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IamSam
08-08-2008, 09:50 PM
South Ossetia fighting risks wider war

By MUSA SADULAYEV, Associated Press Writer 59 minutes ago

Russia sent an armored column into the breakaway enclave of South Ossetia after Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, launched an offensive to crush separatists. Georgia reported early Saturday that warplanes attacked three of its bases and some key oil facilities.

Witnesses said hundreds of civilians have died in the fighting, which threatened to ignite a wider war between Georgia and Russia and escalate tensions between Moscow and Washington.

Georgia said it was forced to launch the assault because of rebel attacks; the separatists alleged Georgia violated a cease-fire.

The South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali was reportedly devastated. Ossetia spokeswoman Irina Gagloyeva said the city came under prolonged fire during the night "but it was suppressed" by the armed forces, the Interfax news agency quoted her as saying Saturday.

"I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars," said Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia. "It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."

The fighting broke out as much of the world's attention was focused on the start of the Olympic Games and many leaders, including Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President Bush, were in Beijing.

The timing suggested Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili may have been counting on surprise to fulfill his longtime pledge to wrest back control of South Ossetia — a key to his hold on power. The rebels seek to unite with North Ossetia, which is part of Russia.

Saakashvili agreed the timing was not coincidental, but accused Russia of being the aggressor. "Most decision makers have gone for the holidays," he told CNN. "Brilliant moment to attack a small country."

Seeking to prevent an all-out war, diplomats issued a flurry of statements calling on both sides to halt the fighting. The U.N. Security Council held two tense emergency sessions 12 hours apart with both sides using the forum to launch accusations. As the meeting recessed, officials promised a third council session Saturday.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urged Russia to halt aircraft and missile attacks and withdraw combat forces from Georgian territory. Rice said in a statement the United States wants Russia to respect Georgian sovereignty and agree to international mediation.

The leader of South Ossetia's rebel government, Eduard Kokoity, said about 1,400 people were killed in the onslaught, the Interfax news agency reported. The toll could not be independently confirmed.

As night fell, there were conflicting claims as to who held the battlefield advantage.

Saakashvili said "Georgian military forces completely control all the territory of South Ossetia" except for a northern section adjacent to Russia. But Russian news agencies cited a Russian military official as saying heavy fighting was under way on the outskirts of the regional capital.

Early Saturday, Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said the Vaziani military base on the outskirts of the Georgian capital was bombed by warplanes during the night and that bombs fell in the area of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline. He also said two other Georgian military bases were hit and that warplanes bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.

Utiashvili said there apparently were significant casualties and damage in the attacks, but that further details would not be known until the morning.

Earlier, Georgia's Foreign Ministry accused Russian aircraft of bombing two military air bases, inflicting some casualties and destroying several military aircraft. Rustavi 2 television said four people were killed and five wounded at the Marneuli air base.

Twelve Russian troops were killed and 30 wounded in the fighting, said Russian Ground Forces spokesman Col. Igor Konashenkov. Saakashvili said late Friday that about 30 Georgians had been killed "mainly members of the Georgian armed forces."

It was unclear what might persuade either side to stop shooting. Both claim the battle started after the other side violated a cease-fire that had been declared just hours earlier after a week of sporadic clashes.

The United States was sending in its top Caucasus envoy, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matthew Bryza, to try to end the bloodshed.

It was the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de facto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992. Russian troops went in as peacekeepers but Georgia alleges they now back the separatists.

Russia, which has granted citizenship to most of the region's residents, appeared to lay much of the responsibility for ending the fighting on Washington.

In a telephone conversation with Rice, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Georgia must be convinced to withdraw its forces, according to a ministry statement.

Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. Georgia has angered Russia by seeking NATO membership — a bid Moscow regards as part of a Western effort to weaken its influence in the region.

Saakashvili long has pledged to restore Tbilisi's rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and have built up ties with Moscow.

Georgia has about 2,000 troops in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor to coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain. But Saakashvili told CNN the troops would be called home Saturday in the face of the South Ossetia fighting.

A senior U.S. defense official said Georgian authorities have asked the United States for help getting their troops out of Iraq. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the discussions have been private, said no formal decision has been made on whether to support the departure, but said it is likely the U.S. will do so.

Also, Pentagon officials said Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has reached out to his counterparts in Russia and Georgia, but has not yet connected with them.

Russia's Defense Ministry said it was sending in reinforcements for its troops in the province, and Russian state television and Georgian officials reported a convoy of tanks had crossed the border. The convoy was expected to reach the provincial capital, Tskhinvali, by evening, Channel One television said.

Putin warned in the early stages of the conflict that the Georgian attack would draw retaliation and the Defense Ministry pledged to protect South Ossetians, most of whom have Russian citizenship.

Chairing a session of his Security Council in the Kremlin, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev also vowed that Moscow will protect Russian citizens.

"In accordance with the constitution and federal law, I, as president of Russia, am obliged to protect lives and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are located," Medvedev said. "We won't allow the death of our compatriots go unpunished."

On Friday, an AP reporter saw tanks and other heavy weapons concentrating on the Russian side of the border with South Ossetia — supporting the reports of an incursion. Some villagers were fleeing into Russia.

The Georgian state minister for reintegration, Temur Yakobashvili, said Georgian forces had shot down four Russian combat planes over Georgian territory but gave no details. Russia's Defense Ministry denied an earlier Georgia report about one Russian plane downed and had no immediate comment on the latest claim.

Yakobashvili said one Russian plane had dropped a bomb on the Vaziani military base near the Georgian capital, but no one was hurt. More than 1,000 U.S. Marines and soldiers were at the base last month to teach combat skills to Georgian troops.

South Ossetia officials said Georgia attacked with aircraft, armor and heavy artillery. Georgian troops fired missiles at Tskhinvali, an official said, and many buildings were on fire.

Georgia's president said Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities.

A senior Russian diplomat in charge of the South Ossetian conflict, Yuri Popov, dismissed the Georgian claims of Russian bombings as misinformation, the RIA-Novosti news agency reported.

The Georgian attack came just hours after Saakashvili announced a unilateral cease-fire in a television broadcast late Thursday in which he also urged South Ossetian separatist leaders to enter talks on resolving the conflict.

Georgian officials later blamed South Ossetian separatists for thwarting the cease-fire by shelling Georgian villages in the area.


And for you people who have no sense of geography:

http://www.georgians.ge/georgia_map.gif

For further reading on Ossetia, click here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia)

What is everyones thoughts on this?

adombomb222
08-08-2008, 09:53 PM
One of my family members lives in Georgia. We haven't heard from her yet.

Little_Miss_1565
08-08-2008, 10:36 PM
Wow, how totally fucked. Way to go, Pootie!

Mota Boy
08-08-2008, 10:52 PM
The situation is pretty fucked up, and the history of the interaction is practically farcial. I'm just hanging back and checking out the show, which appears to be running third in the day's media coverage to Edward's admission of an affair everyone knew about nine months ago and the Olympics.

My thought is that Russia will invade all of Georgia with the goal of setting up a puppet regime. Will be interesting watching.

Oh, P.S. (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080808091149AA3VGTk)

adombomb222
08-08-2008, 10:57 PM
90% of South Ossetia is a Russian citizen via Russian passports. That’s the Russians excuse to send tanks?

adombomb222
08-08-2008, 11:07 PM
Meetings in the UN are taking place. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html#cnnSTCVideo) The second meeting in 16 hours.

Little_Miss_1565
08-09-2008, 12:01 AM
The situation is pretty fucked up, and the history of the interaction is practically farcial. I'm just hanging back and checking out the show, which appears to be running third in the day's media coverage to Edward's admission of an affair everyone knew about nine months ago and the Olympics.

Probably because most everyone watching CNN thinks that the only Georgia with separatists is on our own soil.

Jakebert
08-09-2008, 12:14 AM
I guess you could say that they're going to Geoooorgaaaaa-aaa-haaa.'

God, I hope someone gets that.

the Alternate
08-09-2008, 06:17 AM
In such a conflict you can't trust any side cause both are usually lying. But some points can be cleared.

At first, about why most of Ossetian people are Russian citizens via passports. That wasn't a purposed action by the government but it is consequences of the law of Russian Federation that was accepted in early 90s and which tells that "everyone who has a Soviet passport to be able to exchange it to Russian passport at his own will". In early 90s Ossetians and Abkhazians rejected to get Georgian passports and remained with Soviet. According to Russian legislation, everyone who had Soviet citizenship can get Russian at will.

About Georgian Democracy. Have you seen it? The specific of this country makes it clear to make suggestion that it can be either anarchy or dictate. Anarchy leads to unstoppable wars, as it was before Georgia became a part of Russian Empire and then Soviet Union. Another thing is that Georgian president seeks allies as United States because he understands that US will use anything to hurt Russia and this is his opportunity to get financing and pressure on Russia to reach his own purposes and purposes of his clan inside Georgia. No one thinks about the Georgian people (is that democracy&). Neither Saakashvili, nor US government.

IamSam
08-09-2008, 08:37 AM
Another thing is that Georgian president seeks allies as United States because he understands that US will use anything to hurt Russia

Stop right there. The United States after the Cold War has attempted to play nice with Russia. We've even helped to include them in NATO. It's Russia, or Putin for that matter, that is trying his hardest to alienate his country from the world once again.

ad8
08-09-2008, 08:40 AM
I am not sure if I understood the article because what I read was that Russia started the war. In german news it was said that Georgia invaded Ossetia. Maybe U.S. news present it in a different way than european news.

IamSam
08-09-2008, 08:51 AM
I am not sure if I understood the article because what I read was that Russia started the war. In german news it was said that Georgia invaded Ossetia. Maybe U.S. news present it in a different way than european news.

Ossetia is a breakaway part of Georgia. It broke away during the 1990's and is not recognized by the UN.

Map of South Ossetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:South_ossetia_english.png)

As you can see here, Ossetia is in Georgia. Georgia invaded to take it back, Russia got all indignant and in there space because some Russian citizens live there. It would be like a small part of France rebelled, France invaded it to take it back and there were German citizens there, so Germany invaded France and bombed Paris.

WebDudette
08-09-2008, 10:11 AM
I wont lie, it was far more exciting when I thought Russia invaded the state in the U.S.

IamSam
08-09-2008, 10:20 AM
You probably mean Alsace. That's the bone of contention (or was rather) between Germany and France. (it's ours now, but Alsatians speak some kind of Deutsch and eat sauerkraut). The case is different, Alsace borders Germany... but historically... well. ANYWAY. It led to wars.

Putin is such a show-hog. I'm waiting for the atomic bomb though.

Addendum: I wonder if this could ultimately be solely for oil control...

Dear....God...Maria it was a hypothetical statement...I thank you for giving us that brilliant paragraph on one more reason why France hates someone else, but my writing was hypothetical.

It gets better: Russia isn't just bombing military targets.


"Russia completely devastated the port of Poti on the Black Sea, which is a key port for the transport of energy sources from the Caspian Sea and is close to the Baku-Supsa pipeline and the Supsa oil terminal," the Saturday statement said.

I really don't understand why Russia is messing around in this. I mean...you'd think they wouldn't want to go all US on someones ass...

F@ BANKZ
08-09-2008, 10:24 AM
Ossetia is a breakaway part of Georgia. It broke away during the 1990's and is not recognized by the UN.

Map of South Ossetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:South_ossetia_english.png)

As you can see here, Ossetia is in Georgia. Georgia invaded to take it back, Russia got all indignant and in there space because some Russian citizens live there. It would be like a small part of France rebelled, France invaded it to take it back and there were German citizens there, so Germany invaded France and bombed Paris.

This is my understanding too. I have heard in numerous places that the soul purpose of the initial invation was to win public support for the Georgian president. It looks as if now various insurgencies are rebelling in Georgia, hopeing to be supported by the Russian army, which can only be bad news in terms of stabalising the crisis.

Mota Boy
08-09-2008, 10:37 AM
...US will use anything to hurt RussiaThat's a bit overly self-important. I think that the US's goals (the spread of democracy and NATO, greater influence in the region) directly conflict with Russia's, but that's a consequence of our policy goal's, not the primary motive.

1916
08-09-2008, 10:43 AM
2ad8: of course, dude, it is different news... like in a parallel world...

Saakashvilli - it's a american hound dog, so U.S. government will make all that can help Georgia. and most of american people (i think so, but i hope that i miss) will trust in news from Georgia. because all russians (or most of them) is very evil f****g people - as think everytime in USA and other countries. may be it so, but evil f****g people was sleeping when tank bombs from Georgia's side destroyed them place and killed peacemakers. and now when we have 15 killed and more than 200 wounded men all russians soldier stay on them place in Osetia - no actions to Georgia.
have a nice life !

IamSam
08-09-2008, 10:53 AM
Georgia is recalling their 2,000 troops stationed in Iraq and the US is providing transportation for them.


Saakashvilli - it's a american hound dog, so U.S. government will make all that can help Georgia. and most of american people (i think so, but i hope that i miss) will trust in news from Georgia. because all russians (or most of them) is very evil f****g people - as think everytime in USA and other countries. may be it so, but evil f****g people was sleeping when tank bombs from Georgia's side destroyed them place and killed peacemakers. and now when we have 15 killed and more than 200 wounded men all russians soldier stay on them place in Osetia - no actions to Georgia.
have a nice life !

Of course the US is going to help Georgia. They are an ally and we have a state named the same name. Russians aren't evil people, however I have never liked Putin and the regime he has put in place. True, Russia had 15 'peacekeepers' in there...but what were they really doing? Russia lies about operations all the time (for further proof, Russian police killed hundreds of innocent civilians at that theater and blamed it on the Chechneans). Please...Russia shouldn't have invaded just like the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq.

1916
08-09-2008, 10:58 AM
I really don't understand why Russia is messing around in this. I mean...you'd think they wouldn't want to go all US on someones ass...

hallilujah !!!
dude, you are best... why Russia invades Georgia (South Osetia only - do you mean not?) ?

IAmSam: oh yeah, there is many oil or other mineral resourses ?
me: hmm... look at Wiki statistic about Georgia and Russia territory for knowing that Russia dont need more resourses like it need for some Greedy businessmen from any country in North American.

IAmSam: haha... i think Russia want to be bigger than now for having more influences in region and be against USA !!!
me: ... of course... stupid russians want to be everytime against USA. russians like war action. after Second World War (after 27 billion killed men), after Afghanistan (15 000 killed men), after Chechnya (4 000 killed men) Russia like to have war action everytime for having more killed people.

IAmSam: hmm... so why Russia invades Georgia???

IamSam
08-09-2008, 11:03 AM
hallilujah !!!
dude, you are best... why Russia invades Georgia (South Osetia only - do you mean not?) ?

IAmSam: oh yeah, there is many oil or other mineral resourses ?
me: hmm... look at Wiki statistic about Georgia and Russia territory for knowing that Russia dont need more resourses like it need for some Greedy businessmen from any country in North American.

IAmSam: haha... i think Russia want to be bigger than now for having more influences in region and be against USA !!!
me: ... of course... stupid russians want to be everytime against USA. russians like war action. after Second World War (after 27 billion killed men), after Afghanistan (15 000 killed men), after Chechnya (4 000 killed men) Russia like to have war action everytime for having more killed people.

IAmSam: hmm... so why Russia invades Georgia???

Is that supposed to be funny?

Russia invaded Georgia because, supposedly, their 15 'peacekeepers' were killed. Nowhere did I say anything about oil, sorry you thought that was what I was talking about. What I was saying is that Russia had to make up an excuse for invading. What I want to know is were they actually 'peacekeepers' or military advisers?

jacknife737
08-09-2008, 11:09 AM
It seems a bit of a muggy situation. Although I tend to lean towards the Georgian side, NY Times is reporting that over 1,500 have been killed thus far, more and more this reeks of Putin grandstanding against the West, I guess on the domestic front it’s already a victory. This is Putin’s “fuck you” to the US for NATO expansion. I cringe every time I read that Russian troops have been described as “peacekeepers”.

IamSam
08-09-2008, 11:20 AM
It seems a bit of a muggy situation. Although I tend to lean towards the Georgian side, NY Times is reporting that over 1,500 have been killed thus far, more and more this reeks of Putin grandstanding against the West, I guess on the domestic front it’s already a victory. This is Putin’s “fuck you” to the US for NATO expansion. I cringe every time I read that Russian troops have been described as “peacekeepers”.

Exactly.

And I want to correct something I said earlier, Russia is not a member of NATO, however Georgia has been promised invitation. Russia is a member of the "Partnership For Peace." Apparently they don't care.

Putin has a history of supporting separatist movements and messing with elections. See Ukraine.

1916
08-09-2008, 11:20 AM
Of course the US is going to help Georgia. They are an ally and we have a state named the same name. Russians aren't evil people, however I have never liked Putin and the regime he has put in place. True, Russia had 15 'peacekeepers' in there...but what were they really doing? Russia lies about operations all the time (for further proof, Russian police killed hundreds of innocent civilians at that theater and blamed it on the Chechneans). Please...Russia shouldn't have invaded just like the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq.
ok, man, thank you very much for you mean... i think you right, but not at all...
south osetia population is about (or was) 70 000. all of them had a georgian сitizenship before 1991. there was peaceful between osetinians and georgians people. may be USSR was real evil empire, but people lived in friendship and peace. may be they was poor, but never was against. all was equal.
after 1991 (after USSR), when georgia became independent (FREE) country they start war against south osetia. you can ask why? i don't know reasons of that hate (may be Wiki know). but most of osetinians (about 92%) after that got russian passport for having defend from georgian force. after 1993 in South Osetia was peace (not strong as it wanted, but so peace is better than war). so, know when it started again, Russia defend them citizen.
Georgia's president said some months ago: "You can get your citizens and clear that territory." why osetinians must get out from them territory ???

ad8
08-09-2008, 11:21 AM
I am still very sceptical towards news from both sides. I'd like to hear some neutral comment about it...

IamSam
08-09-2008, 11:25 AM
ok, man, thank you very much for you mean... i think you right, but not at all...
south osetia population is about (or was) 70 000. all of them had a georgian сitizenship before 1991. there was peaceful between osetinians and georgians people. may be USSR was real evil empire, but people lived in friendship and peace. may be they was poor, but never was against. all was equal.
after 1991 (after USSR), when georgia became independent (FREE) country they start war against south osetia. you can ask why? i don't know reasons of that hate (may be Wiki know). but most of osetinians (about 92%) after that got russian passport for having defend from georgian force. after 1993 in South Osetia was peace (not strong as it wanted, but so peace is better than war). so, know when it started again, Russia defend them citizen.
Georgia's president said some months ago: "You can get your citizens and clear that territory." why osetinians must get out from them territory ???

Look, it's not that hard to understand...let me help.

I live in the state of Montana in the US. Now, if Montana was to break away we would have many Canadians in the state. If the US attacked Montana to get it back and some Canadians were killed it would be accidental. It would not give the right for Canada to then attack the state of Washington, 800 miles away from Montana.

Do you see now? I can understand Russian military presence on the border, but I do not see why they are attacking key cities away from Ossetia.

1916
08-09-2008, 11:36 AM
yeah... this very nice... all will say so, like they want to hear it...
what's true ? where's true ? true in actions...

i saw some reports that show in USA about this conflict. if you guys could be know differents between russian military machines and georgians military machines you could see that 'russian' tanks and 'russian' soldiers was in georgian clothes and have american machines.

ok... nevermind... it's all useless. you will trust in that you want trust. continue think about russia that it evil empire... may be sometime it will happened and all our country will fall in hell. i think we have many problems and of course other 'highest' race like american must live easy and happy with sweet (and right) 'democracy' in all world.

i like offspring and i old punk, i dont like inequality and injustice... i dont good like you, dudes, and havent any reasons to be here (between 'highest' people) so have a nice life ! thank you very much for you meanings and wish you peace, clear sky and yellow sun !

IamSam
08-09-2008, 11:44 AM
yeah... this very nice... all will say so, like they want to hear it...
what's true ? where's true ? true in actions...

i saw some reports that show in USA about this conflict. if you guys could be know differents between russian military machines and georgians military machines you could see that 'russian' tanks and 'russian' soldiers was in georgian clothes and have american machines.

ok... nevermind... it's all useless. you will trust in that you want trust. continue think about russia that it evil empire... may be sometime it will happened and all our country will fall in hell. i think we have many problems and of course other 'highest' race like american must live easy and happy with sweet (and right) 'democracy' in all world.

i like offspring and i old punk, i dont like inequality and injustice... i dont good like you, dudes, and havent any reasons to be here (between 'highest' people) so have a nice life ! thank you very much for you meanings and wish you peace, clear sky and yellow sun !

Your English is poor and I can't really tell what you're saying. All I know is that I don't think Russia is an evil empire, but Putin and his regime aren't nice people.

1916
08-09-2008, 11:50 AM
Do you see now? I can understand Russian military presence on the border, but I do not see why they are attacking key cities away from Ossetia.
oh man... i think that we never will know trust about it, because georgian can show you themself destroying in capitol of Osetia and say that it in some georgian city (like Tbilisi). it's just a star of new type of war - media-war. but later true will be know all... i dont know how you can know true. and me too... we trust in our TV channels and TV news (you in USA, me un Russia)... but TV is part of government...

'invading' russia to georgia is not 'war', so russia dont attack any city or village in georgia and willn't to it still it willn't to be the war. we have international documents and acts for diplomacy...

IamSam
08-09-2008, 11:53 AM
'invading' russia to georgia is not 'war', so russia dont attack any city or village in georgia and willn't to it still it willn't to be the war. we have international documents and acts for diplomacy...

How is Russia invading Georgia not war? Have you not read anything I've wrote? Or do you just not understand? Not being mean, but I understand if you don't understand my English. Russia has bombed targets that aren't even close to Ossetia.

Believe what you want...but the truth is there in front of you.

1916
08-09-2008, 12:10 PM
How is Russia invading Georgia not war? Have you not read anything I've wrote? Or do you just not understand? Not being mean, but I understand if you don't understand my English. Russia has bombed targets that aren't even close to Ossetia.

Believe what you want...but the truth is there in front of you.

man, you sit on the other side of world and say like you know the truth. it's you great right. you country is not one of coflict countries. may be you have real informations from frontline. but russia defend them citizen and defend territory of them citizens without bombs and heavy weapons. president of russia (not Putin now, as you know) didn't declare the war, because if it conflict will be war it will be very hard for many people. now, we just stay on own territory and DIDNT BOMBED TARGETS on territory of Georgia (and key cities too).
it's very comfort - to believe what you want and don't think about real reasons...

IamSam
08-09-2008, 12:21 PM
man, you sit on the other side of world and say like you know the truth. it's you great right. you country is not one of coflict countries. may be you have real informations from frontline. but russia defend them citizen and defend territory of them citizens without bombs and heavy weapons. president of russia (not Putin now, as you know) didn't declare the war, because if it conflict will be war it will be very hard for many people. now, we just stay on own territory and DIDNT BOMBED TARGETS on territory of Georgia (and key cities too).
it's very comfort - to believe what you want and don't think about real reasons...
Are you seriously telling me I shouldn't have an opinion on this matter? You're Kazak! Not Russian! I could tell you to stay out of it too!

I know the truth because the BBC is reporting it as well as many other news organizations. Hell...I even got some info from the Iranian news site.

To say that Russia isn't 'defending' (defending in someone else's country?) people with bombs and heavy weapons is bullshit. Russia has even said they have been bombing targets and lost two tactical aircraft. Russia has even activated the Black Sea fleet!

Either open your eyes and go to news sites and come back here with actual information, or continue to sit in your cave and think that your opinion of 'Great Russia' is actually what is happening in the world.

1916
08-09-2008, 12:36 PM
:) ok. i will sit in my cave and continue think about 'Great Russia' (it's real great). come to us and look it yourself (your own eyes) or live in lies. welcome !

if you want to see the truth - come and see it, you can do it.
you see only one version of all news (from one side) and you're not interesting other means... it's ok... it's more comfort...

IamSam
08-09-2008, 12:41 PM
:) ok. i will sit in my cave and continue think about 'Great Russia' (it's real great). come to us and look it yourself (your own eyes) or live in lies. welcome !

if you want to see the truth - come and see it, you can do it.
you see only one version of all news (from one side) and you're not interesting other means... it's ok... it's more comfort...

Dude. I'm done with you. I've already told you that Russia has said itself that they have bombed areas not Ossetia and have lost planes. Don't believe it, but it's there.

Enjoy the cave.

MaF
08-09-2008, 12:53 PM
Osetia is a unrecognized republic. Herd about right of nation to self-determination? That ducked up madman Sakashvili haven't heard bout it.
In russia we've got news in way that
Georgian army eliminates all civil population and destroyin all facilities to make that land unliveable for osetins (which even can make it alive), they shooting in medical transport, killing already hurted and makin other horrors. We've been said that that story bout our jets s just hilarious and stupd. In georgia shut down all russian chanels and ru-domens are under the law too... as russian reporters. And they we've got overall mobilization
And that when they were shootin osetins they've fired on our peacemaker base and so on...
or something in that way....
It's too pity that our president in war time is Medvedev... of course he don't even stand close to Putin...

we've been told bout propaganda in US and how they put the news together and that Sakashvili even speaks english than western reporteers don't have troubles with translation... kinda of joke, imo, but he realy speaks on eng even when he appeals to his people....

P.S. Don't even know how stupid u should be to execute such bullshit orders.... if i were close to Sakashvili when he said " Let's send our troops in Osetia to kill and burn and of course to show how cool we r and show that russians are goddamn faggots and maybe than they finaly take us to NATO" i'd gave him wakener...

1916
08-09-2008, 01:02 PM
Dude. I'm done with you. I've already told you that Russia has said itself that they have bombed areas not Ossetia and have lost planes. Don't believe it, but it's there.

Enjoy the cave.

thanks... here's cold and dark but i have fire and now i'm eating meat of wild bear in my pretty cave and writing message for you on stone notebook.

i want ask, how you can understand what say Russia ? and who can it say? president of russia? or postman from village in russia?
now war's going in media services. all news can be construct from necessary facts and words and you will get informations that will convenient for you government...

1916
08-09-2008, 01:07 PM
P.S. Don't even know how stupid u should be to execute such bullshit orders.... if i were close to Sakashvili when he said " Let's send our troops in Osetia to kill and burn and of course to show how cool we r and show that russians are goddamn faggots and maybe than they finaly take us to NATO" i'd gave him wakener...

it'll be ok. be patient, dude... i think that most of american will not understund us, because they see other version of all news from conflict.

ого ! ну ты разошелся :)

IamSam
08-09-2008, 01:13 PM
Wow. You guys make me laugh. Plus...I've been reading your news and it's funny that it is so weighted towards the Russians being saviors! The BBC is a much more neutral way to get news. They are reporting both sides of the issue. I'm not getting my news from American pathways...wow. Just wow. And you say that your 'President' is in control when Putin is all over the news. Funny...you'd think if the "president" was in control Prime Minister Putin would be out of the picture...

the Alternate
08-09-2008, 01:13 PM
Someone of you told us that "the cold war is over"...
And you almost cringe while hearing that russian troops are "peacekeepers".
And who should keep the peace between two fighting sides in that location in the world. Near the Russian border? Maybe United States, Uh?
And what the f**k are US troops doing in Iraq, Afghanistan or maybe Kosovo, guys? Also keeping peace? Maybe because they're too close to US? Isn't it so called "Double standards"?
Have you ever asked yourself, why Georgia is now presented as an "ally" to US? How terrible! OMG, they are hurt by Russia but no one cares about 2000 civillians in Tskhinvali (isn't it a genocide?) and 12 russian soldiers dead and 150 wounded.
I don't know why, maybe it's some sort of ethic or propaganda, but when speaking to people who don't like the Policy of Russia, you always meet double standards applied to the matter.
You can almost fool yourself with statements as "spreading the democracy", of course again by killing people and setting anarchy.

IamSam
08-09-2008, 01:24 PM
Someone of you told us that "the cold war is over"...
And you almost cringe while hearing that russian troops are "peacekeepers".
And who should keep the peace between two fighting sides in that location in the world. Near the Russian border? Maybe United States, Uh?
And what the f**k are US troops doing in Iraq, Afghanistan or maybe Kosovo, guys? Also keeping peace? Maybe because they're too close to US? Isn't it so called "Double standards"?
Have you ever asked yourself, why Georgia is now presented as an "ally" to US? How terrible! OMG, they are hurt by Russia but no one cares about 2000 civillians in Tskhinvali (isn't it a genocide?) and 12 russian soldiers dead and 150 wounded.
I don't know why, maybe it's some sort of ethic or propaganda, but when speaking to people who don't like the Policy of Russia, you always meet double standards applied to the matter.
You can almost fool yourself with statements as "spreading the democracy", of course again by killing people and setting anarchy.

Oh fucking christ.

Not all Americans think the same. I don't support the war in Iraq. I supported the war in Afghanistan because the attacks on my country originated from there. Kosovo was a NATO mission and the US is there to stop the hotheaded people of the region from trying to 'cleanse' each other. US forces aren't the only ones that have been there.

Plus, once you invade a country like Iraq and damage it all to hell...isn't it the nice thing to do to try and help them back onto their feet instead of just walking away?

Russian 'peacekeepers' in an area that is disputed and having a 'compound' is a little fishy. As is the Russian military being right there to rush into Ossetia. Plus, no one has commented on the fact that Russia bombed the port city of Poti!

Georgia is an ally to the US. If you don't forget, Russia and the US were friendly during the Yeltsin years but then Putin came in and flipped the entire situation.

Stop making this a US versus Russia issue. This is a muddy mess and I want clarity and for it to stop. Not a goddamn pissing match between the US and Russia.

adombomb222
08-09-2008, 01:39 PM
1916 is a troll, just like those Turkish guys that came up during the Armenian Genocide threads. Ignore him, he can't even type.

the_GoDdEsS
08-09-2008, 01:44 PM
1916 is a troll, just like those Turkish guys that came up during the Armenian Genocide threads. Ignore him, he can't even type.

Do not discriminate against people just because they don´t speak your language well. He is definitely not a troll for presenting the other side of the story. Anyway, so what is your contribution to the actual topic?

IamSam
08-09-2008, 01:49 PM
Do not discriminate against people just because they don´t speak your language well. He is definitely not a troll for presenting the other side of the story. Anyway, so what is your contribution to the actual topic?

No. Adombomb is right. 1916 has brought nothing into this thread other than a really convoluted outlook on reality. His language skills are a problem because we can't tell what he is really saying. And you should answer your own question...what are you contributing other than trying to defend someone who makes no sense?

EDIT: I just realized that my post was very angry sounding, and I apologize. I'm just frustrated with the fact that people believe they are open minded and then side with one side of an argument and blame me as if I'm President Bush. All apologies. But I do stand by my thoughts of 1916.

the_GoDdEsS
08-09-2008, 01:56 PM
And you should answer your own question...what are you contributing other than trying to defend someone who makes no sense?

Call it a moderation remark. Telling somebody "Ignore him, he can´t even type." and disregarding all their views in such manner just because they speak English as a foreign language and in a different alphabet does not seem correct.

1916
08-09-2008, 02:01 PM
1) Are you seiously think that ONE and ONLY Ossama bin Laden was guilt in 9/11 ? It was big planned operations. It was too difficult for one organization like AL-Khaida. i think that some organizations and departments (with government) of america can be guilt in that tragic events too. isn't it ? Prove and give reason for against...

2) Yugoslavia (as it named at that times) was not in EU or in NATO, when started problem in kosovo. it was problem inside the country... still somebody from the West didn't come to Serbia. there wasn't citizens of any country from EU or NATO. people of Serbia could solve them problem themselfes and tragedy could be less, than it was with 'help' from USA and UK (other EU countries has not so much influence on situation).

3) South Osetia for Russia is not Iraq for USA. We don't attack independent country. If we could start war somewhere like in Honduras may be you could be say that it similar, but now it not so.

4) Why nobody comment situation in Poti ? Because there is still never was. Or you was there and see it already ? hmm... sorry man if i wrong. but if you know news only from BBC and something like CNN, it's mean nothing...

5) And for sweet ! Ask russian people. Most of them say you, that they live better in Putin time than in Yeltsin. Yeltsin was everytime drunk and we didn't have any power for defend our territory. it was very comfort for USA. of course, Yeltsin was better for USA. but why we must choose russian president that will be comfort for you (for americans), not for russian citizens ? now we have mostly better social guarantees than earlier...

6) I think we guys should to try heavy metal...

Resume: i agree with you last words of you message. i want to say you this: "Not all is truth that you can know from internet and TV. Especially now about russia from USA (or Georgia)." We say: "Better poor peace than good war." so, let's be patient and more understanding to each other... we equal, and try to be one of people of the world, not one of people of your country... i will try to do it too...
amene

IamSam
08-09-2008, 02:02 PM
Call it a moderation remark. Telling somebody "Ignore him, he can´t even type." and disregarding all their views in such manner just because they speak English as a foreign language and in a different alphabet does not seem correct.

Ah! Understood! I didn't realize you were a moderator...I've never seen you around that I can remember. I can see what you were doing...adombomb was slightly out of line...but 1916 should get some of the blame by insulting me by making stereotypical remarks involving Americans, which I'm somewhat offended by.

1916
08-09-2008, 02:04 PM
1916 is a troll, just like those Turkish guys that came up during the Armenian Genocide threads. Ignore him, he can't even type.

:) yeah, i'm troll... and i'm living in the cave...

jacknife737
08-09-2008, 02:08 PM
1) Are you seiously think that ONE and ONLY Ossama bin Laden was guilt in 9/11 ? It was big planned operations. It was too difficult for one organization like AL-Khaida. i think that some organizations and departments (with government) of america can be guilt in that tragic events too. isn't it ? Prove and give reason for against...

When did this thread become about 9/11 and your conspiracy theories? Try and stay on topic.

adombomb222
08-09-2008, 02:11 PM
Call it a moderation remark. Telling somebody "Ignore him, he can´t even type." and disregarding all their views in such manner just because they speak English as a foreign language and in a different alphabet does not seem correct.

I was saying ignore him because the way he's posting is simmilar to posts I've seen before in another thread.

1916
08-09-2008, 02:11 PM
ok. sorry dudes, that i can't speak well... i think that my skills in english is really poor... i'll try to learn it more.
and now, i wish you well and happy time, and i hope you'll never see the war you own eyes.

Rooster
08-09-2008, 02:39 PM
Well, i understand the matter like this:

Osettia became somewhat independent country (but not recognised by UN) in early ninties. Georgia attacked Ossetia's citizens (most of them Russian) and media reports that more than 1500 people in Ossetia were slaughtered since hostilities began. Russia then invaded Ossetia and also bombed some strategic and civilian targets in Georgia to answer the Georgian attack.

I think that Georgia was trying to deffend (or gain back) the land they lost, but that can not be an excuse for killing 1500 civilians. On the other hand, if Russia wanted to deffent Russian citizens in Ossetia, why did they attack Georgian civillian targets?

I'm a bit skeptical about what media say. The best way to get a picture of what is really going on there is to find an alternative, indipendend news source, not the source from any of involved countries. I am not on either's side, but i do think that this is some serious problem, that could lead to another big war, not only between those three countries.

IamSam
08-09-2008, 02:51 PM
Well, i understand the matter like this:

Osettia became somewhat independent country (but not recognised by UN) in early ninties. Georgia attacked Ossetia's citizens (most of them Russian) and media reports that more than 1500 people in Ossetia were slaughtered since hostilities began. Russia then invaded Ossetia and also bombed some strategic and civilian targets in Georgia to answer the Georgian attack.

I think that Georgia was trying to deffend (or gain back) the land they lost, but that can not be an excuse for killing 1500 civilians. On the other hand, if Russia wanted to deffent Russian citizens in Ossetia, why did they attack Georgian civillian targets?

I'm a bit skeptical about what media say. The best way to get a picture of what is really going on there is to find an alternative, indipendend news source, not the source from any of involved countries. I am not on either's side, but i do think that this is some serious problem, that could lead to another big war, not only between those three countries.

Exactly what's happening. That's why I use BBC (slightly biased) and the AP which normally gives only the facts and both sides of the issues.

Rooster
08-09-2008, 03:03 PM
Exactly what's happening. That's why I use BBC (slightly biased) and the AP which normally gives only the facts and both sides of the issues.

I'll remember this when i want to check out any news about the problem. They report about it on the news in my country (Slovenia) too, and they usually aren't that bad, they report both sides of the story. Today this was the first news on the TV, the second was a severe storm that missed my village only by a few kilometers (hail storm, hail stones in the size of a man's fist destroyed everything, but anyway this is off-topic).

I hope that the problem will be peacefully resolved, i do not wish to see another war start. As i said this could lead to a massive war (if NATO and US would possibly involve, and if Russia found more allies for fighting), and this would not be good.

Rooster
08-09-2008, 03:09 PM
And Raptor: is that usage of the word "country" proper for Ossetia? If not recognised by the UN... ought it to be used at all?


Well, actually i'm not sure about this, but i didn't find any better word for it. Anyway, we all know what this is about, so it shouldn't be very confusive.

Rooster
08-09-2008, 03:33 PM
That just shows a little bias, in an insidious way.

I've already said i'm not on either's side. English is not my first language, and i couldn't find any better words to describe what Ossetia had become in early ninties - they see themselves as a country, but they are not recognised by others. Besides, i wrote "somewhat independent country", which is more in a descriptive way of South Ossetia's situation.

Everything clear now?

Rooster
08-09-2008, 04:06 PM
You're a touch testy, hmph. It was clear before. I wasn't attacking you.

No, i didn't mean you were attacking me - i just wanted to clear everything out :)

But well, you are right, in some way we are probably all a little biased. I feel sorry and find terrible that 1500 people died, and that might have put me a bit on Ossetian's side. But i always try to look over all facts, and because of them i'm still more neutral to this situation.

Through the history there were several rebellions of Ossetians during which they demanded indipendency. On the other hand, the land was Georgian, and now they wanted to gain it back, which is a good counter argument for Ossetia's supporters. And Russia shouldn't attack civillian targets in Georgia because of what happened in Ossetia, they should only interfere in Ossetia if anywhere. Each country (South Ossetia included) is right to some point:

Ossetia: They have Russian citizenship, and they have been demanding independency for a long time.
Georgia: They wanted to defend their country's soil
Russia: They wanted to help Russian citizens in South Ossetia.

BUT also each country is wrong somewhere:

Ossetia: While they are Russian citizens, they are still living on Georgia's soil
Georgia: No need for slaughtering of 1500 or more civilians
Russia:They should interfere only in Ossetia, no need to attack civillian targets in Georgia, they should ONLY attack nearby military strategic targets IF ANY.

This is my opinion of the situation.

MaF
08-09-2008, 04:22 PM
And Raptor: is that usage of the word "country" proper for Ossetia? If not recognised by the UN... ought it to be used at all?
Yeah? Yeah, brainwashed you've been, my love. For one thing, what is so better with Putin? The illusion of power? The fantasy that you matter on the big political scene? The only reason you matter at all, my glassy-eyed Russian mate, is the oil bonanza. Second, Putin's grab of power seems fine to you people, everyone knows that. Everyone knows you don't mind having him arrest innocent people whose only wrong is their stance against the one-party rule. Everyone knows you'd rather pay the mafia their due than protest against a poor democracy, so long as you THINK YOU MATTER. So long as you think the West detests you. So long as you think the US is trying to wrestle you into compliance.

Which is why your fellow Russians are buying up my land, sob, in all the nice little places in the south, Nice, Courchevel.... Sob. All the well-heeled Russians here you eventually find they're either banished millionaires or mafia-related. A nightmare. There's not a decent rich Russian on our soil. Not only is that an everyday fact, it's also analysed in the press. Ossetia may or may not be a breakaway enclave, it's still being INVADED by Russia... you people spread like the plague.

Point is, however much of a drunken cuntwipe Yeltsin might have been, he was nowhere, nowhere near as autocratic as Putin, were it only for that he would deserve respect. I'm amazed at how a great mind like Solzhenitsyn could possibly have any respect for Putin and criticise the West the way he did in his years in exile. But any look at Putin's recent breaking down of the mining or oil industry (Yukos might ring a bell... well it's happening all over again, and nobody seems to mind) points him out for the megalomaniac he really is.

That's whole bunch of raving.
Now my position as Moscovite :)
1st. Yeltsin was drunk bastard. He gave the controll of all big goverment property (factories, enterprises, etc) to his goddamn friends that were REAL F@ckin bandits. We've got shooting in the lights of day. That was scarry and terrible time. There were no law, except the law of that bustards. And than, when that clown left his president post land breathed with relief.
2nd. There s no such thing as one main party. Everybody knows that it sux, but it's the better we have and we can't do any better, cause all of our oppositions are comunists, clowns or massons! Got u dizzy, yeah? That's our parties....
3rd. I don't know of any goverment criminal against "contra" Again, it's just ridiculous... it's not the time of our civil war or Stalin or whatever. There s no such thing as "innocent people whose only wrong is their stance against the one-party rule.". He jailed some everyonehated bandits from Eltsin gang to get more respect from wide masses...
4th. About buyin land etc... u know, most (99.99) of russians simply can't do it... and those who can that's the one from Eltsin's gang... and so on, and so on....
And Soljenitsin was cracked on idea of god and that your faith in him makes u better and that jail makes u better and that all russian goverment sucks, cause it broke his life (yeah, that's one true). He didn't have any good relations with Putin. It's clearly appears at his funeral...

MaF
08-09-2008, 04:35 PM
Ossetia: While they are Russian citizens, they are still living on Georgia's soil
Georgia: No need for slaughtering of 1500 or more civilians
Russia:They should interfere only in Ossetia, no need to attack civillian targets in Georgia, they should ONLY attack nearby military strategic targets IF ANY.

This is my opinion of the situation.

I'm not sure about that that's soil belongs to georgia. Osetins lived here much more longer... and that perturbation with soviet union and that carving after it crushed.... imo, be better if that soil woul belong to native inhabbitans... and north osetia belongs to russia... south to georgia... what the mess! What were they thinkin?

They atacked? :confused: heared nothing of it... maby that accident was... maby... what am i saying? It's imposible! It's just like if i got the knife and kill my cousin! We've lived too many time together just to start nible our own throats....

P.S. U know, i hate patriots, but here i can't leave my country undefended.. paradox!

Also as we seen in news our soldiers mostly evacuate and protect civils... also we're gettin examples of news from georgia (that shows Sakashwili as 3rd Hitler) and from America (that looks like starstripped propaganda). That's how it looks from our borders. And also there was one chapter (?) when georgian soldiers fire at unarmed man, he hides behinf the building and they're going after him on tank... keep shootin.... brrrrrrr

2 1916
Просто к слову, у меня родня в Казахстане есть. По отцу. :).
Блин, качаем права на форуме поп-панковской группы... кстати, это круто, что у них есть такие ветки на форуме.
(Translate: It's amazin that The Offspring got political thread...and it's strange that i demand's russia's right here)

And onemore we've got also news that goverment of Kiev (Yustchenko himself) supports Georgia. And also that there was large weapon supplies to georgia from ukraine... and that there's traditional (beter say periodical) split on followers of russian and american tale.

Rooster
08-09-2008, 05:00 PM
Raptor: you're trying to be "fair" with the nations, but you're really outraged by the massacres.

Understandable. However, you can't make everybody happy.


Unfortunately you are right, it's impossible to make everyone happy. I need time to get through the rest of your post though, it's really long but full of information :)


I'm not sure about that that's soil belongs to georgia. Osetins lived here much more longer... and that perturbation with soviet union and that carving after it crushed.... imo, be better if that soil woul belong to native inhabbitans...

They atacked? :confused: heared nothing of it... maby that accident was... maby... what am i saying? It's imposible! It's just like if i got the knife and kill my cousin! We've lived too many time together just to start nible our own throats....

P.S. U know, i hate patriots, but here i can't leave my country undefended.. paradox!

Also as we seen in news our soldiers mostly evacuate and protect civils... also we're gettin examples of news from georgia (that lookin as Sakashwili is 3rd Hitler) and from America (that looks like starstripped propaganda). That's how it looks from our borders. And also there was one chapter (?) when georgian soldiers fire at unarmed man, he hides behinf the building and they're going after him on tank... keep shootin.... brrrrrrr

Well, you made a good point, Ossetian's live on that land longer than Georgia possesses it. However, in time of the attack it still was considered Georgian soil, because Ossetia is not recognised as an independent country. But naturally the Ossetian's want independency. Slovenia (my country) was in similar situation in early ninties (similar situation in that we wanted independency), when we fought our freedom (not me literally, i was 3 at the time), we separated from Yugoslavia. However, Slovenia was a republic before, we lived on our own soil, just were not independent, so other than wanting independency our situation was much different than situation in Ossetia now.

But i have heard on the news too that Russia attacked targets in Georgia (bombed), and that interference was wrong, they should only help in Ossetia. I think that the massacre Georgians did was just inexceptable.

I think it's best if this matter would be sort out peacefully, because more killings would lead nowhere.

adombomb222
08-09-2008, 11:47 PM
Personal News Update: My family member who works and lives in Georgia has been out of the country visiting family in Ireland. So she is safe.

the Alternate
08-10-2008, 02:36 AM
2 Duskygrin & Co.: how brainwashed are you, my dear!)))
In my view, it's a bit stupid and naive to think that Yeltsin made Russia friendly and Putin did the opposite. To clear it a bit, I'll tell you that Yeltsin made everything he could to hear western leaders say that "Russia is a friend". But the other side of the medal was that he threw Russia to great inequality, poverty, criminal and totally forgot about Russian national strategic interests.
In early 90s Russian Foreign affairs policy was extremely weak and that was a very wanted thing to US and Nato cause that time they can do anything they wanted in the world. And it's not that hard to understand, why are western countries so unhappy to see a firm, strong, clear and reasonable (from the opposite point) position of Russia. So the other way to resist it is to call for old fears of population and associate Putin's policy with the Cold War. If done, and people believe it, they won't hear anything reasonable because of their fear, and they will support everything anti-Russian that is done by the governments.
The other consequence is that you'll never get an independent source of news. Everybody is lying. I don't believe everything told in Russian media (Abkhazians and Ossetians aren't very good guys) but I don't believe a thing told by the Georgians. I'm quite sure that this operation in Ossetia was totally planned and prepared by the Georgians up to what will be told to media in case Russia will protect its soldiers there (who definitely prevented Ossetians and Georgians from killing each other).
I think that the news that Russian aircraft are bombing civillians is a bullshit isteria of Georgian government because there's no reason for that. Russia doesn't want Georgian people to vote joining NATO.

Rooster
08-10-2008, 03:01 AM
To everyone who says that "Russia bobming Georgia is bullshit" and that "Russia didn't attack Georgia". How do you know YOU haven't been brainwashed? Try to find an alternative source of news, not the source that may be cotrolled by your government. Because i don't believe any news that comes directly from any of the involved countries untill i hear an independent news source confirm that.

edit: all those who say Russia didn't attack Georgia, read my next post

Rooster
08-10-2008, 05:17 AM
The latest news (found on Yahoo):


Russia expands bombing blitz in Georgia By DAVID NOWAK, Associated Press Writer
7 minutes ago



Russia expanded its bombing blitz Sunday against neighboring U.S.-allied Georgia, targeting the country's capital for the first time while Georgian troops pulled out of the breakaway province of South Ossetia, as Russia has demanded.

Georgia's Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia says that Georgian troops have relocated to new positions outside South Ossetia.

"They are outside the region entirely," he said in a telephone conference.

Russia has demanded that Georgia pull out its troops from South Ossetia as a condition to negotiate a cease-fire. It also urged Georgia to sign a pledge not to use force against South Ossetia as another condition for ending hostilities.

Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said that Moscow now needs to verify the Georgian withdrawal. "We must check all that. We don't trust the Georgian side," he said.

Russian jets raided a plant on the eastern outskirts of Tbilisi that builds Su-25 ground jets used in the conflict by Georgia, a U.S. ally whose troops have been trained by American soldiers. The attack damaged runways but caused no casualties, said Georgia's Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili.

"We heard a plane go over and then a big explosion," said Malkhaz Chachanidze, a 41-year old ceramics artist whose house is located just outside the fence of the factory, which has been running since the Soviet era. "It woke us up, everything shook."

The risk of the conflict setting off a wider war increased when Russian-supported separatists in another Georgia's breakaway region, Abkhazia, launched air and artillery strikes on Georgian troops to drive them out of a small part of the province they control. Fifteen U.N. military observers were told to evacuate.

Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and have built up ties with Moscow. Russia has granted its passports to most of their residents.

In yet another sign that the conflict could widen, Ukraine warned Russia on Sunday it could bar Russian navy ships from returning to their base in the Crimea because of their deployment to Georgia's coast.

Russian jets have been roaming Georgia's skies since Friday. They raided several air bases and bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.

The Russian warplanes also struck near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline which carries Caspian crude to the West, but no supply interruptions have been reported.

Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili called it an "unprovoked brutal Russian invasion."

President Bush called for an end to the Russian bombings and an immediate halt to the violence.

"The attacks are occurring in regions of Georgia far from the zone of conflict in South Ossetia. They mark a dangerous escalation in the crisis," Bush said in a statement to reporters while attending the Olympic Games in Beijing.

Jim Jeffrey, Bush's deputy national security adviser, warned that "if the disproportionate and dangerous escalation on the Russian side continues, that this will have a significant long-term impact on U.S.-Russian relations."

A Russian raid on Gori near South Ossetia Saturday which apparently targeted a military base on the town's outskirts left numerous civilian casualties.

An Associated Press reporter who visited the town shortly after the strike saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.

Russian officials said they weren't targeting civilians, but Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. He warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks.

"Whatever side is used to bomb civilians and the positions of peacekeepers, this side is not safe and they should know this," Lavrov said.

The U.N. Security Council met for the third time since late Thursday night to try to help resolve the situation. Another meeting requested by Georgia was scheduled for Sunday afternoon.

Georgia launched the major offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday.

Lavrov told reporters Saturday that some 1,500 people had been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, with the death toll rising. The figures could not be independently confirmed.

But residents of the South Ossentian provincial capital Tskhinvali who survived the bombardment by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died. They said bodies were lying everywhere.

Lomaia, Georgia's Security Council chief, estimated that Russia sent 2,500 troops into Georgia.

In Saturday's meeting with refugees in the city of Vladikavkaz across the border, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin described Georgia's actions as "complete genocide. Putin also said Georgia had effectively lost the right to rule the breakaway province — an indication Moscow could be preparing to fulfill South Ossetians' wish to be absorbed into Russia.

Georgia's Foreign Ministry said the country was "in a state of war" and accused Russia of beginning a "massive military aggression." The Georgian parliament approved a state of martial law, mobilizing reservists and ordering government authorities to work round-the-clock.

Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev said that Moscow sent troops into South Ossetia to protect its peacekeepers and civilians on a mission to "enforce peace." He said that Russia would seek to bring the Georgian attackers to criminal responsibility.

Medvedev said he was ordering the military prosecutor to document crimes against civilians in South Ossetia.

Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. Today, Russia has approximately 30 times more people than Georgia and 240 times the area.

Russia also laid much of the responsibility for ending the fighting on Washington, which has trained Georgian troops. Washington, in turned, blamed Russia.

White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said Bush had spoken with both Medvedev and Saakashvili. But it was unclear what might persuade either side to stop shooting — both claim the other violated a cease-fire declared Thursday.

Georgia said it has shot down 10 Russian planes, including four brought down Saturday, according to Lomaia. It also claimed to have captured two Russian pilots, who were shown on Georgian television.

Russian Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the General Staff, confirmed Saturday that two Russian planes had been shot down, but did not say where or when.

Russian military commanders said 15 peacekeepers have been killed and about 150 wounded in South Ossetia, accusing Georgian troops of killing and wounding Russian peacekeepers when they seized Russian checkpoints. The allegations couldn't be independently confirmed.

In Abkhazia, the separatist government said it intended to push Georgian forces out of the Kodori Gorge. The northern part of the gorge is the only area of Abkhazia that has remained under Georgian government control.

Separatist forces also were concentrating on the border with Georgia's Zugdidi region, and Russia's NTV television reported that additional Russian troops landed in Abkhazia Sunday, heading in the same direction.

Russia also has sent a naval squadron to blockade Georgia's Black Sea coast, the Interfax news agency reported. A Russian Navy spokesman refused to comment on the report.

Lomaia, the Georgian security chief, confirmed that Russia has imposed what he called an "illegal blockade" on Georgia and turned back several ships with humanitarian supplies.

Lomaia said that Georgian administrative buildings and two villages in Abkhazia's Kodori Gorge were bombed by Russians. He said there were no casualties.

Lomaia said that Russians also raided a Georgian military facility in the Zugdidi region just south of Abkhazia, inflicting no casualties.

___

Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili in Tbilisi, Georgia; Douglas Birch on the Russian-Georgian border; George Abdaladze in Gori, Georgia; and Jim Heintz, Vladimir Isachenkov and Lynn Berry in Moscow contributed to this report.



Now Abkhazia is resisting too and wants to break away from Georgia. What are your thoughts?

wheelchairman
08-10-2008, 05:54 AM
I've long since stopped reading the debates here, but before I stopped I wanted to correct some points of views.



At first, about why most of Ossetian people are Russian citizens via passports. That wasn't a purposed action by the government but it is consequences of the law of Russian Federation that was accepted in early 90s and which tells that "everyone who has a Soviet passport to be able to exchange it to Russian passport at his own will". In early 90s Ossetians and Abkhazians rejected to get Georgian passports and remained with Soviet. According to Russian legislation, everyone who had Soviet citizenship can get Russian at will.

Perhaps, but this is typical of many nations involved in similar conflicts. Ukraine offered passports to all citizens of Transnistria (I think, it was years ago I heard about this). I mean it's a typical way to undermine the opposing governmental institutions. And that's really what it's all about.


Stop right there. The United States after the Cold War has attempted to play nice with Russia. We've even helped to include them in NATO. It's Russia, or Putin for that matter, that is trying his hardest to alienate his country from the world once again.
In international conflicts it's rather futile to make one side an angel, or really even to support one side over another. The US does what any good nation does and is trying to protect it's long term interests, that's also exactly what Russia is doing.

MaF
08-10-2008, 06:00 AM
2Duskygrin

Only now admit that г said something to me and, oh man! That's so boring! I started to read and fail to end. Even the funniest surename as Z'uzin can't force me to read it all.
Don't know what are u talking about... got short memory, maby that was and so? We need to вуаутв our interests.

Hermit
08-10-2008, 06:42 AM
Ossetia is a breakaway part of Georgia. It broke away during the 1990's and is not recognized by the UN.

Map of South Ossetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:South_ossetia_english.png)

As you can see here, Ossetia is in Georgia. Georgia invaded to take it back, Russia got all indignant and in there space because some Russian citizens live there. It would be like a small part of France rebelled, France invaded it to take it back and there were German citizens there, so Germany invaded France and bombed Paris.

Read the History, Macho:

South Ossetia

South Ossetia covers 3.900 square km and in 1989 had 99.000 inhabitants, 66 percent Ossets and 29 percent Georgians. Rural population among Ossets: 34 per cent (1989).

Revolutionary activity had began in South Ossetia as early as 1903. S. Kirov directed Bolshevik activities in the region from 1909, and shortly after the outbreak of the February Revolution a soviet was formed at Vladikavkaz.

The South Ossetia became a part of the Georgian Menshevik Republic with the break up of the Russian empire in 1918, while the North formed a part of the Terek Soviet Republic.

Fierce fighting took place in The North Caucasus during the ensuing civil war (1918-21) and in January , 1919 white forces of General Denikin occupied North Ossetia . In late March, 1920, however, Vladikavkaz fell to the Red Army , and on November 17, 1920 northern Ossetia was included in the newly formed Mountain ASSR as the Ossetian Okrug . On July 7, 1924 Osetia was reorganized as the North Ossetian Autonomous Oblast and on December 5, 1936, as the North Ossetian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. The south Ossetian Oblast was organized within the Georgian republic on April 20,1922.

In 1936, North Ossetia was upgraded to Autonomous Republic, which in fact had no meaning during Stalin's dictatorship. The Ossetians were loyal to the Soviet Union during World War II, when the Germans pressed to reach the oil fields of Baku and Grozny. After the war they were rewarded in that their republic was enlarged at the expense of the Chechen-Ingush ASSR and Stavropol krai. The Muslim Digor Ossets, however, were deported to Central Asia.

In 1989, in the freedom of glasnost and Perestroika and frightened by rising Georgian nationalism, the South Ossetians demanded unification with North Ossetia. In December the next year, the Georgian Parliament declared that South Ossetia was no longer autonomous and authorized suppression of newspapers and bans on demonstrations. One issue at stake was the language. Georgian was declared as official language. The Ossetians declared Osetian as the official language of South Ossetia. Fighting commenced in January 1991. During the fighting, South Ossetians were drained of a large part of their population. It is difficult to estimate the number of inhabitants in today's South Ossetia. Most Georgians who lived in the republic left for Georgia proper, and only a few small enclaves in South Ossetia are still inhabited by Georgians

More than 100.000 Ossets fled from Georgia and South Ossetia to North Ossetia. The fighting ended in July 1992 when a cease-fire, at the initiative of Russian President Yeltsin, was agreed and a peacekeeping force of Ossets, Georgians and Russians was set up. The agreement is being observed by the CSCE in Tbilissi. But since then little progress has been made. South Ossetia is in a situation of permanent economic crisis and there is a lack of almost everything including jobs, clothes, food heating and electricity. Schools and universities are closed because of lack of heating and books. The situation is worsened by Georgia cutting electricity supplies, which has led to North Ossetia running an electric cable from Russia through the mountain range.

The conflict has resulted in increasing South Ossetia claims for a reunification with North Ossetia and for a stronger affiliation with the North Caucasian ethnic groups and republics.
These claims are supported by North Ossetia and by the Confederation of Peoples of the Caucasus. The Confederation, after the success in the Abkhaz war, threatened Georgia with war if she repeats military action against South Ossetia.

wheelchairman
08-10-2008, 07:24 AM
And whilst it may all be fine and dandy for a country to look after its long-term self-interests, just like any individual is free to look after themselves, it is no way commensurate to wielding imperialistic power, just like it is just not on for an individual to encroach on someone else's freedom.

An individual is restricted by authority (the state and it's institutions, not to mention also encouraged to be a good citizen, carrot and stick), whereas there is no binding international authority, therefore it's everyone for themselves. It might not be just, but then there is no international justice really either.

the Alternate
08-10-2008, 07:52 AM
Perhaps, but this is typical of many nations involved in similar conflicts. Ukraine offered passports to all citizens of Transnistria (I think, it was years ago I heard about this). I mean it's a typical way to undermine the opposing governmental institutions. And that's really what it's all about.

yes it is. But here the subject isn't something that outstands from the general. Look, the law was purposed to let any citizen of Soviet Union, a predcessor to Russian Federation, to become a citizen of Russia. When it was accepted it didn't suppose any conflicts. There is no special purpose in it. No one offered the passports but it is not legitime to reject.

2 Rator88: Now the war is not only in the fields but informational too. Of course Georgia will use anything to seem a victim. But it's their fault. They first began a large scaled war and now should pay the consequences.

Rooster
08-10-2008, 08:37 AM
Now that i've done some more research i found something in favour of Georgia: the land that is now called South Ossetia seems to be Georgian in the first place (see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samachablo), so i don't find it weird if they want to gain it back. However, the massacre of 1500 people still bothers me, this is absolutely the wrong way to solve this problem. And russia doesn't seem to act properly with their attack on Georgia - they are attacking civillian targets also, not only military targets.

I stay in neutral position, because neither of the country is acting completely right to solve the matter.

UFO
08-10-2008, 08:53 AM
Duskygrin - The only reason we haven't yet taught Russia a good lesson in international manners is because we are so dependent on oil and gas that we would first bend over backwards in a desperate endeavour to pussyfoot round sanctions.

You said it like political prostitute.

Georgia used forbidden weapon to attack South Ossetia ( mean heavy artilery "Hailstones", killed about 2000 citizens. So who will help this people, fucking NATO. WE are protecting our brothers and sisters at present moment.
Russia invades Georgia- BULLSHIT. Russian forces just entered in the capital of South Osetia and kicked Fascists out of there. Please tell me only one thing, why did Georgia attacked helpless citizens?

Rooster
08-10-2008, 09:05 AM
Duskygrin - The only reason we haven't yet taught Russia a good lesson in international manners is because we are so dependent on oil and gas that we would first bend over backwards in a desperate endeavour to pussyfoot round sanctions.

You said it like political prostitute.

Georgia used forbidden weapon to attack South Ossetia ( mean heavy artilery "Hailstones", killed about 2000 citizens. So who will help this people, fucking NATO. WE are protecting our brothers and sisters at present moment.
Russia invades Georgia- BULLSHIT. Russian forces just entered in the capital of South Osetia and kicked Fascists out of there. Please tell me only one thing, why did Georgia attacked helpless citizens?

Oh, cut the crap! How can you still say Russia didn't invade Georgia, when we can provide numerous alternative and independent sources that claim differently? Even your own officials admitted it! Denying this is impossible now, unless you have no idea what's going on around you.

"Russian officials said they weren't targeting civilians, but Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. He warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks."

I cite this from one of my previous posts, i found that on yahoo. The article was quite neutrally written and provided both side stories.

And i don't think anyone said that Georgia's mass murder of more than 1500 people in South Ossetia was a good thing.

the Alternate
08-10-2008, 09:08 AM
The only reason we haven't yet taught Russia a good lesson in international manners

Sorry, but you do not seem able to at all... But you did in 90s when Russia was weak. The times seem to have changed.

I've remembered a joke as old as WWII maybe:
" - French tanks have 6 gears. 5 to retreat and only one to move forward.
- And what for is this one?
- For cases if enemy attacks from behind."

Rooster
08-10-2008, 09:11 AM
Sorry, but you do not seem able to at all... But you did in 90s when Russia was weak. The times seem to have changed.

I've remembered a joke as old as WWII maybe:
" - French tanks have 6 gears. 5 to retreat and only one to move forward.
- And what for is this one?
- For cases if enemy attacks from behind."

Now this is just trolling, it has nothing to do with the topic.

IamSam
08-10-2008, 09:11 AM
Why is it that when we try to have a political debate on here, crazy extremists pop up faster than dandelions?

Rooster
08-10-2008, 09:15 AM
Why is it that when we try to have a political debate on here, crazy extremists pop up faster than dandelions?

I don't know, threads like this seem to attract trolls like a magnet.

Let's try to resume the political debate now. What do you think about the latest news (i posted what i found on Yahoo a few posts ago)? Another region seems to start rebelling.

IamSam
08-10-2008, 09:30 AM
More for you non-believers.


Referring to the shooting down of a Russian Tu-22 bomber over Georgia
http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28759



Media reports say an apartment block in the Georgian town of Gori was hit by a Russian bomb.


A Russian journalist based in Georgia reported on his Internet blog that an ammunition warehouse in Gori was targeted and destroyed - which caused civilian casualties.

Also Russian planes are reported to have bombed Georgian military bases and airfields across the country as well as the seaport of Poti.

All from Russian Today.

Commie
08-10-2008, 09:39 AM
Oh f**k:(

Unfortunately I don't have much time to read all the replies thoroughly, because I'm leaving to New-York in a couple of hours, but I have a lot of things to say:

So...hmmm... let's get it started and please don't think much about my nickname, I'm not a communist at all, I just like this word:)

1. About BBC and CNN... guys - these are the channels that do show the things that are not real, and there is too much propaganda in the news there. I was in London a year ago and saw by my own eyes and heard by my own ears lots of bullshit about Russia:

the first thing was about Chechnya and it was kind of an insult for me - 'cause the news showed a civilian speaking Russian and talking about some kind of holiday in Chechnya and this person's words were interpreted in English ... mmm... not even false... CNN turned the speech about a holiday into a speech about violation of human rights in Chechnya... and I believe that is f**king wrong:(

2. Kazak is not a person living in Kazakhstan;)

3. Putin is not the president of Russia

Now about Osetia:

Guys there's one simple thing you should do, just change the word Russia to America... say not "Russian soldiers" but "American soldiers"? not "Russian citizens" but "American citizens" and let me ask you a question:

America has military bases all around the world, right? So now let's imagine that there is a country X where an American military base is situated (and has been situated for many years) and moreover lots of American citizens live in this X-country... and then one day the government of the X-country launched attack on the city where your military base was situated and "by chance" killed 1.500 American citizens and 10 american soliders... what would your country do?

You guys telling me that you would say: "Hey, there's nothing wrong in it, killing of 1510 Americans, it is o.k., so let's continue our breakfast"

I believe that even 1 death is enough to do what Russia does now, and 1510 deaths is 1510 times more enough.

Now a couple of remarks on the news and let me put everything into chronological oder:


Morning in the city I live in:
1. Georgian troops bombed Tzhinvali (I'm not quite sure about the transcription, but let it be so)
2. "by chance" 10 Russian peacemakers were killed (United Russia-Georgian peasmaking corp. has been situated in Georgia long before everything began)
3. "by chance" 1500 Russian citizens were killed
4. "by chance" Russian autocade with food and medicines was atacked
5. no reaction from Moscow.

afternoon:

6. some guys from Russian Government on TV saying that "Georgia must stop bombing Tzhinvali and come back to negotiation"

This was the point I started blaming Russian government for doing nothing in such kind of a situation.

evening:

7. Russian tanks entered South Osetia...


The situation now:

1. Russian troops are still in South Osetia and are NOT heading to Tbilisi
2. No russian bombs are dropped on civilians... and I believe that is true, because I saw the report about Russian bombs which had the picture of a civilian house with its roof burning... guys... that is bullshit, a bomb dropped on a house doesn't make its roof burn... it makes the house fall into peaces... just believe me.

P.S. Georgian president spoke English addressing to Georgian people... that's a kind of thing... emmm... that's a kind of a disrespect towards his country, I believe.

Rooster
08-10-2008, 09:48 AM
before everything began)
3. "by chance" 1500 Russian citizens were killed

At Commie (i wrote this in capital letters, so that anyone else might understand it also):

I HAVEN'T SEEN A SINGLE COMMENT HERE THAT GEORGIA DID THE RIGHT THING WHEN THEY COMMITED A MASS MURDER OF 1500 PEOPLE! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO WRITE THIS FOR YOU TO FINALLY GET IT?


And to others who still don't believe: YOUR OFFICIALS ADMITTED THAT THEY BOMBED TARGETS IN GEORGIA; JUST READ THIS:

"Russian officials said they weren't targeting civilians, but Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. He warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks."

Your Minister said that it's Georgia's own guilt that Russia bombed it. THAT MEANS HE HIMSELF (and thus also RUSSIA) ADMITTED THAT RUSSIA ATTACKED GEORGIA WITH AIRSTRIKES!

Read also what IamSam posted in his last comment, if you are still TOO DUMB TO BELIEVE.

Commie
08-10-2008, 09:55 AM
Hey, guy, calm down:)

The news IamSam has posted is not new to me:)

I haven't said that Russian bombers are not bombing Georgia, I know this, yes they are bombing, but don't you think that bombing military targets and civilian targets are two different things?

Yes, I know that our fleet is near Georgia and Abhazia... and I believe that is a right thing Russia has done.

Commie
08-10-2008, 09:59 AM
By the way
Morning in the city I live in:... was the morning of the 8th of August... and the evening was the evening of the 8th of August.

IamSam
08-10-2008, 10:00 AM
Commie: The problem with your 'citizen' approach is that those people in Ossetia should never have been messed with by Russia. Technically they were still Georgians, just Georgians that had tried to break away. So technically, Georgia would have killed 1500 Georgian/Russian citizens.

Russia are not saviors in this sad state of affairs. It is a situation where a larger nation stuck its nose into another nation's business, with dramatic and terrible results. Like the US, Russia is flexing its muscles against an opponent ill equipped to defend itself against such a threat. And that is reprehensible.

Rooster
08-10-2008, 10:02 AM
Hey, guy, calm down:)

The news IamSam has posted are not new to me:)

I haven't said that Russian bombers are not bombing Georgia, I know this, yes they are bombing, but don't you think that bombing military targets and civilian targets are two different things?

Yes, I know that our fleet is near Georgia and Abhazia... and I believe that is a right thing Russia has done.

I'll edit my post a bit, that part about bombing was actually meant to other users who still refuse to believe, and i wrote it in capital letters so that they might finally get the point. I'm glad you know what's really happening :) Although some civillian targets were ALSO hit.

Only that part where i tried to make clear that NO ONE here thinks that killing of 1500 people was the right thing to do was meant to you and also to the others - a lot of people seem to think that we think a massacre of so many people is good.

Commie
08-10-2008, 10:09 AM
NO ONE here thinks that killing of 1500 people - I know this;)
I believe you must be crazy to think like that.

Commie
08-10-2008, 10:19 AM
I'd like to make my position a bit clearer:

This is politics, of course Moscow would say that Georgia provoked everything, and Georgia would say that Moscow is abusing a small country... nobody is ever right in politics, but what Russia does now is a thing I believe should be done.

And everything here is the matter of believes, you can't just sit and wait while your citizens are killed in a faraway land.

And every person that is just technically a Russian citizen - is a Russian citizen indeed.

IamSam
08-10-2008, 12:08 PM
Awesome.


TBILISI, Georgia - Russian news agencies say the Defense Ministry is claiming to have sunk a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack Russian navy ships in the Black Sea.


Russia's Defense Ministry refused to comment on the Sunday reports to The Associated Press and Georgian officials could not immediately be reached.

If confirmed, the incident could mark a serious escalation of the fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian province of South Ossetia.

"Georgian missile patrol boats today made two attempts to attack Russian military ships. The Russian ships opened fire in response and as a result, one of the Georgian ships carrying out the attack was sunk," the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted a ministry spokesman as saying.


TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — Georgia called a cease-fire and said its troops were retreating Sunday from the disputed province of South Ossetia in the face of Russia's far superior firepower. Russia said the soldiers were "not withdrawing but regrouping" and refused to recognize a truce.

The announcement of a retreat came after Russia expanded its bombing blitz Sunday — targeting the area around the Georgian capital's international airport. Russia also deployed a naval squadron off another of Georgia's separatist regions, Abkhazia, and according to Georgia landed thousands of troops.

Well...so much for peace.

Superdope
08-10-2008, 12:56 PM
Russia said the soldiers were "not withdrawing but regrouping"

Sure they were...

Rooster
08-10-2008, 01:19 PM
Sure they were...

So what are your thoughts of this incident? I think that something massive (a big war) could come out from it if the argument would not be resolved soon...

IamSam
08-10-2008, 01:27 PM
So what are your thoughts of this incident? I think that something massive (a big war) could come out from it if the argument would not be resolved soon...

It would come from other states that would be NATO and former Soviet Bloc countries: Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic states, etc. It could spread...but I really think the UN needs to act on this, and fast.

Rooster
08-10-2008, 01:34 PM
It would come from other states that would be NATO and former Soviet Bloc countries: Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic states, etc. It could spread...but I really think the UN needs to act on this, and fast.

I agree with you, UN needs to do something. With NATO involving my country would become involved too, since we are in NATO. But even if it doesn't come to that it's still very serious...

Now about Ossetia, as far as i know the land Ossetian's live on was Georgian land in the first place (i found this on wikipedia, and i couldn't find any other source that would claim that the land was Ossetian's before that :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samachablo). Correct me if i'm wrong, because i'm interested in the problem.

Superdope
08-10-2008, 01:36 PM
So what are your thoughts of this incident? I think that something massive (a big war) could come out from it if the argument would not be resolved soon...

Yeah, a bigger war could definitely be the outcome. Does anyone know if the UN has responded on this yet?

Rooster
08-10-2008, 01:41 PM
Yeah, a bigger war could definitely be the outcome. Does anyone know if the UN has responded on this yet?

Yeah, does anyone know the conclusion of UN meeting?

IamSam
08-10-2008, 02:08 PM
UNITED NATIONS, Aug 10 (Reuters) Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that the president of Georgia Mikheil Saakashvili "must go," the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Zalmay Khalilzad, told the Security Council.

Khalilzad then looked straight at Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin and asked if Moscow was looking for "regime change."

"Is the goal of the Russian Federation to change the leadership of Georgia?" he said.

Churkin did not directly address the question but said there are leaders who "become an obstacle."

"Sometimes those leaders need to contemplate how useful they have become to their people," he told reporters later.

"Regime change is purely an American invention," he said. "We're all for democracy in Georgia."

Khalilzad also accused Russia of preventing the withdrawal of Georgian forces from South Ossetia to prolong the conflict and prevent Georgia from laying down its arms.

"Since Russia is impeding Georgian forces from withdrawing, rejecting a cease-fire and continuing to carry out military attacks against civilian centers, its claims of a humanitarian purpose clearly are not credible," Khalilzad said.

Here you go. Sounds like the start of the Second Cold War.

Rooster
08-10-2008, 02:11 PM
Here you go. Sounds like the start of the Second Cold War.

Third world war actually. This doesn't look good...

IamSam
08-10-2008, 02:20 PM
Third world war actually. This doesn't look good...

The probability of the US entering the war are, IMO, low. We may supply countries with supplies, possibly small units, but the majority of our forces are in Iraq. True, Iraq asked today for a concrete time line for US withdrawl, I doubt anything will happen until the next president takes office early next year. The US could send a battlegroup (naval group centered around an aircraft carrier) and that would give Georgia air supremacy, possibly turn some land battles with pinpoint bombing and close air support, but that's putting a lot of weight on Georgian forces.

EDIT: As of right now Ukraine has 5 military observers in Georgia.

wheelchairman
08-10-2008, 04:02 PM
yes it is. But here the subject isn't something that outstands from the general. Look, the law was purposed to let any citizen of Soviet Union, a predcessor to Russian Federation, to become a citizen of Russia. When it was accepted it didn't suppose any conflicts. There is no special purpose in it. No one offered the passports but it is not legitime to reject.


You don't think that while the Soviet Union was collapsing and nations were breaking away that when they grant citizenship to these countries they weren't predicting some kind of conflict? You really don't think so?



Oh f**k:(

Unfortunately I don't have much time to read all the replies thoroughly, because I'm leaving to New-York in a couple of hours, but I have a lot of things to say:

So...hmmm... let's get it started and please don't think much about my nickname, I'm not a communist at all, I just like this word:)

1. About BBC and CNN... guys - these are the channels that do show the things that are not real, and there is too much propaganda in the news there. I was in London a year ago and saw by my own eyes and heard by my own ears lots of bullshit about Russia:

This raises an interesting point of which I believe you are also guilty of later on in this post. Everything we are discussing is second hand information. Now personally I find more credibility in the BBC than I do in, well any Russian news source. Not that I take the BBC at face value of course. Everything we hear is at least second hand, if not far far more.








You guys telling me that you would say: "Hey, there's nothing wrong in it, killing of 1510 Americans, it is o.k., so let's continue our breakfast"

You see, you were talking about the lying media, these are all unconfirmed reports reported to you at least second hand and probably 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th to the nth power handed. Yet you criticize people for not checking their sources when you don't really understand the basic way that this statistic was created? Or even if it is valid at all.


P.S. Georgian president spoke English addressing to Georgian people... that's a kind of thing... emmm... that's a kind of a disrespect towards his country, I believe.
It's a bit irrelevant and taken out of context.


Commie: The problem with your 'citizen' approach is that those people in Ossetia should never have been messed with by Russia. Technically they were still Georgians, just Georgians that had tried to break away. So technically, Georgia would have killed 1500 Georgian/Russian citizens.
Except there is nothing "technical" about nationality. It doesn't really work in Eastern europe like it does in the US or Europe, our nations have stood the test of time and have deep roots in our society. These nations are still relatively new (and by nations I specifically mean the states). This problem is endemic in where do you draw the line for nations? What qualifies a nation? Simply a unified ethnicity, language and culture? Is that enough? There are plenty of definitions of when a nation can become a nation but I find each definition to be about as valid as the other.

IamSam
08-10-2008, 04:07 PM
Except there is nothing "technical" about nationality. It doesn't really work in Eastern europe like it does in the US or Europe, our nations have stood the test of time and have deep roots in our society. These nations are still relatively new (and by nations I specifically mean the states). This problem is endemic in where do you draw the line for nations? What qualifies a nation? Simply a unified ethnicity, language and culture? Is that enough? There are plenty of definitions of when a nation can become a nation but I find each definition to be about as valid as the other.

Very true and very wise spoken words. Thank you, I didn't think too in depth on that. I'll answer you a little later after SVU is over.

HeadAroundU
08-10-2008, 05:21 PM
with the goal of setting up a puppet regime.

Oh, P.S. (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080808091149AA3VGTk)
Nah, I would be very disappointed in Russia. Though, now, they want to get rid of their president, but I approve, it was foolish to kill 1500 people = start the war.

"This question has been deleted."

As you can see here, Ossetia is in Georgia. Georgia invaded to take it back, Russia got all indignant and in there space because some Russian citizens live there. It would be like a small part of France rebelled, France invaded it to take it back and there were German citizens there, so Germany invaded France and bombed Paris.
There you have it, bolded. Georgia started the war. Foolish. Suicide. USA would have done the same thing. Georgia had to know that they would get invaded.

It was quite retarded to start the war, Georgia is a potential EU member. And potential NATO member in 2009. The thing I don't understand, why not wait for NATO membership and then kill 1500 people. They would be safe in NATO. Russian invasion would mean the 3rd world war then.

Now, their future is in Russian hands. From my point of view it's good. I don't want Turkey in EU. If Georgia joined EU, then there's the question, why not Turkey? (except religion issue) Both countries belong to The Middle East and they should make their own union. But I wouldn't mind Georgia in EU WITHOUT TURKEY, they are mostly christians.

ps:
Maria, not only you are real life Gallo-Grecian whore from the 19th century, you are also a political prostitute! :D

pps:
Raptor, stop being such a pussy and take a side. You have it pretty nice analysed. You should side with Russia because it was retarded to start the war. It doesn't matter whose region it was.

ppps:
There is a difference between invading Iraq and Georgia. No American citizens were (killed) in Iraq.

pppps:
I don't approve of bombarding civilian targets. Shame on Russia. Just like USA in Serbia.

IamSam
08-10-2008, 05:28 PM
There you have it, bolded. Georgia started the war. Foolish. Suicide. USA would have done the same thing. Georgia had to know that they would get invaded.



Last I checked, invading part of your own property isn't rights for another country to invade you, force you out, and continue bombing you. But what the hell do I know. I'm not from Eastern Europe.

Mota Boy
08-10-2008, 05:29 PM
Off-the-cuff thoughts.

I doubt it'll turn into a wider war, just Russia overthrowing the Georgian government and setting up a puppet regime to the condemnation of the West. First time we're seeing it since the Wall fell. Remember this, kids.

This is a historic move into a new era. A fundamental shift in East-West relations as the first time a power-struggle has turned hot since the Ruskies turned tail in Afghanistan. You seriously think that the US or any other country is going to risk war with Russia for Georgia? When we're already fighting two wars? Fuck no, they're learning just what US backing gets 'em. It's the same with Taiwan - we've pledged to defend them if China attacks, but not if they do anything to provoke it (such as declaring independence). We don't want to get them thinking they're the 51st state or anything, that they can swagger about like they've got the world's strongest/most tied-down military at its back. After everything that's been going on over the past few years, it's mind-bogglingly stupid that Georgia would do anything to give the Bear an excuse.

The Taiwan analogy is an important one. You best believe that China is eying our response with a mind to Taiwan. Keep an eye on China's response to this conflict - that, to me, is going to be much more important and interesting than the response from the West. We know what we're going to do - we're going to whine about diplomacy and talk tough and then quietly regroup and rethink our Russian strategies. Maybe an economic response, but I'd doubt it. With Russia controlling half of Europe's natural gas supply, if there is any attempt at economic sanctions, well... I hope you've got a good sweater collection for the winter. China, now... well, China's been quiet for many years. They try to stay neutral. Play the "poor third world country" line. Played it far too long, and this Olympics is the first act in their ascendancy to the world stage. Whatever it does, it's going to set the tone for China as a global power. If recent history is a guide, it should sit back and refuse to criticize Russia, claiming the conflict isn't any of its business, reaffirming it's belief of non-interference in other countries business, but I doubt recent history will continue to be a good guide for China's actions for much longer. And anyway, come Tuesday it will have to vote on a UN resolution. It'll have to take a stand, even if it's only to officially dodge the issue. And it's being reported in the Chinese media. I've gotta see what Xinhua's saying. We'll have to see if the tiger's still waiting to show its claws.

What we're seeing, though, is a different kind of conflict. The whole world knows the developments. We're going to have video, we have reporters on the ground. Russia's claims that the Georgians are "regrouping" are patently false. The fact that they claim they still haven't received the cease-fire request, the fact that they aren't picking up the phone to hear it is farcial. Hell, it's fucking hilarious. What year do they think this is, 1968? They're version of events used to be the only one. Now it's not even the most credible, by far. They'll be able to control the coverage within Russia, but nowhere else. Russian news sources aren't credible on the world stage, and hardly credible in their own country. Hell, we have Russians here on the BBS right now hearing other opinions. I doubt they're coming away convinced, but the seeds are there, and the facts aren't on their side. Any argument will be harder and harder to make as Russia presses further into taking over the country.

I think this actually favors the US, though. It's a short-term military victory for Russia, but it's going to come at a longer-term expense of soft power. You best believe that NATO member nations aren't thinking of the organization as being diplomatically-centered this weekend. With even Bush talking about plans for drawing down US forces in Iraq, with China in Sudan and Russia in Georgia, we're no longer looking like the world's number one threat, but a hedge against the real bad guys. Especially if we can get Obama into the White House this fall (volunteer, kids, only 85 days until the election!).

The timing for this is fucking horrible, though. Not the Olympics - it's actually almost too perfect that we're seeing the establishment of a new era in Russo-Western relations the very same weekend we're seeing a new ear in Sino-Western ties, but it's horrible that this is taking place during a goddamn presidential campaign in the US. This is going to become fucking politicized as hell. McCain's foreign policy "experience" (the same one that led him to think invading Iraq would be a great idea) is supposedly his strongest point, and with Rove protégés deep into the campaign, I can see McCain coming out and using this against Obama. It's a delicate situation, because we have a Republican administration in the White House, so any shit talk would be criticism of the administration in the run-up to the party convention, but I could easily see some sort of contrast with Obama on vacation in Hawaii while the Russians take back a formerly independent country. Tough talk that will be really, really difficult for Obama to match.

Unfortunately, the largest voting block in the United States is the Fucking Stupid vote. The FS vote is what's leading a majority of Americans to think that drilling offshore is the most vital solution to our energy crisis. It's what voted Republican in '02, and it supports simple, easily-remembered and often-repeated solutions. Tough solutions. Gut solutions. Fucking Stupid solutions. I can see the McCain camp turning this into a FS issue. Finding some small solution to a much broader issue and making that seem to be a cornerstone, a vital answer, that must be dealt with or else you not only Hate America, but you're a pussy.

Welcome to the 21st century, kids. 9/11, the Iraq war, the hullabaloo over militant Islam - that was the opener. The prelude, the flash-bang. You really thought that history had ended, that the slow spread of democracy had ushered us into an era of permanent peace? HA! The world has changed, yes but war? War never changes.

IamSam
08-10-2008, 05:35 PM
Except there is nothing "technical" about nationality. It doesn't really work in Eastern europe like it does in the US or Europe, our nations have stood the test of time and have deep roots in our society. These nations are still relatively new (and by nations I specifically mean the states). This problem is endemic in where do you draw the line for nations? What qualifies a nation? Simply a unified ethnicity, language and culture? Is that enough? There are plenty of definitions of when a nation can become a nation but I find each definition to be about as valid as the other.

I personally think that a nation becomes a nation when the international community recognizes it as such. One country (Russia) doesn't validate it. Especially when they offer Russian citizenship to those people. A better option would be to help the new 'nation' get to its feet somehow other than tempting fate by calling those in the neighbor nations rebellious areas allies and citizens of your country. I'm sorry, but all of this smells of Putin and his constant posturing that the world is against Russia.

jacknife737
08-10-2008, 05:50 PM
That was an interesting read, Mota Boy.

wheelchairman
08-10-2008, 06:54 PM
I personally think that a nation becomes a nation when the international community recognizes it as such. One country (Russia) doesn't validate it. Especially when they offer Russian citizenship to those people. A better option would be to help the new 'nation' get to its feet somehow other than tempting fate by calling those in the neighbor nations rebellious areas allies and citizens of your country. I'm sorry, but all of this smells of Putin and his constant posturing that the world is against Russia.
So in your eyes the South Ossetians don't have a right to their own nation? On the other hand Montonegro does?

The only difference is that Montonegro is recognized, oh and I think it's also a lot smaller. And nationhood is a peculiar thing in Eastern europe, there are dozens of similar nationhood conflicts, and funnily enough, they are all pawns in an East-West struggle.

You therefore say that a nation is only a nation when it gains some political capital in a struggle far bigger than the actual nation?

IamSam
08-10-2008, 07:20 PM
So in your eyes the South Ossetians don't have a right to their own nation? On the other hand Montonegro does?

The only difference is that Montonegro is recognized, oh and I think it's also a lot smaller. And nationhood is a peculiar thing in Eastern europe, there are dozens of similar nationhood conflicts, and funnily enough, they are all pawns in an East-West struggle.

You therefore say that a nation is only a nation when it gains some political capital in a struggle far bigger than the actual nation?


Two separate instances. Montenegro gained independence through a referendum and vote. The entire ordeal was observed by 5 different groups and gained approval by Serbia as well as voting in Serbian districts.

Ossetia's voting was only in Ossetia and did not gain approval from Georgia. While 99% of Ossetians voted for independence, it was not recognized as a legitimate referendum because of the lack of ethnic Georgians.

There is a way to go about getting independence and it wasn't met. Do they deserve their own country? Sure. But do it the right way instead of just breaking away.

Russians sent peacekeepers who are supposed to stay neutral. How are they perceived to be neutral when Russia is very much on the Ossetians side?

Commie
08-10-2008, 09:50 PM
You're wrong... you're fucking wrong:(

Osetia had the right to become a separate republic when the USSR collapsed, this was in Soviet legislative acts. Osetia and Abkhazia should have had a referendum to decide their future, but Georgian government didn't allow this referendum to happen and that is when everything began.

BBS and CNN are telling lies guys, pretty much of the time... I'm telling you. I've heard Berezovsky speaking bullshit about Russia, I've heard WRONG interpretation of Russian words and I saw lots of fucking wrong interviews out of context. And you are telling me that BBC is more credible than any Russian source?

On the morning of 8th of August I saw Georgian officers speaking about attacking South Osetia, I heard them speaking of an artillery bombardment of South Osetia - they were Georgians, is that quite credible for you? Lots of Russian citizens died there, Georgian Government admitted that - for me that is enough, and I believe that should be enough for EVERY country to start a war against anyone else.

Don't mix "nations" and "nationality" (citizenship) - there are lots of nations living in Russia but they are all Russian citizens. And there are Russian citizens living outside of Russia due to the collapse of Soviet Union.

adombomb222
08-10-2008, 10:44 PM
You're wrong... you're fucking wrong:(

Osetia had the right to become a separate republic when the USSR collapsed, this was in Soviet legislative acts. Osetia and Abkhazia should have had a referendum to decide their future, but Georgian government didn't allow this referendum to happen and that is when everything began.

BBS and CNN are telling lies guys, pretty much of the time... I'm telling you. I've heard Berezovsky speaking bullshit about Russia, I've heard WRONG interpretation of Russian words and I saw lots of fucking wrong interviews out of context. And you are telling me that BBC is more credible than any Russian source?

On the morning of 8th of August I saw Georgian officers speaking about attacking South Osetia, I heard them speaking of an artillery bombardment of South Osetia - they were Georgians, is that quite credible for you? Lots of Russian citizens died there, Georgian Government admitted that - for me that is enough, and I believe that should be enough for EVERY country to start a war against anyone else.

Don't mix "nations" and "nationality" (citizenship) - there are lots of nations living in Russia but they are all Russian citizens. And there are Russian citizens living outside of Russia due to the collapse of Soviet Union.

Then Georgians would be considered Russian citizens. But that’s besides the fact that Russian recognize George’s sovereignty, yet has invaded. By all means it’s a civil conflict that the Ossetians and Georgians need to deal with. Russia had no right to invade and bomb cities outside of South Ossetia. Just to invade is an act of war, but to attack civilian and military targets outside the conflict zone, that’s pure madness.

bighead384
08-10-2008, 11:56 PM
That was an interesting read, Mota Boy.

True that. I occasionally read Mota Boy's really long posts...

wheelchairman
08-11-2008, 01:58 AM
You're wrong... you're fucking wrong:(

Osetia had the right to become a separate republic when the USSR collapsed, this was in Soviet legislative acts. Osetia and Abkhazia should have had a referendum to decide their future, but Georgian government didn't allow this referendum to happen and that is when everything began.

BBS and CNN are telling lies guys, pretty much of the time... I'm telling you. I've heard Berezovsky speaking bullshit about Russia, I've heard WRONG interpretation of Russian words and I saw lots of fucking wrong interviews out of context. And you are telling me that BBC is more credible than any Russian source?

On the morning of 8th of August I saw Georgian officers speaking about attacking South Osetia, I heard them speaking of an artillery bombardment of South Osetia - they were Georgians, is that quite credible for you? Lots of Russian citizens died there, Georgian Government admitted that - for me that is enough, and I believe that should be enough for EVERY country to start a war against anyone else.

Don't mix "nations" and "nationality" (citizenship) - there are lots of nations living in Russia but they are all Russian citizens. And there are Russian citizens living outside of Russia due to the collapse of Soviet Union.
How did you prove anyone wrong?

When speaking of nations I didn't make myself clear, I meant when does a nation have the right to be independent.

You're talking about BBC and CNN like we don't already know this, no shit pal. However you seem to be uncritically accepting your sources, you are telling me "you heard this Russian general talk about invading", which btw, is much less credible information for me than CNN or BBC. Who do you think I would believe? Two major established news organizations, or a russian kid on the offspring bbs? And no, it's not that I believe them either, I'm just willing to take more stock in what they say. As I've said 1000x, it's all second hand info.

Free?
08-11-2008, 03:26 AM
I think Commie wasn't opposing you, wheelchairman, but IamSam, adombomb, raptor88 and others who aren't on Russia's side here. To me it looked like a try to make you guys reconsider your points of view, your trust to mass media like BBC and CNN and the fact that all your information can not be 100% trusted. He admitted that Russian media can't be trusted aswell.

It's still unclear to me, who killed those civilians because it seems that what I hear in news and what you guys do are opposite. Was it Russia or Georgia? I can't really trust Russian TV that we have here because it really shows Russia as a savior, but I don't sympathize Georgian government either, and the fact that Georgian president Saakashvili was speaking with Georgians in English is fucking hilarious! Georgians always been quite proud people and most of them don't speak even the basic English, that's for sure, so why the fuck would president choose English to speak with his own Georgian nation? Clearly to be shown in the entire World and to make as many supporters as possible. To me it looked like he didn't care about his people in the first place, but about to tell his truth to the rest of the World.

The Georgian sunken rocket boat. Russian version of that was that several such rocket boats crossed the conditional safety border and were getting close to the Russian fleet, ignored the precautionary fire and one of them got sunken.

About how better was Putin than Yeltsin (MaF's and the Alternate's posts). They just told you that common Russians lived much more comfortable life during Putin's time if you compare how they lived when Yeltsin was president. It wasn't about how Yeltsin was an American ass-licker and Putin's secret dictation or whatever you meant in the first place. Just comparing two presidents' era's from the common people eyes.


Then Georgians would be considered Russian citizens. But that’s besides the fact that Russian recognize George’s sovereignty, yet has invaded. By all means it’s a civil conflict that the Ossetians and Georgians need to deal with. Russia had no right to invade and bomb cities outside of South Ossetia. Just to invade is an act of war, but to attack civilian and military targets outside the conflict zone, that’s pure madness.

No, there are Georgians and there are Russians. Both Russians and Georgians live in Georgia and Ossetia. Since Georgia is an independent country today, most of it's population accepted the citizenship of Georgia, you may officially call them Georgians but it wasn't 100% of population, some people remained as Russian citizens. And those Russian citizens were killed in Ossetia, Russia's version is that Georgia's bombs killed them, Russian citizens, and Russia has to protect every it's citizen regardless of where he lives. That's how I see that.

I'm leaning to Russia's side atm, but I'm still very confused with how different versions of truth sound.

I also don't believe that this conflict will grow into a wide war, I really hope so.

Rooster
08-11-2008, 04:35 AM
pps:
Raptor, stop being such a pussy and take a side. You have it pretty nice analysed. You should side with Russia because it was retarded to start the war. It doesn't matter whose region it was.


Now why the fuck are you insulting me? I won't take anyone's side. If i would take anyone's side, i'd take Ossetians side, because that Russian denying that Georgians are retreating (and thus Russia is prolonging the conflict) and their attacks on civillian targets are just as wrong as Georgian mass murder of Ossetians. However as far as i know the land that Ossetians now live on was Georgian land in the first place. A referendum voting would be good idea, but it should be organised in that way that both sides would respect the result of it - apparently referendum in 1989 was only one-sided and Georgia didn't respect it, and tightened the regime in South Ossetia, which was a move that only made things worse. I understand that US is on Georgian side, but i've got no reason to be. I've got no reason to be on Russian side either. I'll try to find something more about South Ossetia and whose land it originally was (Ossetian or Georgian land, although for now i think it was Georgian), and then i might take one's side. If anyone can provide a good link about the matter (whose land it originaly was and to who it should belong now), please do so.

IamSam
08-11-2008, 08:33 AM
I don't care who your are, Russia has completely stepped across the line now.


TBILISI, Georgia - Russia opened a second front of fighting in Georgia on Monday, sending armored vehicles beyond two breakaway provinces and seizing a military base and police stations in the country's west, the Georgian government and a Russian official said.

The new forays into Georgia — even as Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili on signed a cease-fire pledge — appeared to show Russian determination to subdue the small, U.S.-backed country, which has been pressing for NATO membership.

The latest developments indicate that Russian troops have invaded Georgia proper from the separatist province of Abkhazia while most Georgian forces are locked up in fighting around another breakaway region of South Ossetia.

So they sign a cease-fire and Russia continues to advance. Great. Now we are sending a US envoy. Not going to help. It's not going to stop until all of Georgia is taken over.

Rooster
08-11-2008, 08:44 AM
I don't care who your are, Russia has completely stepped across the line now.



So they sign a cease-fire and Russia continues to advance. Great. Now we are sending a US envoy. Not going to help. It's not going to stop until all of Georgia is taken over.

Where did you find this? I hope that it's an independent news source (i would expect it to be).

I see now that Russia is actually taking advantage of the situation, and not only wanting to help Ossetia and Abkhazia. This is outrageous. Georgia is retreating, wants to cease fire, but Russia is advancing? What deffence is this? The Ossetian conflict doesn't seem the main reason why Russia interfered anymore. Now Russia is making things even worse than before.

edit: i said i hope this was from an independent source, because i don't wanna see any more accusations that we've been brainwashed, so i think that we should provide the sources for our statements also.

IamSam
08-11-2008, 08:56 AM
Where did you find this? I hope that it's an independent news source (i would expect it to be).

I see now that Russia is actually taking advantage of the situation, and not only wanting to help Ossetia and Abkhazia. This is outrageous. Georgia is retreating, wants to cease fire, but Russia is advancing? What deffence is this? The Ossetian conflict doesn't seem the main reason why Russia interfered anymore. Now Russia is making things even worse than before.

It's from the AP. And yes, I agree with you, they are just making it worse.

New stuff...from Putin...makes me giggle.


Russia criticises US for flying Georgian troops back from Iraq
Vladmir Putin says South Ossetia conflict will come to 'logical conclusion' and accuses US of cold war mentality
The Russian prime minister, Vladmir Putin, has criticised the US for flying Georgian troops home from Iraq, claiming the west has mistaken the real aggressor in the conflict over the separatist region of South Ossetia.The former president's comments came shortly after his successor, Dimitry Medvedev, was reported on the Russian news agency Interfax as saying military operations in South Ossetia were nearing their conclusion.

A senior Russian general said there were no plans to move its troops deeper into Georgian territory. But Georgia's defence ministry said a Russian armoured convoy had seized a Georgian military base at Senaki, a town in the country's west. If the report is correct, it indicates Russian troops have entered Georgia beyond the disputed territories, and that they arrived from Georgia's other separatist province, Abkhazia.

Rooster
08-11-2008, 09:06 AM
It's from the AP. And yes, I agree with you, they are just making it worse.

New stuff...from Putin...makes me giggle.

What Putin says makes little sense, because they have advanced deeper into Georgia, which indicates that they are taking advantage of the situation - they know Georgia can't deffend itself against Russian forces.

I found this on BBC (i know, not the best source, but i still think it's more legitimate than Russian sources):


Russians advance in west Georgia
Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia, as the conflict between the two neighbours appears to be broadening.


As the fighting continued in South Ossetia, foreign envoys were pressing for a ceasefire in the conflict.

Each side accuses the other of carrying out atrocities in the region.

Fighting in South Ossetia erupted late last week when Georgia launched an overnight assault on the territory.


Russia, which supports the province's bid for separation, then bombed targets throughout Georgia and moved troops into the region and into Abkhazia.

On Monday EU envoys were attempting to broker an agreement between Tbilisi and Moscow.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili signed an EU-backed ceasefire, but the document was rejected by Moscow.

Leaders from both countries carried on a war of words, with Russia accusing Georgia of genocide, and President Saakashvili hitting back with claims of ethnic cleansing.

And Russia confirmed for the first time it had advanced beyond the borders of Abkhazia.

A Defence official told the Interfax news agency the move was intended to prevent Georgian troops from shelling South Ossetia, and to stop them from regrouping.

As well as launching an attack in Senaki, Russia also moved into the town of Zugdidi, according to Georgian officials.

The Russians issued an ultimatum to Georgian forces to disarm or face attack, and proceeded to occupy government buildings there, the Georgians said.

Fighting also continued in South Ossetia, with local officials accusing Georgia of bombing targets in the capital, Tskhinvali , by helicopter.




Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm

Published: 2008/08/11 15:52:58 GMT

© BBC MMVIII


And by the way, what do you think about Ossetians, i think that after all they would deserve independency, but they should get it in a proper way. If a referendum can't be organised correctly there, should UN do something about it? I know that soil belongs to Georgia, which makes the matter a bit trickier.

edit: i just realised you've already written about if Ossetians deserve their own country and independency. I agree with you.
Moscow said it had launched a raid on the town of Senaki to stop Georgia from attacking Russian forces in South Ossetia, another breakaway region.

IamSam
08-11-2008, 10:07 AM
Newest news:


Russian troops invade Georgia and take the city of Gori

Russian forces overran the strategic Georgian city of Gori today as troops prepared to defend the capital Tbilisi from what one official called a "total onslaught".

Georgian soldiers fled Gori, 17 miles from the border with rebel South Ossetia, in panic and disarray, clinging to the sides of cars and vehicles as they sped out of town. A Georgian armoured personnel carrier was in flames on the street, a victim of the sudden rout.

Seems that Russia just doesn't care. The US is airlifting Georgian troops now...we'll see what the Russian response is. IE, if they shoot down one of the transports.

Rooster
08-11-2008, 10:15 AM
Newest news:



Seems that Russia just doesn't care. The US is airlifting Georgian troops now...we'll see what the Russian response is. IE, if they shoot down one of the transports.


It seems that things are getting worse and worse. Maybe Russia wants to settle it's own regime in Georgia? Because they seem to be advancing deeper and deeper.

IamSam
08-11-2008, 11:10 AM
I kid you not...all that the US would have to do is send the USS Kitty Hawk battle group into the Black Sea. From what I've seen, the main Russian airpower are SU-25 Frogfoot attack aircraft which are completely outclassed by our F/A-18's. I'm guessing they have more...

The battlegroup would help Georgia out a lot...but I really don't want to see only the US get involved with this. I'd much rather see NATO or the UN get involved. Although nothing will probably happen with the UN.

IamSam
08-11-2008, 11:27 AM
And a little bit of a tech note, just to show my nerdiness. If you see pictures of tanks with what look like small blocks all over it I'll explain it. Those blocks are called 'reactive metal.' What they are are two flat pieces of steel with explosive between them. When a shell strikes the top metal plate, the explosive sets off and deflects the shell. Pretty cool stuff.

EDIT: Those might be the newer ceramic kind.

EDIT II: navy.mil usually has a section that tells you where some of the ships are and how many subs are deployed, etc. Yesterday it was up and working (placed the Kitty Hawk in the Atlantic) and now today it has been removed.

Mota Boy
08-11-2008, 11:42 AM
It seems that things are getting worse and worse. Maybe Russia wants to settle it's own regime in Georgia? Because they seem to be advancing deeper and deeper.*ahem*....


My thought is that Russia will invade all of Georgia with the goal of setting up a puppet regime. Will be interesting watching.

IamSam
08-11-2008, 11:47 AM
*ahem*....

*pats Mota Boy on the back*

wheelchairman
08-11-2008, 01:17 PM
It's not a question of "oh my GOD is South Ossetia a nation or not?" Nobody cares.


Well seeing as it's the main political and official contention for Georgia (and a political tool in like dozens of these conflicts) I think it's safe to say that only you have no interest. The rest of the people in this debate are arguing based on the merits of whether or not Ossetia is legitimately Georgian territory. The issue of gas is clearly Russia flexing it's arm, which has also been discussed in depth.

Rooster
08-11-2008, 02:06 PM
*ahem*....

Oh, i read your comment, i only wanted to express my opinion (which happens to be the same as yours, i didn't copy it from you ;)). I hope they won't be able to do so, though.

Rooster
08-11-2008, 02:18 PM
The latest news (found on yahoo) i'll post it in two parts (too long to be in a single post):


Georgia claims Russians have cut country in half By DAVID NOWAK, Associated Press Writer
5 minutes ago



Russian forces seized several towns and a military base deep in western Georgia on Monday, opening a second front in the fighting. Georgia's president said his country had been effectively cut in half with the capture of the main east-west highway near Gori.

Fighting also raged Monday around Tskhinvali, the capital of the separatist province of South Ossetia. Russian warplanes launched new air raids across Georgia, with at least one sending screaming civilians running for cover.

The reported capture of the key Georgian city of Gori and the towns of Senaki, Zugdidi and Kurga came despite a top Russian general's claim earlier Monday that Russia had no plans to enter Georgian territory. By taking Gori, which sits on Georgia's only east-west highway, Russia can cut off eastern Georgia from the country's western Black Sea coast.

"(Russian forces) came to the central route and cut off connections between western and eastern Georgia," Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili told a national security meeting.

The news agency Interfax, however, cited a Russian Defense Ministry official as denying Gori was captured. Attempts to reach Gori residents by telephone late Monday did not go through.

Security Council head Alexander Lomaia said Monday it was not immediately clear if Russian forces would advance on Tbilisi, the Georgian capital. But the Russian Defense Ministry denied such intentions, the Interfax and RIA-Novosti news agencies said.

At Georgia's request, U.N. Security Council in New York called an emergency session for later Monday — the fifth meeting on the fighting in as many days.

The two-front battlefield was a major escalation in the conflict that blew up late Thursday after a Georgian offensive to regain control of the separatist province of South Ossetia. Even as Saakashvili signed a cease-fire pledge Monday with EU mediators, Russia flexed its military muscle and appeared determined to subdue the small U.S. ally that has been pressing for NATO membership.

On Monday afternoon, Russian troops invaded Georgia from the western separatist province of Abkhazia while most Georgian forces were busy with fighting in the central region around South Ossetia.

Russian armored personnel carriers moved into Senaki, a town 20 miles inland from Georgia's Black Sea port of Poti, Lomaia said. Russian news agencies late Monday cited the Defense Ministry as saying the troops had left Senaki "after liquidating the danger," but did not give details.

Russian forces also moved into Zugdidi, near Abkhazia, and seized police stations, while their Abkhazian allies took control of the nearby village of Kurga, according to witnesses and Georgian officials.

Rooster
08-11-2008, 02:20 PM
Here's the second part:


In Zugdidi, an AP reporter saw five or six Russian soldiers posted outside an Interior Ministry building. Several tanks and other armored vehicles were moving through the town but the streets were nearly deserted, with shops, restaurants and banks all shut down.

In the city of Gori, an AP reporter heard artillery fire and Georgian soldiers warned locals to get out because Russian tanks were approaching. Hundreds of terrified residents fled toward Tbilisi using any means of transport they could find. Many stood along the road trying to flag down passing cars.

An APTV film crew saw Georgian tanks and military vehicles speeding along the road from Gori to Tbilisi. Firing began and people ran for cover. A couple of cars could be seen in flames along the side of the road.

Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union. Both provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since fighting to split from Georgia in the early 1990s — and both have close ties with Moscow.

Georgia began an offensive to regain control over South Ossetia late Thursday with heavy shelling and air strikes that ravaged South Ossetia's provincial capital of Tskhinvali.

The Russia response was swift and overpowering — thousands of troops that shelled the Georgians until they fled Tskhinvali on Sunday, and four days of bombing raids across Georgia.

Yet Georgia's pledge of a cease-fire rang hollow Monday. An AP reporter saw a small group of Georgian fighters open fire on a column of Russian and Ossetian military vehicles outside Tskhinvali, triggering a 30-minute battle. The Russians later said all the Georgians were killed.

Another AP reporter was in the village of Tkviavi, 7 1/2 miles south of Tskhinvali inside Georgia, when a bomb from a Russian Sukhoi warplane struck a house. The walls of neighboring buildings fell as screaming residents ran for cover. Eighteen people were wounded.

Georgian artillery fire was heard coming from fields about 200 yards away from the village, perhaps the bomber's target.

Hundreds of Georgian troops headed north Monday along the road toward Tskhinvali, pocked with tank regiments creeping up the highway into South Ossetia. Hundreds of other soldiers traveled via trucks in the opposite direction, towing light artillery weapons.

President Bush and other Western leaders have sharply criticized Russia's military response as disproportionate and say Russia appears to want the Georgian government overthrown. They have also complained that Russian warplanes — buzzing over Georgia since Friday — have bombed Georgian oil sites and factories far from the conflict zone.

The world's seven largest economic powers urged Russia to accept an immediate cease-fire Monday and agree to international mediation. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her colleagues from the Group of Seven leading industrialized nations spoke by telephone and pledged their support for a negotiated solution to the conflict.

"I've expressed my grave concern about the disproportionate response of Russia and that we strongly condemn the bombing outside of South Ossetia," Bush told NBC Sports.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin criticized the United States for viewing Georgia as the victim, instead of the aggressor, and for airlifting Georgian troops back home from Iraq on Sunday.

"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said in Moscow. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds — these leaders must be taken under protection."

The U.S. military was flying Georgian troops back home from Iraq and informed the Russians about the flights ahead of time to avoid mishaps, said one military official said Monday on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak about the subject on the record.

Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman said Monday morning that U.S. officials expect to have all Georgian troops out of Iraq by the end of the day.

Pentagon officials said Monday that U.S. military was assessing the fighting every day to determine whether less than 100 U.S. trainers should be pulled out of the country.

There had been about 130 trainers, including a few dozen civilian contractors, but the civilians had been scheduled to rotate out of the country and did so over the weekend, Whitman said. The remaining uniformed trainers were moved the weekend to what officials believe is a safer location, he said.

Whitman said he didn't know whether the civilian trainers were among the 170 that the State Department said it had evacuated.

Saakashvili signed a cease-fire pledge Monday proposed by the French and Finnish foreign ministers. The EU envoys headed to Moscow to try to persuade Russia to accept it.

Saakashvili, however, voiced concern that Russia's true goal was to undermine his pro-Western government. "It's all about the independence and democracy of Georgia," he said.

Saakashvili said Russia has sent 20,000 troops and 500 tanks into Georgia. He said Russian warplanes were bombing roads and bridges, destroying radar systems and targeting Tbilisi's civilian airport. One Russian bombing raid struck the Tbilisi airport area only a half-hour before the EU envoys arrived, he said.

Another hit near key Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, which carries Caspian crude to the West. No supply interruptions have been reported.

Abkhazia's separatists declared Sunday they would push Georgian forces out of the northern part of the Kodori Gorge, the only area of Abkhazia still under Georgian control.

Before invading western Georgia, Russia's deputy chief of General Staff Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn demanded Monday that Georgia disarm its police in Zugdidi, a town just outside Abkhazia. Still he insisted "We are not planning any offensive."

At least 9,000 Russian troops and 350 armored vehicles were in Abkhazia, according to a Russian military commander.

Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said more than 2,000 people have been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, most of them Ossetians with Russian passports. The figures could not be independently confirmed, but refugees who fled Tskhinvali over the weekend said hundreds had been killed.

Many found shelter in the Russian province of North Ossetia.

"The Georgians burned all of our homes," said one elderly woman, as she sat on a bench under a tree with three other white-haired survivors. "The Georgians say it is their land. Where is our land, then?"

___

Associated Press writers Chris Torchia reported from Zugdidi, Georgia; Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili from Tbilisi, Georgia; David Nowak from Gori, Georgia; Douglas Birch from Vladikavkaz, Russia; Jim Heintz, Vladimir Isachenkov and Lynn Berry from Moscow; and Pauline Jelinek from Washington.



All found on Yahoo news, by authors that are written at the bottom.

Rooster
08-11-2008, 03:11 PM
You know, these last news (from my previous two posts) gave me something to think about.

I think we can't deny that Georgia was the agressor - after all they attacked first and killed many innocent Ossetian civilians. Now South Ossetia is supposed to be georgian land, but Ossetians originate from a Sarmatian tribe and moved over Carpaths to what is now Georgia in middle ages. I don't know if the land was Georgian back then, or was originaly Ossetian and later fell under controll of Georgian aristocrats. Anyway, now Georgian army attacked to get back what was supposely theirs, but they shouldn't do so if Ossetians were the original inhabitants of that area. This is still a tricky matter, i couldn't find any better sources about this (just wikipedia, which isn't always correct).

But Russian actions also bother me, because they don't really seem to care much about Ossetians as citizens, from the latest Russian actions it looks like they just want to gain more territory, and they attack Georgian civillians when they shouldn't. If they would care only for South Ossetia's independency, they would send their forces only in that region and not further into Georgia. While i now think that Georgia didn't act properly to attack the region of South Ossetia i do think that they have a full right to deffend themselves with help of THEIR troops that US are transporting back to Georgia.

What bothers me is that no one seems to really care (with no one i mean politicians) any more for people whose homes were burnt in South Ossetia. They just doesn't seem important anymore, they are just used as Russian excuse to invade firther into Georgia. It's like they were pushed onto the side track from what is now a war between Georgia and Russia.

wheelchairman
08-11-2008, 04:08 PM
Well yes, that would be typical of inter-interest conflicts. The civilian lives are being used as just a cynical tool.

As for the original inhabitants, isn't it a bit ridiculous to take historical data as the main justification for independence, what about the will of the inhabitants of said land? Or the issue of whether or not it can even be sustainable?

Rooster
08-11-2008, 04:13 PM
Well yes, that would be typical of inter-interest conflicts. The civilian lives are being used as just a cynical tool.

As for the original inhabitants, isn't it a bit ridiculous to take historical data as the main justification for independence, what about the will of the inhabitants of said land? Or the issue of whether or not it can even be sustainable?

Yes, of course it would be important to consider this also, but i am just interested, since i see everywhere that Georgia wanted to deffend THEIR land, i want to know if that Georgian claim is justified, because if the land in fact belonged to Ossetians in the first place, it would add more weight to their will and demand for independency.

MAXTER
08-12-2008, 05:51 AM
Putin Is A Killer Who Wants Only Power.... Fu** You

Free?
08-12-2008, 05:57 AM
Putin Is A Killer Who Wants Only Power.... Fu** You

Looks like a name for a band/song/album :p

selfDemanDeD
08-12-2008, 06:31 AM
I think, people from Poland always hated us :) actually, nobody can tell anything for sure about this war. I don't think, that Russia needs a war, it's healthy for our economics, which is unstable. And I don't understand, why Georgia started this conflict. When I hear about killed civillians, I think that Saakashvili isn't quite sane. Here, in Russia, we have information about 2000+ killed Ossetians...

Rooster
08-12-2008, 06:51 AM
Another update:


Georgia says bombings continue after Russian order

BY MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI, Associated Press Writer
23 minutes ago



Russia ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns and military bases destroyed. More than 2,000 people were reported killed.

Georgian officials insisted that Russia has continued the bombings despite the pledge, but Russia denied that.

Hours before the Russian announcement, Russian forces bombed the crossroads city of Gori and launched an offensive in the part of separatist Abkhazia still under Georgian control, sending in 135 military vehicles — including tanks — and tightening the assault on the beleaguered nation.

Gori was all but deserted late Monday — most remaining residents and Georgian soldiers fled ahead of a feared Russian onslaught.

In Tskhinvali, South Ossetia's provincial capital, the body of a Georgian soldier lay in the street along with debris and shattered glass. A poster hanging nearby showed Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and the slogan "Say yes to peace and stability" as South Ossetian separatist fighters launched rockets at a Georgian plane soaring overhead.

The death toll was expected to rise, for large areas of Georgia were too dangerous for journalists to enter. Tens of thousands of terrified residents have fled the fighting — South Ossetians north to Russia, and Georgians west toward the capital of Tbilisi and the country's Black Sea coast.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said on national television that Georgia had been punished enough for its attack on South Ossetia. Georgia launched an offensive late Thursday to regain control over the separatist Georgian province, which has close ties to Russia.

"The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses. Its military has been disorganized," Medvedev said.

"If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them," he ordered his defense minister at a televised Kremlin meeting.

The British oil company BP shut down one of three Georgian pipelines as a precaution. Georgia sits on a strategic oil pipeline carrying Caspian crude to Western markets bypassing Russia, has long been a source of contention between the West and a resurgent Russia, which is seeking to strengthen its role as the dominant energy supplier to the continent.

Russia's foreign minister called for Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili to resign and Medvedev said Georgia must pull its troops from South Ossetia and Abkhazia — the two Russian-backed breakaway provinces at the heart of the dispute.

More than 2,000 people have been reported killed in the fighting, but the death toll was expected to rise, for large areas of Georgia were too dangerous for journalists to enter. Tens of thousands of terrified residents have fled the fighting — South Ossetians north to Russia, and Georgians west toward the capital of Tbilisi and the country's Black Sea coast.

Russian forces opened a second battlefront in western Georgia on Monday, moving deep into Georgian territory from the separatist province of Abkhazia. They seized a military base in the town of Senaki and occupied police precincts in the town of Zugdidi.

On Tuesday, an Associated Press reporter counted 135 Russian military vehicles — included tanks, armored personnel carriers and three pieces of artillery — driving through Georgia toward Kodori Gorge. The northern part of the gorge is the only part of the separatist region of Abkhazia still held by Georgian forces, but they have come under attack in recent days.

Russian forces opened the second battlefront in western Georgia on Monday, moving deep into Georgian territory from Abkhazia.

Scores of Georgians have fled the area.

"It feels like an annexed country," said Lasha Margiana, the local administrator in one of the villages in Kodori.

People said that many homes were damaged by shelling and that the entire population of the gorge, some 3,000 people, had left.

"We left when the shelling started, we don't have food," said Madlena Guarmiani, one of the refugees, who said they had no time to pack food or belongings.

In central Georgia, Russian troops advanced into Georgia from the other separatist province, South Ossetia, taking positions near Gori on the main east-west highway as terrified civilians. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said his country had effectively been cut in half.

Gori's post office and university were still burning Tuesday, said Georgian officials, who claimed six died in the overnight bombing. RTL television news, a Dutch station, reported that at least five people were killed when Russian warplanes bombed Gori, including its cameraman.

Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union. South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since fighting to split from Georgia in the early 1990s.

Both separatist provinces are backed by Russia. Russian officials had given signals that the fighting could pave the way for them to be absorbed into Russia.

Saakashvili on Tuesday made plans to shed a vestige of Soviet times, saying he has asked Parliament to take action to leave the Russia-dominated alliance of ex-Soviet nations called the Commonwealth of Independent States.

The situation in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, remained tense Tuesday as sporadic fighting and artillery duels continued, but the city was in the control of Russian army and South Ossetian forces.

In the villages once populated by ethnic Georgians on the outskirts of Tskhinvali, South Ossetian fighters reportedly set fire to Georgian houses, and carried out searches in the villages.

As he started talks with French President Nicolas Sarkozy, Medvedev said Georgia must pull its troops from the breakaway regions and pledge not to use force again to solve the conflict.

The U.N. and NATO had called meetings Tuesday to deal with the conflict, which quickly developed into an East-West crisis that raised fears in former Soviet bloc nations of Eastern Europe.

Poland's president and the leaders of four ex-Soviet republics headed to Georgia for a meeting with Saakashvili to send a signal of solidarity with Tbilisi.

"We may say that the Russian state has once again shown its face, its true face," said Poland's Lech Kaczynski, who will be joined by counterparts from Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine and Latvia.

But he said it was "good news" that Medvedev ordered a halt to military action.

Russian deputy chief of General Staff Anatoly Nogovitsyn dismissed Georgian reports that Russian warplanes Tuesday again bombed a pipeline carrying crude to the West. He said Russian planes never targeted the pipeline and accused Georgia of spreading false reports in order to rally anti-Russian sentiments in the West.

BP also said the company had no reports of pipeline damage but said the company has shut down the 90,000-barrel-a-day oil pipeline running through Georgia's center from Baku on the Caspian Sea to Supsa on the Black Sea coast.

Nogovitsyn said Russian troops were not in Gori but confirmed they have taken control of an airport in Senaki. Senaki is 30 miles east of Abkhazia.

President Bush had demanded Monday that Russia end a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in Georgia, agree to an immediate cease-fire and accept international mediation.

"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," Bush said in a televised statement from the White House.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said more than 2,000 people have been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, most of them Ossetians with Russian passports.

___

Associated Press writers Chris Torchia reported from Zugdidi, Georgia; Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili from Tbilisi, Georgia; David Nowak from Gori, Georgia; Douglas Birch from Vladikavkaz, Russia; Jim Heintz, Vladimir Isachenkov and Lynn Berry from Moscow; and Pauline Jelinek from Washington.

the_GoDdEsS
08-12-2008, 07:26 AM
Headlines are a dangerous thing, I can't stand how they make people believe things. Sometimes you read something completely different inside the article.

Yes, Medvedev ordered a halt to the military operation but the media seems to forget to mention that it also implies that they may fight back if they are being attacked.

Anyways, the Georgians are claiming they are still being bombed.


In Georgia, a series of explosions in the town of Gori on Tuesday killed at least five civilians, a Reuters correspondent said. An analysis of television footage suggested the blasts were caused by mortars, although it was not clear who fired.
Source: Reuters
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Georgia/idUSL768040420080812?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0


Before Russia said it had ceased military action, at least five civilians were killed in Gori, which was bombarded by airstrikes, although the Russian general staff denied it was being targeted.

Reports from the scene suggested explosions may have been caused by mortar fire and not by bombs dropped by jets, as witnesses first thought.
Source: Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/12/georgia.russia5

Mota Boy
08-12-2008, 07:38 AM
Yes, Medvedev ordered a halt to the military operation...Tee hee....

IamSam
08-12-2008, 10:11 AM
Yes, Medvedev ordered a halt to the military operation but the media seems to forget to mention that it also implies that they may fight back if they are being attacked.


LMAO. "Medvedev ordered a halt to military operation" hahahaha...Oh Putin has him so whipped it isn't even funny. (Even though I'm laughing)

Free?
08-12-2008, 12:25 PM
People, do you really believe that right after such big announcement of ceasing fire by Russian president, Russians would do something like another bombing? It would be just an obvious proof that president's word doesn't mean shit, they aren't that ridiculously simple and stupid.

IamSam
08-12-2008, 05:28 PM
People, do you really believe that right after such big announcement of ceasing fire by Russian president, Russians would do something like another bombing? It would be just an obvious proof that president's word doesn't mean shit, they aren't that ridiculously simple and stupid.

Really? Really? They aren't that ridiculously simple and stupid? I guess not...you know...other than the fact they just invaded a sovereign nation.

Hombre
08-12-2008, 08:07 PM
It is VERY funny to read posts about angry Russia,that attacked helpless Georgia.
Russia doesn't kill civilians,but Georgia kill 1500+ people.
Saakashvili start genocide Ossetians people.
Russia have RIGHT to be peacemaker in this region.
P.S.
People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : http://www.1tvrus.com/ , http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , http://www.rian.ru/ , http://www.vesti.ru/news , http://news.ntv.ru/ , http://www.ren-tv.com/ , http://www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell
all tell is not present to WAR!!!

IamSam
08-12-2008, 08:40 PM
It is VERY funny to read posts about angry Russia,that attacked helpless Georgia.
Russia doesn't kill civilians,but Georgia kill 1500+ people.
Saakashvili start genocide Ossetians people.
Russia have RIGHT to be peacemaker in this region.
P.S.
People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : http://www.1tvrus.com/ , http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , http://www.rian.ru/ , http://www.vesti.ru/news , http://news.ntv.ru/ , http://www.ren-tv.com/ , http://www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell
all tell is not present to WAR!!!

Hey buddy...when every major news organization outside of Russia is running footage of Russian T-80 tanks rolling into Gori I call that an invasion.

jacknife737
08-12-2008, 09:16 PM
People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : http://www.1tvrus.com/ , http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , http://www.rian.ru/ , http://www.vesti.ru/news , http://news.ntv.ru/ , http://www.ren-tv.com/ , http://www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell
all tell is not present to WAR!!!

So 100% of foreign news footage has been somehow manipulated now? Russian armor has been sweeping into sovereign Georgian territory, and despite claims of a ceasefire, several news agencies are still reporting that Russian forces continue to bomb enemy positions. This blind nationalism is getting to be more then a little disturbing.

P.S. Using non-Russian, sources would be best when attempting to prove a point.

Hypno Toad
08-12-2008, 11:39 PM
I never realized it until now, but Russia has been in constant war and struggle for the last 100 years.

1905-1917 Russian revolution
1914-1918 World War 1
1918-1938 steady soviet expansion
1938-1945 World War 2
1950-1991 Cold war
1979-1989 Soviet Invasion Afghanistan
1994-1996 First Chechen War
1998-Present Second Chechen war (Georgian and Chechen insurgents fighting still in the Caucasus)
2008-Unknown Invasion of Georgia

What will probably happen to Georgia, I call it Groznyfication:

(check out that spankin silver watch, bet he snatched it off an old man's corpse in a ditch)

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6138/30grozny2650bv9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


I spent a few days sifting through raw video footage and pictures from the chechen war for a project. I couldn't sleep for 2 days (I am not kidding) That war was one of the saddest and most depressing wars to have happened in a very long time.


THe Russian Government will only be happy when it can reduce every other country on the planet to a bigger smelly/shithole/armpit than it.

Putin fits my definition of evil: Somebody who knows they are doing wrong and horrible things, but enjoys it. Filthy ex spy.

lexs
08-13-2008, 01:06 AM
...
P.S. Using non-Russian, sources would be best when attempting to prove a point.

I suppose it would be a mistake; just compare yourself. This is BBC page for russians:

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-res&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2Fhi%2Frussian%2 Finternational%2Fnewsid_7548000%2F7548983.stm&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

and this one for other world: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551576.stm

Look how BBC cares about european and american brains!

Free?
08-13-2008, 01:35 AM
Really? Really? They aren't that ridiculously simple and stupid? I guess not...you know...other than the fact they just invaded a sovereign nation.

Here in Latvia we have both Russian and Latvian TVs. So I can watch Latvian one and be informed that Russia started the invasion and killed those civilians, then I can switch to Russian channel and hear exactly opposite news, about Georgia started attacks on South Ossetia and killed 1500 people there that were Russian citizens so Russia had no other choice but to send army to protect them.

In any case there, Russia had at least some excuse - protecting it's citizens.

In case of bombing right after cease fire announcement there are no any excuses and it looks like a provocation made up by Georgians to blame Russian army to me, I might be wrong.

But, anyhow, as I said, It's ridiculous how news sources say opposite and I can't really trust any of them. And I wouldn't be sure of your truth if I was in your place either.

reaperDAY
08-13-2008, 03:09 AM
I got tired of all the dirt that my country received from the USA and it's slaves like Latvia and Georgia. Well, who cares if the USA bombs Iraq without any reliable reason when Russian forces started defending the country they swore to defend. Soldiers of the Georgian army are nazis trained by the USA who use the same methods as Hitler in 1939-45 like burning many citizens of both Abhasia and South Osetia alive. Their president should be punished like the nazis were or we'll do it ourselves

Hombre
08-13-2008, 03:13 AM
There is double standarts politics in USA:when Saddam Hussein destroy villages,he was hanged,but when Saakashvili destroy villages and kill more than 1500 people USA protect him.

Hombre
08-13-2008, 03:16 AM
LMAO. "Medvedev ordered a halt to military operation" hahahaha...Oh Putin has him so whipped it isn't even funny. (Even though I'm laughing)

But it is very funny when Bush called Australian minister as "Austrian":)

wheelchairman
08-13-2008, 03:18 AM
So apparently the Russian media is explaining that Russia is only doing it's patriotic duty to fight the American-Slave state of Nazi-Georgia.

Superdope
08-13-2008, 04:30 AM
So apparently the Russian media is explaining that Russia is only doing it's patriotic duty to fight the American-Slave state of Nazi-Georgia.

Well, duh... Captain Obvious!

Rooster
08-13-2008, 04:40 AM
I heard on the news in my country today that both sides have ceased fire now (but it is unknown for how long), and that European union considers sending some of our troops (including my country's) to the South Ossetian territory to help keep peace, plus collecting resources for helping the victims.

selfDemanDeD
08-13-2008, 07:28 AM
It is pitiful, but obvious, that despite there's no U.S.S.R. now, people in USA are taught to dislike Russia and people in Russia are taught to dislike USA (even it is not stated officially). So, everybody, use your head _before_ believing any news you heard. People of USA and Russia are human beings... but their politicians are not.

Lithuanian Offspring
08-13-2008, 10:29 AM
It is VERY funny to read posts about angry Russia,that attacked helpless Georgia.
Russia doesn't kill civilians,but Georgia kill 1500+ people.
Saakashvili start genocide Ossetians people.
Russia have RIGHT to be peacemaker in this region.
P.S.
People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : http://www.1tvrus.com/ , http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , http://www.rian.ru/ , http://www.vesti.ru/news , http://news.ntv.ru/ , http://www.ren-tv.com/ , http://www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell
all tell is not present to WAR!!!

One thing about your great sources is that they are RUSSIAN. Obviously very biased towards the Russian side. Why would Georgians attack there own people? They're trying to reclaim their territory and Russia doesn't want that. Russia will end up invading Georgia.. Don't be that bought by your government's propaganda.

Hypno Toad
08-13-2008, 11:02 AM
I heard on the news in my country today that both sides have ceased fire now (but it is unknown for how long), and that European union considers sending some of our troops (including my country's) to the South Ossetian territory to help keep peace, plus collecting resources for helping the victims.

Ceasefire in Russian means they are using the spentnaz now. So they are still killing people, you just don't hear the gunshots.

It's a touchy situation, and the Russians are still hostile towards any NATO or NATO related (EU) groups. You wouldn't want to start world war 3, by Russians or EU "accidentally" killing some troops from the other side.

Lithuanian Offspring
08-13-2008, 11:39 AM
I got tired of all the dirt that my country received from the USA and it's slaves like Latvia and Georgia. Well, who cares if the USA bombs Iraq without any reliable reason when Russian forces started defending the country they swore to defend. Soldiers of the Georgian army are nazis trained by the USA who use the same methods as Hitler in 1939-45 like burning many citizens of both Abhasia and South Osetia alive. Their president should be punished like the nazis were or we'll do it ourselves

You're an idiot. Putin is the Hitler of our generation, and being Russian you should know that.

Hypno Toad
08-13-2008, 11:56 AM
You're an idiot. Putin is the Hitler of our generation, and being Russian you should know that.

Agreed.

Never, EVER have a president that belonged to a spy agency. That is just bad news right there. You are talking about a man who has probably tortured innocent people before, and trust me, you have to enjoy that to do it.

I mean, this guy condoned the actions taken place in Chechnya, he is an evil person. You can give hitler one thing, he wasn't evil, maybe extremely mislead, but not evil.

What Hitler did was what he thought at heart to be right, I am sure Putin knows what he is doing is horrible, but yet he still does it. That makes you evil.


I think what I am seeing with Russia is it trying to become a superpower once again. Russia is now demolishing it's neighbors, and taking them over. and Putin is inches short of being a dictator, I can't see anything good coming from Russia anytime soon. Best thing for The west, and Russia's neighbors to do right now would be to stand their ground, but not provoke. But I am just an average Joe, so I will just wait and see what happens. Personally I think world war 3 is long overdue. With many countries going into recession, it is starting to look like we are going down the same road that we went down in the 1930's

lexs
08-13-2008, 01:06 PM
One thing about your great sources is that they are RUSSIAN. Obviously very biased towards the Russian side. Why would Georgians attack there own people? They're trying to reclaim their territory and Russia doesn't want that. Russia will end up invading Georgia.. Don't be that bought by your government's propaganda.

Read bbc links I gave before. BBC shows only that you want to see. So compare that they tell while wanna looks like truthful guys; it was translated using babelfish service.

But as for me I have a clue why "Georgians attack there own people". There is no problem if there is no people. You may unite South and North Osetia. Or you may wipe away one of them. Still have no idea that Georgians choose?

The shit is that mass media slept well until Saakashvili killed people house by house round the clock and wake up to cry as far as first russians enter Osetia to stop it down.

A f*d little boy caught younger one and f**s him but an old neighbor tippler stops him and rips out. "Aaaaaahhh!!! He kills me! Heeeeelp!! Heeeelp!!!" our hero sings. Shit.

IamSam
08-13-2008, 01:06 PM
I got tired of all the dirt that my country received from the USA and it's slaves like Latvia and Georgia. Well, who cares if the USA bombs Iraq without any reliable reason when Russian forces started defending the country they swore to defend. Soldiers of the Georgian army are nazis trained by the USA who use the same methods as Hitler in 1939-45 like burning many citizens of both Abhasia and South Osetia alive. Their president should be punished like the nazis were or we'll do it ourselves

Really? Hitler? Nazi's? If I were you I'd check out Hitler and the annexation of Austria. That's what Russia is essentially doing right now.

lexs
08-13-2008, 01:20 PM
Really? Hitler? Nazi's? If I were you I'd check out Hitler and the annexation of Austria. That's what Russia is essentially doing right now.

Aha. And austrians bring him flowers as he enter Vienna. Let s reread our history.
But we might skip Iraq 'couse it has not completed yet :mad:

Rooster
08-13-2008, 01:43 PM
Godwin's law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Rooster
08-13-2008, 02:04 PM
News update (source: Associated Press)


Aug 13, 4:13 PM EDT

US plans aid to Georgia as Russia rolls into city

By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA and MATTI FRIEDMAN
Associated Press Writer

OUTSIDE GORI, Georgia (AP) -- Russian troops and paramilitaries rolled into the strategic Georgian city of Gori on Wednesday, apparently violating a truce designed to end the conflict that has uprooted tens of thousands and scarred the Georgian landscape.

In Washington, President Bush said the United States planned a massive humanitarian effort involving American ships and aircraft, including a C-17 military cargo plane loaded with supplies that landed on Wednesday.

Bush said he was sending in Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to deal with the crisis, and she called on Russia to halt military operations in Georgia. "I have heard the Russian president say that his military operations are over. I am saying it is time for the Russian president to be true to his word," Rice said.

Georgian officials said Gori, a central hub on Georgia's main east-west highway, was looted and bombed by the Russians before they left later in the day and camped nearby.

Moscow denied the accusations, but it appeared to be on a technicality: a BBC reporter in Gori reported that Russians tanks were in the streets as their South Ossetian separatist allies seized Georgian cars, looted Georgian homes and then set some homes ablaze.

"Russia has treacherously broken its word," Georgia's Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia said Wednesday in Tbilisi, the capital.

An AP reporter saw dozens of trucks and armored vehicles leaving Gori, roaring southeast. Soldiers waved at journalists and one soldier jokingly shouted to a photographer: "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi!"

But the convoy turned north and left the highway about an hour's drive from the Georgian capital, and set up camp a mile off the road. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Russian troops were near Gori to secure weapons left behind by the Georgians.

To the west, Russian-backed Abkhazian separatists pushed Georgian troops out of Abkhazia and even moved into Georgian territory itself, defiantly planting a flag over the Inguri River and laughing that retreating Georgians had received "American training in running away."

The developments came less than 12 hours after Georgia's president said he accepted a cease-fire plan brokered by France. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Tuesday that Russia was halting military action because Georgia had paid enough for its attack last Thursday on South Ossetia.

Bush said he was skeptical that Moscow was honoring the cease-fire.

"To begin to repair the damage to its relations with the United States, Europe and other nations and to begin restoring its place in the world, Russia must keep its word and act to end this crisis," Bush said.

The EU peace plan calls for both sides to retreat to the positions they held prior to the outbreak of fighting late Thursday. That phrasing apparently would allow Georgian forces to return to the positions they held in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and clearly obliges Russia to leave all parts of Georgia except South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili criticized Western nations for failing to help Georgia, a U.S. ally that has been seeking NATO membership.

"I feel that they are partly to blame," he said Wednesday. "Not only those who commit atrocities are responsible ... but so are those who fail to react. In a way, Russians are fighting a proxy war with the West through us."

Russian at first denied that tanks were even in Gori but video footage proved otherwise.

About 50 Russian tanks entered Gori in the morning, according to Lomaia. The city of 50,000 lies 15 miles south of South Ossetia, where much of the fighting has taken place.

Some of the Russian units that later left to camp outside the city were camouflaged with foliage. The convoy was mainly support vehicles, including ambulances, although there were a few heavy cannons. There were about 100 combat troops and another 100 medics, drivers and other support personnel.

About six miles away from the camp, about 80 well-equipped Georgian soldiers were forming what appeared to be a new frontline, armed with pistols, shoulder-launched anti-tank rockets and Kalashnikovs.

Sporadic clashes continued in South Ossetia where Russians responded to Georgian snipers.

Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union. Russia has handed out passports to most in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and stationed peacekeepers in both regions since the early 1990s. Georgia wants the Russian peacekeepers out, but Medvedev has insisted they stay.

Russia's Lavrov lashed back after Bush's comments Wednesday, calling Georgia's leadership "a special project of the United States. And we understand that the United States is worried about its project."

He was quoted by Russian news agencies as saying that at some point, the United States will have to choose: "either support for a virtual project, or real partnership on issues that really demand collective action," referring to U.S. cooperation with Russia in the U.N. Security Council on Iran and other world tension spots.

Meanwhile, Georgia's security chief also said Russian forces targeted three Georgian Coast Guard boats in the Black Sea port of Poti, and Georgian television showed boats ablaze in the harbor.

Bush expressed concern that Russian forces have entered and taken positions in Poti, that Russian armored vehicles are blocking access to that port, and that Russia is blowing up Georgian vessels.

Lavrov denied that Russian troops were anywhere near the city.

In the west, Georgian troops acknowledged Wednesday they had completely pulled out of a small section of Abkhazia they had controlled.

"This is Abkhazian land," one separatist told an AP reporter over the Inguri River, saying they were laying claim to historical Abkhazian territory.

The fighters had moved across a thin slice of land dotted with Georgian villages.

"The border has been along this river for 1,000 years," separatist official Ruslan Kishmaria told the AP on Wednesday. He said Georgia would have to accept the new border.

Nogovitsyn admitted Wednesday that Russian peacekeepers had disarmed Georgian troops in Kodori - the same peacekeepers that Georgia wants withdrawn.

Abkhazia lies close to the heart of many Russians. Its Black Sea coast was a favorite vacation spot in Soviet times and the province is just down the coast from Sochi, the Russian resort that will host the 2014 Olympics.

For several days, Russian troops held the western town of Zugdidi near Abkhazia, controlling the region's main highway. An AP reporter saw a convoy of 13 Russian tanks and armored personnel carriers in Zugdidi's outskirts Wednesday. Later in the day, Georgian officials said the Russians pulled out of Zugdidi.

"They just don't want freedom, and that's why they want to stamp on Georgia and destroy it," he declared to thousands at a jam-packed square in Tbilisi.

Leaders of five former Soviet bloc states - Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Ukraine - also appeared at the rally and spoke out against Russian domination.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko issued a decree Wednesday saying that Russian navy ships deployed to the Georgian coast will need authorization to return to the navy base Russia leases from Ukraine.

The World Food Program sent 34 tons of high-energy biscuits Wednesday help the tens of thousands uprooted by the fighting.

Russia has accused Georgia of killing more than 2,000 people, mostly civilians, in South Ossetia. The claim couldn't be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the area over the weekend said hundreds had died.

Georgia says at least 175 Georgians have died in Russian air and ground attacks.

The Russia-Georgia dispute also reached the international courts, with the Georgian security council saying it had sued Russia for alleged ethnic cleansing.

The rights group Human Rights Watch said Wednesday it has witnessed South Ossetian fighters looting ethnic Georgians' houses and has recorded multiple accounts of Georgian militias intimidating ethnic Ossetians. The report was important independent confirmation of the claims by each side in the Russia-Georgia conflict.

At the Beijing Olympics, Georgian women rallied Wednesday to beat their Russian counterparts in beach volleyball, the first head-to-head clash of the two nations.

"Russia and Georgia are actually friends. People are friends," said the Georgian beach volleyball team leader, Levan Akhtulediani. "But you know, it's not, in the 21st century, to bomb a neighbor country, it's not a good idea."

"I say once again, its better to compete on the field rather than outside the field," he added.

---

Associated Press writers Christopher Torchia reported from Zugdidi, Georgia, and near the Kodori Gorge; Matti Friedman and Sergei Grits from outside Gori, Georgia; and Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili and David Nowak from Tbilisi, Georgia. Jim Heintz, Vladimir Isachenkov, Lynn Berry and Angela Charlton in Moscow and Pauline Jelinek and Matthew Lee in Washington also contributed to this report.

© 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy.

So much about ceasing fire. How long did it last again?

IamSam
08-13-2008, 02:53 PM
Aha. And austrians bring him flowers as he enter Vienna. Let s reread our history.
But we might skip Iraq 'couse it has not completed yet :mad:

Iraq is different. The US invaded on false pretenses, true, but diplomacy had limitedly been tried. Russia invaded for no logical reason, smashed the Georgian army, and then continued to invade even though they declared a cease fire.

Slightly different than the US full born invasion/regime change. Everyone knew our intentions. No one knew Russia's.

tranquill
08-13-2008, 03:41 PM
Here the news: http://samsonblinded.org/news/government-israeli-arms-sales-to-georgia-may-irritate-russia-2647 *Israelis supply weapons to Georgia!

IamSam
08-13-2008, 04:30 PM
Here the news: http://samsonblinded.org/news/government-israeli-arms-sales-to-georgia-may-irritate-russia-2647 *Israelis supply weapons to Georgia!

As does the United States and Russia. Your point?

EDIT: Seeing that this is my 1500th post, I better make it count.

Point 1: US and Iraq vs. Russia and Georgia

The US went into Iraq based on faulty information. The one area that I will stand up for in the Iraq war is that Saddam was a horrible leader and deserved what he got. Iraq has done well so far (besides the violence) and actually came out with a huge profit/surplus this year. You also have to look at the US record for going to war the last part of this century. The US has clung to the Truman doctrine which states that the US should "support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures." Vietnam, Grenada, Libya, the First Persian Gulf War, Kosovo, and the current Iraq war can be tied to this. America was not alone at Grenada, Kosovo, and both Iraq wars. Kosovo had a large NATO following, Grenada had the support of other island nations, the first Iraq war had a large multinational coalition, the second one much smaller due to the lack of diplomacy by the Bush administration.

So what is the difference between the US in Iraq and Russia in Georgia?

1. Everyone and their dog knew the US was going to invade Iraq and institute a regime change.
2. Russia had no real reason to invade. Essentially, Georgia was smacked for invading themselves such as Ossetia isn't its own country.
3. The US never violated peace/cease fire agreements. Russia has ignored the cease fire agreements by continuing the invasion past Ossetia and sacking Gori.

Point 2: Russian media sources are ungodly biased

Here are some headlines from Pravda:

USA shows its meanness again as Russia mourns victims of genocide lol meanness


Georgia gets the jitters as Russia outlines its requirements
USA approves Georgia’s aggression against South Ossetia and Russia
Putin: Georgia’s actions are criminal, whereas Russia’s actions are absolutely legitimate
War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA


Now from the Associated Press an article that has eyewitnesses to events unfolding. Biased?


Russia defies truce with Georgia; US sending aid

By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA and MATTI FRIEDMAN
Associated Press Writer

OUTSIDE GORI, Georgia (AP) -- A Russian military convoy defied a cease-fire agreement Wednesday and rolled through a strategically important city in the former Soviet republic of Georgia, which claimed fresh looting and bombing by the Russians and their allies.

President Bush said a massive U.S. aid package was on the way for tens of thousands uprooted in the conflict and demanded Russia "keep its word and act to end this crisis."

"The United States stands with the democratically elected government of Georgia and insists that the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia be respected," Bush said sternly in Washington.

One day after the Kremlin and its smaller neighbor agreed to a French-brokered cease-fire to end the dispute over two pro-Russian breakaway territories, the pact appeared fragile at best.

An Associated Press reporter saw dozens of Russian trucks and armored vehicles leaving the city of Gori, some 20 miles south of the separatist region of South Ossetia and home of a key highway that divides Georgia in two, and moving deeper into Georgia.

Soldiers waved at journalists and one jokingly shouted, "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi." The convoy roared southeast, toward the Georgian capital, but then turned north and set up camp about an hour's drive away from it.

Georgian officials said the Russians had looted and bombed Gori before they left. Moscow denied the accusation, but it appeared to be on a technicality: A BBC reporter in Gori said Russian tanks were in the streets while their South Ossetian allies seized cars, looted homes and set houses on fire.

As confusion reigned on the first day of the cease-fire agreement, Bush called a Rose Garden speech to express concern about reports the Russians were already breaking it.

He said he was sending Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice first to France and then to Tbilisi to reinforce U.S. efforts to "rally the world in defense of a free Georgia."

For her part, Rice said: "This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it. Things have changed."

The president said a huge U.S. aid effort was under way, including American naval forces and C-17 military cargo planes, to get clothes, blankets, medicine and other supplies to refugees. The European Union agreed to consider deploying European peacekeeping monitors to the area.

Besides the hundreds killed since hostilities broke out last week, a United Nations agency estimates 100,000 Georgians may have been uprooted. A spokesman said the U.N. refugee agency was helping evacuate about 1,500 people fleeing the Kodori Gorge in the breakaway province of Abkhazia alone on Wednesday.

Hypno Toad
08-13-2008, 05:20 PM
Czarist Russia. The Ruskies love the iron hand. They love it rough.

I lol'ed. Sounds funny :P


I don't think it is the Russian people themselves that like the iron fist ruler, but the ruler themselves. I think Russians can take a bit more abuse than other nationalities, so maybe they don't react as harsh to poor leadership as others.

selfDemanDeD
08-13-2008, 07:52 PM
Never thought that you people hate us so much :(

IamSam
08-13-2008, 07:53 PM
Never thought that you people hate us so much :(

I don't hate Russians. I hate Putin. Putin is single handedly ruining your country, but you are all too blind to see it. You're like Germany 1938.

selfDemanDeD
08-13-2008, 08:03 PM
Oh, and you see it from USA, of course? Even if Putin plans some big war (but I'm quite sure, that he don't, just because Russia can't afford one financially), he's gonna go suck with that, because our folk won't agree (I hope). As I know, it was Saakashvili to start this conflict, so I'd like to have him dead, 'cause he is the source of all this mess. I don't care whoever then set's up a puppet government there (USA or Russia), I don't think that such a government would ruin Georgia, just hope it'll be quite in that place.

And, for you to know - it was Putin, actually, who stopped finally the war in Chechnya by making Kadyrov it's President.

Hombre
08-13-2008, 08:05 PM
I don't hate Russians. I hate Putin. Putin is single handedly ruining your country, but you are all too blind to see it. You're like Germany 1938.
I don't think,that Putin is the best guy in the world,but he is not asshole(my opinion).I don' think that it is bad when president is ex spy agent(for my country!)Russia is FUCKING BIG and it is impossible to rule without "iron hand."

Hypno Toad
08-13-2008, 08:05 PM
Never thought that you people hate us so much :(

Yeah, I love Russians. But you guys sure make shitty leaders XD

Canada is fucking big to (but population is not dense) And so is the US. We don't need an iron fist.

selfDemanDeD
08-13-2008, 08:08 PM
Well, same to you :) from my point of view, Bush is as shitty, as Putin from yours. And Russia is bigger than USA + Canada together, if you didn't know. I don't say, that we need an iron fist, but some people in Russia do.

Hypno Toad
08-13-2008, 08:09 PM
And, for you to know - it was Putin, actually, who stopped finally the war in Chechnya by making Kadyrov it's President.

No, what happened was there was a terrorist attack in Russia, the terrorists were form an unknown group, Russia point at Chechnya, and then it all began again.

Another 50000 innocent people killed, and another 4000 or so Russian servicemen. And no, chechnya has not been made independent. If that was the case, Putin would have stayed out.



Also, I am Canadian, we don't have bush ;) We have Stephen Harper, a man with bushes hand up his ass. But at least we are not in iraq, *cough* tony blair.

Also: http://www.mapsofindia.com/worldmap/world-map.gif

Once your each a certain point, it doesn't matter how big your country is. Canada has provinces trying to split off. Because everything is so fk'ing far away. The country is big, it doesn't matter which one is bigger.

Besides, what are the people way off in Siberia gonna pull? Are they going to break some ice?

selfDemanDeD
08-13-2008, 08:12 PM
I didn't say, that Chechnya was made independent. And I said "finally". That means - after the second mess up. Nobody's perfect, I also don't think there was need of the second raid.

selfDemanDeD
08-13-2008, 08:17 PM
Just for you to know - that are chechen troops that stay now in Georgia - on their own will. Kadyrov said himself some days before that they "have got 10000 troops trained, know how to bring order to South Ossetia and wouldn't allow to mess up with Russia". That's what he said to our newspapers etc.

Hypno Toad
08-13-2008, 08:24 PM
No offense, but Russia isn't renowned for it's free media. What you are told is what the government allows you to hear, or more likely wants you to hear.

selfDemanDeD
08-13-2008, 08:41 PM
Actually, I don't think, that your media is free too. Both of us may be wrong. Do you agree with that?

IamSam
08-13-2008, 08:45 PM
Well, same to you :) from my point of view, Bush is as shitty, as Putin from yours. And Russia is bigger than USA + Canada together, if you didn't know. I don't say, that we need an iron fist, but some people in Russia do.

Dude. Insulting Bush is child's play. I hate Bush too, however Putin is far worse when it comes to controlling the country.

Hypno Toad
08-13-2008, 11:16 PM
Actually, I don't think, that your media is free too. Both of us may be wrong. Do you agree with that?

Possible.

It could just be that our governments are just as corrupt, but are better at hiding it :)

I know for a fact that the montreal/quebec government is very corrupt, but not in the killing people way.


Our media is free, though. You can heavily criticize and insult the government and don't have to worry about getting FSB (or canada's equivalent, not sure we have one) busting down your door.


But for example, in Russia a reporter was criticizing Putin and the Chechen war. A couple weeks later, she was found shot dead, killed by a standard (but 2003 replaced) 9x18 makarov, which is still used by many russian police forces, and government agencies.

jacknife737
08-13-2008, 11:21 PM
Dude. Insulting Bush is child's play. I hate Bush too, however Putin is far worse when it comes to controlling the country.

To be honest though, I can see why the average Russian has a positive view of Putin. Yes he’s very manipulative, and has curtailed civil rights (ie controlling the media and stuff like the whole Litvinenko affair) but he has appeared to give Russia back its self-confidence that was lost during the Yeltsin years. Plus, although I severely disagree with the Russian actions in Georgia, if I were a Russian national I’d probably hold the opposite views.

Hypno Toad
08-13-2008, 11:30 PM
To be honest though, I can see why the average Russian has a positive view of Putin. Yes he’s very manipulative, and has curtailed civil rights (ie controlling the media and stuff like the whole Litvinenko affair) but he has appeared to give Russia back its self-confidence that was lost during the Yeltsin years. Plus, although I severely disagree with the Russian actions in Georgia, if I were a Russian national I’d probably hold the opposite views.

Though he may have restored self confidence and self image, he has not done much about the shambling economy or rampant TB.

I don't think starting wars and killing free speakers is doing much to help. I hate to say it, but Russia is being run by a bunch of corrupt x-spies, who are nothing short of mobsters.
'

Look at the Alexander Litvinenko ordeal. The Russian government sends in government agents to assassinate another ex-spy, using a highly radioactive poison, irradiating the entire block IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY. I mean, WTF. The Russian government is comprised of animals.

Look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis


That's not how you solve a hostage crisis. They basically went run and gun rambo style, and killed 138 children. That is sick. It's like Russian citizens are stuck in their own personal hell made by the government. Another war is the last thing Russia needs right now.

lexs
08-13-2008, 11:34 PM
Iraq is different. The US invaded on false pretenses, true, but diplomacy had limitedly been tried. Russia invaded for no logical reason, smashed the Georgian army, and then continued to invade even though they declared a cease fire.

Slightly different than the US full born invasion/regime change. Everyone knew our intentions. No one knew Russia's.

LOL
of course Iraq is different; first invade and kill the ruler and after all say you were wrong ))) and killing about a 1000000 of local people.

But let me give a little help to american historical science.
Let's compare:

1. Since 1930 nazi's ideas spread in Austria and form local party widely supported by people
2. In 1938 Hitler made ultimatum for Austrian chancellor to let them power
3. Chancellor denyed and 2000000 Hitler army in 2 days covers Austria.
4. No even shooting no army fighting and only a few communist demonstrations.
5. Quite all austrians very happy; flowers and cries of joy. Chancellor in prison.

2008:
1. For more than 15 years osetians live apart from Georgia
2. In 2008 Saakashvili propose reintegration of province into Georgia
3. Osetians denyed and 30000 regular army enters Osetia
4. A lot of shooting and bombing on Tckhinval and since only a day city is mostly ruined
5. Osetians shouts about help russia calls for UN but USA denyes to stop gieorgians
6. Russian troops enter Osetia and since 3 days fighting destroy most of georgians militaries.
7. Russians stops stops besides Senaki and Gori (it is a launch distanse of "Grad" missles)
althought could take up Tbilisi and the rest of the country in another 2 days.

To make parallels between Putin and Hitler you should have the very strange and surprising fantasy.
I see no parallels althought rumors say of the very cruelty of georgians.
HRW says only in Tckhinval central hospital witch hardly bombed in 1st day of war 44 patients were killed and more than 200 injured. Surgery made in basement during the sewerages and rats.
Hwo ever bombs hospitals besides Hitler?

lexs
08-13-2008, 11:39 PM
Godwin's law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
yep it works.
but this time it comes from here I suppose:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/technology/georgian-websites-forced-offline-in-cyber-war/2008/08/12/1218306848654.html

jacknife737
08-13-2008, 11:39 PM
Though he ma have restored self confidence and self image, he has not done much about the shambling economy or rampant TB.

The size of the economy (including investor confidence) has grown considerably since Putin took office. Not to mention that since the 1998 crisis, poverty has declined as well. Putin isn't perfect, but lets not totally claim he's inept.

As to the rest of your post, i agree with a lot of what you've written. I'm not a Putin apologist, i just acknowledge that there are two sides to every story.

Hypno Toad
08-13-2008, 11:51 PM
Hwo ever bombs hospitals besides Hitler?

A lot of civilians were killed in Grozny when russian artillery shells landed on a hospital.


Though I guess it is hard to miss the hospital when he rest of the city was turned into this:

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5949/groznyvj6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

lexs
08-14-2008, 12:19 AM
...
So what is the difference between the US in Iraq and Russia in Georgia?

1. Everyone and their dog knew the US was going to invade Iraq and institute a regime change.
2. Russia had no real reason to invade. Essentially, Georgia was smacked for invading themselves such as Ossetia isn't its own country.
3. The US never violated peace/cease fire agreements. Russia has ignored the cease fire agreements by continuing the invasion past Ossetia and sacking Gori.

Point 2: Russian media sources are ungodly biased

...
Now from the Associated Press an article that has eyewitnesses to events unfolding. Biased?

heh the every media is biased and it is natural.
1. Russins has to show how it WAS begun to explain its people WHY another 60 soldiers were killed in fight: Tckhinvali city ruined in1 day and there are thousand osetians killed and thousands refugees.
2. USA has to show how it looks NOW to recolour madness of Saakashvili and to MAKE agressors from russians. Some houses destroyed in Gory and a lot of looting reported between the sites of the conflict.

The every media side is biased; be sure.
But you have your own brain to collect as much info as it help you to make your own decision.

After all I'll ask you and you answer if you can:

1. Where mass media, UN, OSCE was last month before the fight is getting high? It is not just rhetorical question; answer it if you can and think about. None of them was in Tckhival then olimpic "Grad" firework was started in the night of august 7 to 8.

2. Is it really the best view in Tbilisi when you wanna see what heppens in Tckhival? They must be have the very good spyglasses and telescopes to determine who were shooting first?

3. Why Saakashvili turned off an entire internet domain ".ru" and why russians did not off cnn, bbc, sky, gurdian and even ".ge"? I realy laugh on that Putins state shows more "democratic" attributes than Saakashvili even losing information battle.

To see how georgian "Grad" select top video and skip blablabla:
http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=143244
than answer:
4. Can you imagine what kind of accuracy has such a weapon? Pro-europe gazeta.ru reports that as georgian tanks could not enter Tckhinval through narrow south streets of the the city they withdraw for a while until "Grad" downed the houses to the level of the ground.

And if you will read all the east and west media around the conflict since beginning and until this day:
Try to answer:
5. Who 4real had begun all that madness??

I think that is the right question.
Another ones will come next to it.

lexs
08-14-2008, 12:46 AM
For whom who are fond of historical digs.

Don't you know how Osetians came to South and North ones?

In 1922 georgian-borned tyrant and ruler of Russia Iosif Stalin (borned name DzhugaSHVILI) divides Osetia to North and South gifted the the last one to lovely Georgia. No voting or referendum (LOL) it was just like pet or plaything to gift; discordants shooten; act is done.
No matter that osetians unites Russia as a single nation a hunded years before.

You must be say this was legitimate act and the osetians should just submit?

Today we have new hero of the news; It is Michail SaakaSHVILI. Of course we have no parallels in this case.
Or we have?

wheelchairman
08-14-2008, 01:41 AM
Of course Godwin's Law happens. Yeah Putin killed 6 million jews.... :/

Rooster
08-14-2008, 04:56 AM
Interesting, i don't hear any single news on TV stations in my country about the genocide commited on Ossetian people by Georgia. Seems like both sides indeed have biased media (our country seems to lean more on the Georgian side - we are in NATO and Georgia wants to join, so it should be obvious). Like everyone would be trying to make people forget of what really started the war, make people forget about the murders of 2000+ people. But no one seems to see the truth: someone had to help Ossetians, and Russia seemed to be doing so. However, they invaded further in Georgia than necessary, and bombed civillian targets also, which makes me question about their true intentions.

That makes both sides wrong - Georgia for commiting a genocide, and Russian for bombing civillians and invading further into Georgia. I don't like Saakashvilis' acting like Georgia is the innocent victim of Russia, but at the same time i don't like Russian bombing all over Georgia.

Now i think that Ossetians would need help in the first place, but NATO and EU and also US are all acting like Georgia is the innocent victim of all this. Georgia is not innocent, but Russia isn't either (i've explained what bothers me with Russian interferance). I'm leaning not on Georgian, neither on Russian side, but on OSSETIAN side.

lexs
08-14-2008, 06:32 AM
I think the same. As for ossetians these people pay enough.

Here is another one point of view (TheTimes):
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4525885.ece

selfDemanDeD
08-14-2008, 07:24 AM
Some real photos from a journalist that was with the 58th army in the zone of the conflict:
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=563

(If "Service Unavailable" is shown, please, hit the Refresh button.)

The story of this journalist (in Russian):
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/data/2008/59/00.html

IamSam
08-14-2008, 08:40 AM
5. Who 4real had begun all that madness??


Russia. By granting citizenship to Georgians and then invading past Ossetia into the rest of the country. There was no need for that. So what if your peacekeepers were shelled. Russia shot down a US spy plane once and we never did anything about it.

lexs
08-14-2008, 10:25 AM
Russia. By granting citizenship to Georgians and then invading past Ossetia into the rest of the country. There was no need for that. So what if your peacekeepers were shelled. Russia shot down a US spy plane once and we never did anything about it.

If I would american high school bureaucracy I should mark you as 10 of 10. You skipped all uncomfortable questions like there was none of them. Imagine! You skipped an entire nation like it ever never exists on the ground :cool:

But I am not. And by the way there is formal cause that georgians killed russian peacekeeprs in august 8. Peacekeepers are russian citizens if you forget. Care about citizens... Grenada, US invasion, 1982. Cheers! USA made it first (c). And now russians have enough reasons to put georgians back.

But we have digressed a bit.
You still did read nothing about Ossetia and Georgia history and still don't know that Georgia does not have any legal right to name this land "georgian"?
...Did not read that the Stalin-Dzhugashvili's act of Ossetia splitting to South and North was not ratified by parliaments and thus it is unlegitimate?
...Did not read that due to USSR desintegration treaty 1991 an every ex-republic had to ask the every national autonomy "do you want to live with us as integral country" via referendum but Georgia DID NOT ask but sent troops instead?

You did read nothing. 0 of 10.
From another hand the less you know is the less you care. So this knowledge is not for you but for ones who wanna know: WHO is responsible WHERE it happens and HOW to make it quit.

Rooster
08-14-2008, 10:47 AM
I think that for making proper conclusions about the problem, anyone should read both points of view, Russian and Georgian, plus a neutral point of view (well at least as neutral as you can find). I think that someone should have done something about the Ossetian independence, which i somehow don't see happening anytime soon, but a war should be the last solution. Instead of caring about that problem everyone now seem to focus on Georgia-Russia argument because of political interests. From Russian actions it doesn't seem like they just tried to help those people in Ossetia, because they interfered beyond the land of conflict, and that only helps in distracting public from the killings of 2000+ people that Georgians were responsible for. But that might have been a collateral damage.

And reading some history background would help to better understand the conflict also (and i mean history back before the 1990) to anyone here, and some here did that already.

F*ck, i'm repeating myself over and over here...

IamSam
08-14-2008, 11:01 AM
If I would american high school bureaucracy I should mark you as 10 of 10. You skipped all uncomfortable questions like there was none of them. Imagine! You skipped an entire nation like it ever never exists on the ground :cool:

But I am not. And by the way there is formal cause that georgians killed russian peacekeeprs in august 8. Peacekeepers are russian citizens if you forget. Care about citizens... Grenada, US invasion, 1982. Cheers! USA made it first (c). And now russians have enough reasons to put georgians back.

But we have digressed a bit.
You still did read nothing about Ossetia and Georgia history and still don't know that Georgia does not have any legal right to name this land "georgian"?
...Did not read that the Stalin-Dzhugashvili's act of Ossetia splitting to South and North was not ratified by parliaments and thus it is unlegitimate?
...Did not read that due to USSR desintegration treaty 1991 an every ex-republic had to ask the every national autonomy "do you want to live with us as integral country" via referendum but Georgia DID NOT ask but sent troops instead?

You did read nothing. 0 of 10.
From another hand the less you know is the less you care. So this knowledge is not for you but for ones who wanna know: WHO is responsible WHERE it happens and HOW to make it quit.

I'm going to be completely honest, I only answered that question because it's the only one I can understand. All this you just typed...means nothing to me because I can't understand you.

Rooster
08-14-2008, 11:26 AM
Who started it? Hmmmm, interesting question. It all depends on when you think the conflict really started - with Georgian killings of South Ossetians, or with Russian attack on Georgia. Beacuse South Ossetia is not recognised by UN, no international conflict was started when Georgia attacked South Ossetia. The international conflict started when Russia attacked Georgia, and this is the matter everyone focuses on now, instead of trying to resolve the original problem.

selfDemanDeD
08-14-2008, 11:27 AM
"
I know how this will end
But I’m starting up again
Turned around, inside out
Cause this way

Takes me nowhere – I can’t can’t see a way out
Takes me nowhere – I can’t can’t see a way out
Takes me nowhere – I can’t can’t see a way out
It beats me up

"

Ain't that right?..

IamSam
08-14-2008, 12:02 PM
Who started it? Hmmmm, interesting question. It all depends on when you think the conflict really started - with Georgian killings of South Ossetians, or with Russian attack on Georgia. Beacuse South Ossetia is not recognised by UN, no international conflict was started when Georgia commited that genocide. The international conflict started when Russia attacked Georgia, and this is the matter everyone focuses on now, instead of trying to resolve the original problem.

I'm curious when it goes from "collateral damage" to "genocide."

lexs
08-14-2008, 12:18 PM
... this is the matter everyone focuses on now, instead of trying to resolve the original problem.

I was hoping someone comes to this simple idea.
Watching these days tv is a kind of crazy thing; nobody neither hears nor understand another one; a conversation of blind and deaf.

"Have you ever".

Hypno Toad
08-14-2008, 12:19 PM
Some real photos from a journalist that was with the 58th army in the zone of the conflict:
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=563

(If "Service Unavailable" is shown, please, hit the Refresh button.)

The story of this journalist (in Russian):
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/data/2008/59/00.html


It has occurred to me the Russians are fairly lazy and careless about how they go about war (not the soldiers fault, it's the command). Their rep would be better if they went about it in an organized fashion. I once saw a video of an RPG7 hitting the top of a BMP, like in those pictures. plenty of Russian soldiers sitting on top. An armored personal carrier can be quite an amazing device, and can truly help you win the war. There is only ONE design flaw, you have to sit inside it for the armor to work.

I can see nothing but disaster for this war. Porrly disiplined soldiers + Careless command = Lots of civilian deaths, and large insurgency. It's a simple formula that they haven't seemed to have caught onto yet. Half of an invasion is the killign part, the Russians military has that down, but the other 50% is winning the hearts of your subjects. And god knows they are not doing that.

Rooster
08-14-2008, 12:35 PM
I'm curious when it goes from "collateral damage" to "genocide."

Allright, i didn't choose the right word. i edited my post now ;)

lexs
08-14-2008, 12:36 PM
An armored personal carrier can be quite an amazing device, and can truly help you win the war. There is only ONE design flaw, you have to sit inside it for the armor to work


There is no salvation for vehicle in case of rpg hit. Crew is roasted inside. The ones outside are wounded but still alive and can fire. To seat inside... it should be tank but now it does not give safety too.

Hypno Toad
08-14-2008, 12:36 PM
Allright, i didn't choose the right word. i edited my post now ;)

I don't think this Georgian conflict is a genocide (Chechnya was, though)

This seems to be a vendetta, or an overreaction.

Hypno Toad
08-14-2008, 12:38 PM
There is no salvation for vehicle in case of rpg hit. Crew is roasted inside. The ones outside are wounded but still alive and can fire. To seat inside... it should be tank but now it does not give safety too.

You don't know much about combat, do you?

A modern armored personal carrier can withstand the standard PG7V warhead for the RPG7 (PG7VR, that's a different story). AT rockets are more meant for disabling vehicles, not destroying.

If you are ambushed by 3 or 4, then you are in trouble. But if you managed to get into that situation in the first place, then you are obviously doing something wrong.


Besides, it looks like the Georgians have some M72, and RPG22 rockets in their position (boy, I wonder where they got those, america.)

But those are light AT rockets. That would not destroy a BMP.

A PG7Vr may be a shape charge, but if it lands next to you when you are on top of a tank, you will probably lose a limb.

Rooster
08-14-2008, 12:54 PM
I don't think this Georgian conflict is a genocide (Chechnya was, though)

This seems to be a vendetta, or an overreaction.

I am reading more about this, and it seems like certain media wanted to show it like genocide, and that might have fooled me a bit. Wikipedia has covered this problem quite good actually:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war

This is very neutrally written, with sources provided (as usuall), but i think many of you have already read this. This makes me questioning even more about if Russia did the right thing.

However, if South Ossetians demand independency, i think that a referendum would be a good salvation, but it would have to be organised in that way that both sides would respect the result.

lexs
08-14-2008, 01:03 PM
You don't know much about combat, do you?

You're right I am not a fan weapon books. At now we still have no actual info about combat losses but I am sure that last company will change some points of view.

I am sure you see chechen battalion on these photos. These guys know combat not by references so there may be a trick. I dont think they are lazy.

IamSam
08-14-2008, 01:47 PM
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20080814/capt.cps.nhe45.140808165332.photo01.photo.default-512x297.jpg?x=400&y=231&sig=5YJo2xUCnqr_WOEnZjXjSg--

Do you see this? This is a Russian T-80 tank fitted with a 125mm smoothbore cannon. It has reactive armor on it that can brush off an RPG/M72 round like it was a fly. This tank is also at Gori. Not where it is supposed to be, and there are 9 others just like it in the area according to AP reporters.

lexs
08-14-2008, 02:24 PM
Do you see this? This is a Russian T-80 tank fitted with a 125mm smoothbore cannon. It has reactive armor on it that can brush off an RPG/M72 round like it was a fly. This tank is also at Gori. Not where it is supposed to be, and there are 9 others just like it in the area according to AP reporters.
So what?
Do you know what is the distance from Tckhinval to Gori?

2 Hypno Toad:
I've read the evidence of witness. Sitting inside personal carrier were the last way of first peasekeepers sent to prevent georgians from entering Tckhinval. They had the order not to shoot anyway. Full story is here; not sure there is clear english version:
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnovayagazeta.ru%2Fdata%2F2008%2 F59%2F00.html&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

And here is reported use of "bumblebee" ("shmel" louncher):
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telekritika.ua%2Fmedia-suspilstvo%2Fview%2F2008-08-13%2F40007&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

Free?
08-14-2008, 02:29 PM
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20080814/capt.cps.nhe45.140808165332.photo01.photo.default-512x297.jpg?x=400&y=231&sig=5YJo2xUCnqr_WOEnZjXjSg--

Do you see this? This is a Russian T-80 tank fitted with a 125mm smoothbore cannon. It has reactive armor on it that can brush off an RPG/M72 round like it was a fly. This tank is also at Gori. Not where it is supposed to be, and there are 9 others just like it in the area according to AP reporters.

The official Russian version explaining their army controlling Gori is that they found there weapons and military vehicles left by Georgian army, so they just can't leave them there without any looking after. That's what I heard on TV :rolleyes:.

IamSam
08-14-2008, 03:21 PM
So what?
Do you know what is the distance from Tckhinval to Gori?


30 km.

How far is it from where the Russian tanks are supposed to be?

I'll answer for you or else I know I'll get some bullshit response.

50km. They should be in Russia. Not hanging out around Gori.

IamSam
08-14-2008, 03:33 PM
The official Russian version explaining their army controlling Gori is that they found there weapons and military vehicles left by Georgian army, so they just can't leave them there without any looking after. That's what I heard on TV :rolleyes:.

Apparently the Russians aren't being 'peacekeepers.' They are being 'peacemakers.'


TBILISI, Georgia (AP) -- The foreign minister of Russia said Thursday that Georgia could "forget about" getting back its two breakaway provinces, and the former Soviet republic remained on edge as Russia sent tank columns to search out and destroy Georgian military equipment.


Destroying military equipment is 'making peace.'

lexs
08-14-2008, 09:39 PM
30 km.

How far is it from where the Russian tanks are supposed to be?

I'll answer for you or else I know I'll get some bullshit response.

50km. They should be in Russia. Not hanging out around Gori.

Wrong. They should be there it is possible to stop bombings. I don't think there is the difference if ossetians are georgian citizens or russian. Nobody has a right to bomb either own or another citizens. US sayd it before and made it before so russians had pretty good teachers even if they were a bad pupil.
So destroying military equipment is really 'making peace.' Saakashvili can bawl in Tbilisi as mach as he wanna but he cannot bomb anything until he has no weapon.

From the over side I dont wonder if US and Europe were going to wait until Georgia wipes away a little nation 'couse it makes no difference between democracy and "Stalinizm". Guardian wrote it before about Saakashvili:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/apr/01/georgia.oil

His democracy has a taste of Stalin and Beria.

IamSam
08-14-2008, 11:09 PM
Wrong. They should be there it is possible to stop bombings. I don't think there is the difference if ossetians are georgian citizens or russian. Nobody has a right to bomb either own or another citizens. US sayd it before and made it before so russians had pretty good teachers even if they were a bad pupil.


So apparently you don't agree with the Russian Revolution or the American Civil War? Seems like without those two major events, we'd be in a different world, mate.

lexs
08-14-2008, 11:41 PM
So apparently you don't agree with the Russian Revolution or the American Civil War? Seems like without those two major events, we'd be in a different world, mate.

I don't care about the virtual world there some things had not been happened. If you owes somebody some money it will be forever until you either return it or sign a treaty that you don't owe. So as Ossetia. There is no legitimate treaties to name it georgians land.

And I have another surprise for you about your mention of "peacemakers". Russians WERE peacekeepers in Osetia before the august conflict until georgians shoot them. There is no doubt after that after all they became the "peacemakers".

We have evidence of 2004:

Russian forces, often accused in Tbilisi of covertly supporting the Abkhazian and South Ossetian separatists a decade ago, now patrol the regions as “peacekeepers”, effectively freezing the status quo

Or check out the end of the article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article840833.ece

Siegfried
08-15-2008, 12:52 AM
Yeah, but Third World War will be only for Sources of Water and it will be in Europe, and I think, in middle Europe, 'cause there are big sources of drinking water.. But that is MY opinion!
And I support Russia

IamSam
08-15-2008, 01:02 AM
Lexs: Can't understand anything you're trying to say.

lexs
08-15-2008, 01:59 AM
Lexs: Can't understand anything you're trying to say.
Can't help you if you don't try to do it.

However I've changed my post trying to be clearer.

...
Please review it.

lexs
08-15-2008, 03:41 AM
War in the Caucasus is as much the product of an American imperial drive as local conflicts. It's likely to be a taste of things to come



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/14/russia.georgia

Rooster
08-15-2008, 01:11 PM
Allegations of media bias

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin accused foreign media of pro-Georgian bias in their coverage of the ongoing conflict between Georgia and Russia over breakaway South Ossetia. "We want television screens in the West to be showing not only Russian tanks, and texts saying Russia is at war in South Ossetia and with Georgia, but also to be showing the suffering of the Ossetian people, the murdered elderly people and children, the destroyed towns of South Ossetia, and Tskhinvali. This would be an objective way of presenting the material," he said in a statement to Russian news agencies. Current Western media coverage of the events in the separatist republic is "a politically motivated version" in the eyes of government officials.[167]

On August 11, 2008, the government-funded Russia Today TV channel accused CNN of presenting video footage made by Russia Today in South Ossetia as pictures of bombed Gori.[168] The Western media has defended its coverage, with Chris Birkett, executive editor of Sky News saying: "I don't think there’s been a bias. Accusations of media bias are normal in times of war. We’ve been so busy with the task of newsgathering and deployment that the idea we've managed to come up with a conspiratorial line in our reporting is bananas." CNN has also defended its coverage.[169]

William Dunbar, a reporter for Russia Today in Georgia, resigned in protest of bias in the Russian media. He claimed he had not been on air since he mentioned Russian bombing of targets inside Georgia. He told The Moscow Times: "The real news, the real facts of the matter, didn't conform to what they were trying to report, and therefore, they wouldn't let me report it. I felt that I had no choice but to resign."[169] However one senior journalist from Russia Today called Dunbar's allegations of bias "nonsense". "The Russian coverage I have seen has been much better than much of the Western coverage,” he said, adding, "My view is that Russia Today is not particularly biased at all. When you look at the Western media, there is a lot of genuflection towards the powers that be. Russian news coverage is largely pro-Russia, but that is to be expected."

Human Rights Watch (HRW) called the Russian death toll figure of 2,000 unfounded, citing a doctor who said that between August 6 to 12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, more military than civilian. The doctor also said that 44 bodies had been brought to the hospital since the fighting began, both military and civilian. According to HRW, "the doctor was adamant that the majority of people killed in the city had been brought to the hospital before being buried".[170]Anna Neistat, leader of a HRW team investigating the humanitarian damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that[171]

HRW investigators had... recorded cases of Ossetian fighters burning and looting Georgian villages north of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali. "The torching of houses in these villages is in some ways a result of the massive Russia propaganda machine which constantly repeats claims of genocide and exaggerates the scale of casualties... That is then used to justify retribution."

Human Rights Watch say their researchers "witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians" and reported "armed Ossetian militia members in camouflage fatigues" taking household items out of houses in the village of Nizhnie Achaveti and loading them into their trucks. Explaining the looters' actions, "an Ossetian man" told Human Rights Watch, 'Of course, they are entitled to take things from Georgians now – because they lost their own property in Tskhinvali and other places.'".[172]

The Bush administration has been reported to be attempting to turn a failed military operation by Georgia into a successful diplomatic operation against Russia. It is doing so by presenting the Russian actions as aggression and playing down the Georgian attack into South Ossetia on 7 August, which triggered the Russian operation. Yet the evidence from South Ossetia about that attack indicates that it was extensive and damaging. Most of the Western media is based in Georgia. [173]


Cyberattacks and censorship

South Ossetian officials stated that two Ossetian news media sites were attacked. Dmitry Medoyev, the South Ossetian secessionist envoy in Moscow, claimed that Georgia was trying to cover up reports of deaths.[174]

The National Bank of Georgia website was defaced and replaced with a gallery of 20th century dictators, with Saakashvili added. Georgian news portals were under Internet denial-of-service attacks and reportedly the site of the Georgian Ministry of Defense was attacked as well. The Georgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs site was defaced and replaced with a collage of Saakashvili and Adolf Hitler photos.[175] According to the New York Times, Georgian websites crashed frequently on 8 August.[176]

The attacks are similar in nature to the 2007 cyberattacks on Estonia and were carried out with the same techniques.[177] Estonian authorities have pledged to provide Georgia assistance in cyber-warfare. Estonia has sent to Georgia two specialists in information security from the Computer Emergency Response Team (CERT) Estonia, and Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website is currently hosted on Estonian server.[178] The Office of the President of Poland has provided the website for dissemination of information and helped to get access to the Internet for Georgia's government after breakdowns of local servers caused by cyberattacks.[179]

Georgia had stopped broadcasting Russian television channels across the country.[180] Web sites hosted on domains with addresses ending in .ru “were briefly blocked” from Georgia.[181] Some pro-Russian sites in other zones were also reported to be blocked.[182] Both actions were taken due to Georgia's belief that Russia was conducting an information war.

RIA Novosti news agency's website was disabled for several hours on August 10 by a series of computer cracker attacks. "The DNS-servers and the site itself have been coming under severe attack," said Maxim Kuznetsov, head of the RIA Novosti IT department.[183] On August 11, Russia Today TV stated: "In the course of the last 24 hours RT’s website (www.russiatoday.com) has endured numerous DDoS attacks, which have made it unavailable for some time. Channel’s security specialists say the initial attack was carried out from an IP-address registered in the Georgian capital Tbilisi.[184]



Now how can we know know who to trust? Source: wikipedia

IamSam
08-15-2008, 01:12 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/14/russia.georgia

That's an opinion page. I'm not going to bother reading it because it is biased.

As per your earlier comment about
There is no legitimate treaties to name it Georgians land. it is bullshit and you know it. There is a way to go about becoming your own country. Ossetia did it wrong, therefore they were not allowed to become their own country. Russia seized that opportunity to undermine a regime in Georgia that they did not like. It's like Syria supporting Hamas in Israel.

Mota Boy
08-15-2008, 01:24 PM
Ah, I'm so glad to know that Russia stepped in to stop the ethnic cleansing of Ossetians (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/15ethnic.html?ex=1376452800&en=50f07917a46c2dbf&ei=5124&partner=facebook&exprod=facebook) by Georgians.

Oh, wait, the article says what? Oh man, look for the Ruskies to invade Ossetia any day now to stop the ethnic cleansing there.

Hypno Toad
08-15-2008, 09:04 PM
Yeah, but Third World War will be only for Sources of Water and it will be in Europe, and I think, in middle Europe, 'cause there are big sources of drinking water.. But that is MY opinion!
And I support Russia

World war 3 will happen for the same reasons WW1 and WW2 happened, lots of allies and alliances, and an antagonist. I think only the Russian government is careless enough to make the first move.

The soviets were smart and level headed enough to avoid a nuclear conflict. But I cannot say the same for the gangsters and spys in the Russian government.

Besides, they would get their asses kicked by the organized and disciplined armies of everybody they would be against :P


And lexs, It doesn't matter if the Georgians own the land or not, that doesn't give the Russians the right to have a disorganized tantrum of bullets and artillery.

lexs
08-15-2008, 09:40 PM
That's an opinion page. I'm not going to bother reading it because it is biased...
You have no args. All you say are unfounded things like water shaking. I'd rather say THAT is the real shit until you state even one argument to rely on. But you would not. You need nothing more than buble gam like cnn or fox slop.
And know what? You have insensibly entered the USSR; your press sing only one song in chorus and you dont like to have another. The only exception is that former USSR people were known that the single mention means a lie; and you dont know that.
So I salute you man; you're BACK IN USSR!

IamSam
08-15-2008, 09:45 PM
You have no args. All you say are unfounded things like water shaking. I'd rather say THAT is the real shit until you state even one argument to rely on. But you would not. You need nothing more than buble gam like cnn or fox slop.


What is args?

And before you start spouting nonsense about where I get my news from I'll tell you: The AP.

lexs
08-15-2008, 09:51 PM
And lexs, It doesn't matter if the Georgians own the land or not, that doesn't give the Russians the right to have a disorganized tantrum of bullets and artillery.

args = arguments.

AP is ok? Heh! Still dont know how information war is being done?


As foreign correspondents poured into Tbilisi a team of Belgian PR advisers launched a slick operation to keep them updated with e-mail alerts detailing the latest alleged aggressions by Russia and the Georgian Government’s reaction. On Sunday, for example, more than 20 e-mails went out to shape Georgia’s message that Russia had launched an invasion.
Some of the claims veered into outright exaggeration – such as stating that Russian jets were “intensively bombing Tbilisi” or that Russian troops had taken Gori – but the 24-hour news culture meant that many organisations repeated them without independent verification.

Full story is here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4518254.ece

And...
Man, dont you know that US had a real chance to stop it on first day of blood?? I bet u dont. 5 hours from the start of madness US denyed UN to demand Georgia of stopping bombing and killing but... Who'll say to you such a curious thing?

You have quite soviet mass media, man. That's the magic mutation! Life is full of surprises; I could't imagine things like that even 10 years before...

IamSam
08-15-2008, 11:07 PM
I'm not going to lie: I think you are more brainwashed than what you think I am. I'm watching AP reporters getting shot at by Russians and Ossetians in Georgia. Deny it?

lexs
08-15-2008, 11:40 PM
I'm not going to lie: I think you are more brainwashed than what you think I am. I'm watching AP reporters getting shot at by Russians and Ossetians in Georgia. Deny it?
Of course I am not. And I say this is the clear example of mind manipulation 'cause
1st ...there is no any mention of the context of incident
2nd ...just the same were reported blaming the other side (georgian soldiers) but NOT by AP

One thing I know well is that:
The only opinion in the media means lie

Oh yes sometimes censorship makes mistakes like 12-year girl interview and this funny thing
(skip blablabla to the 1:00 and have a real fun):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJoh16XMscw
but for these cases there is the "Wipe" button. Video and comments stripped. Soviet Union mazaff**ka...

Free?
08-16-2008, 01:56 AM
I'm not going to lie: I think you are more brainwashed than what you think I am. I'm watching AP reporters getting shot at by Russians and Ossetians in Georgia. Deny it?

The bad thing about Russian TV is that they obviously show only one side of the coin, their picture looks pretty solid and logical, but there is nothing about Russians' mistakes (like shooting reporters). Does AP show anything not anti-Russian?

lexs
08-16-2008, 02:05 AM
Here is some non-censored evidences. Generally it is LJ.

Tckhinval after georgian assault: an excursion on armored car. Clip was sent to paper by one of LJ participants:
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kp.ru%2Fvideo%2F8716%2F&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate
and photos from other side of the conflict:
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvaziani.livejournal.com%2F2260. html&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

wheelchairman
08-16-2008, 07:26 AM
Ah, I'm so glad to know that Russia stepped in to stop the ethnic cleansing of Ossetians (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/15ethnic.html?ex=1376452800&en=50f07917a46c2dbf&ei=5124&partner=facebook&exprod=facebook) by Georgians.

Oh, wait, the article says what? Oh man, look for the Ruskies to invade Ossetia any day now to stop the ethnic cleansing there.

Well that's not too surprising is it? Law enforcement infrastructures are surely weakened due to the conflict.

IamSam
08-16-2008, 09:57 PM
Oh Russia...you just make things sooooo much better for you.


Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles

By JIM HEINTZ

MOSCOW (AP) — Russia warned Poland on Friday that it is exposing itself to attack — even a nuclear one — by accepting a U.S. missile interceptor base on its soil, delivering Moscow's strongest language yet against the plan.

American and Polish officials stuck firmly by their deal, signed Thursday, for Poland to host a system that Washington says is meant to block missile attacks by rogue nations like Iran.

Moscow is convinced the base is aimed at Russia's missile force, however, and the deal comes as relations already are strained over the fighting between Russia and U.S.-allied Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff of Russia's armed forces, was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying.

He noted Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." Nogovitsyn said that would include elements of any strategic deterrence system, according to Interfax.

adombomb222
08-16-2008, 10:40 PM
Bottom line, Russia is trying to destory Georgia.

IamSam
08-16-2008, 11:17 PM
Bottom line, Russia is trying to destory Georgia.

Correction: Puppeteer Putin is trying to bring back the good old days when people were afraid of the Bear and didn't find it to be the cuddly teddy variety.

adombomb222
08-16-2008, 11:21 PM
Again, Putin is the mordern day Hitler.

lexs
08-16-2008, 11:30 PM
Oh Russia...you just make things sooooo much better for you.

Oh yes. There is no wonder that russians move of despair should be interpreted by neighbors exactly this way. The Russia tryed to play the regional "US" and it scared them. From the start of interceptors discussion it was undoubtful that its objective is Russia and not Iran. So the interceptors looks natural consequence as Russia becomes the reason. But let me guess: another interceptors against poland interceptors are natuaral too while looking situation at russians point of view.
Natural things are coming from bad to even worse. I dont like this shit.

IamSam, it looks u are jealous about another "US" in the world? But wait a bit and China will overgrow buth US and Russia until they do this childish bickering. And I think we shell see more terrible consequences of internation law violations that were done by US for last years.

adombomb222
08-16-2008, 11:39 PM
Lexs:
Why did you censor yourself in you sig?

Also it seems (I have not read you last posts) that you are on the side of the Reds.

wheelchairman
08-17-2008, 06:11 AM
Oh yes. There is no wonder that russians move of despair should be interpreted by neighbors exactly this way. The Russia tryed to play the regional "US" and it scared them. From the start of interceptors discussion it was undoubtful that its objective is Russia and not Iran. So the interceptors looks natural consequence as Russia becomes the reason. But let me guess: another interceptors against poland interceptors are natuaral too while looking situation at russians point of view.
Natural things are coming from bad to even worse. I dont like this shit.

IamSam, it looks u are jealous about another "US" in the world? But wait a bit and China will overgrow buth US and Russia until they do this childish bickering. And I think we shell see more terrible consequences of internation law violations that were done by US for last years.

Instead of tackling the question at hand you change the topic so that it's about China, America, everybody but Russia.

Was Russia right in protecting the South Ossetians? Personally I think Georgia was provoked as it looks as though Saakashvili up until the last minute was trying to find a way to contact Russia.


The war against Georgia was a brilliant provocation carefully planned and successfully carried out by the Russian leadership. The campaign was practically identical to the plan carried out in another theatre at another time — [Chechen warlord Shamil] Basaev’s attack into Dagestan and the beginning of the second Chechen war in 1999.

lexs
08-17-2008, 08:13 AM
Lexs:
Why did you censor yourself in you sig?

Also it seems (I have not read you last posts) that you are on the side of the Reds.
First I didt want to be banned from the start. I had some things to say.
Second I live in Russia if you mean that. There are some traces of civilization so there are the Offspring fans too.

lexs
08-17-2008, 08:40 AM
Instead of tackling the question at hand you change the topic so that it's about China, America, everybody but Russia.

Was Russia right in protecting the South Ossetians? Personally I think Georgia was provoked as it looks as though Saakashvili up until the last minute was trying to find a way to contact Russia.
Then skip whatever you want. There were a lot of questions to track so that is the main you want to discuss? Georgia was provoked? What does it mean? And what does it mean the "last minute"? "I bored of diplomatic game"?

To be honest I realy think that I saw a kind of mechanism there the parts were moved against to its will. Like "we presumed that to do if... but we did't want it". And the main thing is that NOBODY in US cares about ossetians. Until now I see it is not only officials point and I see why.

IamSam
08-17-2008, 09:05 AM
Hey lexs...this isn't about America or China. It's about Russia getting its panties in a wad over a country trying to hold itself together and other countries trying to protect themselves. The missiles they are putting in aren't offensive weapons, they are defensive weapons. That means the only way they can hurt Russia is if Russia decides to launch an offensive.

lexs
08-17-2008, 09:55 AM
Hey lexs...this isn't about America or China. It's about Russia getting its panties in a wad over a country trying to hold itself together and other countries trying to protect themselves. The missiles they are putting in aren't offensive weapons, they are defensive weapons. That means the only way they can hurt Russia is if Russia decides to launch an offensive.
Well man you would rather to decide if you a jurist or not. If you are this one then you have to hold Yugoslavia in one piece. Of course if you can. And if you are a jurist then to read the history is very useful thing too; I mean treaties, constitutions and so on. Bombing is not reading. That is.

If you are not a jurist then you better forget all these moral words about "self-protection". So decide it first and we shell see what was wrong and what was right.

Next (sure interseptors dont change this topic, yes?) please dont think I am moron. "Defensive" means it counters (downgrades) a portion of "offensive" ones. Thus the balance is changed and one of the opponents comes to be less defended than other one. "Defensive" is the propaganda trick for ones who never think about system as a set of balances.
Сoncerning Poland I think russians never had any chance to change it happens. The only thing they really could make is to setup "interseptors for interseptors". Rhetoric to be calm down as it happens but finally not only europe security will be suffered of course. Sorry it could be written in one word.

IamSam
08-17-2008, 09:56 AM
What the fuck are you talking about?

lexs
08-17-2008, 11:09 AM
What the fuck are you talking about?
Find a stimulant; use it and try again. Fucking and drinking are ok.

IamSam
08-20-2008, 03:05 PM
Hopefully lexs is no more.

Here we go:


In Georgia, Russia digs in as pullback date nears

SACHKHERE, Georgia (AP) — Russian forces dug trenches and built sentry posts deep inside Georgia on Wednesday, showing few signs they would pull back later this week as promised.

Georgian soldiers suggested the Russians were trying to provoke them and justify a resumption of the conflict, which over five days pounded the infrastructure of the small former Soviet republic and the morale of its troops.

I also read today that in Poti, Russians captured 15 Georgian soldiers, blindfolded them, and drove them off.

Rooster
08-20-2008, 04:33 PM
Hopefully lexs is no more.

Here we go:



I also read today that in Poti, Russians captured 15 Georgian soldiers, blindfolded them, and drove them off.

Yep, the glorious days of peace are coming back...

Superdope
08-21-2008, 12:36 PM
Best believe, Russia's gonna milk this as long as they can.

Rooster
08-22-2008, 01:49 PM
Now it really looks like the beginning of a new cold war. The situation in Georgia is slowly getting better, but now things are getting more complicated with the missile defence shield in Poland and Czech republic. Russia is complaining about it, but they should remember they did the same thing in Cuba first during the cold war...

edit: i created a thread about the missle defence system, so you can discuss it there if you want.

lexs
08-22-2008, 09:01 PM
Hopefully lexs is no more.
Here we go:

I also read today that in Poti, Russians captured 15 Georgian soldiers, blindfolded them, and drove them off.
Swamp sweet swamp. "What the fuck are you talking about?"
3 of these 15 were arabians. Saakashvili s got nobody to fight for him?

Rooster
08-23-2008, 10:59 AM
Swamp sweet swamp. "What the fuck are you talking about?"
3 of these 15 were arabians. Saakashvili s got nobody to fight for him?

I'm sorry, but what the fuck are YOU talking about? Guess what, you smart ass? They were still Georgian soldiers, so it does matter.

Jesus
08-23-2008, 02:36 PM
Nah, I would be very disappointed in Russia. Though, now, they want to get rid of their president, but I approve, it was foolish to kill 1500 people = start the war.

"This question has been deleted."

There you have it, bolded. Georgia started the war. Foolish. Suicide. USA would have done the same thing. Georgia had to know that they would get invaded.

It was quite retarded to start the war, Georgia is a potential EU member. And potential NATO member in 2009. The thing I don't understand, why not wait for NATO membership and then kill 1500 people. They would be safe in NATO. Russian invasion would mean the 3rd world war then.

ps:
Maria, not only you are real life Gallo-Grecian whore from the 19th century, you are also a political prostitute! :D

pps:
Raptor, stop being such a pussy and take a side. You have it pretty nice analysed. You should side with Russia because it was retarded to start the war. It doesn't matter whose region it was.

ppps:
There is a difference between invading Iraq and Georgia. No American citizens were (killed) in Iraq.

pppps:
I don't approve of bombarding civilian targets. Shame on Russia. Just like USA in Serbia.

Can't be bothered to read past this post, since i basically agree with this. The first posts here were pretty akward, then again media coverage by anglo saxon media was so fucking horrible. The BBC had one good summary but that was it (and that one didn't even mention Kosovo lol). The Financial Times was the only one that ran some pretty good columns and had some nice reporting, as usual.

But yeah why did Saakashvili start it now. Well he was a domestic failure. And by playing a martyr he tried to gain popularity again. (That he is a failure isn't that surprising since he's basically a retarded neocon, just read his WSJ op-eds history).

Then there's also a more realist US perspective which sort of goes: the conflict will help to overcome European opposition to Georgia joining NATO and will fasten the installment of the missile 'defense' system (which any sane strategic analyst considers a first strike weapon) in Poland and the Czech Republic. I don't think it'll speed up the first though, the second one it will probably do. But i'm going for personal gain for Saakashvili, because of the current fools in Washington.


LMAO. "Medvedev ordered a halt to military operation" hahahaha...Oh Putin has him so whipped it isn't even funny. (Even though I'm laughing)
Well that's the same as saying Bush did this or the Bush administration did that. When we all know he isn't the decider, he's just the spokesperson.

HeadAroundU
08-26-2008, 12:54 PM
Hehe, Jesus, I noticed that we often agree with each other. <3

News! Abchazia and South Ossetia are independent! The USA (glorious world policeman) set up precedent in Kosovo. Now, here they have it. Russia is doing the same thing. And I lol'd at Bush and ''kundolíza'' Rice (pussylicker, in Slovak language) saying that Russia should respect the territorial integrity of Georgia and that it's pitiful.

I love my country, Slovakia. We haven't recognized Kosovo and we are not gonna recognize Abchazia and South Ossetia. However, I'm happy Russians did it.

World powers should take UN more seriously.

Keyser
08-26-2008, 01:14 PM
Hehe, Jesus, I noticed that we often agree with each other. <3

News! Abchazia and South Ossetia are independent! The USA (glorious world policeman) set up precedent in Kosovo. Now, here they have it. Russia is doing the same thing. And I lol'd at Bush and ''kundolíza'' Rice (pussylicker, in Slovak language) saying that Russia should respect the territorial integrity of Georgia and that it's pitiful.

I love my country, Slovakia. We haven't recognized Kosovo and we are not gonna recognize Abchazia and South Ossetia. However, I'm happy Russians did it.

World powers should take UN more seriously.

Soon we will have hundreds of countries that are only recognized by a few.

Rice earlier this year: Kosovo will never be a part of Serbia again

Bush last week: S. Ossetia and Abchazia will remain Georgian territory.

:confused:

IamSam
08-26-2008, 03:03 PM
Kosovo and Georgia are two separate instances with two separate set of circumstances which are different and validate the situations.

Keyser
08-27-2008, 08:54 AM
Abchazian/ Kosovo people want independence from the main country. This causes tensions between the 2 groups in the zones. Seperatists start to use violent acts for their cause, this goes on for quite a few years. The violence starts to get out of hand, seperatists use more and more violence towards ethnic Georgian/ Serbian people. Georgia/Serbia retaliate with large scale violence, also towards civilians. Russia/NATO, who have ''proof'' that there's acts of genocide going on, start a counter attack to protect the Abchazian/Kosovo people. Russia/NATO send ''peacekeeping forces'' to protect the civilians. Abchazian/Kosovo people eventually declare a one sided independance, recognized by their supporters from Russia/the West.

And still these 2 situations are said to be different. Why?

IamSam
08-27-2008, 10:34 AM
This is why.



Two separate instances. Montenegro gained independence through a referendum and vote. The entire ordeal was observed by 5 different groups and gained approval by Serbia as well as voting in Serbian districts.

Ossetia's voting was only in Ossetia and did not gain approval from Georgia. While 99% of Ossetians voted for independence, it was not recognized as a legitimate referendum because of the lack of ethnic Georgians.

There is a way to go about getting independence and it wasn't met. Do they deserve their own country? Sure. But do it the right way instead of just breaking away.

Russians sent peacekeepers who are supposed to stay neutral. How are they perceived to be neutral when Russia is very much on the Ossetians side?

Keyser
08-27-2008, 11:25 AM
This is why.

I agree on what you say here. BUT:

You're talking about Montenegro here. Point 2,3 and 4 of you go for Kosovo's independence too.

Point 2: In a legimate voting in Georgia, the result would be for 99% sure the same (like in Kosovo, even if everyone voted, there still are way more voters for independance then against). Neither Georgia nor Serbia would ever cooperate with a referendum for independence then.

Point 3: Breaking away is exactly what happened in Kosovo. Supported by the west.

Point 4: NATO peacekeepers are supposed to be neutral aswell. Tough, through the years they did just a little against ethnic Albanian crimes towards the Serb minority.

I'm against the independence of Kosovo , Abchazia and Ossetia. Partially for the reasons you wrote. But I can't really blame Russia for their ''plan'' in this situation. A half a year ago, everyone ignored them in the Kosovo issue. And now its happening the other way.