PDA

View Full Version : Furries. The new creepiest thing ever.



Smash_Returns
09-05-2008, 11:08 PM
Okay, I just encountered one of them while working today, and I must say, it was a terrifying experience.

If they just wanted to be animals, I'd be fine with it, a bit creeped out, but I'd recognize it as their own "special" fantasy. I'd know that, yes there are a lot of things, such as stories, movies, etc... that depict animals as the main characters, and maybe they just got really into it growing up.

But then they have the "yiff"-ing and the sexual orientation and I must say, it is one of the most akward things to publicly see.

It was a group of Furries that came in a HUGE van (like 12 of them) and started shopping. They were constantly complimenting each others tails and whatnot, and well, it was a... new experience... to say the least.

Cock Joke
09-05-2008, 11:18 PM
Well I thought I looked good in my bunny outfit.

arak0r
09-05-2008, 11:18 PM
hardly new

randman21
09-05-2008, 11:24 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about.

Smash_Returns
09-05-2008, 11:26 PM
hardly new

Even if they have been around a while, it was my first personal encounter with them.

arak0r
09-05-2008, 11:48 PM
ive seen a grown guy before walkin around, looked like a taller thinner steven seagal, haircut and all. with a tail.

Llamas
09-06-2008, 12:01 AM
It's not new, and I honestly don't think it's creepy unless they're actually having sex with animals. There are WAY weirder things for people to be into than that.

Jebus
09-06-2008, 12:07 AM
I admit. Zag's post made me smile.

Hypno Toad
09-06-2008, 12:24 AM
Old news. Furries have been creepy for a while.

Bipolar Bear
09-06-2008, 12:29 AM
I had no clue what furries were, but having read this thread I know exactly what they are now. I'm going to google image it, this looks interesting.


Ah..well...interesting...
Disturbing..but interesting

http://lukewelling.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/furries.jpg

Hypno Toad
09-06-2008, 12:32 AM
If you have ever played second life, you will know what a furry is. God I hate that game.

ninthlayer
09-06-2008, 12:59 AM
It's not new, and I honestly don't think it's creepy unless they're actually having sex with animals. There are WAY weirder things for people to be into than that.

Fuck you Llamas, furries are among the most disgusting people I've ever met (and I know someone that fucked his retarded sister). I'm in a class with a guy that's a total fucking furry and it bothers me more than anything, like, what a fucking qb.

jacknife737
09-06-2008, 01:19 AM
They're fucked up to say the least. If they like dressing up like animals, or doing whatever as animals, that's fine they should be able to do what they want; however, i still think its weird.

Llamas
09-06-2008, 01:23 AM
Oh, it's definitely weird. But weird is far different from creepy, I think.

Lizardus
09-06-2008, 01:55 AM
Fuck you Llamas, furries are among the most disgusting people I've ever met (and I know someone that fucked his retarded sister). I'm in a class with a guy that's a total fucking furry and it bothers me more than anything, like, what a fucking qb.

Shoot the bastard with a shotgun and say it's open season.

Oxygene
09-06-2008, 02:04 AM
Holy shit... wtf?

mrconeman
09-06-2008, 05:04 AM
I used to have this internet buddy who was kind of alright to talk to sometimes, then he became a fucking furry, and along with it seemed to lose any concept of intelligence or witt, and just became a fucking moron.

Is it an American/Japanese thing or something, I swear to God if someone pulled this shit here someone would break their knees.

holland25
09-06-2008, 05:13 AM
Welcome to our newest member, furrytomato

Coincidence? I don't think so.

ninthlayer
09-06-2008, 11:07 AM
Oh, it's definitely weird. But weird is far different from creepy, I think.
You think incorrectly.


Shoot the bastard with a shotgun and say it's open season.
This actually quite clever. Too bad the fgt is like the TA for the class.

WebDudette
09-06-2008, 12:32 PM
Yeah, furries. bad. creepy. wrong. weird.

bighead384
09-06-2008, 12:46 PM
Man, I'm glad I'm not a freak. Seriously, I sometimes feel bad for ridiculous people. Furries, animal fuckers, child predators. What's it like to wake up everyday as one of those people?

Llamas
09-06-2008, 01:53 PM
Okay, maybe I'm just missing something regarding these people, because I really don't see what is creepy or wrong about it. Yes, it's super weird and something I can't personally relate to or understand, but it's probably just because I haven't really been exposed to it. I don't see how being into animated characters and dressing up as them is any more wrong than having a gender change, or really liking and dressing up as superheroes.

I mean, having sex with animals is clearly wrong. Pedophiles are clearly wrong. But I don't see how this culture of weirdos is hurting anyone, and I don't see how it is wrong or creepy. Someone explain it to me.

arak0r
09-06-2008, 01:53 PM
well i dont think theyd even notice, as they prolly dont think whatever issue they have is too weird, those that do, get help.

bighead384
09-06-2008, 02:00 PM
I don't see how being into animated characters and dressing up as them is any more wrong than having a gender change

I really don't think I care for people who get gender changes. I think it's ridiculous.

KHWHD
09-06-2008, 02:03 PM
I had no clue what furries were, but having read this thread I know exactly what they are now. I'm going to google image it, this looks interesting.


Ah..well...interesting...
Disturbing..but interesting

http://lukewelling.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/furries.jpg

Wow, I can't say I've ever experienced seeing anything like that in real life. Unless they're mascots or something for some kind of sports event. Weird. :confused:

Little_Miss_1565
09-06-2008, 02:08 PM
What's with all the emo? Furries are hilarious. I love going to the cherry blossom fest here in Brooklyn every year because all the wannabe Asians come out, including plenty of furries. Funniest shit ever.

And seriously, anyone who has a problem with gender reassignment is totally lame. I've known a few trannies, and their transitions made total sense.

JohnnyNemesis
09-06-2008, 02:13 PM
ilovellamas is the voice of reason in this thread. But I still fucking hate this thread. wtf , people!

Little_Miss_1565
09-06-2008, 02:14 PM
But I still fucking hate this thread. wtf , people!

phear what's different!!

bighead384
09-06-2008, 02:23 PM
And seriously, anyone who has a problem with gender reassignment is totally lame. I've known a few trannies, and their transitions made total sense.

I don't know what to say to this. I like to think of myself as open minded, but I can't imagine why someone would decide they want to change their sex.

JohnnyNemesis
09-06-2008, 02:29 PM
Various reasons, I'm sure. But I think it's less of a "decision" for them and more them just trying to move forward with how they feel.

Endymion
09-06-2008, 02:29 PM
http://homepage.mac.com/watchmepea/_Media/bunny-suit_large.jpeg

KHWHD
09-06-2008, 02:45 PM
http://homepage.mac.com/watchmepea/_Media/bunny-suit_large.jpeg

Haha, I love that movie.. lol.

Llamas
09-06-2008, 02:49 PM
I don't know what to say to this. I like to think of myself as open minded, but I can't imagine why someone would decide they want to change their sex.

Example. I know someone who was born a male, but has been female for the last few years. We've had extensive discussions about it, because I totally didn't understand it (and well, I understand MORE now, but I don't think I'll fully understand). She told me that she lived her entire life in the wrong gender. Our society forces gender roles upon us, and she grew up fitting into the female gender role, but of course was attacked and picked on for it, so she hid it for years. She never was able to be herself in society. This led to her hating her life and even to thoughts of suicide. One day, she just decided that the only way she was going to be happy was to start living as a woman. People were a bit weirded out, but she found out who her true friends were. And now she's very happy and well-adjusted.

That's just one example of why people would get a gender change. It's far from anything I'd ever consider doing, and I definitely can't relate to feeling out of place in my gender (I love being a girl), but I at least can at some basic level understand it.

Honestly, I think you probably find it weird and discomforting because you haven't talked to someone who's been through it. I found it a lot weirder before I met anyone who had a gender change.

Steal
09-06-2008, 02:50 PM
And seriously, anyone who has a problem with gender reassignment is totally lame. I've known a few trannies, and their transitions made total sense.

I don't have a problem with it, I don't discriminate against them, but I just can't help thinking it is REALLY REALLY weird. If my son got sex changed into a girl, I would be really disappointed and I'm not really sure if I could handle it. And it would embarrass me...I know that's wrong but it's just impossible for me to imagine. But I really don't care what anyone does, it's not really hurting anyone.

Little_Miss_1565
09-06-2008, 03:00 PM
I don't know what to say to this. I like to think of myself as open minded, but I can't imagine why someone would decide they want to change their sex.

Then you shouldn't think of yourself as open minded, because what you said was incredibly judgmental. It's not even like you were asking someone to break it down for you, you just slammed it.


Various reasons, I'm sure. But I think it's less of a "decision" for them and more them just trying to move forward with how they feel.

Yes, partially. Llamas gets the points, though:


She told me that she lived her entire life in the wrong gender. Our society forces gender roles upon us, and she grew up fitting into the female gender role, but of course was attacked and picked on for it, so she hid it for years. She never was able to be herself in society. This led to her hating her life and even to thoughts of suicide. One day, she just decided that the only way she was going to be happy was to start living as a woman. People were a bit weirded out, but she found out who her true friends were. And now she's very happy and well-adjusted....

Honestly, I think you probably find it weird and discomforting because you haven't talked to someone who's been through it. I found it a lot weirder before I met anyone who had a gender change.

One of my friends from college transitioned male, and when I knew him as a woman she had a lot of mental problems, a history of psychotic breaks, bad stuff basically. And then after he came to terms with the fact that he had always felt male and transitioned to a male adopted name etc., the mental problems stopped. He makes perfect sense as a man, and he's happy and dates a lot of really hot women.

He's still female by sex because you really can't get a wang surgerized, but what's important is gender since that's the performance that we put on for everyone else in society. Gender is and should be fluid, and that's what makes someone male or female or somewhere in between, not their sex.


I don't have a problem with it, I don't discriminate against them, but I just can't help thinking it is REALLY REALLY weird. If my son got sex changed into a girl, I would be really disappointed and I'm not really sure if I could handle it. And it would embarrass me...I know that's wrong but it's just impossible for me to imagine. But I really don't care what anyone does, it's not really hurting anyone.

You understand that everything you wrote after "I don't have a problem with it" says that you have a big screaming problem with it, right?

Sunny
09-06-2008, 03:21 PM
comparing being a furry to suffering from gender dysphoria = fail. on so many levels.




He's still female by sex because you really can't get a wang surgerized, but what's important is gender since that's the performance that we put on for everyone else in society. Gender is and should be fluid, and that's what makes someone male or female or somewhere in between, not their sex.


i'm afraid such subtleties - even the differences between sex and gender - might be lost on a LOT of people here. which is quite sad.

Dirty Bertie
09-06-2008, 03:31 PM
Hey- some good points from 1565 and Sunny!

Before I read those, I was going to wisecrack about ladyboys BUT i really don't want to FAIL that badly :o

Shame that Steal is displaying his/her prejudices for us all to see

Bipolar Bear
09-06-2008, 04:37 PM
Example. I know someone who was born a male, but has been female for the last few years. We've had extensive discussions about it, because I totally didn't understand it (and well, I understand MORE now, but I don't think I'll fully understand). She told me that she lived her entire life in the wrong gender. Our society forces gender roles upon us, and she grew up fitting into the female gender role, but of course was attacked and picked on for it, so she hid it for years. She never was able to be herself in society. This led to her hating her life and even to thoughts of suicide. One day, she just decided that the only way she was going to be happy was to start living as a woman. People were a bit weirded out, but she found out who her true friends were. And now she's very happy and well-adjusted.

That's just one example of why people would get a gender change. It's far from anything I'd ever consider doing, and I definitely can't relate to feeling out of place in my gender (I love being a girl), but I at least can at some basic level understand it.

Honestly, I think you probably find it weird and discomforting because you haven't talked to someone who's been through it. I found it a lot weirder before I met anyone who had a gender change.

Wow, thanks for that post. It sure does make you realize what transsexuals have to go through, and their motives for getting their gender change. Even though I'm really not a prejudiced person, I do feel uneasy with transsexuals for some reason. I have nothing against them but it just feels strange. Maybe it's because they're so rare and I don't know any personally. What I do know is that if my best friend would get a gender change for the same reason as mentioned in your post, I'd still be his friend and help him through it. Not that my friend is gay or anything, I'm just speaking hypothetically.

bighead384
09-06-2008, 06:26 PM
i'm afraid such subtleties - even the differences between sex and gender - might be lost on a LOT of people here. which is quite sad.

This post is sooo 1337.

Smash_Returns
09-06-2008, 06:30 PM
I've nothing against trannies. At least they are still being human. They aren't even similar (to furries), really.

It's the people that want to be animals, and take it into the sexuality standpoint that freaks me out. It isn't even really the "animal" thing that bugs me, its the whole "yiff" thing that freaks me out about them.

bighead384
09-06-2008, 06:31 PM
Example. I know someone who was born a male, but has been female for the last few years. We've had extensive discussions about it, because I totally didn't understand it (and well, I understand MORE now, but I don't think I'll fully understand). She told me that she lived her entire life in the wrong gender. Our society forces gender roles upon us, and she grew up fitting into the female gender role, but of course was attacked and picked on for it, so she hid it for years. She never was able to be herself in society. This led to her hating her life and even to thoughts of suicide. One day, she just decided that the only way she was going to be happy was to start living as a woman. People were a bit weirded out, but she found out who her true friends were. And now she's very happy and well-adjusted.

That's just one example of why people would get a gender change. It's far from anything I'd ever consider doing, and I definitely can't relate to feeling out of place in my gender (I love being a girl), but I at least can at some basic level understand it.

Honestly, I think you probably find it weird and discomforting because you haven't talked to someone who's been through it. I found it a lot weirder before I met anyone who had a gender change.

This helps me to understand it a little better, although I can't quite fully understand it either. It's hard to really learn to accept a choice that some people make when you haven't ever met anyone like that.

Llamas
09-06-2008, 08:34 PM
comparing being a furry to suffering from gender dysphoria = fail. on so many levels.
I was only comparing it on the level that I don't see how a decision to live your life a certain way that doesn't hurt anyone can be considered "creepy". And in a way that I'll state below.


This helps me to understand it a little better, although I can't quite fully understand it either. It's hard to really learn to accept a choice that some people make when you haven't ever met anyone like that.
Oh, right. Like I said, I was less comfortable with the idea before I met anyone "like that".

I imagined it might be the same with furries. I find the concept super weird, but I've never met someone "like that", and don't know anything besides what's on the internet. It might make a lot more sense if someone who lives as such explained it to me.

Little_Miss_1565
09-06-2008, 09:21 PM
This helps me to understand it a little better, although I can't quite fully understand it either. It's hard to really learn to accept a choice that some people make when you haven't ever met anyone like that.

That's the thing--it's not a "choice." You don't just decide one day that you're a dude/chick in the wrong body.

I get that people are afraid of it because they think that the one thing they can count on is the gender binary and if others can violate the sanctity of the gender binary then that somehow means that they themselves might wake up one day and suddenly wish they had boobs or some shit, but it's not. It's a rare occurrence, and if you had feelings like this, you would already know.



I imagined it might be the same with furries. I find the concept super weird, but I've never met someone "like that", and don't know anything besides what's on the internet. It might make a lot more sense if someone who lives as such explained it to me.

That's the thing too--I just don't understand why it's of any import to anyone else.

Llamas
09-06-2008, 09:34 PM
That's the thing too--I just don't understand why it's of any import to anyone else.

What do you mean by this?

Little_Miss_1565
09-06-2008, 09:37 PM
What do you mean by this?

So someone thinks they were a unicorn in a past life and devote most of their free time to exploring this part of themselves. So what?

Llamas
09-06-2008, 09:47 PM
So someone thinks they were a unicorn in a past life and devote most of their free time to exploring this part of themselves. So what?

Ah, I fully agree with you. Personally, I just find these kind of things interesting. I wouldn't turn down many opportunities to learn about other lifestyles.

Jebus
09-06-2008, 09:52 PM
So someone thinks they were a unicorn in a past life and devote most of their free time to exploring this part of themselves. So what?
Wait. I honestly can't tell if you were making a point for or against furies.

Tyler Durden
09-06-2008, 10:00 PM
That's the thing--it's not a "choice." You don't just decide one day that you're a dude/chick in the wrong body.

I'm not sure if I understand...ilovellamas said that transsexuals decide to change genders because society places certain stigmas and reputations for each gender that they may not feel comfortable living with. I agree with that and totally see why someone would want to change their gender. But are they born to want to be the other gender, or is it shaped by society? Like, if society had none of those stigmas associated with genders would they still want to be the opposite gender? I've never known a transsexual so I don't know much about it.

Little_Miss_1565
09-06-2008, 10:19 PM
I'm not sure if I understand...ilovellamas said that transsexuals decide to change genders because society places certain stigmas and reputations for each gender that they may not feel comfortable living with. I agree with that and totally see why someone would want to change their gender. But are they born to want to be the other gender, or is it shaped by society? Like, if society had none of those stigmas associated with genders would they still want to be the opposite gender? I've never known a transsexual so I don't know much about it.

No. The stigmas that society places on those of nontraditional gender is what causes craziness in people struggling to come to terms with the way they are, or if not craziness, then at least makes them feel like they have to repress it.

Society upholds two strict girls-pink/boys-blue definitions of gender, so no, I do not think that society has any part in anyone feeling like they were meant to be the opposite. If that was the case, there would be more cases like this and it wouldn't be rare.

Tyler Durden
09-06-2008, 10:25 PM
But I still don't understand, what part of the opposite gender they do exactly identify with, what part of them makes them feel like they belong in the other gender?

Little_Miss_1565
09-06-2008, 10:27 PM
But I still don't understand, what part of the opposite gender they do exactly identify with, what part of them makes them feel like they belong in the other gender?

There's no hard and fast rule about it. There's just something that has always made them feel like they're in the wrong body, which would make them different from other non-traditional gender roles like your run of the mill gays and lesbians.

lost_nvrfound
09-06-2008, 10:41 PM
Well, its like, society has these really set-in-stone rules for what a girl should be like and what a boy should be like. People start conditioning their kids at birth to be/think/act like a girl or boy is supposed to act. Girls are supposed to dress up and play with dolls. Boys are supposed to be rough and tumble and fatasize about being a super hero. We are not really given much of an option.

Its like, say you're a punk rock fan at heart, but everyone around you tells you that you should be listening to country and you do, but it doesn't feel right. Thats kind of how it is for people who aren't comfortable in their gender. People constantly send messages "boys are like this, girls are like that, and there should be no in between". But they'd rather be allowed to be like the other gender, but since its not ok to be a feminine male, they'd rather be female or vice versa. Thats kind of how it is.

EDIT: Oh, and the furries thing just makes me laugh. I say be as weird as you so desire. Life's more enjoyable that way. Just don't expect me to walk around in an animal costume...

Little_Miss_1565
09-06-2008, 10:51 PM
But they'd rather be allowed to be like the other gender, but since its not ok to be a feminine male, they'd rather be female or vice versa. Thats kind of how it is.

Not really...I mean, I have a lot of dude-ish tendencies but I still self-identify as very female. I think one of the main things that feminism has won women worldwide is that the definition of femininity has largely expanded, so that we can be strong and sensitive all at the same time. Whereas, the definition of masculinity seems to have shrunk, which is shameful.

A feminine male or a masculine female does not have to become transgendered in order to explore that side of themselves. If they've always felt they are trapped in the wrong body, though, that's what makes someone transgendered.

Llamas
09-06-2008, 10:52 PM
But I still don't understand, what part of the opposite gender they do exactly identify with, what part of them makes them feel like they belong in the other gender?

Well, it depends on the individual. The person I described earlier mentioned being emotional as a big part of it. She's always been a person who is very compassionate, cries a lot during movies and such, etc. When a guy acts like that, the general reaction is for people to call him a fag or something. She was never really into masculine things like sports, cars, etc... but more into things that girls are "supposed" to like. I'm sure it goes much deeper than this, but these are just a couple of examples. There's no clear-cut answer to what triggers it in people.

I definitely didn't expect the comment I made involving trans-gender to morph the thread like this... though at least the thread isn't about bashing furries anymore.

Llamas
09-06-2008, 11:00 PM
Just saw the couple posts before that one. I didn't mean that it's so simple as what I said... I think it's more that all these things build up. People like 1565 and myself might have tendencies and attributes that are guyish, but it's not overwhelming. I think that there would have to be an overwhelming majority of your feelings, views, etc of the other gender. Now I think we're getting into the differences between cross-dressers and people who actually have their gender physically changed.

lost_nvrfound
09-06-2008, 11:21 PM
Not really...I mean, I have a lot of dude-ish tendencies but I still self-identify as very female. I think one of the main things that feminism has won women worldwide is that the definition of femininity has largely expanded, so that we can be strong and sensitive all at the same time. Whereas, the definition of masculinity seems to have shrunk, which is shameful.

A feminine male or a masculine female does not have to become transgendered in order to explore that side of themselves. If they've always felt they are trapped in the wrong body, though, that's what makes someone transgendered.

I wasn't saying they'd have to become transgender to explore the other side... My dad sometimes calls me the son he didn't have (my brother was not much into building stuff, fixing things, learning about cars and all that, where as I have always been but I love being female and strongly identify with that, I just like to cross the line a little on what society says should be male interests.)

I was trying to say that people who feel the need to change, can't really identify with any of the rules of their gender, and they feel that the way to make themselves feel in a position where they belong is to change over to the other gender to find comfort.

Endymion
09-06-2008, 11:23 PM
i'm not sure if this trivializes it or not, but i've always though of transgenderism as akin to being a pepsi person in a coke world.

lost_nvrfound
09-06-2008, 11:23 PM
Now I think we're getting into the differences between cross-dressers and people who actually have their gender physically changed.

In a lot of studies, people have found that most cross-dressers just like the clothes better.

Little_Miss_1565
09-06-2008, 11:29 PM
i'm not sure if this trivializes it or not, but i've always though of transgenderism as akin to being a pepsi person in a coke world.

That's actually a kind of awesomely haiku sort of way to think about it.

0r4ng3
09-07-2008, 12:20 AM
I have nothing else to add to this thread.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/aversion_fads.png

bighead384
09-07-2008, 12:58 AM
I have a somewhat weird fetish.

bighead384
09-07-2008, 01:11 AM
But I still don't understand, what part of the opposite gender they do exactly identify with, what part of them makes them feel like they belong in the other gender?

Yeah, mean either.

Conspiracyof1000
09-07-2008, 01:27 AM
I've never actually ran into a furry in real life, but I can't imagine myself reacting more than when I run into a homosexual. I don't care what a person does, as long as it's not in front of me. That includes people who believe they're animals...

Oxygene
09-07-2008, 02:47 AM
OK a few things 'cause now I'm interested after having read the entire thread:

1) Furries: what is it they do / believe / think? What is the fetish about

2) I'm glad to see that there is some sense of correctness and reality in the board members, when it comes to this sector of discrimination.. to bad it looks being personally effected by it is a requirement, but it's defiantly a light at the end of the tunnel for sane thinking.

3) Transgender: before anyone gets on my case because of my opinion let me state that I have no problem with victimless sexual deviations, especially if I'm not forcibly made aware.

What I don't get based on what you guys are saying is...

"These peoples like totally feel like you know insane because of society's rules for the sex they were born. Theyz goz crazy act weird and don't FEEL good. They thinks these rules are wrong and can't fit in. Society makes them feel bad."

So what do they do?

They fucking please the requirements society has for the other gender!

Wouldn't the natural and intelligent reaction be disowning these rules and not giving a fuck? Instead of adopting the other side of the same set of rules THAT ARE RUINING YOUR LIFE?

Chris Rock said something really smart about western societies and the problems they encounter, he narrowed it a bit further to food but it has a universal application

"Do you think anyone in Rwanda 's got a fucking lactose intolerance?"

All in all, I'm sure this problem is real for a whole bunch of people... Some men want to be women, and some women want to be men. BUT anyone who argues that social stigmas are the problem, then devotes his/her entire life to actually fit into to a social niche is just fucking stupid. Even if the said person is a victim who you can generally feel bad for, and isn't at blame.

And that might be the reason that many of these people aren't satisfied in the long run.. they don't qualify as normal, and changing and tweaking a few things will help them out short term, but after that high wears off they might and do have problems again - maybe not as serious.

I think the most we can do for the ones that are our friends is tell them we accept them no matter what, and tell them society is going to make them crazy pretty much no matter what, and they shouldn't give a fuck really.

Little_Miss_1565
09-07-2008, 08:42 AM
Oxy, you're not quite getting some of the finer points of the social gender quandary. Being a man and feeling that you're supposed to be a woman and not just gay or a crossdresser or something less transgressive is extremely controversial for most segments of society. Llamas even said that when she mentioned that, she was oversimplifying the situation. The social gender binary is not what causes gender dysphoria, but rather what makes it deeply problematic for the people who have it.

T-6005
09-07-2008, 09:04 AM
I think pink's pretty cool, myself. And I have been a part of a discussion about whether Simba is or isn't the hottest Disney animal.

Oh shit.

Sunny
09-07-2008, 09:07 AM
But I still don't understand, what part of the opposite gender they do exactly identify with, what part of them makes them feel like they belong in the other gender?

i'm assuming you're a guy... so ok, imagine having a penis feels wrong. really really wrong, like it's some weird alien dangle that really shouldn't be there. like what you feel inside doesn't match up on the outside. you know when you hit puberty and started developing secondary sex characteristics? imagine what it would be like if it all felt wrong and fucked up. i'm sure when your facial hair started growing or your voice started deepening, you were pretty much OK with it. imagine being terrified and grossed out by these changes, and feeling like your body has been taken over by a force you don't want and do not identify with. imagine what it would feel like if the closer you got to looking like and being an adult male, the more disturbed and unhappy you were with the way your body is developing.

this is not about being a "tomboy" or being gay or being a feminine guy. it's about a dissonance between the sex you feel you are and the actual sex characteristics displayed by your body.

i don't get how this is so hard to understand. if i had a penis and a deep voice and facial hair, i would be so fucking freaked out by it and i would want to "get out" of that body as soon as possible.

Oxygene
09-07-2008, 09:51 AM
Oxy, you're not quite getting some of the finer points of the social gender quandary. Being a man and feeling that you're supposed to be a woman and not just gay or a crossdresser or something less transgressive is extremely controversial for most segments of society. Llamas even said that when she mentioned that, she was oversimplifying the situation. The social gender binary is not what causes gender dysphoria, but rather what makes it deeply problematic for the people who have it.

OK...

and what do furries do? :)

bighead384
09-07-2008, 10:30 AM
I've decided I just don't belong in this sex change conversation. I'm not gonna seriously hate on one of them if I meet one, but I just personally don't think I care for it. I'm just not sure I think it makes sense to do that. Maybe someday I'll change my mind.

Conspiracyof1000
09-07-2008, 10:17 PM
OK...

and what do furries do? :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom

They do a lot of crazy stuff.
I don't know if that's what you were looking for.

WebDudette
09-07-2008, 10:29 PM
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a145/SystemSloth/aversion_fads.png

Little_Miss_1565
09-07-2008, 10:31 PM
I've decided I just don't belong in this sex change conversation. I'm not gonna seriously hate on one of them if I meet one, but I just personally don't think I care for it. I'm just not sure I think it makes sense to do that. Maybe someday I'll change my mind.

Oh wait, I know! This is the part where I get to hate on an imaginary conspiracy of anti-intellectuals, right?


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a145/SystemSloth/aversion_fads.png

Ring ring...20 posts ago called. ;)

WebDudette
09-07-2008, 10:41 PM
Haha! I thought I had went through this thread, I also thought about how strange it was that I hadn't already seen it posted by or4ng3.

Now, be honest. Did you quote it so I wouldn't be able to delete it?

Anyway, I'm actually pretty open to whatever someone wants to be, its none of my business what should I care. As long as they aren't actually fucking animals (which I understand most of them do not) then its cool. But that doesn't mean I actually want to discuss your interest.

Many pedophiles do not plan on ever having sex with children, but they are still attracted to them. Let me ask you this, is that not very similar?

0r4ng3
09-07-2008, 10:55 PM
Many pedophiles do not plan on ever having sex with children, but they are still attracted to them.
I know I'm just arguing semantics, but that means that they're not pedophiles.

Okay, now I have nothing else to add to this thread.

bighead384
09-07-2008, 10:56 PM
Oh wait, I know! This is the part where I get to hate on an imaginary conspiracy of anti-intellectuals, right?



Ring ring...20 posts ago called. ;)

Stop baiting. I'm was just being honest, and I honestly don't want to talk about people who get surgery for a dick or vagina at this time.

WebDudette
09-07-2008, 10:56 PM
I'm pretty sure being sexually attracted to a child is grounds for being a pedophile.

Little_Miss_1565
09-07-2008, 11:10 PM
Stop baiting. I'm was just being honest, and I honestly don't want to talk about people who get surgery for a dick or vagina at this time.

Alright, you're right. I was annoyed but I shouldn't have said anything.

bighead384
09-07-2008, 11:18 PM
Alright, you're right. I was annoyed but I shouldn't have said anything.

It's all good. Look, I'm sorry, but to me, this isn't simply an issue of acceptance out of basic human decency. It's a decision that is very uncommon and harder to understand because it's complicated. Maybe if I took a gender studies course or if I did some more research I would feel differently. It seems to me that at this point in time, most people would HAVE to do that in order to understand sex changes. But for now, I don't even come close to understanding it, which is why I felt I should say no more.

Little_Miss_1565
09-07-2008, 11:32 PM
It's all good. Look, I'm sorry, but to me, this isn't simply an issue of acceptance out of basic human decency. It's a decision that is very uncommon and harder to understand because it's complicated. Maybe if I took a gender studies course or if I did some more research I would feel differently. It seems to me that at this point in time, most people would HAVE to do that in order to understand sex changes. But for now, I don't even come close to understanding it, which is why I felt I should say no more.

I've never taking formal gender studies classes, though I went to Mount Holyoke College so maybe that's kind of like one large formal gender studies class, I guess. Really what it comes down to IS simply an issue of acceptance out of basic human decency. The complication comes from individuals being attached to social constructs that ultimately serve no real purpose but to control the population. Maybe that's the part that people need the construction of a formal course to get around.

Betty
09-08-2008, 12:13 AM
Some interesting points.

I agree that it's largely an acceptance issue, and sure, I can accept what people choose to do (as long as it's not hurting anyone, etc). Fine.

But there's a difference between accepting and understanding. And I can come to terms with the fact that I'll never understand some things without living them myself. But there's another level. There's also the issue of whether I think something is a rational human choice.

I guess I see things from the point of view of a scientist. I used to have issues with homosexuality, but I've since realized that there is very likely a scientific explanation for why some people are gay. So that makes perfect sense. I don't think somebody's a weirdo for being gay. It's genetic.

But regarding the transgender issue, I think I might partly agree with Oxy. I feel that the way Brianna and Sarah were explaining things did not really make sense to me. It doesn't seem like a reasonable choice for somebody to change sexes because they don't feel like they fit into the gender roles imposed by society. And a poster a while back made that point. If society had NOT imposed gender roles, would they still feel like they were in the wrong body? I think what Magdalena said makes a lot more sense. I can understand just FEELING like you're in the wrong body. Well, I can't really understand it, because I can't relate, but I can see how that could make sense. And from a scientific point of view, it makes sense that something hormonal or genetic just got fucked up at some point. If somebody just simply doesn't like associating with a certain gender, I can accept them changing sexes cause they can do whatever, but I still think it's a silly choice and I would think that they might have some sort of mental imbalance (which I guess would be a scientific explanation for that one).

Furries? I guess I'd group that in the fetish category. And I guess if I think about it, I kinda like the idea of fetishes, so I can't completely write it off as totally wacko. And I mean, how different is it than living vicariously through RPGs? Or hell, to bring it down another notch, maybe it's just a step up from having an online "persona."

But then Pilz brings up a good point. Can people draw a line? Do we say bestiality and pedophilia are wrong because the other party isn't consenting? Is that the only reason? Or is there some level of ultimate morality? (No, that is just WRONG.)

(I guess my stance on this one would be that I'd have to say that ANYTHING can be accepted, as long as all parties are consenting - I just want to know if everyone agrees.)

Endymion
09-08-2008, 12:20 AM
I'm pretty sure being sexually attracted to a child is grounds for being a pedophile.

say what?!

WebDudette
09-08-2008, 12:21 AM
Yes, that means you too endy.

Superdope
09-08-2008, 12:26 AM
Denmark is the only country in the world where it is allowed to have sex with an animal, as long as the animal doesn't suffer from it.

Little_Miss_1565
09-08-2008, 12:33 AM
It doesn't seem like a reasonable choice for somebody to change sexes because they don't feel like they fit into the gender roles imposed by society. And a poster a while back made that point. If society had NOT imposed gender roles, would they still feel like they were in the wrong body? I think what Magdalena said makes a lot more sense. I can understand just FEELING like you're in the wrong body. Well, I can't really understand it, because I can't relate, but I can see how that could make sense. And from a scientific point of view, it makes sense that something hormonal or genetic just got fucked up at some point. If somebody just simply doesn't like associating with a certain gender, I can accept them changing sexes cause they can do whatever, but I still think it's a silly choice and I would think that they might have some sort of mental imbalance (which I guess would be a scientific explanation for that one).

Magdalena put a much better point on it as, I already mentioned, gender roles imposed by society are not the cause of the gender dysphoria but rather a lot of the heartache that goes along with it. To answer your rhetorical question, gender is a social construct so if society had not imposed it, gender dysphoria probably wouldn't exist. Sex is a given at birth (unless you're intersexed, but even that's something given to you at birth). If, by the time you are self-aware you feel that there is an insurmountable disconnect between your gender and your sex, then there we are. In a society where gender was not defined and controlled, there wouldn't be a disconnect because there would be nothing to connect it to and compare with one's sex.

The gender binary, controlling and limiting as it may be, is also our only language to describe certain characteristics, so before anyone says it's dumb to swap the trappings of one half of the binary for the other, a little story. It used to annoy me to no end that bulldykes on the quad would hate on me for my clearly feminine aspect because I was playing into the binary, meanwhile they were also playing into the binary by wearing only men's clothing and having crew cuts. Kind of like how feminism wasn't out to make it so that women could wear only pants, but rather so women could choose if they wanted to wear a skirt or pants. Getting away from the limiting aspects of the binary shouldn't mean shitting on it completely and walking away from it, but rather understanding its limits

And yes, changing sexes because a woman decided one day that being a dude might be kind of cool would be indicative of mental problems.

Betty
09-08-2008, 12:58 AM
Magdalena put a much better point on it as, I already mentioned, gender roles imposed by society are not the cause of the gender dysphoria but rather a lot of the heartache that goes along with it. To answer your rhetorical question, gender is a social construct so if society had not imposed it, gender dysphoria probably wouldn't exist. Sex is a given at birth (unless you're intersexed, but even that's something given to you at birth). If, by the time you are self-aware you feel that there is an insurmountable disconnect between your gender and your sex, then there we are. In a society where gender was not defined and controlled, there wouldn't be a disconnect because there would be nothing to connect it to and compare with one's sex.


See, I still feel like you're contradicting yourself. Or maybe I'm just missing something. So you're saying that gender roles imposed by society are NOT the cause of gender dysphoria, yet if society had not imposed gender, the dysphoria would not exist? If something else is causing the gender dysphoria, would it not still be an issue with or without gender "roles"?

I think I'm still thinking of it differently. I mean, how can you even have "gender dysphoria" if there are no gender roles? Hypothetically of course. The way I was thinking of it was more that you just didn't feel like you were in the right BODY, sex-wise, not gender-wise. The gender issue would be another story, which may or may not coincide. Especially if you go into issues like being "emotional" which arguably is a function of your sex/hormones, and not a societal construct. At least that's the way I understood what Magdalena was saying, and maybe she's off the mark on what's actually going on, but I was pointing out that that seemed to make more sense as an explanation, and didn't seem to jive with what you guys were saying.

Little_Miss_1565
09-08-2008, 01:13 AM
See, I still feel like you're contradicting yourself. Or maybe I'm just missing something. So you're saying that gender roles imposed by society are NOT the cause of gender dysphoria, yet if society had not imposed gender, the dysphoria would not exist? If something else is causing the gender dysphoria, would it not still be an issue with or without gender "roles"?

Gender roles do not cause gender dysphoria, no. Like I said, gender is a social construct that has no factual basis in who we are; it's just been linked arbitrarily to sex in our set of signifiers. The definition of gender as male or female comes from society. If someone is gendered male but sexed female, this would be gender dysphoria. Without the social definition of gender, this person would just be sexed female and it would mean nothing. So, without gender roles there would be no dysphoria, and yet the gender roles do not in and of themselves cause dysphoria.

Sunny
09-08-2008, 06:38 AM
But then Pilz brings up a good point. Can people draw a line? Do we say bestiality and pedophilia are wrong because the other party isn't consenting? Is that the only reason? Or is there some level of ultimate morality? (No, that is just WRONG.)

(I guess my stance on this one would be that I'd have to say that ANYTHING can be accepted, as long as all parties are consenting - I just want to know if everyone agrees.)

i would say that the issue would be consent and the ability to give consent while understanding all the implications. the way we define it, a child cannot give informed consent and neither can an animal.

i would never compare bestiality or pedophilia to being a furry. if two consenting adults want to replicate the mating rituals of the wooly mammoth, i might think it's gross and weird, but ultimately not *wrong*.

Sunny
09-08-2008, 07:05 AM
See, I still feel like you're contradicting yourself. Or maybe I'm just missing something. So you're saying that gender roles imposed by society are NOT the cause of gender dysphoria, yet if society had not imposed gender, the dysphoria would not exist? If something else is causing the gender dysphoria, would it not still be an issue with or without gender "roles"?

I think I'm still thinking of it differently. I mean, how can you even have "gender dysphoria" if there are no gender roles? Hypothetically of course. The way I was thinking of it was more that you just didn't feel like you were in the right BODY, sex-wise, not gender-wise. The gender issue would be another story, which may or may not coincide. Especially if you go into issues like being "emotional" which arguably is a function of your sex/hormones, and not a societal construct. At least that's the way I understood what Magdalena was saying, and maybe she's off the mark on what's actually going on, but I was pointing out that that seemed to make more sense as an explanation, and didn't seem to jive with what you guys were saying.

my understanding (which is obviously limited) is that it goes like this:

- there is no *actual* link between biological sex and gender presentation. as in, "masculinity" and "femininity" are social constructs.

- in a trans person, their external sex characteristics do not "match" the way they feel about themselves. that, in itself, is very traumatic.

- in addition to them being "stuck in the wrong body" so to speak, society expects them to keep up a perfect gender presentation corresponding to the sex of their organs (which they don't identify with in the first place).

- so, for example, a boy who feels like he is a girl is still expected to fit into a very narrow mold of what socially acceptable "boyhood" is supposed to be about.

- if they fail at this task, they face violence, bullying, homophobia, etc. many trans people are bullied for being "gay" even though they actually aren't.

- even after they transition, trans people have to be concerned with gender-related issues such as "passing" - fitting into the mold of what society expects a male or a female to look or act like. a "butch" transwoman who looks "manly" is more likely to be a target of violence than a transwoman who is "feminine".

i think in a world with no strict gender roles, transsexualism would still exist, because - in my understanding - it's a sex organ/brain function mixup. however, the life of trans people would be much easier, as they wouldn't face as much hatred and violence for not fitting into arbitrary gender roles. if gender were fluid, people wouldn't be so terrified of "freaks" and wouldn't be so tremendously uncomfortable around people who don't "pass" or fit into the gender binary.

does that make sense? ;p

leo3375
09-08-2008, 12:05 PM
Meh. Furries don't bother me. They're basically an off-shoot of the sci-fi nerds who go to the conventions dressed as their favorite characters. And the whole "yiff" thing is blown out of proportion.

So I have no problems with furries whatsoever. I'm not one myself, but I've met a few and they're very normal-acting people. Almost all I've met are phenominal artists, too.

Sofinch
09-08-2008, 12:36 PM
didn't knew what is was
and I never saw it before
but nice (or not) 2 know what it is now

Little_Miss_1565
09-08-2008, 12:40 PM
brilliance and light

luv u hunnybunny