't say so 'cause I don't practice my english as much as I use to) and we have english and german native speaker teaching. they don't have to know Croatian so they could teach. the bad thing is that they don't teach everyone, just the bilingual classes (english) and advanced german classes. as I don't learn german anymore and I'm not in a bilingual class I don't have a chance to participate.
:(
but Italian is a great language to learn and speak. :)

Llamas
04-30-2008, 02:48 AM
problems with making gay marriages legal are not always just religious. we have a case here in Zagreb. if you're gay for you it's recomended not to go out on saturday night 'cause you could end up in hospital beaten up like a punching bag. there's nothing you can say or do to stop so called BBB to beat the hell out of you. you don't even have to look at them in a wrong way, you could get a black eye. the fact you're gay is enough.
BBB is short for Bad Blue Boys, who originally support the Zagreb football (soccer) team called Dinamo. the real BBB are supporting the team and don't make any problems but the so called BBB are just looking for an excuse to make mess.
I hope everyone understood why I gave this example.
So... because there are people who are extremely intolerant of gays, gay marriage shouldn't be legalized? To me, your example actually gives more reason TO legalize it. Then you're working toward having the government on the side of those getting abused.

But you are right. I have two friends from Zagreb who are gay. When they were in Austria with me, they were both afraid for anyone to find out they were gay. I didn't understand why they were afraid, and when my roommate told me she had a girlfriend, she was so so scared of my reaction. When I didn't freak out, she bought me coffee for being "so nice" and having to "deal with such a freak". The guy actually never told me he was gay, but I figured it out pretty easily. He really never told anyone. My roommate told me later about how gays are treated in Croatia, and how she's known people who ended up in the hospital, even in Zagreb which is supposedly a more progressive city, isn't it?


P.S. about teaching english in foreign countries
I'm in a language highschool (sometimes you wouldn't say so 'cause I don't practice my english as much as I use to) and we have english and german native speaker teaching. they don't have to know Croatian so they could teach. the bad thing is that they don't teach everyone, just the bilingual classes (english) and advanced german classes. as I don't learn german anymore and I'm not in a bilingual class I don't have a chance to participate.
:(
My friend from Split is teaching German at a language high school now (in Split) :) But she obviously speaks Croatian natively... German and English are second and third languages for her.

sKratch
04-30-2008, 07:11 AM
So... because there are people who are extremely intolerant of gays, gay marriage shouldn't be legalized? To me, your example actually gives more reason TO legalize it. Then you're working toward having the government on the side of those getting abused.


I don't see at all how that makes sense... Why on Earth would a government antagonize the majority of its people? Legalizing gay marriage would in no way curb the nation's intolerance of homosexuality, and definitely in no way curb violent abuse. I bet most Croatians don't support the kind of actions taken by this "BBB" and probably most people want everyone regardless of sexuality to be able to live in peace, but that's a far cry from wanting gay marriage to be legalized.

My strategy was never to ask my mom to buy me more sweatpants when I got made fun of for my clothes in elementary school.

Sunny
04-30-2008, 08:28 AM
I don't know demographics in Poland. If they don't agree with Kaczynski's "radical" stance, they can turn to another government for all I care. My only point was that these conservatives can believe whatever the hell they want, and it's not your liberal, Western-educated opinion that invalidates their ethical values.


they can believe whatever the hell they want, and by the same logic, i can believe what the hell i want as well. they certainly don't respect my ethical values, either.

i find it somewhat odd you keep implying that a liberal attitude is a product of Western education. i think it's a common misconception about Eastern Europe - that "liberalism" used pejoratively is purely an influence of the West. however, believe it or not, Poland has a history of liberal thinkers, and progressive social stances are not just a sign of rotten, loose Western morals spreading to the east.
on top of that, do you honestly believe tolerance and compassion towards people other than yourself is a product of Western thought?


I gotta say I'm pretty much with Vlad here. I'm willing to bet most people in Poland do not want an open homosexual community and support the suppression of certain gay rights. Their president, in that respect, is doing what his constituents want him to do.

I honestly believe "most people" are confused and freaked out by the changes happening to their country. the current Polish goverment plays into the fears and insecurities of the Polish people - fear of losing national identity in favor of the EU, fear of disintegration of the family unit, etc. people are scared, and they will point their finger at whoever they think is the enemy - gays, "abortionists", teletubbies, you name it. it is up to the government to choose who they want to present as the enemy du jour.
honestly, i firmly believe that if the government adopted a more liberal stance and presented the issue matter-of-factly instead of scaremongering, few would oppose it as violently as they do now. surely you must see the difference between saying "omg gays invading poland, molesting our childrenz and destroying our familiez" and saying "the EU is considering allowing homosexual couples to register their partnerships with the state". a less emotionally charged rhetoric, however, wouldn't serve as a good distraction from the failing healthcare system and growing employee dissatisfaction within the public sector. the polish government has quite a history of using scare tactics and religion to divert attention from more pressing issues. shit falling apart, millions of young people fleeing the country? let's distract the public by trying to hang a crucifix in the EU parliament so we can bitch about how godless and horrible TEH WEST is!

if the current administration devoted as much time to improving the quality of life in Poland as they do to spreading fear and misinformation (gays=baby killers = euthanasia supporters = pedos), people wouldn't leave the country en masse. but where's the fun in that?

HornyPope
04-30-2008, 10:33 AM
they can believe whatever the hell they want, and by the same logic, i can believe what the hell i want as well. they certainly don't respect my ethical values, either.
Of course you can believe what you want!


find it somewhat odd you keep implying that a liberal attitude is a product of Western education. i think it's a common misconception about Eastern Europe - that "liberalism" used pejoratively is purely an influence of the West.
It is. Reason, liberal philosphies and politics, human rights, division between church and state, are all borrowed theories and perceptions from the West.


however, believe it or not, Poland has a history of liberal thinkers, and progressive social stances are not just a sign of rotten, loose Western morals spreading to the east.

Pffff... probably exilees who spent several years in foreign king's court and then came preaching liberal attitudes in their homeland. Turncoats, thieves and traitors these men are!


on top of that, do you honestly believe tolerance and compassion towards people other than yourself is a product of Western thought? No, that came from Jesus the Judean. However, it was suplanted by the Church's own teaching when it was convenient, right?

Sunny
04-30-2008, 10:35 AM
aw, screw you.

where did claibe's post go?

HornyPope
04-30-2008, 10:51 AM
Bathroom break?

OffspringHead
05-07-2008, 02:21 PM
The fact that religion interferes with politics and everyday life is fucking ridiculous. Poland may be a very Catholic country but come the fuck on. Is EVERYONE Catholic? So if you're gonna make a law about people not being able to marry someone of the same sex is bullshit. And this applies to America too.

Being homosexual isn't a choice. Idk what it's gonna take for people to realize this and just accept it.

wheelchairman
05-07-2008, 03:25 PM
The fact that religion interferes with politics and everyday life is fucking ridiculous. Poland may be a very Catholic country but come the fuck on. Is EVERYONE Catholic? So if you're gonna make a law about people not being able to marry someone of the same sex is bullshit. And this applies to America too.

Being homosexual isn't a choice. Idk what it's gonna take for people to realize this and just accept it.

Well Poland is a bit more homogenous than the US, like most states in Europe...

Smash_Returns
05-07-2008, 04:43 PM
What I find to be sad, is when politicians take their own moral and religious views, and use the power of their political stance to force their opinions and beliefs on a certain issue onto others. I find no problem with holding a belief closely, but to abuse your power to further a personal agenda? I find it wrong.

I truly do not see any moral or ethical difference between allowing a man and woman be married, or two women or men to be married. If they want to wed, I say let them. How is it wrong to have feelings for one person, regardless of gender. Banning homosexual marriage just makes no sense to me, because there is no proven logic behind it. (DO NOT TRY TO USE RELIGION AS LOGIC, religion is a belief, not solid evidence, and has not been proven. If you say "gay marriage is bad 'cause the bible tells me so," YOU ARE WRONG. Religion is belief, and NOT CONSISTANT with that of all others. Not everyone will hold your opinion.)

Give me one true logical reason why gay marriage is bad.

HornyPope
05-07-2008, 05:00 PM
God created the universe, he created logic.

Ye faithless creatures use His heavenly gift to further your own atheist agenda instead of doing so much good with it, like fighting to preserve traditional family structure.

sKratch
05-07-2008, 09:24 PM
What I find to be sad, is when politicians take their own moral and religious views, and use the power of their political stance to force their opinions and beliefs on a certain issue onto others. I find no problem with holding a belief closely, but to abuse your power to further a personal agenda? I find it wrong.

Yeah it really grinds my gears when a politician forces government subsidization of social services on me, I mean what the fuck? It's not his right to impose his moral views on me. I think poor people are a bunch of fucking niggers and don't deserve my tax money! He can hold the belief that government should distribute wealth to himself, but to abuse that power! Jeez!

HornyPope
05-08-2008, 01:33 AM
Yeah it really grinds my gears when a politician forces government subsidization of social services on me, I mean what the fuck? It's not his right to impose his moral views on me. I think poor people are a bunch of fucking niggers and don't deserve my tax money! He can hold the belief that government should distribute wealth to himself, but to abuse that power! Jeez!

Oh wow, you really believe that?

Poles are really racist people, I must admit.

Sunny
05-08-2008, 11:32 AM
Yeah it really grinds my gears when a politician forces government subsidization of social services on me, I mean what the fuck? It's not his right to impose his moral views on me. I think poor people are a bunch of fucking niggers and don't deserve my tax money! He can hold the belief that government should distribute wealth to himself, but to abuse that power! Jeez!

i understand you're being sarcastic, but that's such a flawed argument. access to social services, such as cheap healthcare, is a fundamental human right. a politician should use their best judgment to ensure best possible quality of life for his people. it is a humanitarian notion, not a religious notion. thus, yes, he is using his values, however, the reasons for it are not influenced by any religious doctrine.

honestly, i'm sure you can see the difference between a politician signing an environmental treaty and a politician outlawing consumption of shellfish because the Bible said it is an abomination, Lev. 11:10.... even though it would also, technically, classify as the same thing as the environmental treaty (imposing of values).

seriously, are we forgetting the importance of logic here?

forcyn
05-12-2008, 07:40 AM
that story was incredibly big all over polish media, I was shocked that a president could use somebody else's image. plus the whole video was just embarrasing. I mean, how the hell a president could even approve such thing?! because of such incidents we are seen by others as racists, anti-homosexual, ultra-catholic, nationalistic country. at least president's brother is not a prime minister anymore...


I don't care if someone's homosexual or not but on the other hand it's like "LOOK I AM A GAY!" c'mon, it's really getting show-off here with the gay stuff...

wheelchairman
05-12-2008, 08:04 AM
I've heard that argument before. I've personally never met a gay who was in your face about it...

But I've also never gone to a gay-pride parade or intentionally put myself into a position where they would be in your face about it...

I heard the same thing about V for Vendetta that they were over the top with the gay stuff.... :/

Sunny
05-12-2008, 10:56 AM
I don't care if someone's homosexual or not but on the other hand it's like "LOOK I AM A GAY!" c'mon, it's really getting show-off here with the gay stuff...

but where do you draw the line? gay parades? holding hands in public? what's an acceptable display of "gayness" and what isn't? more importantly, who are you to decide that?

people "show off" all the time - being straight, being Catholic, being wealthy, you name it. some of it makes me uncomfortable, some of it does not - but you know what? that's just me. i have no desire to tell other people what they can "show off" or not.

and from my experience, "showing off" only upsets people if it pertains to something outside of their comfort zone. like, if I said "I love my husband very much", you'd be like "aww, ok", because it's something you're comfortable and familiar with. but if I said "I really love my girlfriend", you'd be like "OMFG STOP SHOWING OFF WITH TEH GAY YOURE MAKING ME UNCOMFORTABLE!"

man, i just love straight privilege. ok, not really.

Vera
05-12-2008, 01:09 PM
but if I said "I really love my girlfriend", you'd be like "OMFG STOP SHOWING OFF WITH TEH GAY YOURE MAKING ME UNCOMFORTABLE!"

Nah, I'd just be jealous. :[

Rag Doll
05-12-2008, 02:08 PM
but if I said "I really love my girlfriend", you'd be like "OMFG STOP SHOWING OFF WITH TEH GAY YOURE MAKING ME UNCOMFORTABLE!"

or..."OMG IZ SHE HAWT LYK U I WANNA WATCH!!!1!1!!"

cuz, you know, lesbianism is acceptable if and only if two chicks are hot and guys can watch them get it onnnn