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Jesus
08-31-2008, 03:41 AM
Kosovo and Georgia are two separate instances with two separate set of circumstances which are different and validate the situations.



This is why: Two separate instances. Montenegro gained independence through a referendum and vote. The entire ordeal was observed by 5 different groups and gained approval by Serbia as well as voting in Serbian districts.

Ossetia's voting was only in Ossetia and did not gain approval from Georgia. While 99% of Ossetians voted for independence, it was not recognized as a legitimate referendum because of the lack of ethnic Georgians.

There is a way to go about getting independence and it wasn't met. Do they deserve their own country? Sure. But do it the right way instead of just breaking away.

Russians sent peacekeepers who are supposed to stay neutral. How are they perceived to be neutral when Russia is very much on the Ossetians side?

Sorry dude. As much as I like you, reading this is so akward. Not knowing the difference between Kosovo and Montenegro is on par with mixing up Palestine and Israel or Iran and Iraq or Sunnis and Shias... I honestly don't know how to react ...


I'm laughing at Russia and their failed attempt to get other Asian nations to support them. That and the severing of relations with Georgia. This might get interesting the next couple weeks, especially with a US destroyer sitting off the coast.

Well that isn't surprising is it? Given that a bunch of them didn't support the independence of Kosovo either and denounced Nato's intervention. They are just being consistent. Unlike most in the West and Russia. Most of the Asian countries have own seperatist minorities too which they would like to keep opressing without fear of intervention.

Jesus
08-31-2008, 03:48 AM
Hehe, Jesus, I noticed that we often agree with each other. <3

Well that happens when you are being consistent ;). We might disagree though, I'm sort of in favor of the independence of Kosovo, Abkhazia, S Ossetia etc. under certain conditions (don't have time to list them). Don't know if you are. If you are opposed to all of'm, that's still better in my book than just being a damn hypocrite about it. And supporting one and not the other.

IamSam
08-31-2008, 10:10 AM
Sorry dude. As much as I like you, reading this is so akward. Not knowing the difference between Kosovo and Montenegro is on par with mixing up Palestine and Israel or Iran and Iraq or Sunnis and Shias... I honestly don't know how to react ...



Don't worry about a reaction. It's a 'my bad.' I was busy and forgot that I wrote on Montenegro and not Kosovo. I'll get back to you later because I know the difference, I'm just under a lot of stress and wasn't quite thinking!

metalmania
09-03-2008, 02:50 PM
georgea did trust usa and europe and invaded to south osetha but georgea's friends left alone against russia and dont forget georgea government wants to be member to NATO.russia government doesnt want it and usa government says to georgea that" hey dude ,dont worry im gonna help you,i will take ya to NATO cause i need black sea";) but russia is not a little country and they show their hate.its a dangerous game in black sea.weapon incs. re happy now ;)

Commie
09-10-2008, 06:48 PM
Hey guys, I'm back to this thread with my pretty bad English which I thought was good... before I've started posting replies.

There is a funny thing about all this stuff... actually quite a few funny things.

The first one is there lots of people not listening to each other... really. You're blaming Russia of coming back to Stalinism and all that shit, you're saying that Russian people are brainwashed, and the media here is controlled by government... well... hmmm... I' m not fond of conspiracy theories but I believe that every nation is brainwashed, because public opinion is very important today as the world has become much smaller, even tribes in Africa are brainwashed by their chiefs from time to time - that's quite logic and I think that would always be this way - 'cause every country has its own interests and it must protect them. Unfortunately "freedom" and "democracy" have become just words with no meaning. Guys, US had their interest in Iraq, Afghanistan and Serbia ... US attacked this countries because it had its interests there - Russia too has its own interests in Georgia, and moreover - I, as a Russian citizen, have my own interest in Georgia, I want Georgia being a part of Russia, (and honestly - my most sacred dream is the world being all pro-Russian - that would be nice, dudes:) And in my dreams I would be somewhere close to the main ruler if not the ruler myself:)) But it doesn't matter anyway - the thing you guys are trying to do here - is to blame Russia of having its interest in Georgia, you say that Russia doesn't care about Ossetians and only invades Georgia because it has its interest there... but the thing you don't see and don't want to see (hear, read etc.) is that there is something beyond all that stuff - politics is quite a complicated thing - but Russia really played a small part of savior in this conflict - I say that not because I am patriotic, I am patriotic, and though I believe that nobody is ever right in politics - I also think that my country is always a bit righter than all the others, just because of one reason - it is my country, and you guys HAVE the right to think the same about your countries. Was that enough of patriotism?

So, now let us put all our patriotism apart and think it all a different way? - this conflict, when it started was not initiated by Russian country, it COULD NOT has been initiated by Russia chronologically, and when it all started this conflict should be solved immediately... it was an urgent kind of thing, do you understand that? UN had its meeting right after Georgian attack of Tzhinvali, this meeting was initiated by the Russian government by the way... and can you guess what was the solution suggested? - it was none... NONE... that's something like a patient in hospital dying and the doctors saying - "well, we can't decide what to do, so let us do nothing, wait until he dies and then we could think it all thoroughly and make the decision that SHOULD HAVE BEEN MADE". If UN had made the solution and UN troops entered Georgia - Russia wouldn't do a thing... but UN did do nothing, so no matter what, I BELIEVE RUSSIA saved lots of lives... and I also realized that UN is such a big peace of shit, just a fucking organization that doesn't do the things that it is supposed to do (yeah, I had a bit of naive thoughts)

And, please don't say that American democracy is the best one, our democracy is better than yours:)

No, really, though it is not ideal... perhaps Russian democracy is not even democracy, but yet it is far more democratic than the US one.

And Georgia... well, Georgian democracy is a unicorn, if anyone here ever saw a unicorn than I would have at least one reason to believe that Georgian government is democratical:)))

There are some words here about US ships in the region - my opinion is that there won't be another World War:))) but yet it was funny to read about US troops kicking Russian asses ...well, here you have one big failure... US troops will never kick Russian asses, even if they will have lasers and Jedies with lightsabers (though jedies are quite strong men, you know), can you guess why? - because Russia is the country I live in:)))

P.S. I hope I was able to say all the stuff I wanted, and I hope there are people smart enough to understand and support my point of view or to understand and oppose it:)

Hypno Toad
09-10-2008, 06:56 PM
We need a thread:

"Russia vs US, who would win?"

:P


The reason people think so badly of the Russian government and media is because the government/miltary does a good job of making a poor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya) image (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko) for (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRQgD_OIE08) itself (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis) on (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin) every (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny) possible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis) occasion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXjdF4K3h2w)

Commie
09-10-2008, 11:34 PM
I don't need one:))

IamSam
09-11-2008, 08:50 PM
The reason people think so badly of the Russian government and media is because the government/miltary does a good job of making a poor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya) image (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko) for (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRQgD_OIE08) itself (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis) on (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin) every (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny) possible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis) occasion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXjdF4K3h2w)

I think I love you.

Commie
09-12-2008, 09:41 AM
Hey guys, fuck you with Beslan, Groznyy, Nord Ost and all that stuff... you won't be glad if I start to speak about 9-11 like that:(

The point is that you don't even know about the things you talk about и ваще пошли вы в жопу, люблю, целую:)

Commie
09-12-2008, 09:49 AM
Moreover your image of Russia is all wrong, 'cause you think wrong and your media wants you to think wrong about Russia...

And why are the guys who speak so zealously about Thzhinvally being a part of Georgia tell me about Groznyy and Chechnya? Chechnya is a part of Russia and it has no reasons for separation, (Osetia and Abkhazia have legal reasons by the way) it is Russian territory and there were real terrorists there... don't speak a word about it, ok?

metalmania
09-12-2008, 10:26 AM
aha!big countries re playin' same games again!you know that america is in the blacksea now for georgia( or their minerals ;) ) anyway but now russia,venesuela,bolivia will meet in military aplication in latin america.you kno again that latin america says "hey usa is our enemy,they have to go here" so usa is in black sea - russia in latin america.its just a retaliation from russia against usa.but we have to ask this question them "hey usa!what re you doin! in blacksea?hey russia!what re you doin' in latin america?" ;)

IamSam
09-12-2008, 03:42 PM
The US and Russia weren't enemies. We still aren't. We just don't like what you're doing to Georgia...an ally.

metalmania
09-12-2008, 04:39 PM
hm but i think that they were enemies beetween 1945-1990 years (after 2.world war) and they separated our world.ussr was representative of socialism and usa was (and still) representative of capitalism.and world saw the "cold war" beetween them.they were in a big military war.ussr took the east europe and usa took other places.it was a big war(cold war) but ussr lost cause they did invade afghanistan and afghanistan won with help of usa(cia helped them with 500 million dollars) and ussr left there on 1984,ussr's economy couldnt save itself and gorbacov said that "yeah we re leaving the socialism" and end of ussr:1989! so russia was born in this time!they 'd agree the capitalism,i guess;they found right way:p anyway it was summary.i hope ,our world doesnt see dirty games again ;)

Hombre
09-12-2008, 07:23 PM
We just don't like what you're doing to Georgia...an ally.
I don't like what Georgia doing to Ossetia and to peacemakers.

metalmania
09-13-2008, 03:20 AM
hehe like to ask this:"hey what re you doin' in georgia,iraq,afghanistan,kosovo maybe iran( in wietnam many years ago ;) ) do you know ;they killed 1 million people there but they cant get .yesterday 14 american soldiers commit suicide.do you know it?anyway its not our subject now.today amrican weaponships left to blacksea.cause montroe pact say " foreign countries stay in black sea 20 days" and this time out so these ships left blacksea and they 'd go to igian sea and they did return from marmara sea to blacksea ;) its a very very comic and foolish game but i think this world is so stupid,world just looks like a dumb.i say " go home "

jacknife737
09-13-2008, 11:17 AM
This thread is not about US foreign policy in places such as Afghanistan, ect. If you feel that strongly about Russiaís actions in Georgia, you should be able to defend it on its own merits, without attacking others.

Rooster
09-13-2008, 11:31 AM
This thread is not about US foreign policy in places such as Afghanistan, ect. If you feel that strongly about Russiaís actions in Georgia, you should be able to defend it on its own merits, without attacking others.

Quoted for truth.

Looks like the BBS Cold War has started here.

sKratch
09-14-2008, 10:43 AM
Apparently the Georgian government had been planning the invasion:
http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSLD12378020080914

jacknife737
09-14-2008, 10:50 AM
Apparently the Georgian government had been planning the invasion:
http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSLD12378020080914

My Canadian foreign policy proff really gave Saakashvili a verbal thrashing the other day, mostly due to the fact that he failed to either inform the US of his actions, or didnít receive their blessing, thus leaving them in an awkward position. Still, I donít think that this somehow cancels out Russiaís extreme response to the matter, but it does put things in a different perspective. Russia had been waiting to get back at Georgia/US for encroachment into Eastern Europe for a while, this just provided the opportunity.

Rooster
09-14-2008, 10:55 AM
My Canadian foreign policy proff really gave Saakashvili a verbal thrashing the other day, mostly due to the fact that he failed to either inform the US of his actions, or didnít receive their blessing, thus leaving them in an awkward position. Still, I donít think that this somehow cancels out Russiaís extreme response to the matter, but it does put things in a different perspective. Russia had been waiting to get back at Georgia/US for encroachment into Eastern Europe for a while, this just provided the opportunity.

Good point, that's exactly what i was thinking. Saakashvili attacked Ossetia first, and Russia just seized the opportunity for making some personal gain, and Ossetians were just pushed on the side track.

*waits for the forum war between US and Russia to resume*

jacknife737
09-22-2008, 02:46 PM
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/jacknife737/1218770295032.png 10 characters

metalmania
09-23-2008, 11:14 AM
russian ships re going to kuba,venezuela for a military training exercise!they will be in a jointly military training exercise.hm they make us curious :p usa is in blacksea and russia in atlantic ocean.i hate this political games with weapons.wait and see or wait and bleed like spliknot ;)

Hombre
09-25-2008, 02:33 AM
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/jacknife737/1218770295032.png 10 characters

Putin Forever!:D
metalmania,I prefer to Wait and Bleed!:cool:

metalmania
09-25-2008, 08:30 AM
i dont care about putin or bush but everybody knows ,bush is amenable from these wars.he is like a butcher so his government is paying the price with this crisis and putin seems to manages his country like a king,medvedev or putin,no matter! their views re same! but i have to say it:putin's policies make develop to russia.they have debt aconomy for IMF,and they have minerals.its so good.and europe is dependent to russia about natural gas ;) anyway i think,putin's government is not ok but they re just answering to usa ;)
so no bush no putin no war no chAos!
but u have to listen "the chAos A.D song "by SEPULTURA :D

brothadave79
09-25-2008, 09:24 PM
My Canadian foreign policy proff really gave Saakashvili a verbal thrashing the other day, mostly due to the fact that he failed to either inform the US of his actions, or didn’t receive their blessing, thus leaving them in an awkward position. Still, I don’t think that this somehow cancels out Russia’s extreme response to the matter, but it does put things in a different perspective. Russia had been waiting to get back at Georgia/US for encroachment into Eastern Europe for a while, this just provided the opportunity.

Your professor was correct. The United States knew of Saakashvili's intentions, since he had been claiming that he would take back Ossetia since he first became president. But American leaders knew about the attack's imminence and warned Georgia not to carry it out:



OSLO, Aug 21 (Reuters) - The United States warned
Georgia against trying to retake rebel South
Ossetia by force, including on the very eve of
the Aug. 7 attack that drew a crushing response
from Russia, the U.S. envoy to NATO said on Thursday.

Ambassador Kurt Volker said Russia was looking
for an excuse to flex its military might and send
troops into Georgia, as it duly did when Georgian
soldiers ventured into pro-Russian South Ossetia.

Asked if Washington was notified of Georgia's
intention to strike its rebel province, Volker
said: "The United States has consistently
counselled Georgia, over a long period of time,
that there is no military solution (in South Ossetia).

So the US knew it was going to happen, told Georgia not to do it, but Saakashvili persisted. The Russians retaliated, pushing the Georgian invaders out of S. Ossetia and probably should have stopped there. But the Russians are not very good at managing their PR and managed to turn themselves from victims to aggressors as they pushed onto Georgian soil. The American ambassador to Moscow, John Beryle, acknowledged the legitimacy of Russia's initial response, but he lamented the counter-invasion (Reuters; August 22, 2008)

Beryle also knew of Georgia's aggressive posturing and asked them repeatedly not to invade until the "last possible moment" and expressed his condolences on behalf of the American people and "as a human being."

It's my opinion that this is Russia's response to the continual encroachment of NATO onto former Soviet Territory and the encirclement of the Russian state. The United States continues to play its Cold War games - NATO, after all, was founded to stop the spread of Soviet influence in Europe - and Russia is well aware of this. President GHW Bush promised the Russian state NATO would not set foot in the former Eastern bloc. That promise was broken. President Clinton then said that NATO would not admit any former Soviet republics. Broken again. Russia's heavy-handed response to Georgia is, in my opinion, a signal to NATO to 'back off.' Had Georgia been a NATO member, the United States and the other allies would have been drawn into the conflict. It's something for the United States to feflect upon, and I think Russia will be successful in preventing NATO from admitting Georgia. Its aggression in the face of American warnings, no matter what official rhetoric condemning so-called Russian extremism comes from Washington, cannot be permitted.

Hombre
09-30-2008, 08:27 PM
Your professor was correct. The United States knew of Saakashvili's intentions, since he had been claiming that he would take back Ossetia since he first became president. But American leaders knew about the attack's imminence and warned Georgia not to carry it out:




So the US knew it was going to happen, told Georgia not to do it, but Saakashvili persisted. The Russians retaliated, pushing the Georgian invaders out of S. Ossetia and probably should have stopped there. But the Russians are not very good at managing their PR and managed to turn themselves from victims to aggressors as they pushed onto Georgian soil. The American ambassador to Moscow, John Beryle, acknowledged the legitimacy of Russia's initial response, but he lamented the counter-invasion (Reuters; August 22, 2008)

Beryle also knew of Georgia's aggressive posturing and asked them repeatedly not to invade until the "last possible moment" and expressed his condolences on behalf of the American people and "as a human being."

It's my opinion that this is Russia's response to the continual encroachment of NATO onto former Soviet Territory and the encirclement of the Russian state. The United States continues to play its Cold War games - NATO, after all, was founded to stop the spread of Soviet influence in Europe - and Russia is well aware of this. President GHW Bush promised the Russian state NATO would not set foot in the former Eastern bloc. That promise was broken. President Clinton then said that NATO would not admit any former Soviet republics. Broken again. Russia's heavy-handed response to Georgia is, in my opinion, a signal to NATO to 'back off.' Had Georgia been a NATO member, the United States and the other allies would have been drawn into the conflict. It's something for the United States to feflect upon, and I think Russia will be successful in preventing NATO from admitting Georgia. Its aggression in the face of American warnings, no matter what official rhetoric condemning so-called Russian extremism comes from Washington, cannot be permitted.
Wise words:cool:

gessor
10-18-2008, 12:08 PM
Russia don't invaded in georgia. I from russia and on our tv said, that georgia first invaded on South osetia. And all, what say your journalist's is false!

brothadave79
10-18-2008, 03:50 PM
Russia don't invaded in georgia. I from russia and on our tv said, that georgia first invaded on South osetia. And all, what say your journalist's is false!

Georgia invaded Ossetia. Russian forces pushed them out. Russian troops then proceeded to continue across the Georgian border and occupy territory. Once Russia moved outside of its own territory and transferred hostilities to Georgian soil, it became Russia's turn to be the invader. I don't know how many people would seriously dispute whether it was a (counter)invasion or not. The argument hinges more on whether Russia's response was justified.

Commie
10-18-2008, 07:49 PM
Could you please tell me how many of Russian soldiers are there on Georgian territory? Who is the president of Georgia?

Guys, don't you think that if Russia wanted to occupy Georgia, that it would have done it long ago? That we would have had Russian soldiers marching all over Tbilisi and the Georgian president would not be Saakashvilly? or you think that Russian troops are so shitty occupiers as they simply don't know how to occupy a country?

Rooster
10-19-2008, 06:57 AM
Russia don't invaded in georgia. I from russia and on our tv said, that georgia first invaded on South osetia. And all, what say your journalist's is false!

Yep, you're right, Russia didn't invade Georgia. If you are talking about Georgia on United Stated soil.

On the other hand, is this thread still alive?

brothadave79
10-19-2008, 08:58 AM
Could you please tell me how many of Russian soldiers are there on Georgian territory? Who is the president of Georgia?

Guys, don't you think that if Russia wanted to occupy Georgia, that it would have done it long ago? That we would have had Russian soldiers marching all over Tbilisi and the Georgian president would not be Saakashvilly? or you think that Russian troops are so shitty occupiers as they simply don't know how to occupy a country?

Not even close to what I was saying. I never once said whether Russia was a good guy or a bad guy in this. I only argue that Russia had vested interests in its response to invade Georgia, but that it never would have happened if Georgia didn't incite it.

Also, judging on over 50 years of history, the Russian army is VERY good at occupying other countries.

metalmania
11-04-2008, 02:20 PM
crisis ate this war :D

valeron
11-05-2008, 09:28 AM
http://www.vz.ru/society/2008/11/5/226093.html Here is the movie about this war(in the middle of the page, click picture with eagle). Watch and stop saying Russia invades Georgia.

IamSam
11-05-2008, 09:49 AM
http://www.vz.ru/society/2008/11/5/226093.html Here is the movie about this war(in the middle of the page, click picture with eagle). Watch and stop saying Russia invades Georgia.

Sure. If Russians stop linking everything to Russian websites.

wheelchairman
11-07-2008, 02:14 AM
It looks as though it was a war started as Georgian aggression.

I can't seem to find the back-up, but I heard in a BBC radio documentary that the IISS (International Institute for Strategic Studies) or the ISS (Institute for Strategic Studies) has made the claim that the evidence points more towards Georgian aggression, and not Georgian acts of self-defence. (as I said I can't seem to confirm the BBC documentary cause I can't remember which organization it was, or whatever, annoying. And Google searches didn't help)

The NY Times also has recieved in formation from OSCE witnesses in the area when the conflict started.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/world/europe/07georgia.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&src=igw&oref=slogin

The OSCE I believe stands for Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and are pretty much active all over Eastern European conflicts.

Now neither reports said they had enough evidence as of now to make any conclusive claims. This is just the direction they are leaning in, so to speak.

EDIT: On further research I can confirm it was the IISS. Not that I can find a link for that specific claim.

lexs
11-09-2008, 01:13 PM
It looks as though it was a war started as Georgian aggression.

I can't seem to find the back-up, but I heard in a BBC radio documentary that the IISS (International Institute for Strategic Studies) or the ISS (Institute for Strategic Studies) has made the claim that the evidence points more towards Georgian aggression, and not Georgian acts of self-defence.

Well

The BBC has discovered evidence that Georgia may have committed war crimes in its attack on its breakaway region of South Ossetia in August

Here is BBC link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7692751.stm

Britain source, no cyrillics at all.

toti
11-09-2008, 07:14 PM
Stop right there. The United States after the Cold War has attempted to play nice with Russia. We've even helped to include them in NATO. It's Russia, or Putin for that matter, that is trying his hardest to alienate his country from the world once again.

THE UNITED STATES MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is the largest threat to U.S Citizens .
Your President is a mere Cut-out puppet for the International bankers that have corrupted the U.S government.

Go to Infowars(dot)com. Question everything!

Hypno Toad
11-13-2008, 10:24 PM
THE UNITED STATES MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is the largest threat to U.S Citizens .
Your President is a mere Cut-out puppet for the International bankers that have corrupted the U.S government.

Go to Infowars(dot)com. Question everything!

I will just leave my argument as this, I don't think Russia or the US are good nations, but I would much rather have the US as the world superpower. As far as superpowers go, they have been the best, and nicest.