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View Full Version : Did agent orange try to sue the offspring



the hitcher
05-25-2008, 08:04 PM
I heard agent orange tride to sue the offspring over them
covering bloodstains is ther any truth in this

Little_Miss_1565
05-25-2008, 08:38 PM
I think it was over "Come Out and Play," not a cover of "Bloodstains."

the hitcher
05-25-2008, 09:00 PM
why was that thats not cool for there first big hit

brian.offspring
05-25-2008, 10:01 PM
woow i didn't know that :confused:

Little_Miss_1565
05-25-2008, 10:18 PM
The Vandals wrote "Aging Orange" about it, and it was funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quickening

Angelo
05-25-2008, 10:58 PM
I believe Agent Orange tried to sue The Offspring because they claimed the middle eastern riff in Come Out & Play was similar to (or a "rip off" of) a riff Agent Orange plays in one of their songs (was it Bloodstains?).

I can actually remember listening to a radio interview back in '95 where Noodles was asked about it. Noodles said nothing came of it because it was a "non issue." (I assume the courts figured it was a non issue)

Hypodermic_89
05-25-2008, 11:51 PM
Fuckin' Agent Orange. They finally realized that their band is going nowhere so they decided to try to get a quick fix from the most successful indy band of all time.

0r4ng3
05-25-2008, 11:53 PM
From the linked Wikipedia article:

This song is a jab at the Fullerton, California punk band Agent Orange, who had a minor hit on local rock radio in the early 1980s with the song "Bloodstains." Although the band still perform together, they have not had a significant hit since that song. "Aging Orange" parodies frontman Mike Palm, who claimed in interviews in the 1990s that Agent Orange had inspired many of the newer bands becoming popular at the time. A request had been filed in 1994 by Robbie Fields, owner of Posh Boy Records who controlled rights to the album on which "Bloodstains" appeared, claiming that the Offspring had lifted a riff in their hit song "Come Out and Play" from "Bloodstains" and that he should be paid royalties for its use. Although a lawsuit was never formally filed, Palm had stated that the claims were valid and that the riff had been stolen from Agent Orange. In "Aging Orange" the Vandals break into this riff and the song's chorus mocks Palm's claims, making him sound like a whining child crying "I invented socks/and I invented gravy/I made up the cotton gin/but no one ever paid me." It goes on to call him names such as "palm palm/ape drape/poodle head."That is pretty funny.

Ptit Seb
05-26-2008, 12:18 AM
a complete article under the archives section is available at
http://www.theoffspringsession.com/fr-html-file-archives-48.html

:)
(ps : at this time there's only the french version)

StayInTheHouseCarl
05-26-2008, 02:16 AM
The Vandals wrote "Aging Orange" about it, and it was funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quickening

ya i was going to say all the information you need is in that gem of a song

SaiKYoU
05-26-2008, 02:49 AM
wow, i didn't know this... this is sad for Agent Orange, i really like some of their stuff... i guess they had bad luck in their musical tries for big impact... but sueing for nothing is stupid...

Unnatural Disaster
05-26-2008, 08:51 AM
I have never noticed anything in common between the songs "Bloodstains" and "Come Out and Play"

Jack-UK
05-26-2008, 09:30 AM
Nor me :S they sound completely different.

Manic subsidal
05-26-2008, 03:09 PM
This is stupid. I haven't listened to these two songs in ages but I remember both having the same spanish diminished scale or whatever it's called.

Agent Orange didn't "invent" that, so why would they sue? In general, I think it's stupid when people argue about punk rock songs sounding the same due to similar riffs and chord progressions. It's the musical timbre that counts :)

Robbie Fields
01-24-2010, 08:49 AM
I am glad that the original question posted here started an informed discussion. I just wanted to clarify a few points ...

It is correct that there was never a lawsuit but we were headed that way
until a very expensive musicologist report in 1995 had Agent Orange being influenced by Nirvana.

In any event, we would have settled. Or at that point, disentangle myself from Mike Palm. I never sought publicity.

All the parties mentioned in this thread knew each other and most were friends at some point. Yet, the only lawsuit ever filed was by Mike Palm against me in the 1980's (the dispute was subsequently settled with prejudice) and yet here I was taking his side in 1995 against my friends Brett Gurewitz and Bryan "Dexter" Holland wth another friend Jim Guerinot in The Offspring's corner!

Ultimately the dispute centered on hurt feelings. Dexter had twice given major interviews where he thought he was doing Agent Orange a favor by mentioning how Mike Palm's guitar work had influenced Come Out And Play.

Well, Mike did not accept it as promotion and came to me with a casus belli and I foolishly decided it was my duty to help Mike. My involvement now hurt both Dexter's and Brett's feelings. Brett had just paid for the digital remastering of both Living In Darkness and my TSOL album, both of the master tapes sitting on Brett's desk waiting to be released on Epitaph!
That deal got killed in a hurry.

Ironically, one of the settlements I proposed was The Offspring recording an Agent Orange song. But there was no settlement. It was a crushing humiliation for both Mike Palm and myself and we were out of pocket.
Worse for Mike as The Vandals recorded Aging Orange, a step that was apt in the moment but I doubt The Vandals play that song live much. And to complicate matters, Joe Escalante of The Vandals and I were very good friends at the time and have continued to be so until this day.

Unfortunately, I was never able to renew my friendship with Bryan, though our friendship had been limited to brief conversations prior to the dispute.
But he has made my life a lot easier over the years by first making me a very generous offer to buy the TSOL masters from me in 1997 and then in 2000
recording Bloodstains for the Ready To Rumble film soundtrack which paid handsomely. The Offspring also had a lot of fun in the mid 1990's with the dispute by playing Bloodstains live at major concerts.

As for Mike Palm, he wrote some truly extraordinary music as a teenager, Bloodstains when he was no more than 16. He tours incessantly with an awfully good band for little more than gas money. Living In Darkness has sold hugely over the years and Bloodstains remains a skate punk anthem.

Oxygene
01-25-2010, 01:44 AM
I am glad that the original question posted here started an informed discussion. I just wanted to clarify a few points ...

It is correct that there was never a lawsuit but we were headed that way
until a very expensive musicologist report in 1995 had Agent Orange being influenced by Nirvana.

In any event, we would have settled. Or at that point, disentangle myself from Mike Palm. I never sought publicity.

All the parties mentioned in this thread knew each other and most were friends at some point. Yet, the only lawsuit ever filed was by Mike Palm against me in the 1980's (the dispute was subsequently settled with prejudice) and yet here I was taking his side in 1995 against my friends Brett Gurewitz and Bryan "Dexter" Holland wth another friend Jim Guerinot in The Offspring's corner!

Ultimately the dispute centered on hurt feelings. Dexter had twice given major interviews where he thought he was doing Agent Orange a favor by mentioning how Mike Palm's guitar work had influenced Come Out And Play.

Well, Mike did not accept it as promotion and came to me with a casus belli and I foolishly decided it was my duty to help Mike. My involvement now hurt both Dexter's and Brett's feelings. Brett had just paid for the digital remastering of both Living In Darkness and my TSOL album, both of the master tapes sitting on Brett's desk waiting to be released on Epitaph!
That deal got killed in a hurry.

Ironically, one of the settlements I proposed was The Offspring recording an Agent Orange song. But there was no settlement. It was a crushing humiliation for both Mike Palm and myself and we were out of pocket.
Worse for Mike as The Vandals recorded Aging Orange, a step that was apt in the moment but I doubt The Vandals play that song live much. And to complicate matters, Joe Escalante of The Vandals and I were very good friends at the time and have continued to be so until this day.

Unfortunately, I was never able to renew my friendship with Bryan, though our friendship had been limited to brief conversations prior to the dispute.
But he has made my life a lot easier over the years by first making me a very generous offer to buy the TSOL masters from me in 1997 and then in 2000
recording Bloodstains for the Ready To Rumble film soundtrack which paid handsomely. The Offspring also had a lot of fun in the mid 1990's with the dispute by playing Bloodstains live at major concerts.

As for Mike Palm, he wrote some truly extraordinary music as a teenager, Bloodstains when he was no more than 16. He tours incessantly with an awfully good band for little more than gas money. Living In Darkness has sold hugely over the years and Bloodstains remains a skate punk anthem.

Pride goeth before a fall - never forget proverbs

-George Carlin

It's great of you to come here and share that side of the story with us.. although it's a bit hard for me to comprehend how someone could think of being an influence to anyone - even the shittiest band in the world - is not a compliment, on the contrary an act of agression. It boggles the mind. Especially when it's a smart dude saying it like Dexter.. htf can someone take offense at THAT?

Robbie Fields
01-25-2010, 02:09 AM
Servus! (If you are indeed writing from Buda or Pest!)

Another factor to consider is the Zeitgeist. I can't speak for Mike Palm, but many of us had been truly battered by the economic recession of the early 1990's coupled with the elimination of vinyl from German record stores in August 1991. Those 2 factors really hurt indie labels and their distributors.

On the other hand, we had the huge success of Nirvana in 1991 that threw us a lifeline and then in 1994, there was a gold rush mentality on the heels of the success of "Dookie" and "Smash". One could not avoid envying the luck of The Didjits having their song Killboy Powerhead covered.

I know that after going through a painful divorce at the end of 1991 and losing my house to foreclosure in 1993 that I was not going to live on my knees, just because my long time friend Brett was riding high at that moment. So I admit my emotions (unrelated to the Offspring) clouded my judgment.

Over the last 2 years I have once again gone through another painful chapter in my life but this time I have found great support from many people.
The Zeitgeist among groups and labels is different this time. I have been exceptionally busy the past 3 months collaborating with many people; for sure, there are those who take a pass but I am finding more and more people just want to keep involved and not be forgotten and appreciate my work both in the past and the present.

Oxygene
01-25-2010, 02:31 AM
Servus! (If you are indeed writing from Buda or Pest!)

Another factor to consider is the Zeitgeist. I can't speak for Mike Palm, but many of us had been truly battered by the economic recession of the early 1990's coupled with the elimination of vinyl from German record stores in August 1991. Those 2 factors really hurt indie labels and their distributors.

On the other hand, we had the huge success of Nirvana in 1991 that threw us a lifeline and then in 1994, there was a gold rush mentality on the heels of the success of "Dookie" and "Smash". One could not avoid envying the luck of The Didjits having their song Killboy Powerhead covered.

I know that after going through a painful divorce at the end of 1991 and losing my house to foreclosure in 1993 that I was not going to live on my knees, just because my long time friend Brett was riding high at that moment. So I admit my emotions (unrelated to the Offspring) clouded my judgment.

Over the last 2 years I have once again gone through another painful chapter in my life but this time I have found great support from many people.
The Zeitgeist among groups and labels is different this time. I have been exceptionally busy the past 3 months collaborating with many people; for sure, there are those who take a pass but I am finding more and more people just want to keep involved and not be forgotten and appreciate my work both in the past and the present.

Szervusz :) I am indeed writing from Buda.. although a hop skip and a jump from the Danube :) Have you been here?

I wasn't juding you or Mike Palm I am just honestly baffeled.. obviously I have no clue about the zeitgesit in that place and time.. I was about 10 and living on the east coast getting ready to move back to the east bloc. I guess to each his own.. My life long dream would've been to be a band that can at least tour in a shitty mini van accross the US or Europe or whatever.. just to get out and play shows, before I have to join this shitty grey corporate world, so what makes it strange for me is how people who get to "play shows for little more than gas money" aren't content and proud of influencing the most successful independently released recor of all time, and aren't just happy, being able to live the dream. I guess we're all different...

Robbie Fields
01-25-2010, 03:12 AM
I wasn't juding you or Mike Palm I am just honestly baffeled..

I hope that isn't a Freudian slip!

I agree entirely with your sentiments. In 1982 I paid for the then teenaged Agent Orange to go on a van tour of the east coast, including flights and they complained about only being able to save their per diems.

Yes, I have been to Budapest, many, many times but mostly in the 1970's and early 1980's. I was up the river in Pozsony 2 years ago last November for a tennis tournament (thanks, Ryanair!) but never even made it across to Wien, I was so broke.

Instead, I rode one of those great trains running from Budapest to Berlin, getting off in Dresden where I could stay for free and had access to a few hundred euros stashed in a German bank. What was bizarre was the empty dining car with prices in euros. Instead of the 1970s' era Schnitzel, all I could afford was a cup of goulasch soup!

MAXTER
01-25-2010, 05:05 AM
For Those enter now in this thread
FONT: http://www.theoffspringsession.com/documents/archives/agent_orange_sued_the_offspring/noodles_in_the_studio_bloodstains_solo_and_speech. mp3

Omni
01-25-2010, 09:21 PM
That's pretty awesome. I hope you become a regular poster here, Robbie Fields, that was extremely insightful.

Robbie Fields
01-26-2010, 08:16 AM
Thank you for the welcome.

I used to hang out in the Team Goon forum a few years back before it went south.

I will be on the lookout for threads where I can make a meaningful contribution.

Oxygene
01-26-2010, 08:51 AM
Thank you for the welcome.

I used to hang out in the Team Goon forum a few years back before it went south.

I will be on the lookout for threads where I can make a meaningful contribution.

Well it's pretty awesome of you to come here and share with us..for most of us, this whole scene is so far away and in a different world, that we value the contribution of anyone who has something to do with it..

It's very cool to see what went on in the background.. I hope to see you share more of your story here.

Superdope
01-26-2010, 09:55 AM
I just want to echo what's been said already. It's pretty cool that you come on here and share your side of the story.

Little_Miss_1565
01-27-2010, 08:01 AM
While this is all very interesting, this is completely off topic. I've moved the off-topic threads to GC for the time being. I suspect they probably better belong in Your Band -- PM me or something if you feel strongly one way or the other.