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m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:17 PM
Hello all,

I'm a University Music Student from Australia studying technical production and business.

There has been alot of arguing on this message board about The similaritie between the breadown of Hammerhead and the main riff of Nirvana's Stay Away. I would just like to finally clear up the copyright implications that MAY have been breached on this occasion.

The Law states that one cannot copy melody from a song or that songs main Hook. Though a hook can be used if at least 10% off that riff is changed. Changes in riffs refers to the change of rhythmic paterns and melodic contous (the interval space in between notes) not simply transposing he song into a different key. Also a chord progression can not be claimed as copyright only melody and rhythm (for example you could use the chrd progression from pretty fly for a white guy as long as you changed the strumming pattern by atleast 10%).

Having explained a whole lot of copyright jargon it comes down to this. Offspring took 100% of the 'Hook" from Nirvana's Stay Away, they did however transpose it to another key, although this doees not count as changing the riff due to each interval between notes is exactly the same.

So as long as The Offspring have not seeked permission from the owners of the work (I don;t believe courtney love owns the rights any more due to she sold them), they have committed a breach of copyright. It is therefore upto the artist to either claim a portion of the royalties if they wish or simply allow the riff to be used with no legal action.

Personally as a musician and song writter i believe that the offspring have made a very lazy attempt at writting a song. They would have been fully aware of the riffs origins.

Also I do not care wat any of you say. The riff is exactly the same yet in a different key.

-m0rt

lost_nvrfound
08-05-2008, 11:19 PM
thats bullshit... if everyone sued for use of the same riff, progression and rhthym, then there'd be no songs because there is only so much you can do with three chords

EDIT: a different key would make fit the 10% parameters

Ryder1234
08-05-2008, 11:20 PM
But they made it about 100 times better. So STFU.

KHWHD
08-05-2008, 11:21 PM
I highly doubt you'll get a response from them on here if that's what you're hoping for.

KHWHD
08-05-2008, 11:22 PM
Also I do not care wat any of you say. The riff is exactly the same yet in a different key.

If you don't care, then why are you here? Cause you know damn well you're going to get slammed by posting that here.

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:24 PM
thats bullshit... if everyone sued for use of the same riff, progression and rhthym, then there'd be no songs because there is only so much you can do with three chords

That is correct the same three chords have been used time and time again but rhythms and duration of chords has been changed. I'm just telling you wat the law states mate. And i'm right because its sitting in front of me in the copyrights act of australia and in the american one aswell.

This is how it works u can use the chords aslong as you alter the rhythm and spacing by atleast 10%. They have simply copied it.

If you want a good example. The chorus of Time of your Life by green day and the verse chords from About a girl by nirvana are the same though they dont sound the same due to their rhythmic diferences

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:26 PM
If you don't care, then why are you here? Cause you know damn well you're going to get slammed by posting that here.

I'm here because I love Nirvana (I used to like the offspring gone off them as i grew up) and as a musician I am very much against copyright infringement. And

AND you are all squabbling saying "So what people do it all the time!!!" no they dont, not copying riffs 100%, thats ilegal

rise_and_fall
08-05-2008, 11:26 PM
I'm not going to pay him out cause he'd Australian. I really think that you people who are paying him out should stop because its just childish. He brought up a point the in his opinion was a valid point. Now he didn't insult anyone directly so why are you all being bogans and just paying him out?

Ryder1234
08-05-2008, 11:26 PM
There's been other songs with the same chords, and progression. It's not the first time. I doubt that the surviving members of Nirvana, or even Kurt if he was alive today, would care about this.

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:28 PM
I'm not going to pay him out cause he'd Australian. I really think that you people who are paying him out should stop because its just childish. He brought up a point the in his opinion was a valid point. Now he didn't insult anyone directly so why are you all being bogans and just paying him out?

Thanks mate.

No i did not insult anyone i just told you FACT. I didn;t even tell you an opinion. It's both legal and Musical fact.

jacknife737
08-05-2008, 11:29 PM
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/jacknife737/picard-facepalm.jpg 10 characters

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:30 PM
There's been other songs with the same chords, and progression. It's not the first time. I doubt that the surviving members of Nirvana, or even Kurt if he was alive today, would care about this.

Sorry mate mut your not even listening (or reading due to its a post) It's perfectly legal to use a progression as long as you change it in someway. You can not imitate it bar for bar

Ryder1234
08-05-2008, 11:30 PM
mythoughs. you read minds

(at jacknife)

lost_nvrfound
08-05-2008, 11:30 PM
This is how it works u can use the chords aslong as you alter the rhythm and spacing by atleast 10%. They have simply copied it.
Doubt highly that he "copied" it. It happens all the time unintentionally. Whether he did or not, the whole legal thing wouldn't fly around here and its really a non argument one way or the other.

EDIT: Nirvana is overrated garbage anyways, so why am I even bothering...?

Ryder1234
08-05-2008, 11:33 PM
Sorry mate mut your not even listening (or reading due to its a post) It's perfectly legal to use a progression as long as you change it in someway. You can not imitate it bar for bar

What I meant is that there has been other songs that HAVE imitated another song bar for bar before. Progressions can only be changed so many times until they cant be changed anymore.

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:34 PM
Doubt highly that he "copied" it. It happens all the time unintentionally. Whether he did or not, the whole legal thing wouldn't fly around here and its really a non argument one way or the other.

EDIT: Nirvana is overrated garbage anyways, so why am I even bothering...?

When you have a riff in your song from what is regarded by many as the best album of the bas 20 years, its pretty likely at some stage your going to say "Hang on that sounds like......."

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:37 PM
What I meant is that there has been other songs that HAVE imitated another song bar for bar before. Progressions can only be changed so many times until they cant be changed anymore.

You'd be very suprised how much you can change it. Think about how many different chords there (Major, Minor, 5th, 7th, AUG, DIM, SUS4, 13th) and rhyhtmic patterns and time signatures.

Maybe we should be thinking "Have the offspring ran out of ideas?"

Ryder1234
08-05-2008, 11:38 PM
Not necessarily. Sometimes you don't remember a song (like, when this whole thing was brought up like 5 months ago, I had to go back and listen to the song again to hear it), or even think about it. Stressing over mixing and recording a CD could make you forget about a similarity with a song.

lost_nvrfound
08-05-2008, 11:39 PM
You'd be very suprised how much you can change it. Think about how many different chords there (Major, Minor, 5th, 7th, AUG, DIM, SUS4, 13th) and rhyhtmic patterns and time signatures.

Maybe we should be thinking "Have the offspring ran out of ideas?"
unfortunately... its what is known as the power chord... its always the same and both kurt and dexter are guilty of using it

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:42 PM
unfortunately... its what is known as the power chord... its always the same and both kurt and dexter are guilty of using it

Exactly why else do u think that rock music is dying? Bands like muse are the only ones reinventing it

The genre is heading towards more single line based riffs not chords, its the only way to stay fresh.

lost_nvrfound
08-05-2008, 11:44 PM
so, since you understand that, you really shouldn't let your panties get all in a twist over it. Jimmy Neutron did an episode where they used the exact riff from an offspring song and nobody flipped out about that.

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:49 PM
so, since you understand that, you really shouldn't let your panties get all in a twist over it. Jimmy Neutron did an episode where they used the exact riff from an offspring song and nobody flipped out about that.

ROFL, noone flips out wen adds use other songs and slightly change them to sound slightly different because nooes making mass amount of money off the song. If i had written a riff and used it in a song and then 10 years later someone used it in theres i'd be like "HEY, I WROTE THAT!!!" same if someone coppied a panting i'd painted or a charcater i had invented for a book. Artists are very attached to their work

Ryder1234
08-05-2008, 11:51 PM
I wouldn't. I'd just be like "cool, someone thinks me shit is cool enough to use it in their song". Unless I was bigger than them, but then I still wouldn't care.

Also, spelling.

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:52 PM
EDIT: a different key would make fit the 10% parameters

Key is exempt from the 10% change be cause if falls under chords not under melody or rhythm. You obviously have no idea about music

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:53 PM
I wouldn't. I'd just be like "cool, someone thinks me shit is cool enough to use it in their song". Unless I was bigger than them, but then I still wouldn't care.

Also, spelling.

I only have two fingers on my left hand, thats why my spelling is sometimes bad

lost_nvrfound
08-05-2008, 11:54 PM
With my art, if someone uses it, I more have the reaction of "Shit, that means they like it! Fuckin sweet!"

Believe me, I know how artists are. You should see the size of my portfolio (if you could call it that, seeing as its really just a pile in the corner of my room). But if someone liked it enough to use it, then that says something.

EDIT: Don't even begin to accuse me of not knowing music. My entire family is full of musicians. If its in a different key, its not the same, whatever you may think or the law may say. Besides a single riff is incredibly different from an entire song. If they copied the entire song in a different key, then there'd be a case for copyright infringement. But a riff is not.

m0rt
08-05-2008, 11:55 PM
With my art, if someone uses it, I more have the reaction of "Shit, that means they like it! Fuckin sweet!"

Believe me, I know how artists are. You should see the size of my portfolio (if you could call it that, seeing as its really just a pile in the corner of my room). But if someone liked it enough to use it, then that says something.

So you'd slave away on ur art and hand it over without being paid for it?

Ryder1234
08-05-2008, 11:57 PM
I only have two fingers on my left hand, thats why my spelling is sometimes bad

How'd that happen?

lost_nvrfound
08-05-2008, 11:58 PM
So you'd slave away on ur art and hand it over without being paid for it?
I wouldn't say that i slave away at it. If one finds themselves slaving over it, then it just becomes work.

m0rt
08-06-2008, 12:04 AM
I wouldn't say that i slave away at it. If one finds themselves slaving over it, then it just becomes work.

For some people art is work. Anyway, I'm away from this message board.

lost_nvrfound
08-06-2008, 12:07 AM
If it were what i did for a living, then fine. But its not so i don't care. Either way, your arguing a point for a dead guy

Ryder1234
08-06-2008, 12:08 AM
according to Who's Online?, you're still watching this thread.

jacknife737
08-06-2008, 12:10 AM
The moment this thread is locked, will be a happy time for me.

lost_nvrfound
08-06-2008, 12:12 AM
The moment this thread is locked, will be a happy time for me.
no kidding... i didn't intend to bite the bait... but i couldn't help myself

Ninty Man
08-06-2008, 12:15 AM
I'm here because I love Nirvana (I used to like the offspring gone off them as i grew up) and as a musician I am very much against copyright infringement. And

AND you are all squabbling saying "So what people do it all the time!!!" no they dont, not copying riffs 100%, thats ilegal

Nirvana sucked the shit off, and they copy every punk chord , or power chord, so then we should kill every Nirvana fan and burn every Nirvana album

Keep 'em Seperated
08-06-2008, 01:18 AM
I haven't heard the Nirvana song so I can't really comment but I have a few points:

1. If its in a different key, its different. Full stop.

2. How the hell do you judge 10%? 10% of what? Sounds like a legal mess.

3. If you're going to hang The Offspring for "stealing" off Nirvana, at least target Vultures, which sounds similar to Nirvana. Problem is it sounds like Dirty Magic a bit so the law could be fun there. Also, because I'm a n00b when it comes to Nirvana, I'd be interested to know what came first: Smells like Teen Spirit of Self Esteem? Self Esteem sounds suspiciously like a slower version of the Teen Spirit riff.

4. Muse might be changing rock, but they are still horrible in my book. But I hate their genre anyways so my opnion is limited there.

5. I suspect no one would care as much as they do now about Nirvana if Cobain hadn't died. Plus the Foo Fighters are far superior.

And just looking at some of my points up there, see how murky the line is there? Airbourne (Aussie band) sound like ACDC, Seether sound similar to Nirvana, does anybody care? No.

Muse also remind me of every other soft rock/Indie/little bitch band out there with a sqeaky singer, and infuriatingly everyone loves them, but I try in vain to keep my whinging about it to a minimum. They can do what they want, its a semi-free world after all.

disclaimer_07
08-06-2008, 01:35 AM
Lol, this whole thread makes me wonder how much similarity there is between Come As You Are and Vultures, Smells Like Teen Spirit and Self Esteem, and so on :P

Jesus
08-06-2008, 01:46 AM
Anybody who feels the need to drop "University Music Student" or "I'm a musician" to make an argument, doesn't really help his case. It just makes you sound like a douchebag. Nervemind the obvious fact that also boasting about a specialized intellectual proprety rights law degree would make more sense.

I especially love that ending "Also I do not care wat any of you say".

Anyway, I'm off to do more copyright infrigment. I think I'm gonna download "Hello, I Love You" by The Doors or "All Day and All of the Night" by The Kinks. Followed by "Stay Away" by Nirvana and "Hammerhead" by The Offspring. Hell I might even hear 4 similar sounding riffs too then!

JeromeFleur
08-06-2008, 02:23 AM
The guy have an interesting argument, better than a lot of those I read. No need to bitch him personnally.

No, it's not very original, I agree. But still, it's enjoyable to listen to it, so I will continue to do so. ;)

I have a question for M0rt :
But what if an artist take a riff (for example, a bass riff), but change the arrangements of the other instruments (like the rythm in both the drums and the guitars)? What does the law say?

Free?
08-06-2008, 03:05 AM
Dude, what will you say about Self-Esteem and Smells Like Teen Spirit, Why Don't You Get A Job and that Oba-dee The Beatles song, Vultures and Come As You Are? And I believe there was a song of The Doors with that Hammerhead riff years before Nirvana written Stay Away.
If you will go on with finding out about who ripped who, in the end you will find that The Beatles and Jimi Hendrix are the only original musicians. But somehow I don't care about similar riffs which in most cases can be called "influences", I L-O-V-E Hammerhead and what was the point of this thread? To say that Offspring ran out of ideas while covering yourself with your copyright law's knowledge? How can you say that about a song from the most diverse Offspring album yet?

holland25
08-06-2008, 05:00 AM
This is the best argument I've read in a long time. Really, every song is a rip-off of another one these times, so this makes no sense...

m0rt
08-06-2008, 05:29 AM
The guy have an interesting argument, better than a lot of those I read. No need to bitch him personnally.

No, it's not very original, I agree. But still, it's enjoyable to listen to it, so I will continue to do so. ;)

I have a question for M0rt :
But what if an artist take a riff (for example, a bass riff), but change the arrangements of the other instruments (like the rythm in both the drums and the guitars)? What does the law say?

If a melody is used in any part of a song is atleast 91% of the original, then its illegal.

Also it is very easy to deterbine 10% of a piece of music. Break it down into bits of 10!

m0rt
08-06-2008, 05:33 AM
Dude, what will you say about Self-Esteem and Smells Like Teen Spirit, Why Don't You Get A Job and that Oba-dee The Beatles song, Vultures and Come As You Are? And I believe there was a song of The Doors with that Hammerhead riff years before Nirvana written Stay Away.
If you will go on with finding out about who ripped who, in the end you will find that The Beatles and Jimi Hendrix are the only original musicians. But somehow I don't care about similar riffs which in most cases can be called "influences", I L-O-V-E Hammerhead and what was the point of this thread? To say that Offspring ran out of ideas while covering yourself with your copyright law's knowledge? How can you say that about a song from the most diverse Offspring album yet?

Self Esteem and Smells Like Teen spirit are completely different melodically. They are similar rhythmically but different melodically. The last chord of each is a different interval away. The last chord in Smells like teen spirit goes up a 4th from the last where as in Self Esteem it goes down in pitch (not sure what interval because i don't really listen to the song that much).

ad8
08-06-2008, 05:35 AM
Personally as a musician and song writter i believe that the offspring have made a very lazy attempt at writting a song. They would have been fully aware of the riffs origins.

Also I do not care wat any of you say. The riff is exactly the same yet in a different key.

-m0rt

Get the fuck outta here. And please don't feed the trolls.

keonii7
08-06-2008, 05:35 AM
Even if the offspring did get sued, they still made an incredible song, and that's not gonna change.

Static_Martyr
08-06-2008, 05:36 AM
.....what?

Offspring kick ass. That's all I need to know :) Although, thanks to these ridiculous arguments, I've been gathering information about new bands that I might like. For example, I came into contact with MCR's "Helena" after hearing that it was similar to Half-Truism.

m0rt
08-06-2008, 05:45 AM
Btw i just listened to Hello I Love You by the doors. Only the interval from the first chord to the second is the same as in stay away by nirvana. The rhythm is also the same for those chords. However the other hlaf of the riff is completely different.

We are talking about an entirey different situation

THE OFFSPRING TOOK THE ENTIRE RIFF!!

holland25
08-06-2008, 06:17 AM
Only the interval from the first chord to the second is the same as in stay away by nirvana. The rhythm is also the same for those chords. However the other hlaf of the riff is completely different.

So this is not more than 10% ripoff?

Jojan
08-06-2008, 07:29 AM
One does not simply m0rt into Mordor.

Rooster
08-06-2008, 09:50 AM
ROFL, noone flips out wen adds use other songs and slightly change them to sound slightly different because nooes making mass amount of money off the song. If i had written a riff and used it in a song and then 10 years later someone used it in theres i'd be like "HEY, I WROTE THAT!!!" same if someone coppied a panting i'd painted or a charcater i had invented for a book. Artists are very attached to their work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=advxtHtTkoQ

I know this is old, but i think you gotta see this. I don't hear Dillinger Four complain about Green Day ripping copying their riff (don't start with your more than 10 % thing, anyone can tell AI main riff is almost the same, holy fuck, the whole song is very similar to D4's song). Only big commercial fucks would complain about things like this, and i donn't think Kurt Cobain was one of them. Check this out (i know this was MEANT to be a parody rip-off song, but still):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixyTNd-Ln38

You know what Cobain (and other Nirvana members) did when they saw this? They laughed their asses off. I don't think Cobain would give a fuck about The Offspring borrowing his riff, he made music because he loved to, not because he would want to make money from it (he made a lot of money, but that's another matter).

I like Nirvana, i don't care when others say they are overrated or that they suck, because it's their own opinion, and i still don't have a problem with The Offspring borrowing (and changing a bit) their riff. Dexter likes Nirvana, maybe he intentionally did this (as a kind of homage to Nirvana), maybe just subconsciously. What really matters is that Hammerhead still fuckin rocks.

I'm seriously sick of all the threads where someone accuses The Offspring of ripping other bands off. These things have been discussed a few million times already.

bighead384
08-06-2008, 09:53 AM
This guy is right, and if you don't agree with him, you're a conformist.

Stylie
08-06-2008, 09:58 AM
Maybe we should be thinking "Have the offspring ran out of ideas?"

Hooow dare you? Now you're just irrelevant.

Lupin
08-06-2008, 10:05 AM
http://www.spin.com/articles/tom-petty-vs-red-hot-chili-peppers

This has been on before, but this happens all the time. If Tom Petty doesn't care, why should anyone else...and this was an out right 'nickage'

ad8
08-06-2008, 10:11 AM
Btw i just listened to Hello I Love You by the doors. Only the interval from the first chord to the second is the same as in stay away by nirvana. The rhythm is also the same for those chords. However the other hlaf of the riff is completely different.

We are talking about an entirey different situation

THE OFFSPRING TOOK THE ENTIRE RIFF!!

And this is the reason why you come here and bitch around? Go tell the band about their "rip-off" and please leave us alone. If Kurt Cobain was still alive, he'd shoot himself in case he read this.

Rooster
08-06-2008, 10:27 AM
Hey, this band ripped-off Come Out And Play's main riff! OH NOOOOOOOOOOEZ! THE OFFSPRING SHOULD SUE THEIR ASSES!

I heard this song in Harold & Kumar Escape From Guantanamo Bay (at the beginning of the scene when Kumar is in library and smokes weed for the first time), i thought the riff was almost exactly the same as The Offspring's, only a bit different rhytm. And you know what? I don't give a fuck, and i doubt that The Offspring will. Just listen to Chinese Baby song on their myspace:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=193729906

Little_Miss_1565
08-06-2008, 10:28 AM
m0rt, if you're really studying music as you say, why don't you know (and accept) that they are not the first, nor will they be the last?

And LOL of LOLs, you didn't mention the Doors riff.

Basically, don't ride in here on some kind of high horse.

bighead384
08-06-2008, 10:45 AM
Wow...I just listened to Stay Away for the first time in years...

I understand that rock music reuses different power chord progressions. However, the riff in Stay Away is unique, and Hammerhead sounds EXACTLY like it. Stop lying to yourselves.

Rooster
08-06-2008, 10:50 AM
Wow...I just listened to Stay Away for the first time in years...

I understand that rock music reuses different power chord progressions. However, the riff in Stay Away is unique, and Hammerhead sounds EXACTLY like it. Stop lying to yourselves.

Well, almost exactly like it (i don't think anyone denied this), they are still a bit different (but just a small bit) - the riff in Hammerhead is played in a little different key than Stay Away, but that's it. Both songs still rock, so i don't really bother with this. However, i'm quite sick of thousands of threads about the same thing, which had already been discussed to death.

Stylie
08-06-2008, 10:58 AM
http://i34.tinypic.com/o5s5yd.jpg

Hahah, I found this picture VERY hilarious.

IamSam
08-06-2008, 11:51 AM
Who cares? It sounds good.

Thomas
08-06-2008, 12:09 PM
The Offspring just Dain'd Nirvana. lolololololololol



It's a pretty sad thought that people can't just listen to music and ENJOY it. Who cares if the riff is the same? The songs have completely different feels and sounds, so why does it matter? Just listen to the song and enjoy it, or, if you don't like the song, don't listen to it. You don't have to pick songs apart or find justification for liking songs, just enjoy them. That's the point of music anyway, so why do anything else with it?

HeadAroundU
08-06-2008, 01:27 PM
So what's percentage of identity between The Offspring and The Doors, and between Nirvana and The Doors?

Free?
08-06-2008, 01:43 PM
So what's percentage of identity between The Offspring and The Doors, and between Nirvana and The Doors?

And the most important - is that legal? We should warn guys immediately so they can think of an escape plan from lawyers!

Rooster
08-06-2008, 01:54 PM
We should warn guys immediately so they can think of an escape plan from lawyers!

Good idea, although i think they know this by now... They chech the boards every now and then. The getaway would be easy for them, since Dexter owns a jet... They can hide in my garage, no one would look for them there...

Free?
08-06-2008, 02:02 PM
Good idea, although i think they know this by now... They chech the boards every now and then. The getaway would be easy for them, since Dexter owns a jet... They can hide in my garage, no one would look for them there...

Ahhhaaaa... And they will continue their evil ripping others' riffs in your garage. No rest for m0rt!

Rooster
08-06-2008, 02:16 PM
Ahhhaaaa... And they will continue their evil ripping others' riffs in your garage. No rest for m0rt!

Yep, and we'd all get drunk every now and then (read: every 12 hours)...

Keep 'em Seperated
08-07-2008, 01:08 AM
Just been listening to Hammerhead. I've never heard Stay Away, but one thing I'm sure on is the riff gets used all the time. It sounds like a very mainstream riff, but it works, and if Nirvana are the only previous band to use it then pigs can fly.

I also agree with the dude who said that if you followe back who copied who the only orignal artists would be the Beatles and Jimi Hendrix.

In tribute to the horrific plagirism (sic) of The Offspring, I'm going to write the new track list for Rise and Fall, Rage and Grace.

1. My Chemical Romance-Helena
2. The Offspring-Smash
3. Panic! at the Disco-
4. Nirvana-Stay Away
5. Linkin Park-What I've Done
6. NOFX-
7. Greenday-Wake Me Up When September Ends
8. Greenday-
9. Greenday-Holiday
10. Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars
11. Bowling For Soup-
12. Greenday-American Idiot

Keep 'em Seperated
08-07-2008, 01:10 AM
Good idea, although i think they know this by now... They chech the boards every now and then. The getaway would be easy for them, since Dexter owns a jet... They can hide in my garage, no one would look for them there...

Dexter needs to get himself a fighter jet. Those pesky lawyers wouldn't be suing then..

killboybowerhead
08-07-2008, 01:29 AM
dude... its all just music.

JeromeFleur
08-07-2008, 01:34 AM
dude... its all just music.

yeah but music is important! ;)

JeromeFleur
08-07-2008, 01:41 AM
http://www.spin.com/articles/tom-petty-vs-red-hot-chili-peppers

This has been on before, but this happens all the time. If Tom Petty doesn't care, why should anyone else...and this was an out right 'nickage'

yeah but tom petty ripped off bob dylan singing style, so what could he say? :P

m0rt
08-07-2008, 05:05 AM
I would like to start off first by saying you are all idiots (except the 1 person who agrees).

You're all goin "This song SOUNDS like it too!!! That song SOUNDS like it as well!!!".

You're all either extremely stubborn or extremely stupid and can;t read properly (in other words Americans).

You can use the same chords as another artist or the same progression CHORDS ARE NOT COVERED BY COPYRIGHT!!!!

Melody is only covered by copy right. OFFSPRING TOOK THE EXAC T SAME MELODY!!! THIS IS ILLEGAL!!!! If they had taen the chords and changed the melody, fine wuldn;t give a rats toss bag! BUT THEY DIDN'T. THEY TOOK IT BAR FOR BAR, CROTCHET FOR CROTCHET (and because ur probably Americans a crotchet is also known as a quater note). If anyone else says "But this song has the same chords" i'm not even gonna clock your youtube link.

So just to clear this up

Copying chords = ok

Copying melody = bad

simple enough for you?

Free?
08-07-2008, 05:21 AM
I guess it can not be helped then... Report about this crime to lawyers. Oh wait... I think if the album is already in sale it means that everything is legal?

And again, what about Why Don't You Get A Job? and that The Beatles song?

Stylie
08-07-2008, 05:27 AM
I would like to start off first by saying you are all idiots (except the 1 person who agrees).

You're all goin "This song SOUNDS like it too!!! That song SOUNDS like it as well!!!".

You're all either extremely stubborn or extremely stupid and can;t read properly (in other words Americans).

You can use the same chords as another artist or the same progression CHORDS ARE NOT COVERED BY COPYRIGHT!!!!

Melody is only covered by copy right. OFFSPRING TOOK THE EXAC T SAME MELODY!!! THIS IS ILLEGAL!!!! If they had taen the chords and changed the melody, fine wuldn;t give a rats toss bag! BUT THEY DIDN'T. THEY TOOK IT BAR FOR BAR, CROTCHET FOR CROTCHET (and because ur probably Americans a crotchet is also known as a quater note). If anyone else says "But this song has the same chords" i'm not even gonna clock your youtube link.

So just to clear this up

Copying chords = ok

Copying melody = bad

simple enough for you?

Assh.le.

Well, what's your problem then? Go and sue The Offspring, and let's see who wins. Can't you just do that if you're so damn sure? Come hear and wine, that's all you can do.


EDIT: And Free? is absolutely right. ;)

Jesus
08-07-2008, 06:09 AM
So lets for the sake of argument say that you (m0rt) are correct in a legal sense. Then I would still fail to see why the one thing would be okay and the other bad in a moral sense. Simply because something is legal doesn't make it ok, just like illegal doesn't make it bad. So your whole "Copying chords = ok" "Copying melody = bad" doesn't really make sense for me. I simply (like most sane people I guess) don't care what the law states about it, or about the similarities between the songs. I just think all 4 songs are pretty great. Some better than others.

Drums beating in my Heart
08-07-2008, 06:38 AM
and I still believe Hammerhead and Stay Away are both different songs...

gijserman
08-07-2008, 06:56 AM
Btw i just listened to Hello I Love You by the doors. Only the interval from the first chord to the second is the same as in stay away by nirvana. The rhythm is also the same for those chords. However the other hlaf of the riff is completely different.

We are talking about an entirey different situation

THE OFFSPRING TOOK THE ENTIRE RIFF!!

Actually, the melody is different. just a tiny bit though.

dff_punk
08-07-2008, 07:05 AM
Why are you people still fucking discussing this.

Camilamazed
08-07-2008, 07:21 AM
1. My Chemical Romance-Helena
2. The Offspring-Smash
3. Panic! at the Disco-
4. Nirvana-Stay Away
5. Linkin Park-What I've Done
6. NOFX-
7. Greenday-Wake Me Up When September Ends
8. Greenday-
9. Greenday-Holiday
10. Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars
11. Bowling For Soup-
12. Greenday-American Idiot

Looks pretty much they tried to make an album only for covers.. Wait?! Shenanigans rip off?

lol

selfDemanDeD
08-07-2008, 08:00 AM
Actually, to the first comparsion (Hammerhead - Stay Away): man, you suck. Stay Away is in minor chord, Hammerhead - in major. And the thing, which goes "do-do#-re" in HH is very popular amongst many genres. So no reason for bitchin'.

lost_nvrfound
08-07-2008, 10:03 AM
OKAY! We get it! Everyone is under the opinion that this guys a moron, right? He just came on here to rile people up in an attempt to make himself feel important (or to make up for his small dick). I apologize myself for taking his bait, but in my defense, it was late and I was really bored....

So just let this thread die...:D mmkay?

Little_Miss_1565
08-07-2008, 10:47 AM
So lets for the sake of argument say that you (m0rt) are correct in a legal sense. Then I would still fail to see why the one thing would be okay and the other bad in a moral sense. Simply because something is legal doesn't make it ok, just like illegal doesn't make it bad. So your whole "Copying chords = ok" "Copying melody = bad" doesn't really make sense for me. I simply (like most sane people I guess) don't care what the law states about it, or about the similarities between the songs. I just think all 4 songs are pretty great. Some better than others.

Quoted for truth. It's not that anyone disagrees with you, m0rt, it's that nobody cares. There are so many reasons for doing it, too -- like making references to something in this great postmodern age of ours. Not saying that's what the Offspring are doing, but it's always possible.

I have to question why you joined the forum only to try and piss on everyone's Cheerios, and why you only come back to get upset that people aren't up in arms. What's your damage?

Drums beating in my Heart
08-07-2008, 11:22 AM
*screaming* waaah, mama, The Offspring ripped off nirvana :( ooh, I can't take it anymore, I have to cut myself *whine whine whine*

I believe m0rt wants reactions like this one
:P

killboybowerhead
08-07-2008, 01:21 PM
You're all either extremely stubborn or extremely stupid and can;t read properly (in other words Americans).


Im sorry you feel that way about americans. You're sad.

jacknife737
08-07-2008, 03:10 PM
I would like to start off first by saying you are all idiots (except the 1 person who agrees).

You're all goin "This song SOUNDS like it too!!! That song SOUNDS like it as well!!!".

You're all either extremely stubborn or extremely stupid and can;t read properly (in other words Americans).

You can use the same chords as another artist or the same progression CHORDS ARE NOT COVERED BY COPYRIGHT!!!!

Melody is only covered by copy right. OFFSPRING TOOK THE EXAC T SAME MELODY!!! THIS IS ILLEGAL!!!! If they had taen the chords and changed the melody, fine wuldn;t give a rats toss bag! BUT THEY DIDN'T. THEY TOOK IT BAR FOR BAR, CROTCHET FOR CROTCHET (and because ur probably Americans a crotchet is also known as a quater note). If anyone else says "But this song has the same chords" i'm not even gonna clock your youtube link.

My god... have you called the FBI?


Seriously though, stop being such a tool. Hammerhead is a song that's been played on worldwide radio for well over a couple months now, not to mention the fact that the album has been on sale for almost a month. If there was something illegally copied in the song, it would have been brought to the public’s attention by now. Stop acting like a copyright lawyer just because you read something online.

Rooster
08-07-2008, 04:12 PM
I would like to start off first by saying you are all idiots (except the 1 person who agrees).

You're all goin "This song SOUNDS like it too!!! That song SOUNDS like it as well!!!".

You're all either extremely stubborn or extremely stupid and can;t read properly (in other words Americans).

You can use the same chords as another artist or the same progression CHORDS ARE NOT COVERED BY COPYRIGHT!!!!

Melody is only covered by copy right. OFFSPRING TOOK THE EXAC T SAME MELODY!!! THIS IS ILLEGAL!!!! If they had taen the chords and changed the melody, fine wuldn;t give a rats toss bag! BUT THEY DIDN'T. THEY TOOK IT BAR FOR BAR, CROTCHET FOR CROTCHET (and because ur probably Americans a crotchet is also known as a quater note). If anyone else says "But this song has the same chords" i'm not even gonna clock your youtube link.

So just to clear this up

Copying chords = ok

Copying melody = bad

simple enough for you?

OK, everyone who likes the song is a fucking idiot (me included). Well, it's time for you to realise that this forum is full of idiots then. Why did you join, if you hate idiots? Why don't you get a job? Just sue them then, if it bothers you so much and stop making bad mood here. If Courtney Love didn't sue them by now i doubt that anyone else (except from you apparently) wishes to do so.

http://www.offspring.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=105&pictureid=731

Enough said.

Rooster
08-07-2008, 04:52 PM
Oh, i just remembered something... I read (on wikipedia i think) that in the Song For The Dead by Quees Of The Stone Age the intro drumming part was DIRECTLY COPIED from a Black Flag's song (i'm citing it):

"The intro to track #4, "A Song for the Dead", is an homage to Black Flag; the drums in that segment are lifted directly from the Black Flag song "Slip It In"

Now what does your law say about this? A few years have passed and no one was upset about QOTSA copying Black Flag's drumming, no one sued them.

My point here is, why would anyone care about such things? If the musicians don't care, why should you make such a big deal from it?

And you are saying you won't click the links to other songs that have the basically the same riffs. Why not? Probably others are allowed copying (Green Day from Dillinger Four - they copied more than just a riff, the whole song is similar), but The Offspring aren't? Or you just don't want to see (or hear) a proof that you might be wrong?

Kurt Cobain would have felt sorry for you...

Stylie
08-07-2008, 05:55 PM
And you are saying you won't click the links to other songs that have the basically the same riffs. Why not? Probably others are allowed copying (Green Day from Dillinger Four - they copied more than just a riff, the whole song is similar), but The Offspring aren't? Or you just don't want to see (or hear) a proof that you might be wrong?

I love you.

IamSam
08-07-2008, 10:47 PM
I would like to start off first by saying you are all idiots (except the 1 person who agrees).

You're all goin "This song SOUNDS like it too!!! That song SOUNDS like it as well!!!".

You're all either extremely stubborn or extremely stupid and can;t read properly (in other words Americans).

You can use the same chords as another artist or the same progression CHORDS ARE NOT COVERED BY COPYRIGHT!!!!

Melody is only covered by copy right. OFFSPRING TOOK THE EXAC T SAME MELODY!!! THIS IS ILLEGAL!!!! If they had taen the chords and changed the melody, fine wuldn;t give a rats toss bag! BUT THEY DIDN'T. THEY TOOK IT BAR FOR BAR, CROTCHET FOR CROTCHET (and because ur probably Americans a crotchet is also known as a quater note). If anyone else says "But this song has the same chords" i'm not even gonna clock your youtube link.

1. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are idiots.
2. Your point?
3. It's that we don't care. And I take offense to your Americans can't read comment when a bunch of the people bouncing off the walls and going "OMG he just insulted my band" are people from outside the US.
4. True, chords aren't covered.
5. Can a bass line be considered the melody considering it is overlaid with guitars that don't match Stay Away and a vocal line light years from being similar?
6. Calling people stupid for defending their band on the bands website displays a large lack of smarts on your part. Did you think people would just fall in line and start chanting "ZOMG DOWN WITH DEX! zOMG DOWN WITH DEX!"?

Blastero
08-07-2008, 10:53 PM
This topic is very full of fail from both sides.

First off, no, changing the key doesn't make a riff different. Hell, there's no garuntee that the minimum 10% change in the riff will necessarily make it all that different. But the point still stands. If you put someone else's song into Audacity and lower the pitch and then try to sell it as your new single without asking, you deserve to have your ass sued. The key isn't an integral part of the riff. Bands change the keys of their songs for live performances all the time. Hell, for all you know, the riff wasn't even in the same key when it was written. No sane judge would say that changing the key of a song qualifies as an indepednet and unique creative act.

I've listened to both Stay Away and Hammerhead. It's pretty much no contest that aside from the key change, which is very minor by the way, the basslines from both songs are 99.999% the same. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I find it very hard to believe that anyone seriously doesn't see the similarities between these two riffs.

This is completely indepedent of my opinion of the bands. It's pretty much indisputable that if they wanted to, whoever owns the rights to Nirvana's catalogue at this point could sue the Offspring. It doesn't matter if they really meant to rip the riff off or not. All the courts can see is that there are two songs that were written over 10 years apart from each other with almost identical riffs. That in and of itself is plently of grounds for a lawsuit.

What do I think? I don't think it's that big of a fucking deal. It kinda messed up the song for me after I heard Stay Away, but so what. It's just the bridge of the song. On one hand you could say that it's impossible for the Offspring to not have noticed the similarities between the riffs, but on the other hand, as someone who knows how easy it is to accidentally write someone else's riff, it could be a coincidence. For things as minor as this, I generally try to brush them off.

Ryder1234
08-07-2008, 11:33 PM
You're all either extremely stubborn or extremely stupid and can;t read properly (in other words Americans).

Yo buddy... Canadian

Moose
08-07-2008, 11:42 PM
Did he really just make a negative comment about Americans?...Someone should really explain to Mort the history of Australia.


I've noticed people taking shots at Americans and America on this board during discussions...

...Seriously...Do you honestly wanna go there?...

...You know we would just bomb your asses to hell.

Little_Miss_1565
08-07-2008, 11:46 PM
Why oh why do they hate our freedom so much?

KHWHD
08-07-2008, 11:53 PM
Yo buddy... Canadian

And DAMN proud of it too!! :D ;)

Ryder1234
08-07-2008, 11:55 PM
represent... :D

Moose
08-08-2008, 12:04 AM
Why oh why do they hate our freedom so much?


cry with me little miss...cry with me.

gijserman
08-08-2008, 01:40 AM
Did he really just make a negative comment about Americans?...Someone should really explain to Mort the history of Australia.


I've noticed people taking shots at Americans and America on this board during discussions...

...Seriously...Do you honestly wanna go there?...

...You know we would just bomb your asses to hell.

Lame......

randman21
08-08-2008, 03:35 AM
Question: Why has no one mentioned that m0rt is wrong about this? They are not 100% the same. Fact.

Before I go into it, let me just say that the same song in two different keys is the same song. I don't understand where people are getting this. "The Kids Aren't Alright" is a pretty unique song, right? If I wrote a song , a half-step lower, with that exact same awesome riff, chord progression, and solo--but different melody and lyrics--that would be a pretty big damn rip-off. The main reason people transpose songs is to make it easier to play/sing. Offspring even does it live.

Now, for my comparison, I'm going to transpose "Hammerhead" up one half-step, so they will be in the same key.

The progression of "Stay Away" goes D B F C A C D-flat D
"Hammerhead's" progression goes D C F C A C D-flat D

(EDIT 1: Forgive me, if that should be C-sharp. We all can't be music students.)

Take a good look at that, folks, 'cause there's your 10%.

(EDIT 2: So sorry if I brought back a dead argument. I totally neglected to notice past post 40.:o)

Keep 'em Seperated
08-08-2008, 04:05 AM
I would like to start off first by saying you are all idiots (except the 1 person who agrees).

You're all goin "This song SOUNDS like it too!!! That song SOUNDS like it as well!!!".

You're all either extremely stubborn or extremely stupid and can;t read properly (in other words Americans).

You can use the same chords as another artist or the same progression CHORDS ARE NOT COVERED BY COPYRIGHT!!!!

Melody is only covered by copy right. OFFSPRING TOOK THE EXAC T SAME MELODY!!! THIS IS ILLEGAL!!!! If they had taen the chords and changed the melody, fine wuldn;t give a rats toss bag! BUT THEY DIDN'T. THEY TOOK IT BAR FOR BAR, CROTCHET FOR CROTCHET (and because ur probably Americans a crotchet is also known as a quater note). If anyone else says "But this song has the same chords" i'm not even gonna clock your youtube link.

So just to clear this up

Copying chords = ok

Copying melody = bad

simple enough for you?

I disagree with you buddy, and I'm from New Zealand, which as an Australian, you should know is quite far away from America.

I'd also like to point out that as a New Zealander I find your condemnation of the Offspring highly hypocritical. By your logic we should sue Australia (pretty sure you said that was your home country) for stealing NZ national icons such as the Pavalova, Phar Lap, most of our godamn banks, and lots more. Why don't we? Because then we'd have to argue with the likes of you, and it doesn't really matter. Phar Lap (a racehorse) was born in NZ and achieved success in Australia, won the hearts of both countries before going to America and kicking ass. The pavalova was invented by an NZer then an Aussie came up with it a few years later, both countries claim it as their national desert, and it pretty much is. There would just be no point suing, and whilst it would be fun to sling insults at each other, no one would care either.

But please, claim Russel Crowe all you want. We don't want him.

Drums beating in my Heart
08-08-2008, 04:10 AM
Now, for my comparison, I'm going to transpose "Hammerhead" up one half-step, so they will be in the same key.

The progression of "Stay Away" goes D B F C A C D-flat D
"Hammerhead's" progression goes D C F C A C D-flat D

(EDIT 1: Forgive me, if that should be C-sharp. We all can't be music students.)

Take a good look at that, folks, 'cause there's your 10%.


I love you :D
:p

SplinterByMyOwnDesign
08-08-2008, 04:13 AM
thats bullshit... if everyone sued for use of the same riff, progression and rhthym, then there'd be no songs because there is only so much you can do with three chords

EDIT: a different key would make fit the 10% parameters

I am a musician, and all I have to say is. THANK YOU!! Somebody else who fucking knows.

I wrote a song and thought it was awesome, until 3 weeks later I updated my Incubus playlist and realise my riff was almost Identical to their song Circles. So there's your example, fuck face.

Good post lost_nvmfound. I agree with you.

randman21
08-08-2008, 04:19 AM
I love you :D
:p
Feeling's mutual <3

Fdsajoe
08-08-2008, 05:00 AM
This riff is not 100% the same, I decided to tab them both out so you can see the differences

http://i38.tinypic.com/687rsg.jpg

and here it is transposed so they both start on D.

http://i34.tinypic.com/s63980.jpg

That's the way I hear it.

Rooster
08-08-2008, 05:08 AM
This riff is not 100% the same, I decided to tab them both out so you can see the differences

http://i38.tinypic.com/687rsg.jpg

and here it is transposed so they both start on D.

http://i34.tinypic.com/s63980.jpg

That's the way I hear it.

New evidences for pwning the thread starter are coming to the surface...


I love you.

I feel the same way :D

KyleW
10-19-2008, 02:15 PM
I read to page 6 and got bored so dont hate me if this has already been said but....

What about parodies of songs? Surely there are many parodies of songs that will have to use the same riffs in order to make the songs sound the same and then they just change the lyrics. Not every parody ever will have had permission by the artist, hell I'm not sure if half of them have permission but we don't see bands being sued here, there and everywhere for one simple reason...

No one actually gives a crap.

Free?
10-19-2008, 02:23 PM
Who feeds a troll when troll is gone months ago?

Stylie
10-19-2008, 02:30 PM
I feel the same way :D

Hahahah, funny memories. :p

Grimesy da Offspringfan
10-19-2008, 02:30 PM
Stay Away is too tight, Hammerhead isn't

mat.kc.
10-19-2008, 02:52 PM
Haha, the topic creator thinks he's so smart. :rolleyes:

Splinter[PI]
10-19-2008, 02:54 PM
Was it really necessary to bring this topic back?

Rooster
10-19-2008, 03:10 PM
Hahahah, funny memories. :p

Yeah, the good old times when i was 2 months younger than now... Now a wave of nostalgia hit me *wipes tears from his eyes with his hand*... Anyone have a tissue?




NOW LET THIS THREAD DIE, GODDAMMIT!!!
:D

lost_nvrfound
10-19-2008, 04:39 PM
You do realize that by responding with "wtf? why revive this?" type comments, you are only perpetuating its misery on the first page, right?

just a thought...

and i wouldn't necessarily call him a troll. Just a really big nirvana fan...

hehe... i did enjoy this thread to be honest.

Thomas
10-19-2008, 05:48 PM
This riff is not 100% the same, I decided to tab them both out so you can see the differences

http://i38.tinypic.com/687rsg.jpg

and here it is transposed so they both start on D.

http://i34.tinypic.com/s63980.jpg

That's the way I hear it.

This thread was definitely an unnecessary bump, but this post is awesome in so many ways.

ad8
10-20-2008, 10:21 AM
Who feeds a troll when troll is gone months ago?

Exactly. I don't understand this bump.

Motacam86
11-14-2008, 12:43 AM
Sorry bud, go look at the actual music for both songs and you'll see they differ in both chord progression and rhythm. I suppose you also think that the Red Hot Chili Peppers ripped off Tom Petty and that John Fogerty ripped off himself...