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lost_nvrfound
07-11-2008, 10:50 AM
Is it just me or is all of this going in a very bad direction.

Studies show that kids growing up in households that are over sanitized have underdeveloped immune systems, making them more at risk for infection. On top of that, over use of hand sanitizer and antibacterial wipes have pushed for the development and strengthening of possibly fatal infections and bacteria like the MRSA staph infection. So how do schools react when a kid dies from it? They put alcohol based hand sanitizer in every classroom. Recently, bacteria that feed and thrive on antibiotics have been discovered in various parts of the world.

Last year, we had the worst flu outbreak since nearly 100 years ago when thousands of people died. Because of the vaccines, influenza mutates so quickly that they have to change the vaccine every year. Is it just me or are we reaching critical mass? I have a feeling another worldwide devastating flu outbreak is in the near future.

And on top of it all, you can't say a damn thing that could offend anyone. Everything has to be PC. Thus leading to Cookie monster and Oscar the Grouch being taken off of Sesame Street. How can anyone keep up with whats okay?

Static_Martyr
07-11-2008, 04:46 PM
I'm not sure about all of that (not because I disagree, but simply because I haven't researched it....although I plan to now), but I read from a study not too long ago that suggested that washing your hands in a public restroom may actually be *less* sanitary than not washing them at all (in a public restroom), or even flushing the toilet! All this because, supposedly, people touch the toilet seat lever, the faucets, and the doors to the stalls and the bathroom itself, all after wiping their asses and before washing their hands.

I have to say, it doesn't make me want to stop washing my hands when I use the bathroom....but it does kind of make me sick to my stomach. Just a little.

wheelchairman
07-12-2008, 06:38 AM
When is a house overly sanitized? What is done different with regards to cleaning a house than 10 years ago or 20? That's what I would like to know before I agree.

Political Correctness doesn't exist, it's a term used almost always as an insult or to slight towards some public action. So it's unlikely that Cookie Monster and Oscar the Grouch were removed due to political correctness. I can sort of see that Oscar was removed due to the fact that he's a hobo, but what? Is cookie monster supposed to be Latino? Latinos love cookies? Stupid fat JohnnyNemesis.

JoY
07-12-2008, 09:12 AM
basically it's true that humanity's war against "dirty" has caused new health problems to float to the surface.
first of all, it's pretty logical that in a society where disease has no right to exist, because it's lost its purpose of survival of the fittest, at some point even the tiniest health problems come to our attention as being "new", after some of the major sicknesses (for instance due to poor hygene) have ceased to exist.
secondly, it's not humanity that evolves. it's everything. also bacteria, protozoa, viruses, everything. new diseases will always pop up, as long as we exist.
thirdly, the way we evolve has a great deal of influence on the way diseases evolve. we're all part of the cosmic joke. if we wouldn't have optional cures for influenza, but we would have optional cures for HIV (in the purest form), influenza would stay the way it is & HIV would evolve in ways it becomes impossible to cure. now it's the other way around. HIV we try to treat, but we can't cure the infection. that's why in essence the virus stays pretty much the same. because it can & because it'll survive anyway.

let's not forget, that hygene has eliminated many diseases, that still exist in places where circumstances are less fortunate.

seeing the plus-sides, the Western world got rid of cholera, puerperal fever/childbed fever, a collection of parasites, is succesful in the fight against salmonella (>> typhoid fever) & legionella... that's a pretty significant list, especially seen the severity of most of the content & seeing it's not nearly complete.

the down-side is becoming more & more obvious. extreme hygene gives rise to more & more allergies, meaning we're keeping up such an unnatural definition of "clean", our immune systems overreact when encountering a natural, normally harmless allergen. the immune system is like a virus scanner, like Norton. early in life it saves definitions & characteristics of external substances, recognises them as being harmless or a possible threat, based on experience. when maintaining extreme hygene & keeping the environment overly & unnaturally clean, the immune system will miss out on meeting many of the natural external substances in the future it'll come across & therefore can't learn to identify them as being harmless or possible threats. it stays underdeveloped & becomes overly sensitive to things that are in essence harmless, because it has never learned they aren't health threatening.

vaccinations have helped our society mostly overcome diphteria, pertussis/whooping cough, tetanus, polio & smallpox for example. whatever you say, you can't argue that there have been great benefits from vaccination.

MRSA is a meticilline resistant staph aureus. it mainly & typically pops up in hospitals, because so many antibiotics go around there, that for bacteria it's the most optimal surrounding to mutate to an antibiotics resistent form. like we, bacteria aim to survive, so the more antibiotics they come across, the more they need to evolve & adapt to survive. generally this mutant doesn't occur outside the hospital walls, because it has been able to survive in it's original form, without having to undergo mutation.

in short, MRSA is not a consequence of overdoing hygene. it's a result of the use & abuse of antibiotics.

the problem with antibiotics is, that you have to finish a dose with a certain discipline. if it's required to take 3 pills a day at set times for 14 days in total, many people fail to follow the prescription succesfully. every flaw in following exact prescriptions for antibiotics give bacteria time, opportunity & room to adapt & mutate into an antibiotics resistent form.

another problem with anitbiotics is, that broad spectrum antibiotics have been too widely used in our society. after the discovery of antibiotics, they instantly became so sacret in our society, that they became hugely overly popular. not only does that cause bacteria to anticipate to the use of antibiotics, it also causes natural flora to be disrupted. natural bacteria that help the immune system & are for protection, are just as much attacked by broad spectrum antibiotics, as pathologic bacteria. that's why the most common side effect of antibiotics is diarrea.

influenza is a growing problem, that's difficult to get a grip on for the world of medicine. it changes shape incredibly quickly, but if we wouldn't vaccinate, current types of influenza would cause just as much health problems, as new types can possibly give rise to. medicine is trying to keep up with the speed in which influenza is adapting to current medicine, but as the sentence suggests, medicine will always be one step behind. we can't anticipate a new form of influenza, before it's actually there.

Oscar is banned from Sesame Street???! oh my god...

JoY
07-12-2008, 12:19 PM
oh right, I said a whole lot on the issue, but it was mainly basic information without a conclusion.

I fully agree that this society is overdoing the whole hygene-thing. with past experiences of disease & death due to poor hygene, our society is now so focused on keeping things clean & has developed such a fear for everything that's "dirty", that it's almost becomming a collective case of mysophobia.

by our definition, hygene = good, because with hygene we overcame many illnesses. supposedly, since we consider it "good", there can't be enough of it, but obviously that's turned out to be incorrect & apparently it's a matter of ballance, like most things.

in our Western society we deal with anaphylaxis/anaphylactic shock more often than with disease due to poor hygene. instead of awareness that too much hygene can be damaging, the consequence is that we collectively try to avoid the external substances that are allergens to who's allergic, making our species even weaker.

but to have a constructive discussion on the subject, you need to seperate this issue from vaccination (influenza/viral-issue) & antibiotics (MRSA/bacterial-issue), although it all has to do with overconcern for our health, or else it'd get way too broad. that was actually the reason for my last post.

Sunny
07-12-2008, 12:44 PM
i think the current obsession with hygiene is absolutely insane. i know people who are all about gel hand sanitizer (like, apply it obsessively every 30 minutes), spray antibacterial spray everywhere they go and carry antibacterial wipes in their purse. the fear of ZOMG BACTERIASES is fucking ridiculous. get a damn life, we're surrounded with (and filled with) all kinds of bacteria. you're going to be alright even if you don't clean/spray/wipe everything obsessively, i promise. it's going to be ok. unless you're like bubble boy, in which case i understand.

as for political correctness, well, i understand sensitivity and basic decency, like... don't use racist/sexist/hateful language, make an effort to be inclusive in your speech, etc. it's a good concept, and it shouldn't be dismissed just because a few very loud whackjobs take it to a ridiculous level. however, these whackjobs are truly something else.

for instance, recently i was instructed that it is offensive to refer to a person as "overweight" because the "over" part implies excess and judgment; the PC term is "person of size".
not long ago i stumbled across an (internet) discussion where a person was having their ass handed to them because they said "only women can get pregnant". well, since the recent pregnant man thing, people got really offended and were all like "nooo men can get pregnant too!! un-PC!" and i was just like... oh, hell, wtf. we also had plenty of that in the Democratic primary... Obama uses the word "periodically" in reference to Hillary and people flip their collective shit, because he said PERIOD.
so in short, good concept, often taken to the extreme by crazy people. whoops, i said crazy. my bad.

HornyPope
07-12-2008, 12:47 PM
My philosophy is you have to be ready to fight all the weaknesses in your body on your own first before you resort to medicine. It's a mental thing more than anything. You have to cultivate the spirit that you can confront the world as it is and come out stronger than ever.

JoY
07-12-2008, 01:01 PM
Sunny, it is total madness. the worst part is, people base their paranoia on medical history, when medicine is screaming like crazy for people to stop being so ridiculously clean.


unless you're like bubble boy, in which case i understand.


true to that. then you have a crippled immune system that should make you afraid of bacteria/viruses/etc. totally justified.


My philosophy is you have to be ready to fight all the weaknesses in your body on your own first before you resort to medicine. It's a mental thing more than anything. You have to cultivate the spirit that you can confront the world as it is and come out stronger than ever.

yesyesyes, it's a mental thing. medicine is holy in the eyes of the public, when doctors themselves are the last ones to resort to it. why do you think that is? it's not that beneficial to take a chemical substance from the pharmaceutic industry for every little discomfort you have, before checking if it's nothing your body can't handle.

IamSam
07-12-2008, 05:18 PM
And this is why I don't wash my hands after I poo, live in a garbage can, and stuff myself full of cookies. I don't wish to die of the flu.

Conspiracyof1000
07-12-2008, 09:04 PM
My thoughts on medication are seen in this informative video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rTthxiDsbQ

Llamas
07-12-2008, 10:23 PM
And on top of it all, you can't say a damn thing that could offend anyone. Everything has to be PC. Thus leading to Cookie monster and Oscar the Grouch being taken off of Sesame Street. How can anyone keep up with whats okay?
Ahhh I just looked that up. Sesame St really went down the tube :( How lame!


i think the current obsession with hygiene is absolutely insane. i know people who are all about gel hand sanitizer (like, apply it obsessively every 30 minutes), spray antibacterial spray everywhere they go and carry antibacterial wipes in their purse. the fear of ZOMG BACTERIASES is fucking ridiculous. get a damn life, we're surrounded with (and filled with) all kinds of bacteria. you're going to be alright even if you don't clean/spray/wipe everything obsessively, i promise. it's going to be ok. unless you're like bubble boy, in which case i understand.

as for political correctness, well, i understand sensitivity and basic decency, like... don't use racist/sexist/hateful language, make an effort to be inclusive in your speech, etc. it's a good concept, and it shouldn't be dismissed just because a few very loud whackjobs take it to a ridiculous level. however, these whackjobs are truly something else.

for instance, recently i was instructed that it is offensive to refer to a person as "overweight" because the "over" part implies excess and judgment; the PC term is "person of size".
not long ago i stumbled across an (internet) discussion where a person was having their ass handed to them because they said "only women can get pregnant". well, since the recent pregnant man thing, people got really offended and were all like "nooo men can get pregnant too!! un-PC!" and i was just like... oh, hell, wtf. we also had plenty of that in the Democratic primary... Obama uses the word "periodically" in reference to Hillary and people flip their collective shit, because he said PERIOD.
so in short, good concept, often taken to the extreme by crazy people. whoops, i said crazy. my bad.

I fully agree with everything Sunny said. I was at a store last fall, and my sister and I needed help getting something down. The lady behind the counter said, "Oh, well that lady over there... with the... darker complexion... will help you" very awkwardly. I really wanted to say back, "Oh. You mean the black lady?" I mean, come on. Calling someone black isn't even offensive. Darker complexion?

Bipolar Bear
07-12-2008, 11:47 PM
I fully agree with everything Sunny said. I was at a store last fall, and my sister and I needed help getting something down. The lady behind the counter said, "Oh, well that lady over there... with the... darker complexion... will help you" very awkwardly. I really wanted to say back, "Oh. You mean the black lady?" I mean, come on. Calling someone black isn't even offensive. Darker complexion?

Hahaha how pathetic. We're definitely going overboard right now. For example, here in Quebec they allow children from Iraq to wear their religious knives at school while all other children can't bring knives, for obvious reasons. They consider it "racist" to deny them that religious right. Isn't it ridiculous?

wheelchairman
07-13-2008, 04:20 AM
I always figured that society would ostracize those people Sunny is describing.

It's strange that the people most afraid of bacteria don't seem to realize that they are inhaling bacteria all the time. That the precautions they take do almost squat and that it's the resilience of our bodies and immune systems that prevent us from getting sick nonstop.

lost_nvrfound
07-13-2008, 07:25 PM
A note on the worsening allergies that joy mentioned, 100 years ago peanut allergies did not exist. Its only been in this century, especially in the last 50 years, that this has developed. So far, it seems like it goes right along with everything else.

I don't know. I get washing your hands after a visit to the throne and before you eat, but so many people are of this mind that "Oh, you touched something? HAND SANITIZER! Oh, you went down the slide? HAND SANITIZER before you can do it again!" My sister is getting to be like that. But she goes more for the alcohol wet naps, every time she does anything.

I know it was a broad subject. Sorry, I tend to lump them all together in general conversation. It keeps things more organized in my brain.

And an OH YEAH moment, cookie monster went under fire because he "promotes obesity". When I was a kid, it always seemed clear to me that Cookie Monster's behavior was bad. Wasn't that the point of Cookie Monster? You know, the whole 7 deadly sins thing?

Llamas
07-13-2008, 07:35 PM
And an OH YEAH moment, cookie monster went under fire because he "promotes obesity". When I was a kid, it always seemed clear to me that Cookie Monster's behavior was bad. Wasn't that the point of Cookie Monster? You know, the whole 7 deadly sins thing?

Duh. I mean, I didn't watch the show and think, "Man, cookie monster makes me want to eat lots of cookies." I remember thinking Cookie Monster was naughty for eating so many cookies, and everyone was hard on him for that.

I think many of the characters on that show were meant to show you that most people are flawed but still live happily. I read something that talked about how Sesame St was in the inner city, a place which is usually thought of as bad and run down. The point was supposedly to take certain bad qualities of places and people and put them in a positive light. Bringing about perfect flawless characters like Elmo and getting rid of those like Oscar and Cookie is doing the exact opposite of what Sesame St seemed to originally be about.

IamSam
07-13-2008, 07:39 PM
I can't agree more about the Cookie Monster. I always thought his lusting after cookies was wrong and I thought that it was obvious on the show. People will blame anything for their problems.

Little_Miss_1565
07-13-2008, 07:40 PM
I carry hand sanitizer in my bag but only because I take NYC public transportation. I watched a little kid spill a bag of pretzels on the subway and her mom (rightfully) made her clean them up. Off the floor. Off the floor where a hobo could have peed last night and the last person to have sat there could have stepped in dog shit. As soon as the kid was done, I offered a dollop of hand sanitizer and I feel like doing anything else would have been child abuse.

I think there's something to be said for everything in moderation.

IamSam
07-13-2008, 08:00 PM
I carry hand sanitizer in my bag but only because I take NYC public transportation. I watched a little kid spill a bag of pretzels on the subway and her mom (rightfully) made her clean them up. Off the floor. Off the floor where a hobo could have peed last night and the last person to have sat there could have stepped in dog shit. As soon as the kid was done, I offered a dollop of hand sanitizer and I feel like doing anything else would have been child abuse.

I think there's something to be said for everything in moderation.

I do agree with this. I was riding the B train through Manhattan and saw a woman pretty much suck some guys face off and then wiped the spit from his face with her hand and placed it on the pole. After that I didn't touch the poles and rode the subway like a surfboard.

EDIT: Like a surfboard on the inside. I didn't stand on the roof.

Llamas
07-13-2008, 08:04 PM
EDIT: Like a surfboard on the inside. I didn't stand on the roof.

haha, I wouldn't have thought of that if you'd not pointed it out, but I lol'd when I imagined someone doing that. When asked wtf you were doing up there, "the inside is soooo unsanitary!"

Little_Miss_1565
07-13-2008, 08:16 PM
EDIT: Like a surfboard on the inside. I didn't stand on the roof.

Ah yes, the subway stance. I like to read on the subway too much so I usually only do that if the car is crowded.

nieh
07-13-2008, 08:18 PM
i think the current obsession with hygiene is absolutely insane. i know people who are all about gel hand sanitizer (like, apply it obsessively every 30 minutes)

You know Three G's?

lost_nvrfound
07-15-2008, 01:48 PM
EDIT: Like a surfboard on the inside. I didn't stand on the roof.
That makes me think of every action movie with a train scene. Then I think of whatever movie it is where the good guy and bad guy are fighting on the roof of the subway, and the bad guy meets his end via a sign/light mounted to the ceiling of the tunnel.

Vera
07-16-2008, 06:40 AM
Check out the Cookie Monster on the Colber Report: http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/videos.jhtml?videoId=174545

He makes a good case for himself. "Me had crazy times during the 70's and 80's."

wheelchairman
07-16-2008, 06:49 AM
"Me like Robert Downey Jr. of Cookies."

lost_nvrfound
07-16-2008, 08:15 PM
Cookies are a sometimes food? Wtf is that???

I mean, seriously, they should just take it one step futher for the whole shebang!

Now introducing... Skinless Boiled Chicken Monster!

TheHulaChick
07-18-2008, 10:20 AM
I've been checking out the forums alot lately, been meaning to post again and this topic bugs me, so here we go...

I used to work as a courier and whenever I would go to one particular clients office with a delivery I would always catch them in the act of wiping down their keyboards/phones with antibacterial wipes and then they would refuse to use the attached stylus to sign on my PDA, instead spending minutes going through their drawers trying to find there own "sanitary" stylus, then proceed to take the PDA in their hands and sign the screen with their stylus. Whaaat? I don't get it. It's just a pen! Probably no worse than ANY office pen. And why are you ok with touching the PDA and not the pen? It'll be rubber gloves next time I go in I'm sure.

It's all getting just a teeny bit over the top...

When I have kids, they're playing in the good old dirt and sandpit and watching old Sesame St with all it's Oscar and Cookie Monster goodness.

lost_nvrfound
07-18-2008, 06:40 PM
Thats exactly what i mean! But I guess when all of those obssesive sanitizer people die from some crazy disease that their immune system can't handle but our fully developed ones can, then we'll just have to consider that thinning the herd. More cookies for me.