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ad8
03-28-2008, 12:31 PM
What do you think of criminality in today's world? Do you think it could be reduced or something? Have you ever experienced criminality for yourself?
Do you think that crimes committed by people can equal the ones that are commited by the system? Discuss

Edit: Thanks for moving the thread!

DirtyYeso
03-28-2008, 03:31 PM
Criminally is just another way to get food on your table :)

Cock Joke
03-30-2008, 10:24 AM
I'd like to go by the ol' "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" policy. You kill someone, you get killed. You steal a candy bar, someone steals a candy bar from you.

Almost flawless, I think.

barangatang
03-30-2008, 10:35 AM
Almost flawless, I think.
How would DUI and drug possession charges work? What about Prostitution? What about pedophilia?

Cock Joke
03-30-2008, 10:46 AM
How would DUI and drug possession charges work? What about Prostitution? What about pedophilia?

Well, with pedophilia the guy could be raped by an even bigger guy. I am not quite sure about the other two.

wheelchairman
03-30-2008, 11:22 AM
Well, with pedophilia the guy could be raped by an even bigger guy. I am not quite sure about the other two.

I think SomethingAwful made fun of a guy who suggested this at one point, apparently his professor replied with

"You want the state to hire a professional rapist to punish it's prisoners with..."

You fucking idiot...

ad8
03-30-2008, 12:11 PM
I'd like to go by the ol' "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" policy. You kill someone, you get killed. You steal a candy bar, someone steals a candy bar from you.

Almost flawless, I think.

What if poor or lower-class people steal from middle-classy/rich children who never did anything to them, saying:"The rich people have our money"?
Or another example: A friend of mine(who can be considered rich) walked home after school. He listened to his iPod when he got a beating and got robbed by a group of 4 people (I'd better avoid the nationality / origins thing). He didn't provoke them. He didn't even have the chance to give them his stuff without the beating. Furthermore, he did not know his attackers and so did they, probably. How is this fair?

Cock Joke
03-30-2008, 01:00 PM
Well, in that case, they don't get their own possessions stolen, they just get the stuff they stole returned to their rightful owners. Then, they go to jail.

Vikica
03-30-2008, 01:38 PM
Nice... And what if the system never gets them?
I live in a country with 4 million people and some still get away with crime. For example, for the last few days police and military are searching for a runaway military general who killed one 16 year old teenager and a 65 year old woman. In the news he is described as armed and dangerous, just like in good old Hollywood movies. You think they will get him soon? And he's not so far from my house either.

ad8
03-31-2008, 11:53 AM
Nice... And what if the system never gets them?
I live in a country with 4 million people and some still get away with crime. For example, for the last few days police and military are searching for a runaway military general who killed one 16 year old teenager and a 65 year old woman. In the news he is described as armed and dangerous, just like in good old Hollywood movies. You think they will get him soon? And he's not so far from my house either.

I wonder whether this teenager and that woman ever did something to the militaire...
And what if someone kills 5 people? Can you kill him 5 times?

Vikica
04-01-2008, 05:02 AM
what can you do to a man who kills 5 people? there's no punishment in the world that would make him understand what a mistake he made.
better yet, how can you punish a man who doesn't think he made a mistake, how do you punish a man who doesn't understand what he did?

(right now my classmates are writing a test of music culture and since I'm in a choir I don't have to bother with that so I'm enjoying my free time) XD

JoY
04-04-2008, 05:11 AM
I think SomethingAwful made fun of a guy who suggested this at one point, apparently his professor replied with

"You want the state to hire a professional rapist to punish it's prisoners with..."

You fucking idiot...

like murdering a murderer.

Vikica; a man who has commited a severe crime, but can't comprehend the magnitude, impact & consequences of his crime & the wrongness of his actions, is most likely ripe for psychiatry.

a while ago in the Netherlands (& undoubtly in other countries), young teenage criminals were sent to a military-sort of training camp. it was mostly a test to see if it would work. I saw & read a couple of interviews with people, now adults, who went to this camp. it seems that for whoever turned around his ways & his life, it had been very efficient & their punishment couldn't have been executed in a better way. they understood the meassures & had been taught all possible lessons. for the ones who remained criminally active, it seemed they would've been better off in psychiatric care. they were mostly cases like Vikica just described; it never seemed to have sinked in why they were convicted, why their actions were wrong & what there was to be sorry about.

they also didn't understand at all what the activities there, like cleaning up forests, were for. most of them said something along the lines of "they needed someone to get the job done". they didn't see that doing something constructive, together as a group, was a better way to spend their time than chitchatting about who got caught for what & how & thinking about how one would've gotten away with it. that getting taught social skills & knowledge was better than doing nothing but sitting on a bench all day.

anyway, I liked the method of the test & the psychology behind it. if someone decided to reopen that file & start a new research, I'd be all for it.

Vikica
04-12-2008, 02:05 PM
well Joy, that was a great idea coming true. we have places where young people end up when they get busted. they recover and they're ready for the real life after that.

idealism could make world be a better place to live, but to be an idealist you have to stay young, because, only young people still have the energy and will to make a difference. yet, I haven't heard of a president under 30. :rolleyes:

Rilex
04-12-2008, 09:27 PM
And he's not so far from my house either.

Evo ga kod, mene, cuvam ga u podrumu...

ad8
04-13-2008, 04:40 AM
Evo ga kod, mene, cuvam ga u podrumu...

Exactly...

Vikica
04-14-2008, 06:33 AM
Evo ga kod, mene, cuvam ga u podrumu...

nema sanse da ga cuvas u podrumu kad se ucmeko metkom u glavu... to je sad vec stara vijest. :p

ad8
04-14-2008, 12:21 PM
Ich verstehe kein Wort.

Duskygrin
04-15-2008, 12:18 PM
"We're running a hotel, Basil, not a borstal."

punker
04-17-2008, 10:38 AM
I hate when people start talking a weird language in an international thread, if you dont want everyone else to understand, send a private message or something

Vikica
04-18-2008, 02:35 AM
I hate when people start talking a weird language in an international thread, if you dont want everyone else to understand, send a private message or something

you didn't inderstand two, maybe three posts but trust me, you dind't miss a lot.

Llamas
04-18-2008, 09:20 PM
Ich verstehe kein Wort.

Ich verstehe das! :D


I hate when people start talking a weird language in an international thread, if you dont want everyone else to understand, send a private message or something

It's not a "weird" language just because it's not English. It's not about not wanting other people to understand. Sometimes a person can only say what they're truly thinking in their native tongue, and unfortunately then only a few people will understand them. There's nothing wrong with that.

Vikica
04-19-2008, 02:04 AM
it's not like I wanted to say some secret to that guy. it was nice for me to know someone here can speak croatian so I replied in my language. don't panic so much about it.

ilovellamas, thanks for understanding. :)

OffspringHead
05-08-2008, 02:18 PM
God, what a broad topic. I think 90% of the time, people who are breaking the law deserve a punishment. The exceptions are


Marijuana- I smoke lots of weed but i think it should stay illegal. It IS a gateway drug and is psychologically addictive. I know this from personal experience with friends and family etc. But the closing of Marijuana vendors in California is bullshit. That weed is legally taxed by the government and able to be purchased by people with a proper ID. The federal government is not allowed to interfere with State affairs but they do so anyway with the Marijuana topic in California.

Stealing- For your starving/poor family, i think the punishment should not be as severe. If you're resorting to stealing because you can't afford to feed your child, you should have to pay a small fine for your first offense then have it escalate there from offense to offense.

Vikica
05-30-2008, 02:22 AM
in case of marijuana I can't say a lot. any drug in any form in my country is illegal and although I'm sometimes wild child I don't use any drugs or so. maybe a beer sometimes when I feel like drinking it but never wasting myself so I can't walk straight. but beer is not a drug, in normal quantities it can be considered a medicine. :p
yet, while beer can be a medicine, most of the medicines people use to get better can make more damage to their organism than a smoke of marijuana. government should do something about that.

I agree with OffspringHead commenting the punishment for poor people stealing. I just don't know what more I can say, it's just so well said. :o

sipptaroowsky
06-23-2008, 08:01 AM
zero killed, so here are some of my thoughts about all this. firs of all to explain the confersation between the two #foreign" girls,. They weren't speaking only Croatian, they spoke Serbian allso, is was about a general previously mentioned, the mate killed him self after killing all those people before, obviously a man (a monster) could not live with him self as he was punished by his own crime, now this is a cowardly thing to do, selfkillment, zero killed, so to continue.

I don't have a clear perspective about all this so I devided them in to three opinions.

1.Fist of all punishment is not a humane thing to do, no matter what the person did punishing him for it is not humane, so my solution one would be helping him get over it, firget about it and move on, helping him to gain his clear mind again.

2. After realisyng that is not an option I thought, if you're gonna be inhumane why not go all the way...the following: if a man kills someone kill him as the punishment. if he kills two, three, for persons then the following: one person: one year of TORTURE, I mean, electroshocks, nailpulling, skin burning, toothbraking (my personal worst), dick/vagina hammering/widestreching, cutting him all over the bodey, scaring him regularly, if he is still alive after a year of everyday torture you do the following, lock him in a place where he can not hurt you, give him a one bullet gun and give him a chance to end his own life. when it's two people then two years....e.c.t.

3. Now if that doesn't work for you then chose number three, my personal favourite...inprisonment forever, no chance of parool, labour (becouse it would be stupid to pay for this mans life, he should earn the right to live), the person should allso get a chance of ending his own life whenever he wants to, which I consider a birth given right. offcourse he should be given the chance of education, news, and he should be given a psyhiatrist to help him understand what he did, if he understands to help him feal pain of that persons whos life he ended, ih he does that so he should become a better person, but death punishment is totaly out of the question, becouse that way we are no different from the person we kill

ad8
06-23-2008, 08:21 AM
Stealing- For your starving/poor family, i think the punishment should not be as severe. If you're resorting to stealing because you can't afford to feed your child, you should have to pay a small fine for your first offense then have it escalate there from offense to offense.

I don't think this is the right way. It's always better to organise stuff to feed the poor people than to let them steal themselves. Like a tax for super-rich people that provides money for the poor people or something like that.

F@ BANKZ
06-24-2008, 02:43 AM
Taxes for the super-rich have been tried before and the result is usually the super-rich emigrate away from the tax. I say you should go through with them anyway, because if every nation did it the rich would have no choice but to help. I also think that these responcibilities shouldn't fall solely upon the rich; everybody should give what they can to help as there is always a bigger fish.

JoY
06-25-2008, 04:26 AM
more taxes for the "superrich" is a ridiculous idea. in most parts of the world the rich already pay a very substantial amount of taxes & still the disparity (between rich & poor) is increasing. it's a black hole, swallowing the community's cash. by driving up the taxes, you just enlarge that black hole & destroy your own economy.

you need to understand the background of the poor & the reason why they're poor better, before sending a gigantic cash flow their way. also, understanding criminality would be useful. it doesn't always consequently have to do with poverty. sometimes poverty & criminality are consequences of the same underlying problematics.

about 75-90% of the juvenile delinquents (under 21) are or will in adulthood be diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder, like Conduct Disorder (CD), Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), Psychopathy & Cluster A, B & C Personality Disorders - mainly Cluster B; antisocial, borderline, histronic & narcissistic personality disorder. this is relevant, because a large majority of adult delinquents committed their first crime in their teenage years.

the more comorbidity (for instance ODD-CD, or personality disorders combined in one person), the more severe the behavioral problems & criminality. & notice that I'm not even mentioning the comorbidity of drug abuse/dependency. read up on it, it's pretty damn interesting.

psychiatric pathology by definition causes individuals to dysfunction on an individual level & in society, or else we wouldn't be speaking in terms of "disorder". one can imagine that a condition like borderline personality disorder, characterised by for instance impulsivity & emotional + behavioral dysregulation, causes the individual to lose jobs, drop out of education & have difficulty structuring financials.

there you go. so delinquency & poverty are often connected, but not consequently. better yet, in juvenile delinquency the two are more often not consequently related to each other, than otherwise. in purely violent crimes, which a large portion of all criminality is, poverty isn't even a direct factor.

I'm not even getting into the way a child is raised. there are large treatment programs, that started in America, (Triple P; Positive Parenting Program, & more specific; Functional Family Therapy) to teach parents how to raise (problem-)childs, which are proved to be cost-effective from the age of 4 yrs old. meaning, it costs the community less to develop & set up these (very expensive) educational treatment programs, than the consequences of inadequate parenting.

that just shows how much impact parenting has on behavior & criminality in adulthood. it also shows that the costs of behavioral problems & criminality for society are enormous. the beauty of these programs lies in the long-term effect. children raised well will be parents with better parenting skills.

JoY
06-25-2008, 10:59 AM
oh right, my thoughts/conclusion; more psychiatric treatment in prisons (costs $$, but I'm pretty damn sure in the long run it'll be cost effective), more alertness when it comes to derailing youth (& not youth overal, as it tends to be like now), more proven effective educational parenting programs like Triple P.

good parents will be less likely to have a child that derails & will be more likely to hit the alarm when it does, so Triple P was basically a good starting point in bringing back criminality.

edit: a couple more things; the society needs to be protected from people who steal, no matter what reason they have for stealing. poverty isn't a choice, but it's not something that's completely out of your hands either.

ad8
06-25-2008, 11:41 AM
oh right, my thoughts/conclusion; more psychiatric treatment in prisons (costs $$, but I'm pretty damn sure in the long run it'll be cost effective), more alertness when it comes to derailing youth (& not youth overal, as it tends to be like now), more proven effective educational parenting programs like Triple P.

good parents will be less likely to have a child that derails & will be more likely to hit the alarm when it does, so Triple P was basically a good starting point in bringing back criminality.

edit: one more thing; the society needs to be protected from people who steal, no matter what reason they have for stealing. poverty isn't a choice, but it's not something that's completely out of your hands either.

That is probably the better way. Taxes for super-rich people only work if they are the same in every country. And if this money is spent at the right place. I absolutely agree on the psychiatry thing. But it'll be hard to make things work that way. I think Way Down The Line is a pretty good song to describe these problems. Good people know that they have to educate their kids and teach them the right values, but people who never got to learn these values on their own won't happen to teach them to their kids. So the society needs effective campaigns to burn the right values into the minds of people. And I say "burn into the minds" because many people actually know what's good or bad, but don't practicise things in daily life. So it's also about the awareness.

JoY
06-25-2008, 11:53 AM
hm hm. *nods* although I still very much disagree on the taxes-thing, as I explained in my post before the one you quoted. like I said, poverty isn't a choice, but it's not something that's completely out of your hands either. you can't "treat" poverty with money, there usually is a reason behind poverty that first needs to be resolved.

but definitely, awareness is important. I was wondering how many of you have heard of Triple P, since it started in America & has only just arrived in the Netherlands. there's a shitload of posters through the city here in Amsterdam, that try to advocate positive parenting & that bring Triple P to everyone's attention. I was wondering if it's the same way over there, or if you guys don't even know what it is.

about giving a different treatment to someone who steals for food for the family; I'm pretty sure you guys would judge a heroin addicted mother, who steals to buy her baby food, differently than a mother who does the same & isn't a drug addict. there are situations you instinctively sympathise less with. for instance, antisocial personality disorder isn't something people usually sympathise a whole lot with, but still it's a pretty severe condition the people who have it suffer from & they didn't choose to get it. due to their disorder they don't fit into society, so in a way even they are a victim of society.

what if I told you the drug addicted mother was sexually abused her whole youth & has severe Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, while the second mom really just needs the cash for her baby, because she impulsively buys herself expensive shit she can't afford with her low income - like Gucci clothes, expensive cars, Louis Vuitton bags & a swimming pool? does that shift your sympathy? probably, but that doesn't take away that the second mother is also likely to suffer from a psychiatric disorder.

I'm just saying, do not judge too easily. it's understandable you want to discriminate the criminals who commit an understandable crime, from the ones you don't understand, but crime is always a symptom & it isn't always a symptom of something you're ever going to understand. either way, no matter how sad the situation is & how much sympathy you feel, you don't want criminals to walk around free & let them do their thing, no matter how much they're a victim of today's society & make you go "awww".

ad8
06-25-2008, 12:00 PM
what if I told you the drug addicted mother was sexually abused her whole youth & has severe Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

hm... are you a psychiatrist? Cause my dad's a psychiatrist and he uses pretty much the same vocabulary as you do:D Anyway, I pretty much agree with you. And I never heard of Triple P... what's the main thing about it?

JoY
06-25-2008, 12:15 PM
oh how stupid of me, of course you're from Germany! for a minute I confused myself, but yeah, sorry. of course you don't know Tripe P. anyway, I said a few things about Triple P at the end of that long post of mine in this topic, a few posts ago. it stands for Positive Parenting Program. basically parents who are interested in some extra parenting skills can read up on it, but you can also get basic parenting-training, or even the whole works with hardcore serious sessions in which you learn everything about raising a child.

it mainly focuses on positively stimulating a child to develop it's own skills & interests, but at same time how to deal with unwanted behavior of a child. many parents in problematic families (which the campaign is mainly aimed at) get mad, or lose their temper, but they're taught certain strategies to get it under control & manage their kid's behavior at the same time. it all sounds incredibly simple, but you have no idea how effective this already has proven to be. behavioral problems & criminality at a young age significantly improves & the relation between parent & child improves aswell.

I'm not a psychiatrist, haha. I wish I was! no, I'm a med student & I hope to specialise in psychiatry, since it's always drawn my attention & interest. :] it's cool your dad's a psychiatrist. the world needs more of those.

ad8
06-25-2008, 12:36 PM
oh how stupid of me, of course you're from Germany! for a minute I confused myself, but yeah, sorry. of course you don't know Tripe P. anyway, I said a few things about Triple P at the end of that long post of mine in this topic, a few posts ago. it stands for Positive Parenting Program. basically parents who are interested in some extra parenting skills can read up on it, but you can also get basic parenting-training, or even the whole works with hardcore serious sessions in which you learn everything about raising a child.

it mainly focuses on positively stimulating a child to develop it's own skills & interests, but at same time how to deal with unwanted behavior of a child. many parents in problematic families (which the campaign is mainly aimed at) get mad, or lose their temper, but they're taught certain strategies to get it under control & manage their kid's behavior at the same time. it all sounds incredibly simple, but you have no idea how effective this already has proven to be. behavioral problems & criminality at a young age significantly improves & the relation between parent & child improves aswell.

I'm not a psychiatrist, haha. I wish I was! no, I'm a med student & I hope to specialise in psychiatry, since it's always drawn my attention & interest. :] it's cool your dad's a psychiatrist. the world needs more of those.
I guess this was the first time I received a positive feedback about my fathers' job:D And Triple P sounds interesting, I think I'm going to ask my father about it. Btw, ever heard of Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR)?

JoY
06-26-2008, 05:30 AM
yeah, I've heard of EMDR. it's one of those things that works, though science can't explain yet how. it probably has to do with the activation of both brainparts, so that the cooperation of the two becomes restored, right? it's interesting stuff. why did you ask?

ad8
06-26-2008, 06:56 AM
yeah, I've heard of EMDR. it's one of those things that works, though science can't explain yet how. it probably has to do with the activation of both brainparts, so that the cooperation of the two becomes restored, right? it's interesting stuff. why did you ask?

Well, my father works with EMDR a lot. And I wanted to know if it's really as popular as he says. Now I know it is that popular:D

JoY
06-27-2008, 11:42 AM
because the concept has traveled all the way from Germany to the Netherlands...?

by the way, I'm hoping you weren't thinking EMDR finds its origins in Germany? something called Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing, developed by someone called Francine Shapiro, isn't very likely to come from Germany & consering that, that already indicates it's pretty popular world-wide.

but I appreciate your enthusiasm. ;p

ad8
06-27-2008, 12:20 PM
because the concept has traveled all the way from Germany to the Netherlands...?

by the way, I'm hoping you weren't thinking EMDR finds its origins in Germany? something called Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing, developed by someone called Francine Shapiro, isn't very likely to come from Germany & consering that, that already indicates it's pretty popular world-wide.

but I appreciate your enthusiasm. ;p

I knew it didn't come from Germany, but I wanted to know if EMDR is rather unknown(since my father can't tell me if every med student in Europe knows it or not)

JoY
06-27-2008, 12:40 PM
in psychiatry it isn't (unknown). but I'm not sure every single med student knows exactly what you're talking about, when you mention EMDR. probably not.

ad8
06-27-2008, 12:54 PM
in psychiatry it isn't (unknown). but I'm not sure every single med student knows exactly what you're talking about, when you mention EMDR. probably not.

Well, saying "every med student" was a bit exaggerated, but you'll get the point.

JoY
06-27-2008, 03:53 PM
yes.

more criminality anyone? ;]

JoY
06-28-2008, 09:27 AM
my gratitude to the moderators who deleted this bullshit.

(for those who hadn't noticed, you've missed nothing)

ad8
06-29-2008, 09:50 AM
Damn... what happened now? First I miss the ban of the Prussian Blue spammers and now I miss things in my own thread:( Real life sucks...:D

yes.

more criminality anyone? ;]

Oh yea, this thread went quite off-topic:D

Vikica
07-07-2008, 02:29 AM
you two really got into psychological discuss, maybe there should be a special topic for it... ;)

here in Croatia there's a lot of talk about child abuse lately. and there was a case where two sons reported their mom to the police because she swore them when they didn't want to sit by the table and have lunch.
the woman was frustrated because of lack of money. and her husband left her when the boys were little.
both of her sons were under 12 but it seems they know their rights very well. and when they reported her, their dad wanted the social service to give the boys to him. and he lives outside of the country. but social service took mom's side and gave her the boys back.
well, maybe she's a bad mother and maybe she's doing the best she can but the father is the one who has bad influence to the boys.
this is not the only case where a parent tells the kids their rights just to harm the other parent.
do you guys think the social services should keep their eyes on such families that have problems? because if they did there would be a need for lots of new social workers. is this a problem that can be easily solved by educating the parents and helping single mothers/fathers?
and do you think problems like this could get a criminal end since we all know that an explanation for persons behaviour mostly comes from his/her childhood?

thanks :)

ad8
07-07-2008, 06:05 AM
Of course people like this can become criminals. The childhood is very important, so Joys Triple T thing seems like a step in the right direction. Last year, there were many many cases of child abuse in Germany. There was something new in the media like every week. But it were mostly children under 5 years who were killed by their parents so they couldn't go to the police.