PDA

View Full Version : MILFs



Sunny
10-12-2008, 04:20 PM
ok, the whole Sarah Palin thing got me thinking. it seems that many of my friends/acquaintances are really attracted to MILFs, or the idea of hooking up with a MILF, or whatever.

so i ask you, citizens... do you find the MILF/older woman thing to be hot?

see, it confuses me. personally, as far as age-related attractions go, i'm cool with the "older man" thing. or the.. hrm... young college co-ed thing. but older women? soccer/hockey moms? mew. i dunno.

anyone? thoughts?

Betty
10-12-2008, 04:36 PM
I think it's harder to speak on this topic as a woman. But I can take a few stabs at it.

I'd imagine that for say, a more mature young man, say a successful ambitious 25 year old, perhaps he'd be completely sick of ditzy women his age and could think a 35 year old woman might have a little more of the level-headedness he might want out of a partner. (This works both ways for the sexes cause obviously the range of maturities out there is quite widely distributed).

Or the sexual experience of an older woman could be a draw if one were to look at the sexual motivations.

Biologically it makes more sense for women to be attracted to older men, and older men to younger women (as regards the whole women should have babies younger, and older men are more better suited to support those babies issue), so that's probably why that type of relationship is more common.

Free?
10-12-2008, 05:12 PM
Of course I find some 10-15 years older women appealing! That's a natural thing that happened all the time with humankind, I don't see anything too crazy or odd here. Should we start explaining what "sexuality" could include? :rolleyes:

Rag Doll
10-12-2008, 05:30 PM
eh. i dont get it when its like...a hockey mom or a soccer mom or whatever. just the image i get from that screams unattractive and dowdy and buh. i mean, i could see myself having a thing for an older woman (mid to late 30s, perhaps) if she was smart and successful and like...hot. and with no kids. which i guess takes away the idea of a MILF.

on a semi-related note, when i was younger (middle school - high school) a lot of my female friends had the hots for my dad. so gross.

nieh
10-12-2008, 05:36 PM
The general idea of MILFs doesn't really do anything, but if someone manages to stay hot after having a couple kids then that's awesome for them.

Jakebert
10-12-2008, 05:37 PM
MILFs are hot, but I personally prefer girls my age that dress like grandmas.

Endymion
10-12-2008, 05:45 PM
i'm purely a VPILF type of guy.

JohnnyNemesis
10-12-2008, 05:46 PM
MILFs are hot, but I personally prefer girls my age that dress like grandmas.

http://www.mitchclem.com/nothingnice/comics/20070430.gif

nieh
10-12-2008, 05:51 PM
I was thinking of posting that strip as well.

Llamas
10-12-2008, 06:04 PM
I personally don't get it. I prefer women closer to my own age, and without children. What nieh said makes perfect sense, but I don't see how having kids would make a woman more attractive.

JohnnyNemesis
10-12-2008, 06:06 PM
It's the hard to get thing. Older women with kids are not "supposed" to be sexually desired, and so they are.

wheelchairman
10-12-2008, 06:44 PM
I think it has to do with sex as a kind of buffet.

You only got like 80 years to live and you want to try everything offered.

Cock Joke
10-12-2008, 07:55 PM
That's always been a fetish of mine.

Llamas
10-12-2008, 08:06 PM
I think it has to do with sex as a kind of buffet.

You only got like 80 years to live and you want to try everything offered.

Like sheep, right?

wheelchairman
10-12-2008, 08:31 PM
That's only in less industrialized places, like Norway.

ninthlayer
10-12-2008, 09:17 PM
I think it has to do with sex as a kind of buffet.
It bothers me that no one pointed this out until now: it's a sex thing. Old bitches want the dick and young guys are more than willing to give it. It's easy. It works. No real reason to think about it beyond that.

Vera
10-12-2008, 11:46 PM
Yeah, it's a sex thing. I used to surf a fanfic site with original erotic stories and sometimes looked at that category for the lulz and it had a bunch of "my friend's mom & me" type stories. So yeah, it's a popular ..I don't want to say fetish but sexual fantasy if nothing else.

coke_a_holic
10-12-2008, 11:50 PM
Oedipus Complex.

arak0r
10-13-2008, 12:10 AM
dont necessarily need to have kids. its all about the cougar hunt.

The Search Button
10-13-2008, 02:29 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/el-profesor-freud.jpg

Budzy
10-13-2008, 02:37 AM
In a way, women are like red wine; the older the better.

H1T_That
10-13-2008, 07:16 AM
I don't see how having kids would make a woman more attractive.

It shows she puts out..LOL


It's the hard to get thing. Older women with kids are not "supposed" to be sexually desired, and so they are.
This


I think it has to do with sex as a kind of buffet.

You only got like 80 years to live and you want to try everything offered.
This


That's only in less industrialized places, like Norway.
This, lol.


dont necessarily need to have kids. its all about the cougar hunt.
And most importantly this one.

Vera
10-13-2008, 07:34 AM
dont necessarily need to have kids. its all about the cougar hunt.
Yeah because a woman past 45 might as well be an animal for having sexual desires, omfg.

wheelchairman
10-13-2008, 07:36 AM
Maybe you're reading a bit too much into that Sanni.

Although to be honest I'm not entirely sure what he meant, I don't think he was calling old women with sexual desires, animals though.

Vera
10-13-2008, 08:23 AM
I definitely am but the term annoys me anyway.

Endymion
10-13-2008, 10:23 AM
and the term "silver fox" boils your blood too, yes?

Sunny
10-13-2008, 11:27 AM
Of course I find some 10-15 years older women appealing! That's a natural thing that happened all the time with humankind, I don't see anything too crazy or odd here. Should we start explaining what "sexuality" could include? :rolleyes:

oh, fuck off.


Oedipus Complex.

ha! that's what my mens said, too.

anyways. thanks for shedding some light on the issue, everyone.

now:
cougar is effectively a sexist term because it implies an older woman's sexual desires are by their nature predatory. i still find the term lol-worthy and use it sometimes, but i have no doubts about its meaning. *shrug*

llamas, i didn't know you took fancy to the ladies! ;p

regarding sex as a buffet, i'm generalizing here, but i'd say that while "womankind" might be a buffet to heterosexual men, i dunno about "sex" per se. from what i've heard from my male friends, most would like to have sex with different women (milfs, cheerleaders, librarians, asians) but stick to the regular good ol' scenario. nothing too experimental, certainly.

F@ BANKZ
10-13-2008, 11:45 AM
In the case of Sarah Palin, I can only answer no. I might be a bit young for an older woman though.

wheelchairman
10-13-2008, 12:22 PM
cougar is effectively a sexist term because it implies an older woman's sexual desires are by their nature predatory. i still find the term lol-worthy and use it sometimes, but i have no doubts about its meaning. *shrug*
Probably, but as a guy it just makes older women sound gross. It's just a bad metaphor for older women, "cougar". It even sounds ugly. I would've gone with tiger, maybe. If I were forced to pick a large cat as a metaphor for older women.




regarding sex as a buffet, i'm generalizing here, but i'd say that while "womankind" might be a buffet to heterosexual men, i dunno about "sex" per se. from what i've heard from my male friends, most would like to have sex with different women (milfs, cheerleaders, librarians, asians) but stick to the regular good ol' scenario. nothing too experimental, certainly.
It wasn't so much that they actually accomplish their "checklist", it's that they often talk about and perhaps daydream about it. Most guys probably are reluctant to make things kinkier if that's what you mean, the variety I suppose would lie in the actors, not in the methods. But most often it is just a vague aspiration you talk about over lunch or something. Unless you're single, then you're forced to face the varying degrees of success with the ladies that you may or may not have.

lost_nvrfound
10-13-2008, 12:52 PM
I don't know. The whole milf thing never really made me wonder.

The one that really seems to get me is the whole mirrors on the ceiling thing.

I don't get it. Is it like watching a porno starring yourself?

KHWHD
10-13-2008, 12:58 PM
I don't know. The whole milf thing never really made me wonder.

The one that really seems to get me is the whole mirrors on the ceiling thing.

I don't get it. Is it like watching a porno starring yourself?

Yep, pretty much. A lot of people are into that. It wouldn't bother me to "watch" myself and my other half.

Sunny
10-13-2008, 01:18 PM
i definitely understand the appeal, but uh... try explaining that to people who visit and want to see your room. a wardrobe with mirrored doors = much better and less awkward. ;p

lost_nvrfound
10-13-2008, 01:29 PM
or imagine being the kid whose parents have ... extra... mirrors. Oh my!

awkward!

KHWHD
10-13-2008, 01:29 PM
i definitely understand the appeal, but uh... try explaining that to people who visit and want to see your room. a wardrobe with mirrored doors = much better and less awkward. ;p

You could always tell them you're vain and just like to admire yourself in your many many mirrors... haha.

lost_nvrfound
10-13-2008, 01:33 PM
You could always tell them you're vain and just like to admire yourself in your many many mirrors... haha.

oh but they'll know... they'll know... and you know thats all they'll be able to think about when you pop into their heads.

Its like, "oh terri, la la la la la... :eek:!" hehe...

Betty
10-13-2008, 01:59 PM
And the moral of the thread comes down to: men are very easy to understand.

nieh
10-13-2008, 02:07 PM
You could always tell them you're vain and just like to admire yourself in your many many mirrors... haha.

I have a feeling that's what most people would assume on their own, although in a more dirty way than you seem to be implying.

wheelchairman
10-13-2008, 02:09 PM
And the moral of the thread comes down to: men are very easy to understand.

Actually I was very baffled by your explanation :p

nieh
10-13-2008, 02:13 PM
For the record, I don't get the big deal about Palin's looks. Even when she was younger. Not that I find her ugly or anything, I just don't get why everyone thinks she's so hot.

WebDudette
10-13-2008, 02:33 PM
Mostly because she is a potential Vice President.

lost_nvrfound
10-13-2008, 02:35 PM
Mostly because she is a potential Vice President.

I don't see how anyone could find a politician attractive. I find the exact opposite. Yuck.

coke_a_holic
10-13-2008, 05:00 PM
Josh: Name a hotter Vice President.

And, no, Teddy Roosevelt don't count because he was the hottest President, which eliminates him from the Vice Presidential running.

nieh
10-13-2008, 05:12 PM
http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/George-Clinton-nv01.jpg
George Clinton

Llamas
10-13-2008, 07:47 PM
For the record, I don't get the big deal about Palin's looks. Even when she was younger. Not that I find her ugly or anything, I just don't get why everyone thinks she's so hot.


Mostly because she is a potential Vice President.

I keep hearing people saying "she's not even just hot as a politician, she's just straight up really hot". Even people on this bbs in the politics section were saying that. I really, really don't get it. Tina Fey? Hot. Sarah Palin? No. She's not ugly, and sure she's attractive for a potential VP (so is Obama), but she is in no way HOT.

Llamas
10-13-2008, 09:52 PM
llamas, i didn't know you took fancy to the ladies! ;p

lol, don't get too excited now. ;)

Sunny
10-14-2008, 01:34 AM
:(:(:(

;)

T-6005
10-14-2008, 09:01 AM
or imagine being the kid whose parents have ... extra... mirrors. Oh my!

awkward!
I never got people who assumed that if they thought about their parents' sex lives in any way, or figured they were doing something that wasn't straight up Mother Teresa approved, that it would haunt them the rest of their lives.

Big fucking deal.

On the entire older woman thing, I think the term MILF is a misnomer. Some older women are attractive, and it's a pretty simple logical leap from thinking some older women are attractive to wanting to have sex with those women. It's the same with women my own age who are attractive. It's just because they're attractive. I don't think about whether those women are mothers or not if (or rather when) I look them over. Now that would be a weird thought.

Then again, I suppose it could be just me. Maybe there are thousands and thousands out there who desire these women for their hockey-mom status, their "stability," and their supposedly larger sexual repertoire.

Also, the amount of Freud people went to in this thread for cheap laughs makes me want to vomit.

wheelchairman
10-14-2008, 09:49 AM
Agreed on the freud thing. I figured that when we're talking about MILFS we weren't automatically assuming mothers, just older women. There are some hot moms in Denmark, in great shape or whatever. You just try not to think about their vaginas. But then what do we actually know about it? Ive never tried to research vaginal damage post-natal, I'd rather not know. At all, ever.

Tisiacs
10-14-2008, 10:13 AM
Ive never tried to research vaginal damage post-natal, I'd rather not know. At all, ever.

I'm with ya there

The Search Button
10-15-2008, 04:21 AM
Agreed on the freud thing. I figured that when we're talking about MILFS we weren't automatically assuming mothers, just older women. There are some hot moms in Denmark, in great shape or whatever. You just try not to think about their vaginas. But then what do we actually know about it? Ive never tried to research vaginal damage post-natal, I'd rather not know. At all, ever.

Actually, Freud didn't right only about Oedipus Complex.

Check your sources.

wheelchairman
10-15-2008, 05:19 AM
Actually, Freud didn't right only about Oedipus Complex.

Check your sources.
I don't think I made that claim. I'm just saying that your use of Freud sucked.

HeadAroundU
10-15-2008, 08:08 AM
"Put His Little Tender Butt In There"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlK0Xd4c2c

My associations:
Palin, crazy Americans, creepy, disgusting, MILF I'd never hit.

lost_nvrfound
10-15-2008, 11:00 PM
I never got people who assumed that if they thought about their parents' sex lives in any way, or figured they were doing something that wasn't straight up Mother Teresa approved, that it would haunt them the rest of their lives.

Haha! well, you should've seen my friend when she realized what her parents "yoga" mats were for. :eek: (flat for the most part, with a foam, triangular end.)

Definitely one of the greater moments in my life

Bipolar Bear
10-16-2008, 01:19 AM
MILFs are hot.
Young girls are hot.
All girls are hot.


Does that answer the question?

The Search Button
10-16-2008, 02:35 AM
I don't think I made that claim. I'm just saying that your use of Freud sucked.

Really?

Pointing to a man who has studied the problem at hand, suckz?

I never knew how Mr. Sigmund looked like before this thread.

wheelchairman
10-16-2008, 03:14 AM
Oh yes you posted his picture to make the point that this is the picture of a man who has studied MILFs?

Are you fucking retarded. You went for a shitty joke and you know it.

The Search Button
10-16-2008, 04:24 AM
Oh yes you posted his picture to make the point that this is the picture of a man who has studied MILFs?

Are you fucking retarded. You went for a shitty joke and you know it.

Actually, Freud didn't study MILF's, but the human psiche.

I'm sorry you didn't like the joke. Let's not start a forum war about that.

lost_nvrfound
10-16-2008, 04:34 PM
I figured that when we're talking about MILFS we weren't automatically assuming mothers, just older women.

Just to point out, MILF does stand for Mom I'd Like to Fuck.

And I don't get the joke. Was it in response to someone posting "oedipus complex"?

wheelchairman
10-16-2008, 04:45 PM
It had to do with wanting to fuck your mother in some abstract form.

Yes I'm aware what it stands for. However in every day usage it seems far more applicable to women more than a decade older than you. At a different stage in life perhaps.

I mean there are teenage mothers, but I wouldn't call them MILFs usually....

lost_nvrfound
10-16-2008, 05:29 PM
siiiigh... was that really intended to be funny? people misrepresent the idea behind the oedipus complex too often... Its pretty straight forward. But to some, Freud is god when it comes to psychology, while others find him to be a total joke. I'm on the fence. He had some good ideas.

I guess MILF would refer most directly to like your best friends mom. A mom from your parents generation I guess.

wheelchairman
10-16-2008, 05:41 PM
While reading an article on Deconstructionism (you might think I sound smart throwing out that term, but I never truly understood deconstructionism, and I don't think anyone could without devoting a very large amount of time to it)

however the article said "literature analysis is probably the only field where Marx or Freud are still relevant."

I don't know much about psychology so I can't comment. Marx as a foundation for studying political science is great. A lot of works build off of Marx or are influenced by Marx (as an analysis, not ideology).

Still I enjoyed that quote.

lost_nvrfound
10-16-2008, 05:52 PM
I'd hate to be the one to try and decide his relevancy. So much of psychology is rooted in his ideas, whether they are trying to reinforce them or negate them.

And I can't really say much about Marx as I know very little of him and his work. Politics in general have never really been a focus of mine.

Sunny
10-16-2008, 06:25 PM
honestly, i am no expert, but from what i've seen, people's "mommy/daddy" issues can severely impact their relationships with the opposite sex. after all, the parent is the first person to shape your views of men/women. while the statement "MILF lovers just want to bang their moms" is simplistic at best, i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as bullshit.

lost_nvrfound
10-16-2008, 06:50 PM
honestly, i am no expert, but from what i've seen, people's "mommy/daddy" issues can severely impact their relationships with the opposite sex. after all, the parent is the first person to shape your views of men/women. while the statement "MILF lovers just want to bang their moms" is simplistic at best, i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as bullshit.

At first glance maybe, but the oedipus complex is merely a part of development in a child. Something that grows and then fades within just a couple of years. And its not an affliction like the statement implies. You don't go about for your entire life looking for that mom/dad substitute.

But then I kind of contradict myself by saying that the image of one's opposite sex parent is very often similar to that of the people they often find attractive. My brother dates short, heavy-set brunettes. My mother is short, heavy set, and a brunette. My father married to heavy-set brunettes. His mother was a heavy set brunette. This is a very common pattern as we all know.

I, however, like average height blondes. My father is neither average or blonde. I am sure there is some theory that goes along with all of that to explain how that is still caused by oedipal type emotions.

Sunny
10-17-2008, 07:48 AM
i think both Oedipus and Electra complexes - and hell, a child's entire psychosexual development - are far more complicated than just the desire for a mate who looks like the parent.

also, yes, they might be phases that happened back in childhood, but Freud also introduces the concept of Nachtraglichkeit, which is basically deferred/retroactive impact. meaning, the impact of the trauma/realization doesn't fully "hit" the person until after they have greater capacity to understand it or react to it. at least, that's my interpretation of it. i'm certainly open to hearing yours.

Grimesy da Offspringfan
10-17-2008, 07:51 AM
What about GILFs? XD Grandma i'd like to...XD

lost_nvrfound
10-17-2008, 09:42 AM
i think both Oedipus and Electra complexes - and hell, a child's entire psychosexual development - are far more complicated than just the desire for a mate who looks like the parent.
Well I figured this was a given, thus the reference to it that somebody made early on in this thread was a little misguided and a major oversimplification of the whole idea.


also, yes, they might be phases that happened back in childhood, but Freud also introduces the concept of Nachtraglichkeit, which is basically deferred/retroactive impact. meaning, the impact of the trauma/realization doesn't fully "hit" the person until after they have greater capacity to understand it or react to it. at least, that's my interpretation of it. i'm certainly open to hearing yours.

but, this new... uhh... understanding i suppose... is not usually going to lead to renewed desires toward the parent in question. An unresolved Oedipal complex is more going to affect the relationship and the ability to identify with the same sex parent. A big part of the picture, is that when the child realizes that they can't have the complete and total love of the opposite sex parent, they then turn to the same sex parent as a means to self-identify, which spurs the development of their morals and view of right and wrong. If they are never able to get past the attraction to the one parent, then the bond with the same gender parent will never be able to fully develop and thus, many of the rules their parents live by, will never fully be ingrained into their super-ego. This is going to lead more to reckless behavior than anything else.

If the child is able to resolve the subconscious feelings toward their mom/dad, then its not really likely that such a thing will ever come into question.

I feel like I did a poor job explaining what I mean, like a badly written Wikipedia article or something.

Either way, people focus far too much on the Oedipus complex. People like the controversy of it, but there are other very important things that get overlooked because of it.

T-6005
10-18-2008, 12:23 PM
The Oedipus and Electra complexes are a part of identity building. They're not as simple as wanting to bang one's parent. Neither are they something ridiculously horrible and wrong - they're a natural phase of childhood.

Simplified, what happens in the case of boys is that they form a dependent bond with the mother based on all that lovely nurturing, and once they are weaned want to return to that sort of thing - being cared for whenever they want. So essentially that leads to desires of reclaiming a bond with the mother. Since in the eyes of the child the father comes out as having the closest bond with the mother, and since that bond is primarily sexual, he enters into a phase of competition with the father, attempting to emulate him and be better at everything and stimulating feelings of attachment for the mother. That essentially makes his father the mold for his own personality, and later, once drive repression begins, his role model.

Ultra-simplified, but let's run with it.

Also, Freud had nothing to say on the subject of the Electra complex. To him little girls were also attached to their mothers in the same way. Someone else flipped it around later (or maybe concurrently).

lost_nvrfound
10-19-2008, 01:55 AM
You did a much better job at explaining it than I did, but thats basically what I was thinking. I'm no good putting my thoughts into words (there is a reason I have no desire to teach or tutor anyone in anything. :D)

And, yeah... Freud was a douchebag towards women. Fuck penis envy!(:eek: that sounds so dirty) I'm quite happy without one. :p Was it Carl Jung who introduced the Electra Complex? I think it was him...

lil_punk_rawker
10-20-2008, 05:00 AM
You can study me if u like :p
I ONLY like older guys and have done for quite a long time. I'm really interested in this subject actually.

arak0r
10-21-2008, 11:31 PM
after reading this thread over again, and seeing that people seem to read way too much into the term cougar, i just enjoyed a good laugh. oh this board.

lost_nvrfound
10-22-2008, 09:31 AM
http://weblogs.cltv.com/entertainment/tv/metromix/cougar.jpg

I honestly don't see what people have against the reference... Is it really just me who thinks that is one beautiful cat?

Rag Doll
10-22-2008, 10:02 AM
"Cougar" makes a woman's sexual desires into something animal-like. She wants it all the time, cannot be satisfied, and will have sex with anyone at anytime. This leads to the idea that all women want it and therefore men should just give it to them (ie: rape). It also shows the prude vs. whore dichotomy that women face. Either you're a nice wholesome June Cleaver-esque soccer mom that isn't sexual at all and bakes cookies...or you're a cougar. No in between, for a lot of society. Also, there's no similar term for men, really. They're just applauded for being 40something and banging a college girl.

lost_nvrfound
10-22-2008, 10:11 AM
hmm...ok. Well I can see your point.

wheelchairman
10-22-2008, 10:16 AM
I might be out of touch with American society. You read all that in the term "cougar"?

And there are terms for guys who are just mindless people who want sex all the time, they're called Latinos. (lol pwn3d Ricky).

Rag Doll
10-22-2008, 10:19 AM
I might be out of touch with American society. You read all that in the term "cougar"?

I'm a women's studies major. It's what I do. ;p

Sunny
10-22-2008, 10:28 AM
I might be out of touch with American society. You read all that in the term "cougar"?

Well, it's either that you are out of touch with American society, or just disinterested in dissecting language and the way it evolves. Analyzing linguistic phenomena is not something all Americans are interested in, after all... just ask Gov Palin :)
I guess some of us (at least Sam and I) believe that language doesn't develop arbitrarily or in a completely innocent, disconnected manner apart from society. There are preconceived notions about womens' sexual agency and what it should entail. A cougar is a predator... correct? "Cougardom" implies hunting for prey (that being younger men) and stepping outside of the bounds of what a middle aged woman's sexual behavior should be. people often use other "hunting" metaphors when using the term "cougar" - a cougar is on the prowl; then she pounces. urban dictionary tells us she is "gearing up to sink her claws (into a younger man)". if you genuinely believe the choice of words is coincidental, then maybe Denmark IS a happier place than the rest of the world.

also, this kind of analysis is not just a domain of women's studies majors and feminist thinkers. have you been paying attention to the US election? the importance of semantics and "hot words" is tremendous. whether that's a good thing or not is not up to me to decide.

lost_nvrfound
10-22-2008, 10:42 AM
Well, I really do think its connotations aren't entirely unfounded. Like, when you think of a woman being called a "cougar", you do get that feel of a "predator on the prowl" but not just any old MILF is going to be called a cougar. One that makes it a part of her routine to sleep with the new 25-year-old pool boy would. I don't think the two ideas are inherently connected. A woman who is called a cougar would be one who regularly seeks to satisfy her carnal desires in a younger man.

Sunny
10-22-2008, 10:51 AM
right, but what do you call older men who attend bars and clubs looking to, as you put it, "satisfy their carnal desires" with young women? there is no term - derogatory or not - for that man. especially not a term that compares him to a predator.

Rag Doll
10-22-2008, 10:53 AM
Not true. I've been in a bar and seen a few older women together having drinks and just talking, not seeming to look for any male attention at all, and people I was with and people seated near me referred to them as "cougars." Because clearly if they are in a bar, they are looking for it.

Also, why does there need to be a name for a woman that wants to have sex with a man that is younger than her? Why can't it just be accepted? Instead, people need to make a big fuss about it because she's stepping out of her society defined role. Women are not "allowed" to seek sex without repercussions of some sort.

*edit*
this was directed at lost_nvrfound, not Sunnies.

JohnnyNemesis
10-22-2008, 11:04 AM
And there are terms for guys who are just mindless people who want sex all the time, they're called Latinos. (lol pwn3d Ricky).

I saw that one coming from miles away, and I STILL lol'd!

Still, nothing is as funny as arak0r accusing someone else of being too sensitive. That shit is pure gold right there.

HeadAroundU
10-22-2008, 11:20 AM
right, but what do you call older men who attend bars and clubs looking to, as you put it, "satisfy their carnal desires" with young women? there is no term - derogatory or not - for that man. especially not a term that compares him to a predator.
We have to wait till Sinister grows up. Then we will have it.

Oh, btw, I have a prey!

JohnnyNemesis
10-22-2008, 11:30 AM
right, but what do you call older men who attend bars and clubs looking to, as you put it, "satisfy their carnal desires" with young women? there is no term - derogatory or not - for that man. especially not a term that compares him to a predator.

Actually, there are about a bajillion of those terms.

But the key difference in my opinion is that men don't always get flack for that kind of behavior, whereas women almost always get flack for even being sexual at all. It's fucked up and aint right. My beef aint with the word cougar, personally, it's with the fact that women aren't even allowed to be sexual without some kind of derogatory remarks flung their way.

wheelchairman
10-22-2008, 11:30 AM
Well, it's either that you are out of touch with American society, or just disinterested in dissecting language and the way it evolves. Analyzing linguistic phenomena is not something all Americans are interested in, after all... just ask Gov Palin :)
I guess some of us (at least Sam and I) believe that language doesn't develop arbitrarily or in a completely innocent, disconnected manner apart from society. There are preconceived notions about womens' sexual agency and what it should entail. A cougar is a predator... correct? "Cougardom" implies hunting for prey (that being younger men) and stepping outside of the bounds of what a middle aged woman's sexual behavior should be. people often use other "hunting" metaphors when using the term "cougar" - a cougar is on the prowl; then she pounces. urban dictionary tells us she is "gearing up to sink her claws (into a younger man)". if you genuinely believe the choice of words is coincidental, then maybe Denmark IS a happier place than the rest of the world.

also, this kind of analysis is not just a domain of women's studies majors and feminist thinkers. have you been paying attention to the US election? the importance of semantics and "hot words" is tremendous. whether that's a good thing or not is not up to me to decide.
I have at least a passing familiarity with Deconstruction and am fairly comfortable with Discourse Analysis. I'm well aware of the connotations of the term cougar applied to an older woman. I just think it's a bit of a leap to use the use of the word as a justification for rape. That is a stretch... I also don't think it's necessarily oppressive or sexist if the first thing a guy thinks about when he sees a woman at a bar is sex. It would however be annoying (and from experience, is) if that's all he talked about.

Of course in Sam's example (which obviously I wasn't a witness to but I'll take her word for it) is extreme. If that kind of behavior (automatically assuming that older women at a bar means they want to get all the younger guys they can) is normal in the states, then I had absolutely no idea. It's certainly not normal in Copenhagen.

Obviously I can't comment on the use of such terms in the US, it's completely out of context for me.

I can however comment on the use of "hot terms" in the American media. I miss the news back when it was boring and not every single story, event and comment was a sensational event. It's really bizarre for me to watch any American news program.

Rag Doll
10-22-2008, 11:57 AM
I just think it's a bit of a leap to use the use of the word as a justification for rape. That is a stretch...

Of course in Sam's example (which obviously I wasn't a witness to but I'll take her word for it) is extreme. If that kind of behavior (automatically assuming that older women at a bar means they want to get all the younger guys they can) is normal in the states, then I had absolutely no idea. It's certainly not normal in Copenhagen.

It's not the word. It's the idea behind the word. And that idea permeates society as a whole. The idea, seen with "cougar," is all women want it. So, why not give it to them? It isn't just that word, but....yeah. I think you get what I'm saying without me trying to explain further and repeating myself.

Anyways, as for my example....I'm not sure if "cougar" was used a lot in some teen movie recently (I don't watch anything like "Superbad" or what have you), but it's just....jesus. It's so common for guys to assume any older woman in a bar or a store where mainly younger people shop is a "cougar." The term is just flung around constantly. If an older woman is wearing a lot of makeup that is reminiscent of a college girl....cougar. If she is perhaps "too nice" to a waiter or a bartender (even when she's clearly just being nice and not hitting on him)....cougar. It's ridiculous.

wheelchairman
10-22-2008, 12:01 PM
Well the word obviously exists to explain a concept of some kind. It does not however seem to be any kind of umbrella term for women as a whole (at least for me.) The fact that it exists is harmless enough. It's not an implication for all women, just for one specific woman. And actually on the topic of this, I guess I have been living in Denmark too long. I just read a collection of surveys by Americans (particularly authors and artists but also professors etc.) who have lived in Denmark for quite some time (the book was published in 1990) and they all mention how Danish society views sex really as..more of a way to have fun, than a dirty sex act that sullies the woman and gives the man status. (They all lived in relatively large towns though, the attitude may be different in smaller Danish towns.) So I can see how the term cougar in the US can be creepy. I've obviously never heard the term before and never had it in a context so I didn't immediately see how it would be oppressive. I don't really either. It's a term used to make what is likely a lame conversation, shorter.

And I don't think it's in Superbad. But it sounds so weird that it's so common. Like that one summer I went back to the states and *everything* was "NO CARBS!" or whatever. That was so fucking weird.

oh I forgot to mention

Sunny, Denmark continually scores number 1 as the happiest country on Earth. ;)

Of course I think how they measure that is by consumption which is not really a good accurate measure of a feeling. :/ But I'm not sure how they compile that data.

T-6005
10-22-2008, 12:06 PM
I guess I just don't know who you know, because claiming that this perception of older women just from the word cougar permeates the entirety of "society" strikes me as ridiculous.

I'm far from claiming that the stereotype doesn't exist or that it isn't derogatory when it is applied, but it seems like you're trying to attach an entire social discourse to the perception of one word. And while, like I mentioned, you do have a point on the fact that it exists, I think that your explanation of its social ramifications is over the top.

wheelchairman
10-22-2008, 12:07 PM
Thibault is a dick who summarizes my disorganized thoughts into 3 sentences.

T-6005
10-22-2008, 12:12 PM
I just copy what you said and then take out all of the sentences you used.

I also saw a map of the world based on happiness once.

Africa was sad.

Rag Doll
10-22-2008, 12:17 PM
T, I don't recall saying that everything stems from the word. Though there is an idea *behind* that word that *does* permeate society. It does not, however, come from that word. It's just the idea behind the word. You can see the same idea of "all women want it" in many other things....advertising, music, movies, daily conversation, etc. I wasn't just referring to the stereotype of older women with the word "cougar"...

Does that make what I was saying more clear?

lost_nvrfound
10-22-2008, 03:11 PM
Rag Doll, I really don't know if there is a big difference between New Jersey and North Carolina (never been to Jersey for more than a couple hours), but I've never seen cougar used so loosely, in movie or the real world. Its always been very specific. I know the mentality you're talking about, but maybe I just do a pretty good job of avoiding the scumbags or something, because this is the only place I've ever seen that kind of behavior.

Rag Doll
10-22-2008, 07:56 PM
Um, even besides the whole "cougar" thing....

...there is a world of difference between northern NJ and NC.

nieh
10-22-2008, 08:21 PM
I also saw a map of the world based on happiness once.

Africa was sad.

This (http://thejunction.net/justfacts/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/world_map_of_happiness.jpg) is way more amusing than it should be.

Omni
10-22-2008, 09:08 PM
We have to wait till Sinister grows up. Then we will have it.

Oh, btw, I have a prey!

I'm on the hunt I'm after you, mouth is alive with juices like whine and I'm hungry like the woooooolf!

p.s - http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/8/29/

Llamas
10-22-2008, 10:40 PM
Well, it's either that you are out of touch with American society, or just disinterested in dissecting language and the way it evolves. Analyzing linguistic phenomena is not something all Americans are interested in, after all... just ask Gov Palin :)
I guess some of us (at least Sam and I) believe that language doesn't develop arbitrarily or in a completely innocent, disconnected manner apart from society. There are preconceived notions about womens' sexual agency and what it should entail. A cougar is a predator... correct? "Cougardom" implies hunting for prey (that being younger men) and stepping outside of the bounds of what a middle aged woman's sexual behavior should be. people often use other "hunting" metaphors when using the term "cougar" - a cougar is on the prowl; then she pounces. urban dictionary tells us she is "gearing up to sink her claws (into a younger man)". if you genuinely believe the choice of words is coincidental, then maybe Denmark IS a happier place than the rest of the world.

also, this kind of analysis is not just a domain of women's studies majors and feminist thinkers. have you been paying attention to the US election? the importance of semantics and "hot words" is tremendous. whether that's a good thing or not is not up to me to decide.

I seriously am in love with this post.


right, but what do you call older men who attend bars and clubs looking to, as you put it, "satisfy their carnal desires" with young women? there is no term - derogatory or not - for that man. especially not a term that compares him to a predator.

Pedophile.

No, but seriously you're right. All around. I'm honestly kind of unsure as to how this all is so difficult for Per to grasp...

I admit, I did laugh at the use of Cougar in an episode of How I Met Your Mother where Barney tries to help Marsh out by sleeping with his professor.

arak0r
10-23-2008, 02:49 AM
"Cougar" makes a woman's sexual desires into something animal-like.
do you think its wrong for a woman to have sexual desires like that?

maybe some (lets face it, a lot of people, men, women, whatever) women do have sexual desires that are rather animal-like. if they are, i dont see the issue with it. hell, people are animals.




I admit, I did laugh at the use of Cougar in an episode of How I Met Your Mother where Barney tries to help Marsh out by sleeping with his professor.
and this is actually where i was coming from with the use of the word, though ive heard it many places. i love the show.




Still, nothing is as funny as arak0r accusing someone else of being too sensitive. That shit is pure gold right there.
not quite as gold as you pulling stupid shit about me out of your ass once again and trying to make something out of nothing. apparently im oversensitive all the time now?

i just generally find the oversensitivity to certain words in society to be utterly ridiculous. i understand SOME words, but most of the time its over sweet fuck all

Vera
10-23-2008, 06:56 AM
Being the first one who objected the use of the term, I think Sunny & RD phrased their responses much better than I could have. :]


and this is actually where i was coming from with the use of the word, though ive heard it many places. i love the show.
I think HIMYM is hilarious but the whole comedy in Barney's character comes from him taking the whole fraternity "bro" philosophies of banging girls and having that be your only goal in life way too seriously and way too far. Basically, if you quote or reference this sort of a character without making it obvious, you're going to come off as much of a douche as Barney is.

Rag Doll
10-23-2008, 07:11 AM
do you think its wrong for a woman to have sexual desires like that?

No. However, the society stereotype is that woman should not enjoy sex. If they do, they are a whore, a slut, a nymphomaniac, a cougar, etc. By making the desire into an animal-like thing, it's putting them a step beneath men (who are seen as human, no matter how much sex they want) and making them into a group that should be controlled and forced into sex because, hey, they wanted it anyway.

I'm not saying you personally meant all of that in the word. I'm just explaining some of the ideas behind that word. I'm sure most people that say that word have no idea of what's behind it.

Sunny
10-23-2008, 07:29 AM
i'm just going to reiterate what Sam said, but hey, what the hell.



maybe some (lets face it, a lot of people, men, women, whatever) women do have sexual desires that are rather animal-like. if they are, i dont see the issue with it. hell, people are animals.


i agree with you that people are animals with animalistic drives, with sex drive being one of the strongest. and that is and should be fine. those drives are governed by social rules, though, and those rules are fundamentally unfair.

the difference is simple: the male is free to express and act on his sexual desires in any way he pleases. he can actively seek sex, express his desire for sex, and partake in "meaningless" sex with no social repercussions. his desires, given they're heterosexual, are widely accepted. consider the terms that are used to praise male sexual prowess: "pimp", "player", "the man". boys will be boys, right?

and that, from a purely logical and biological standpoint, is completely fine.

now consider the female human animal. she is supposed to "respect herself" and "stay pure" and guard her virginity. she is not supposed to act on her desires, because that would make her a slut, "loose" - or a woman who doesn't "respect herself". you NEVER hear that kind of rhetoric in regards to men who partake in the exact same behavior. and if an older woman expresses those desires, she is referred to as a predatory animal. coincidence? really?

T-6005
10-23-2008, 08:44 AM
I think your blanket treatment of society is stretching it a little far.

I hate to use myself as an example, but I don't think sleeping around is a worthy pursuit for men or women either one. And, unique delicate flower that I might be, I'm sure I can't be the only one.

Ugh, of course - you have been studying this. I have no academic base to argue, I'm just saying that from everyday observation the stereotype and the latent social views you described are present, but not in nearly the amounts you seem to imply.

In another slightly related context - if you recall the article someone posted (I can't recall who) about the sentencing of a female teacher having sex with her male student, would you say that women sexual offenders get lighter sentencing because people seem to believe that they "just can't help themselves?"

Some sourcing (http://letters.salon.com/c06e94bb5481f88103e914c5a8721b51/author/index16.html)

HeadAroundU
10-23-2008, 09:07 AM
I'm on the hunt I'm after you, mouth is alive with juices like whine and I'm hungry like the woooooolf!
Wow, I was just listening to that album. I'm giving you 1 000 000 leet points for that post. It pwns on so many levels, at least in my head. <3

Sunny
10-23-2008, 09:44 AM
I think your blanket treatment of society is stretching it a little far.

I hate to use myself as an example, but I don't think sleeping around is a worthy pursuit for men or women either one. And, unique delicate flower that I might be, I'm sure I can't be the only one.



i lol'd at delicate flower. ;D
i'm sure there are plenty of people who think the way you do, or don't hold sexist views. i'm talking about a larger framework, i guess. there is a distinct way women and their sexual desires are written about, the way it's portrayed in the media, the way religious leaders address it. sure, not everyone subscribes to these beliefs, and that's great - but i do believe that our society as a whole is sexist to the core.
similarly, you might not hate teh gays, and i'm sure you know lots of very tolerant/open-minded people... hell, some places allow gay marriage... but our overall social and cultural framework is deeply homophobic... you know?

as for the female sex offenders being treated less harshly, i am not sure what exactly is at work here, but it's definitely a byproduct of the way we perceive and interpret the sexual behavior of different genders. i wish i had more in-depth thoughts to offer on the matter. ;p

HeadAroundU
10-23-2008, 11:06 AM
Women are 8 times more sensitive than men. It's no surprise that they strech it too far. Don't get me started about the clitoris.

Rag Doll
10-23-2008, 03:56 PM
i lol'd at delicate flower. ;D
i'm sure there are plenty of people who think the way you do, or don't hold sexist views. i'm talking about a larger framework, i guess. there is a distinct way women and their sexual desires are written about, the way it's portrayed in the media, the way religious leaders address it. sure, not everyone subscribes to these beliefs, and that's great - but i do believe that our society as a whole is sexist to the core.
similarly, you might not hate teh gays, and i'm sure you know lots of very tolerant/open-minded people... hell, some places allow gay marriage... but our overall social and cultural framework is deeply homophobic... you know?

as for the female sex offenders being treated less harshly, i am not sure what exactly is at work here, but it's definitely a byproduct of the way we perceive and interpret the sexual behavior of different genders. i wish i had more in-depth thoughts to offer on the matter. ;p

Agreed on the entire first paragraph.

On the second issue, I don't really have much of an idea on it either. I do think it may have something to do with the "atta boy" attitude and general congratulatory behavior that seems to go on when some middle/high school age guy ends up banging some (usually) good looking teacher. It's like a male fantasy fulfilled to an extent, so the culture at large doesn't see it as an issue.

Plus the entire idea that 1) men don't say no if she's hot and 2) he wouldn't have gotten an erection if he wasn't in some way turned on or "wanting it"

Sunny
10-23-2008, 05:04 PM
yep, definitely.

also, this is going to sound sick... if the perpetrator is male and the victim is a female child, the violation could be more "obvious" because of physical loss of virginity and inherently penetrative nature of the abuse, with the abuser being the person *performing* the action and the victim being on the receiving end. with a female abuser and a male victim, it's a bit different... obviously.

ugh, typing that made me cringe. fuuuck. >_<

HeadAroundU
10-23-2008, 05:16 PM
This whole discussion makes me cringe. I wonder how far this can go on.

We call Davo a little pigeon in Slovakia thread. Can you ladies explain it to me? As a man, I'm too shallow and insensitive.

:)

Jojan
10-23-2008, 05:28 PM
I'm comming in late in this discussion, so this could allready have been pointed out.

As the M stands for mother a 16 year old could be a MILF, but then you'd might loos the ILF part. A 80 year old lady is likley to be a mother, and might be someone who someone would like to fuck, so she's MILF to that person.

So the whole concept of MILF are based on a stereotype. Or is it? In porn movies with MILF in the title there are MILFs in the range of 20-50. I base the higher age from Nina Hartley, who's 49. So there's really a varaity of MILFs out there.