PDA

View Full Version : Is Russia's gas supply halt an economical or political problem?



hangovered
01-07-2009, 01:25 PM
I know it's mostly American forums, but there are a lot of Europeans members that may want to talk about this.

So firstly i though it was only economical problem, at least Ukraine has a big debt to Russia. But then gas delivery to western Europe decreased and EU involved. Russia and Ukraine start to blame themselves for that, Russian goverment was saying that Ukraine is stealing the gas and Ukraine that Russia intetively decreased amount of gas. They agreed do fix this by invite guest country, but suddenly all the pipelines in Ukraine are closed and nobody knows who did that. So I don't think it's Ukraine, becouse they need trust from other European countries since they trying to build some democracy. But then what Russia is trying to prove by not delivering gas to Europe?

Sorry for this post being that long.

I just noticed there is syntactic error in the title,can you please fix this?

Oxygene
01-07-2009, 01:44 PM
What it proves is that we need to be less dependent on russian gas, so that at a time like this the russians and the ukranians can fuck eachother all they want without getting us involved.

The Slovaks and Serbs don't even have enough gas to heat their residential housing.. that isn't very nice.

metalmania
01-07-2009, 01:53 PM
yeah you know that U.S.S.R was one powerfull country from 2 powerfull country and ussr collapsed on 1991(we can say that this collapse begun on 1980's) russia,ukraine,white russia and many republics did appear in the history stage.russia's economy was so bad until 1995 and they saw their other powers(like oil,naturalgas....)new managament(putin and his management team) were missing the old super days and they designated their stragety,now russia government wants to be a super capitalist- nationalist country.
when ussr scatters; usa and europe tried to long to possess to kafkasia and these countries made the revolutions with civil society organizations in ukraine,georgia,kirghizistan...(for to break the power of russia) cause this geography has perfect minerals.so russia saw this game.yeah its a big sweet economic pie.so its not a problem beetween russia-ukraine.this problem beetween west countries and russia.its a power-balance game in this geography almost like russia-georgia(usa) war.so its just war of capitalism.and this game never stops

Jesus
01-07-2009, 03:18 PM
What it proves is that we need to be less dependent on russian gas, so that at a time like this the russians and the ukranians can fuck eachother all they want without getting us involved.


Pretty much yeah, diversification is the answer via renewable energy and nuclear power. Shame most of the press and the very serious people haven't figured that out yet. They tend to focus on the supply side, blaming the exporting country. Like it's our God given right to get other countries resources. The focus should instead be on something that one can change and that is obviously the demand side, namely your usage of energy.

The conflict itself has little to do with "official payment" for Russian gas though, Ukraine has hardly ever payed for Russian gas. This "conflict" has been going on since 1992, usually ending with some bogus agreement and issuing a statement that an agreement was reached on payment. The real reasons I think can be found where the most money can be made. And that's with the direct supply to a bunch of Ukrainian customers. Since the gas isn't payed for (basically stolen), a lot of profit can be made by supplying it to end customers. Thus the real conflict is between traders and oligarchs in both Russia and Ukraine who try to gain control of this end user supply and thus capture the profit. Just look how Tymoshenko made her money.

Mota Boy
01-07-2009, 03:40 PM
What'd I tell ya'? You Europeans laughed at us in '03, but just five years later and you're already crawling back, begging for our help. Figures.

Alright, which country did you say we needed to invade to fix this mess?

hangovered
01-07-2009, 04:00 PM
What it proves is that we need to be less dependent on russian gas, so that at a time like this the russians and the ukranians can fuck eachother all they want without getting us involved

It's easy to say, but alternative sources of gas are much more expensive, at least for East Europe. I'm not sure but the alternative now is Norway, via Germany and Poland, but the experts say it might not work. After reading your posts I see that's not political problem at all, but it's also not caused by economical crisis(which was Putins argument).

HeadAroundU
01-07-2009, 04:12 PM
Pretty much yeah, diversification is the answer via renewable energy and nuclear power. Shame most of the press and the very serious people haven't figured that out yet.
Bah, I've been hearing about diversification for a couple of years. Though, I don't know in what relation. :d It's not a quick process, right?

The problem is in Ukraine. Their economy is in shit. Their money lost its value. They don't feel like paying the average price.

Oxygene
01-08-2009, 12:32 AM
Bah, I've been hearing about diversification for a couple of years. Though, I don't know in what relation. :d It's not a quick process, right?

The problem is in Ukraine. Their economy is in shit. Their money lost its value. They don't feel like paying the average price.

Ukraine pays less than half the market price to begin with!

holland25
01-08-2009, 05:14 AM
The Slovaks don't even have enough gas to heat their residential housing.. that isn't very nice.

That's bullshit. At least for now only the big factories cut down their consumption of the gas. The residential housing is not affected by now.

Oxygene
01-08-2009, 06:36 AM
That's bullshit. At least for now only the big factories cut down their consumption of the gas. The residential housing is not affected by now.

Sorry, I meant serbs.. it's all the same anyway russian-russian :D

jk

Szandi
01-08-2009, 08:09 AM
My boss comes back today from Serbia. He said, no gas there. and Hungary doesn't want to help.

Szandi
01-08-2009, 09:05 AM
Hungary helped.



"Hungary will deliver 1 million – 2 million cubic meters of gas to Serbia, or enough to cover one-fourth of household consumption, Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsány said on Thursday.
The delivery was made possible because Hungarians “saved” 3 million cubic meters of gas on Wednesday, he added.

Temperatures were not as cold as forecast on Wednesday, and household gas consumption was lower than expected.

Hungary's gas deliveries to Serbia will be negotiated on a daily basis, Gyurcsány said. They will continue as long as they do not cause Hungary to make disproportionate reductions in its own gas consumption, he added.

Serbia has no gas reserves and it takes delivery of about 95% of its gas via Hungary. Many Serbs in areas with district heating from gas-fuelled plants were left without heat after gas deliveries from Ukraine to Hungary were halted on Tuesday. (MTI – Econews)"

metalmania
01-08-2009, 09:55 AM
wow!i think ;its a tragiccomic problem 'cause remember! west(europe countries) were hating russia formerly but now those countries dependent to new russia about energy and this naturalgas problem is just a part of big picture.we will see new problems on next years about gas-oil--weapons....anyway these re bad problems for people but they make their problems again again always

Commie
01-09-2009, 09:27 AM
Ох ты ж твою мать%)

МЫША
01-09-2009, 09:39 AM
Ох ты ж твою мать%)жжошь млин!!!http://s58.radikal.ru/i160/0901/05/f295014cc7c3.gif (http://www.radikal.ru)http://s58.radikal.ru/i160/0901/05/f295014cc7c3.gif (http://www.radikal.ru)http://s58.radikal.ru/i160/0901/05/f295014cc7c3.gif (http://www.radikal.ru)

Oxygene
01-09-2009, 09:40 AM
Can you keep it english, what is the russian side of this story? I'd really like to knwo...

Drafan
01-12-2009, 08:14 AM
What I don´t know, if Ukraine has any gas supplies, I haven´t seen any informations about it, if not so, they would be forced to cooperate

zsk
01-12-2009, 08:39 AM
I know it's mostly American forums, but there are a lot of Europeans members that may want to talk about this.

So firstly i though it was only economical problem, at least Ukraine has a big debt to Russia. But then gas delivery to western Europe decreased and EU involved. Russia and Ukraine start to blame themselves for that, Russian goverment was saying that Ukraine is stealing the gas and Ukraine that Russia intetively decreased amount of gas. They agreed do fix this by invite guest country, but suddenly all the pipelines in Ukraine are closed and nobody knows who did that. So I don't think it's Ukraine, becouse they need trust from other European countries since they trying to build some democracy. But then what Russia is trying to prove by not delivering gas to Europe?

Sorry for this post being that long.

I just noticed there is syntactic error in the title,can you please fix this?

in germany most people use oil,so we don't have the problem;)

HornyPope
01-12-2009, 01:51 PM
Can you keep it english, what is the russian side of this story? I'd really like to knwo...

I watched two weeks Russian news and I can tell you, they put all the blame on Ukraine. Miller, the CEO of the Gazprom, appeared a number of times on TV saying he tried to negotiate a deal with Ukraine but the latter wasn't responding to his offers because they wouldn't accept a raise of prices. Finally, time run out and they simply cut down the gas supplies.

Now, this is just the Russian story from the top. As far as the regular people with a brain are concerned, the fight could be over something ENTIRELY different. We can never know.

Commie
01-13-2009, 04:30 AM
The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous.

It is as simple as pickpocketing or shoplifting - Ukraine steal Russian gas, and their president admitted it a couple of times, they have huge debts... they don't pay for Russian gas - so in the beginning of the year, because of these debts, Russia stooped supplying gas to Ukraine.

That was all... Russia stopped supplying gas to Ukraine but didn't stop supplying Europe, and then the Ukraine did a brilliant thing - they just continued using the gas that was transited to Europe through the Ukrainian territory.

So what's the point for Russia to continue the gas supplying if no matter what the gas for Europe would be stolen by the Ukraine? (maybe not all the gas, but some part of it... I believe that doesn't matter at all).

And please tell me what does the Western mass media tell about the agreement that was signed by Russia, EU and the Ukraine? the one that didn't work for the first time:)

HeadAroundU
01-13-2009, 05:00 AM
The problem might be Ukraine's orientation to the west. I bet that Russia enjoys the situation. Ya assholes, playin' bad asses in the middle of winter. :D

However, I'm basically on Russia's side. Nobody should play with the USA and Russia. Obey.

On the other side, Russia could be nicer. Let Ukraine steal the gass, and figure it all out later. Slovakia pays properly, Russia is becoming unreliable partner. We need each other, demand is good for Russia.

Commie
01-13-2009, 05:55 AM
Ya... we will restore the might of the USSR!!! Kill the capitalists, tovarischi!! Let them see how strong Russian Bear is!!! Obey our country! and... and obey me... personally... please... I have always dreamed of a slave. (everything is pronounced with a strong Russian accent:)))

I'm kidding anyway:))


Let Ukraine steal the gas, and figure it all out later.

Heh, it would work out great if Russian government didn't let this happen for a few years. The Ukraine has been stealing Russian gas for... hmm... some time... and this conflict is... is lasting for toooooooooooooooo long I believe:) and the reason... is just a figure with a few zeros... more than ten zeroes I guess... in dollars... and the first digit is not a zero... (I hope I've used all these "digits"/"figures"/"numbers" in the right way, though I'm not pretty sure)

Tovarischi from Europe and the US, if I had been the leader of Mother Russia, I would have done it long-long time ago... just for you to see how might my Motherland is!!! well... perhaps wouldn't have done it in winter... but still:)

HeadAroundU
01-13-2009, 06:27 AM
Ya... we will restore the might of the USSR!!! Kill the capitalists, tovarischi!! Let them see how strong Russian Bear is!!! Obey our country! and... and obey me... personally... please... I have always dreamed of a slave. (everything is pronounced with a strong Russian accent:))) I'm kidding anyway:))

Heh, it would work out great if Russian government didn't let this happen for a few years. The Ukraine has been stealing Russian gas for... hmm... some time...

... perhaps wouldn't have done it in winter... but still:)
I approve of kidding, but the international relations in the world aren't overly sweet.

You are the 2nd person pointing it out to me. Well, let's build an alternative transit and when it's done, cut them off.

That's a good way to start being nice. :)

HornyPope
01-13-2009, 01:18 PM
The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous.

It is as simple as pickpocketing or shoplifting - Ukraine steal Russian gas, and their president admitted it a couple of times, they have huge debts... they don't pay for Russian gas - so in the beginning of the year, because of these debts, Russia stooped supplying gas to Ukraine.

That was all... Russia stopped supplying gas to Ukraine but didn't stop supplying Europe, and then the Ukraine did a brilliant thing - they just continued using the gas that was transited to Europe through the Ukrainian territory.


I don't know why you think this is all so simple.

As far as I can tell, we don't know if Ukraine has been stealing the gas transited towards Western Europe or if the Russians reduced the supplies. I think the former scenario is probably a little more likely, but the latter is also very possible.

metalmania
01-13-2009, 02:51 PM
problems,problems..... hey dont worry,its not a new thing in this geography.caucasus and middleeast lines re always in big problems.sometimes these problems's name is gas-oil,sometimes freedom,sometimes west-east argument..... but reason is always same:west triest to enter and east resists;but i have to say it west entered to east with culture emperialism and its not enough for west.they want more;) so just watch to what will east do?

1916
01-14-2009, 11:16 AM
да. просто пиздец как можно ебануца от этой бля ебанутой твердожопости мозга многих ответивших.я хуею, как ослиные уши, висящие на бельевой веревке в саду воспринимают ТО, что нужно своим доводам как правду, а все что не нравится - как ложь. ебут мозги самим себе, и совсем невинным жертвам типа меня.

translate: at first, i begun to speak english very well. i begun to use verynice translator.
at second, this question (which you can see in thread's theme) is continue of last year events. i hoped that many of us (everybody on this forum) begun to understand that you NEWS (tv, radio, other media sources) can fuck you brain everytime when somebody need it. many of people in this thread use some facts of present problem like they checked it all. if you really know what's reasons of present problem, may be better you solve it.
at now, most of people here choose from news only facts that they need. ok, i think that it's all usless... everybody will stay on own means.

as said HeadAroundU: "We need each other..." i can add to it: "this problem is bad for all (for russia, for ukraine, and for eu). nobody win from it."
now, my answer on thread's question is:"whenever this conflict was only economical (may be), but in last times it became more political. i said so, because all went good with past president of ukarine."
and in the end, please, don't think that you better than you neighberhood or somebody other. everybody have own place in this life.

thanks everybody for atention! and sorry that i said lie you about my english. :)

hangovered
01-14-2009, 12:08 PM
I have an impression that ppl supporting Russia feel offended. It's not like "Russia is bad becouse they stopped supplying EU"(becouse we don't know if they really did) or "Ukraine is good, Russia wrong them!". Offcourse in some way Ukraine were stealing Russians gas by not paying for it, but I don't know how is it now. And Russia is doing what every country having monopoly for something would do-making the rules. Why it's taking so long to find guest countries to solve this problem?

And yeah, media are "fucking our brains" and that's why I'm trying to talk to intelligent ppl in this forums to find out what you think about that, to see another points of view.

1916,which presindent you are talking about that had better relations with Russia?

1916
01-14-2009, 12:48 PM
I have an impression that ppl supporting Russia feel offended. It's not like "Russia is bad becouse they stopped supplying EU"(becouse we don't know if they really did) or "Ukraine is good, Russia wrong them!". Offcourse in some way Ukraine were stealing Russians gas by not paying for it, but I don't know how is it now. And Russia is doing what every country having monopoly for something would do-making the rules. Why it's taking so long to find guest countries to solve this problem?

And yeah, media are "fucking our brains" and that's why I'm trying to talk to intelligent ppl in this forums to find out what you think about that, to see another points of view.

1916,which presindent you are talking about that had better relations with Russia?

President is Leonid Kuchma.
and what's about situation now - i don't know. last news from our side is: "President of Russia invited presidents of Ukraine, Slovakia, Moldova and other european countries in Moscow for speaking about problem tommorrow. President of Ukraine don't want go to Moscow." (i don't think that something of it is untrue - if you can, that try to see something about it in different media sources)
and now i say you my little opinion. i think that now moscow want to do one main thing - solve gas problem so fast as it possible. why? because russia want to have stable money. we have OWN president (not man who like in america or eu), who make life in russia better (if he's really from west - than it gift from west, not troyan), so when i speak about russian's president Medvedev i mean interests of Russia. and dont't give the gas for europe is out of Russia's interesets (political and economical).
now, one that i want in this situation - is fastest find solve the problem. i really worry about other country, who can't get themself gas. but somewhere have some troubles. who made it everytime? who need it? at least, i don't...
hope on tommorrow...

metalmania
01-14-2009, 02:02 PM
ukraine,georgia,kırgızhistan re news actors of west capitalist hegemony and russia is struggle with them.cause russia doesnt to give these places and russia government wants to be a perfect capitalist country.they re missing to old-splendid days so i say again:its the reason of all problems!and i have to say the mistakes of russia:1. trotsky's mistakes 2.boris yeltsin's mistakes.these old mistakes made this state of russia. hey 1916 do you know to sultan galiyef?

HornyPope
01-14-2009, 03:40 PM
да. просто пиздец как можно ебануца от этой бля ебанутой твердожопости мозга многих ответивших.я хуею, как ослиные уши, висящие на бельевой веревке в саду воспринимают ТО, что нужно своим доводам как правду, а все что не нравится - как ложь. ебут мозги самим себе, и совсем невинным жертвам типа меня. Who in particular are you upset with?

HeadAroundU
01-15-2009, 07:38 AM
And btw, I was told they might revive Soviet-era nuclear plants in Slovakia and other Central European countries. Don't do that, we don't want another Tchernobyl at our doorstep.
There's a good chance it will happen. I'll shine like a star on the BBS. :D

There are a rumours that lots of money was invested into those plants and they might go for another 10-15 years. Don't worry. :D

1916
01-15-2009, 09:28 AM
ukraine,georgia,kırgızhistan re news actors of west capitalist hegemony and russia is struggle with them.cause russia doesnt to give these places and russia government wants to be a perfect capitalist country.they re missing to old-splendid days so i say again:its the reason of all problems!and i have to say the mistakes of russia:1. trotsky's mistakes 2.boris yeltsin's mistakes.these old mistakes made this state of russia. hey 1916 do you know to sultan galiyef?

1. trotsky wasn't russian... many that he did was very wrong at that time (for example, killing emperor's family). i don't this like historical person.
2. yeltsin was pro-american and he work against russia.
3. i don't know "sultan galiyef". and wikipediahave this page only turkish.

2HornyPope: don't think about it... there's some things about us

metalmania
01-15-2009, 10:49 AM
oh dude im sorry for iim in mistake about trotsky so he was ok.i mean stalin.he was a butcher really and his policies did spoil the USSR .he was thinking to" a socialism in only one country" and its his biggest mistake and again;he killed many people(writers,genious people and more)
gorbachov couldnt see the realisties and he couldnt see the game of yeltisn and his agents.he was trying to narodnism but he couldnt win.anyway those old days back but these mistakes did determine to new russia.da?

metalmania
01-16-2009, 06:18 AM
damn!i forgot to talk about sultangaliyef he was born in kazan(tataristan)and he was a cool idealist and revolutionist about sociaslim,he was thinking a big federation and his ideas were together with lenin but his ideas've been an enemy for stalin so stalin's government did execute by shooting him/end of 1930's and other revolutionists and i guess stalin was not socialist he was just fascist.we can understand it now .

sipptaroowsky
01-20-2009, 04:27 AM
It is a power play, Russia is showing us that for a few months a year, we are completely at their disposal, Ukraina is caught in the middle of it, and they did the same thing in 2006.

RazorTr
01-20-2009, 03:09 PM
gas crysis was good for me
i've seen foxy Ukraine Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko for a week in TV :D

metalmania
02-10-2009, 02:05 PM
hm i guess gas problem finished for now and russia prepares to a new role now.russian government will work proofread to relations of usa and iran so russia's new problem/mission is to reconcile ;) but new problems re waiting for us cause this place is caucasus/kafkasia!middleeast and kafkasia re most important places so problems will live there foreva :mad: