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Outerspaceman21
02-10-2009, 02:03 PM
Rolling Stone magazine had an article a while back about the Live Earth thing. In the following issue, in the reader response section, someone said, and I quote "...While everyone can't afford a Hybrid, everyone can go vegan...". I thought about that for a moment and wonder what would happen to the enviroment if everyone did go vegan. Would it benefit us, hurt us, or have no effect at all?

At first glance, I thought it was hurt us, being that the cattle population is somewhat controlled for feeding purposes. If we just let them go free, without any control over their reproduction and feeding habits, what would that do to the enviroment?

I don't think it would hurt the enviroment as much as it would hurt the economy. Hypothetically speaking, with the meat industry gone, that means thousands of job lost. And since vegan don't consume animal by products, the dairy industry and egg industry is gone as well. Where would these people get jobs?

And what about health? Vegans would suffer from a lot of calcium and protein loss. Of course, this could be easily fixed with pills and vitamins.

I just wanted to get more opinions on this and know if anyone knows if veganism can really help us, because I really don't understand it all that well.

ShutUpYouFuckingMime
02-10-2009, 02:07 PM
How can everyone go vegan? Vegan alternatives to meat and dairy products are fucking expensive.

Jesus
02-10-2009, 02:10 PM
It would reduce greenhouse gases. And those people would work in other sectors (supply creates demand and demand creates supply), like switching to produce veggie stuff (also cost reduction in terms of scale). If a climate change tax will be introduced, meat should become more expensive anyway since it's externalities aren't included into the pricing system.

Outerspaceman21
02-10-2009, 02:30 PM
It would reduce greenhouse gases. And those people would work in other sectors (supply creates demand and demand creates supply), like switching to produce veggie stuff (also cost reduction in terms of scale). If a climate change tax will be introduced, meat should become more expensive anyway since it's externalities aren't included into the pricing system.

How would it reduce greenhouse gases? Is the production and consumption of meat products and by-products producing a lot of gases.

And switching workers to the veggie market would make sense, but a lot more people will be hurt then just the people working in the production of meat. Fast food places would crummple, supermarkets with suffer, and the machines used in the process and preperation of meat would decline. Ovens and grills would be almost useless, wouldn't they?

Jesus
02-10-2009, 02:57 PM
How would it reduce greenhouse gases? Is the production and consumption of meat products and by-products producing a lot of gases.

yes, it's one of the main causes of global warming.


And switching workers to the veggie market would make sense, but a lot more people will be hurt then just the people working in the production of meat. Fast food places would crummple, supermarkets with suffer, and the machines used in the process and preperation of meat would decline. Ovens and grills would be almost useless, wouldn't they?
I doubt they would suffer much, but it's irrelevant. New demand creates supply and supply creates demand. Did the light bulb hurt the candle industry, sure... but so what?

Outerspaceman21
02-10-2009, 03:13 PM
Hmm, interesting points.

I still think a lot of research needs to go into. And I mean research of an unbiased opinion. The one thing I hate is when we get information supporting claims and the ones who performed the research already have a biased opinon on the the subject.

Al Coholic
02-10-2009, 04:42 PM
The demand for diverse, tasty food is so great that although the initial switch would be very costly economically, once the adjustment was theoretically made(we're talking decades down the line for this kind of recovery) jobs might experience a small net loss but not by much. The market will adjust.

The environmental impact is interesting. On the one hand, the cattle industry is blamed for 11% of greenhouse gases, last I heard. But then the agriculture industry has its own problems. We're talking in extreme laymens terms here, to research, site, and properly summarize an explainationof the effects of each would take several pages of posts. The actual report would be over multiple editions of books. Obviously, the most economical arable land to farm often comes by hacking down forests, the soil nutrition of which isn't always sustainable, leading to rotating wastelands.


Whatever guy wrote "everyone can go vegan" was an ingorant white guy comfortable in a nice neighborhood. You ever go into the local groceries of shitty neighborhoods? Its all processed food exploding with diabetes. You're lucky to even have any choice, provided you could afford it. Being vegan is very, very expensive even if you have those options nearby. Even should such a switch occur, growing crops organically(I'm gonna assume this goes hand in hand with veganism in a lot of cases) is always more expensive. So are vegan foods. The processed shit you buy with food stamps, while awful for you, is atleast cheap.


I also kind of wonder about animal products. I don't know what specifically, but there's a lot of industrial uses for animal products and I don't think there's a vegan alternative for everything.

Outerspaceman21
02-10-2009, 05:55 PM
First, it wasn't a white guy, it was some chick named Jenny who was commenting on something Davey Havoc said in the article (him being a preformer and a vegan)

And it is vast, some thing people don't even know, like energy drinks and energy product (which contain taurine, a bile from the lower intestine of many animals and humans as well), and Jello which is made from ginded up bone of cattle... seriously...

chicapowerpunk
02-10-2009, 06:27 PM
I think that humans are destroying, being vegetarian is not bad, it is assumed that nature made us to consume s'lo what she gives us.
Now the industry is losing because animal products are not as kind, perhaps in another time did so much damage, but are modificacdos GM, which produces certain alterations in humans.
Humans began to eat meat because they were experiencing, we created this industry.
And finally I think it's too late to reverse global warming ..


:eek:P. D. Everything they do as they are about to die

wheelchairman
02-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Abortions and heart surgery also sound pretty gross when you explain them in detail. I hate when people try and use that as a foundation for an argument.

Also I'm not really worried about the effects cows have on the environment. Apparently methane trends have been going down for a long time.

What I would like to know is while looking up the issue of methane concentrations in the atmosphere I came across this report:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es061791t

Which I have access to through my university's internal network. This report generally states that methane has been going down for at least the past 20 years. Apparently the following two graphs show this decline:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/wheelchairman/graph1.png
Graph one shows the Methane Parts Per Billion (in the atmosphere) per year for 24 years, it's an average of 6 stations in a polar area, middle area, and tropical area of both hemispheres. And when it says they are located in background air sites I am guessing that means non-urban. They use this graph as evidence for a decreasing trend, yet it's clearly increasing. Can someone explain to me what I clearly don't understand? Either way an increase in 20 years of 200 PPB does not worry me too much. Especially if of that increase, cows constitute 11% of that increase. oooh!

The other graph is here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/wheelchairman/graph2.png
And shows a downward trend, it is however rather unstable, but generally down. It shows the trend of methane parts per billion, per year with a 2 year smoothing. I don't understand why they are so different, especially when they are right next to each other.

Endy or Betty help!

EDIT: I'd also settle for sKratch's help!

Al Coholic
02-10-2009, 06:58 PM
The first graph shows an increase in general, but a decrease in the rate of increase. That would be considered a decreasing trend, even though it's not decreasing. The second is beyond me.

wheelchairman
02-10-2009, 06:59 PM
Ah! Decreasing trend. Wonder why I didn't get that. It's 3 am.

The second graph shows a decrease because it's the graph of the trend. Which has been decreasing for the past 24 years.

Little_Miss_1565
02-10-2009, 07:36 PM
Anyone who says it's too expensive to go vegan is up his/her own rear end. I'm broke as shit right now, so I'm a de facto vegan til payday. I belong to a fucking mindblowing food co-operative here in Brooklyn, and for $40 I got enough bulk quinoa, lentils, oats, kale, tea, apples, bananas, soymilk and suchlike to last me at least two weeks. I'm making some lentil soup right now that will feed me 3 or so meals for about $3 of ingredients. Buttloads of protein and the soymilk has vitamin B-12. And all that fiber means all the tasty deliciousness makes me feel full faster.

I was vegetarian for six years and then gave it up because I stopped caring. I still don't really care, and I'll probably end up buying some chicken to shove in my crock pot (thatswhatshesaid) this weekend, but you can eat a tasty, nutritious, and above all CHEAP AS SHIT meal with no animal products. The drawback is that you have to do a lot more prep work and cooking; can't just pull up to a drive-through. But, our fiber-poor convenience food lifestyle is what causes colon cancer rates to rise. Not getting cancer > dinner taking awhile to cook.

wheelchairman
02-10-2009, 08:20 PM
I think it depends on where you live and how much you know about local cooperatives.

It's not cheaper in Denmark. Due to Maartje's sensitive stomach we've tried finding aforementioned cheap goods (or stuff like them).

And I would believe that in many parts of the US it is more expensive to eat vegan. Places like NY, or the Northwest though it might easily be the reversal.

that being said, straight up meat is also expensive too.

Little_Miss_1565
02-10-2009, 08:38 PM
You're right, it's not cheap in some parts of the world, but in many of those parts of the world I'd bet that a lot is not cheap. There's a ton of farmland in upstate New York, and a couple of those farms nearly exclusively grow for the co-op, so things are pretty durn cheap. NYC is also one of the world's biggest ports so it's relatively easy to import. On a pure level, meat will always always always be more expensive than a plant-based diet. One pound of beef requires 12 pounds of grain, 55 sq feet of land, and 2500 gallons of water. That's a lot of energy, and energy is expensive. A pound of grain needs far, far less.

This is also not factoring in a lot of meat analogues in a vegan/vegetarian diet. Those are indeed expensive (though tasty).

Budzy
02-10-2009, 09:01 PM
Turn vegan? Fuck that.

Outerspaceman21
02-10-2009, 10:42 PM
I personally don't believe in veganism as I see nothing wrong in consuming animal by-products, and I like milk and eggs.

When I move out and live on my own (live with parents, no job), I will probably be a vegetarian by default because I really don't like meat. I don't like poultry, regular beef, lamb, or pork all that much. I do enjoy fish and ground beef (burgers), but I hardly ever eat fish and I'm trying to give up burgers for health reason.

Mota Boy
02-11-2009, 04:20 AM
In the past few years, I've consciously decreased my meat intake, particularly beef. To me, it's just a waste of resources.

ShutUpYouFuckingMime
02-11-2009, 05:22 AM
Almond milk and rice milk are more expensive than regular milk, and I don't like soy milk. At least at my stores. Maybe I'm shopping at the wrong places. I'm relatively close to being vegetarian, because the only meat I really eat is poultry. Every now and again I'll have beef, but for the most part I'm a pollotarian.

I hate it when people claim to be vegetarian when the only meat they eat is either fish or poultry. If the only meat you eat is fish, you're a pesectarian. If the only meat you eat is poultry, then you're a pollotarian. NOT VEGETARIAN.

Rutegard
02-12-2009, 02:17 PM
At first glance, I thought it was hurt us, being that the cattle population is somewhat controlled for feeding purposes. If we just let them go free, without any control over their reproduction and feeding habits, what would that do to the enviroment?



god, i can't believe you just said that


one question spaceman, if a scientist comes to u, explaining trough 1+1=2 that becoming vegetarian is good for the environment and your health, would u stop eating meat?


edit: oh and maybe those cows would go wild and eat us all! jeez....

metalmania
02-12-2009, 03:05 PM
hehe lets eat the world!

Thomas
02-12-2009, 03:07 PM
hehe lets eat the world!

Well that was an insightful contribution.





Personally, I think if everyone went vegan, the environment might get a bit better, but it would cause way more problems than it fixes.

metalmania
02-12-2009, 03:10 PM
hehe thanx dude you re very ironic ;) anyway i was just kidding cause this subject is very comic for me but i respect 'em all;) but i have to say it again.humanity so hungry for everything .world's not enough:rolleyes:

wheelchairman
02-12-2009, 03:14 PM
The track record mankind has had of 'managing' ecosystems sucks shit. What makes us think that if we tinker further it would be even better?

It's these good intentions but ignorance that causes these problems. Other than the fact that the choice to be vegan should obviously be voluntary, if we look and collectively as a species decide to be vegetarian or vegan we would then have to think very carefully how we would go about that in order not to fuck the environment up on a massive scale.

And really part of me doubts that all the planning in the world wouldn't really prevent us from fucking up ecosystems if we collectively gave up meat eating. Even if there are aspects of the meat industry that are just terrible. I would say that the meat industry is in far more dire need of regulations and reformation. Not only for moral reasons but also for the health of the human population.

Outerspaceman21
02-12-2009, 03:28 PM
god, i can't believe you just said that


one question spaceman, if a scientist comes to u, explaining trough 1+1=2 that becoming vegetarian is good for the environment and your health, would u stop eating meat?


edit: oh and maybe those cows would go wild and eat us all! jeez....

Dude, I just said at first glance, like skimming over the basic concept. Thats why I posted this shit, to get others opinions. You don't have to get all anal about it and call me stupid.

Llamas
02-12-2009, 05:48 PM
Questions:

Are we talking about the entire world going vegan, or just the US/Europe/Australia? I kind of doubt that the majority of humans are exposed to the option of being vegan. There aren't manufactured supplements and ingredient lists in a lot of places. So I do assume we're talking about the more advanced countries/areas of the world. Would this mean that we stop producing meat? Would meat be illegal, as well as other animal based products? People would be smuggling meat across the border from Mexico. ;) Or are we just saying, if everyone willingly went vegan?

Anyway, I used to shop at co-ops when I had a little more money to spend (before I started saving up for my flight). I've tried to shop at co-ops for the same amount I'd spend at Cub or Rainbow... but I always go home with way less food. I generally spend about $60 a month on food; when I shopped at co-ops, I was spending over $100 a month. Vegetables were considerably more expensive, as were simple things like pasta and spaghetti sauce. A jar of brown mustard was $5 instead of $2 for the same amount... things like that. It all added up very quickly for me, and at this point I can not afford to shop at co-ops. Sucks because I generally like organic food better.

Also, I do like to spend time making my food, but these days I don't have as much time as I used to. I've always ate the worst when I'm in school. Being in school causes me to buy frozen pizzas, rice mixes, and stuff to make lots of sandwiches. Not the worst, but not nearly as healthy (or cheap) as other alternative. Still cheaper than co-ops, though. :-/

Al Coholic
02-12-2009, 06:13 PM
god, i can't believe you just said that


one question spaceman, if a scientist comes to u, explaining trough 1+1=2 that becoming vegetarian is good for the environment and your health, would u stop eating meat?


edit: oh and maybe those cows would go wild and eat us all! jeez....

Although I don't know much about cattle migration patterns, and how in-tune with their instincts cows are that have been confined to ranches for generations. But I will tell you that should you suddenly release hundreds of millions, if not billions of cows, they'd exhaust their food supply and slowly die in agonizingly slow starvation. You'd have to spend a fuckton of money dissipating them, and even still there's going to be a surplus in their population. So your choices are... kill a good portion of them anyway, or sterilize a lot of them and spend the money to keep them fed.

Again, not well informed on this thing, but I'd also imagine that cow predators might experience a population boom, so you'd have to take measures against that as well...

Outerspaceman21
02-12-2009, 07:39 PM
Questions:

Are we talking about the entire world going vegan, or just the US/Europe/Australia? I kind of doubt that the majority of humans are exposed to the option of being vegan. There aren't manufactured supplements and ingredient lists in a lot of places. So I do assume we're talking about the more advanced countries/areas of the world. Would this mean that we stop producing meat? Would meat be illegal, as well as other animal based products? People would be smuggling meat across the border from Mexico. ;) Or are we just saying, if everyone willingly went vegan?

Anyway, I used to shop at co-ops when I had a little more money to spend (before I started saving up for my flight). I've tried to shop at co-ops for the same amount I'd spend at Cub or Rainbow... but I always go home with way less food. I generally spend about $60 a month on food; when I shopped at co-ops, I was spending over $100 a month. Vegetables were considerably more expensive, as were simple things like pasta and spaghetti sauce. A jar of brown mustard was $5 instead of $2 for the same amount... things like that. It all added up very quickly for me, and at this point I can not afford to shop at co-ops. Sucks because I generally like organic food better.

Also, I do like to spend time making my food, but these days I don't have as much time as I used to. I've always ate the worst when I'm in school. Being in school causes me to buy frozen pizzas, rice mixes, and stuff to make lots of sandwiches. Not the worst, but not nearly as healthy (or cheap) as other alternative. Still cheaper than co-ops, though. :-/

Money plays a lot into it from what I see.

The argument is: Hypothetically speaking if the entire united states switched to a vegan diet system, how would this effect the enviroment, the economy, personal health and whatever other things you can think of that doesn't fit into the other categorys.

bouncingcoles
02-12-2009, 07:59 PM
rolling stone is a totally left wing shit magazine for one. Second, people are still going to be destroying the rain forests for towns and polluting the oceans. i really dont like vegetarians and vegans who think they are saving the world.

Outerspaceman21
02-12-2009, 08:04 PM
rolling stone is a totally left wing shit magazine for one. Second, people are still going to be destroying the rain forests for towns and polluting the oceans. i really dont like vegetarians and vegans who think they are saving the world.

True, I don't enjoy their magazine anymore either. Too much tabloid journalism and politic stuff. I want just music and only music. They totally sold out a long time ago.

Second, you're right. I hate those type of people who think that they superior because they think they know so much about saving the enviroment.

Most of them are too in the dark and easily led by these celebritys who think they know everything.

T-6005
02-12-2009, 08:29 PM
Ho hum ho hum.

Totalitarian agriculture led to the fall of Rome.

Outerspaceman21
02-12-2009, 08:36 PM
Ho hum ho hum.

Totalitarian agriculture led to the fall of Rome.

We are considered the modern rome.


Let's burn

Al Coholic
02-12-2009, 08:36 PM
True, I don't enjoy their magazine anymore either. Too much tabloid journalism and politic stuff. I want just music and only music. They totally sold out a long time ago.

Second, you're right. I hate those type of people who think that they superior because they think they know so much about saving the enviroment.

Most of them are too in the dark and easily led by these celebritys who think they know everything.
Don't be ridiculous now. You don't know most people that care about the environment. You don't even know a significant amount of the people that 'think they're superior' because they're environmentalists. And the celebrity thing? Now you just sound like a teenager pulling stuff out of your ass.

In my opinion, it's admirable. They're doing their part, however miniscule, and that's something. The douchey environmentalist who thinks they're better than everyone who isn't as 'green' as them is a tired stereotype. There really aren't as many people who act that way as is made out to be. Nor is the 'Hollywood' environmentalist culture such a bad thing. Remember that a lot of celebrities that take up these causes are very intellectual and informed on what they're organizing for or sponsoring. It's really not their fault if the media portrayl of them is that they're a bunch of liberal hippie douchebags.

What bugs me, however, is the uninformed critic. Wether or not you buy into climate change is one thing. But pollution, deforestation, ozone depletion, etc are all valid issues. The guy that jeers environmentalists for no good reason is usually the biggest douche in that arena.

Outerspaceman21
02-12-2009, 08:45 PM
Don't be ridiculous now. You don't know most people that care about the environment. You don't even know a significant amount of the people that 'think they're superior' because they're environmentalists. And the celebrity thing? Now you just sound like a teenager pulling stuff out of your ass.

In my opinion, it's admirable. They're doing their part, however miniscule, and that's something. The douchey environmentalist who thinks they're better than everyone who isn't as 'green' as them is a tired stereotype. There really aren't as many people who act that way as is made out to be. Nor is the 'Hollywood' environmentalist culture such a bad thing. Remember that a lot of celebrities that take up these causes are very intellectual and informed on what they're organizing for or sponsoring. It's really not their fault if the media portrayl of them is that they're a bunch of liberal hippie douchebags.

What bugs me, however, is the uninformed critic. Wether or not you buy into climate change is one thing. But pollution, deforestation, ozone depletion, etc are all valid issues. The guy that jeers environmentalists for no good reason is usually the biggest douche in that arena.

True, thats a good point.

And what I'm talking about with the celebritys is all these famous musicians and actors getting behind Al Gore and I heard most of his information is flawed. My chem teacher totally hates him and was always telling us how full of himself he is. He (my chem teacher) wanted us to know the real facts about the enviroment and told us not to look to Al Gore because his science was flawed and there was a whole community of professors and teachers against Al Gore.

wheelchairman
02-12-2009, 08:48 PM
Actually on the contrary what bothers me about celebrities spearheading causes is that there are a lot of moronic celebrities out there, and they are unfortunately role models. Take Tom Cruise and scientology, I mean that just sucks.

I find that to be really annoying. It's that good intentions + ignorance thing, what if they end up doing more harm than good because they had good intentions but were idiots?

Oh man this is so topical to a film or tv show I saw recently... One guy was accusing another of acting stupid but the other said he had good intentions, and then the other guy ranted at him and accused him of being everything he hated. Then that guy 'dies' (eventually we find out that he only almost died).

Oh yeah that was Jurassic Park 3, fuckin A.

Hypno Toad
02-12-2009, 08:59 PM
Babies of vegan parents get sick or die frequently because babies need animal products to live.

Al Coholic
02-12-2009, 09:52 PM
Actually on the contrary what bothers me about celebrities spearheading causes is that there are a lot of moronic celebrities out there, and they are unfortunately role models. Take Tom Cruise and scientology, I mean that just sucks.

I thought scientology was just a money thing. You know they got Will Smith too?

wheelchairman
02-12-2009, 09:58 PM
Well I assume he really likes it. I do agree however though that there must be substantial benefits to being a celebrity and a member.

Al Coholic
02-12-2009, 10:08 PM
Speaking of which, the South Park episode where they kill off chef is on. Apparently Isaac Hayes went that route too. And quit when they did the scientology episode.

Outerspaceman21
02-12-2009, 10:51 PM
Speaking of which, the South Park episode where they kill off chef is on. Apparently Isaac Hayes went that route too. And quit when they did the scientology episode.

Yeah, he said that was the final straw. he felt they were going too far with certain issues and he finally had it with the Scientology episode.

Actually, I think the south park guys are actually on the money with social issues. They are funny, but some it kinda makes you think, "Hey, some of this is kind of true, just blown out of proporation."

Little_Miss_1565
02-13-2009, 08:02 AM
Babies of vegan parents get sick or die frequently because babies need animal products to live.

So long as you're counting breast milk as an animal product. Babies of vegan parents get sick/die because their parents are retarded and are doing it wrong, not because of veganism itself. I was lactose intolerant as an infant, my mother couldn't breastfeed, and it was soy formula all the way, baby.


Turn vegan? Fuck that.

I lol'd.


Anyway, I used to shop at co-ops when I had a little more money to spend (before I started saving up for my flight). I've tried to shop at co-ops for the same amount I'd spend at Cub or Rainbow... but I always go home with way less food. I generally spend about $60 a month on food; when I shopped at co-ops, I was spending over $100 a month. Vegetables were considerably more expensive, as were simple things like pasta and spaghetti sauce. A jar of brown mustard was $5 instead of $2 for the same amount... things like that. It all added up very quickly for me, and at this point I can not afford to shop at co-ops. Sucks because I generally like organic food better.

Dude, whatever co-ops you were going to is doing it WAY wrong. My co-op marks up only 25% above wholesale and all the labor and overhead costs like that other than the salaried board of directors is done by the members. It's a very communist sort of setup. :) But, it means that fresh organic goodness is cheaper than anything. What the hell is the point of a co-op if the prices are more expensive?

Rutegard
02-13-2009, 09:26 AM
Dude, I just said at first glance, like skimming over the basic concept. Thats why I posted this shit, to get others opinions. You don't have to get all anal about it and call me stupid.

ahah it didnt feel like that.
so, would u answer my question or what?



Although I don't know much about cattle migration patterns, and how in-tune with their instincts cows are that have been confined to ranches for generations. But I will tell you that should you suddenly release hundreds of millions, if not billions of cows, they'd exhaust their food supply and slowly die in agonizingly slow starvation. You'd have to spend a fuckton of money dissipating them, and even still there's going to be a surplus in their population. So your choices are... kill a good portion of them anyway, or sterilize a lot of them and spend the money to keep them fed.

Again, not well informed on this thing, but I'd also imagine that cow predators might experience a population boom, so you'd have to take measures against that as well...

hum i just admired myself with the comment because it simple wont happen, it will never happen EVER! so why do even bother with stupid things like these? ya think what?, like billions of ppl around the globe would turn out VEGANS just like that? u clap your hands and that's it? seriously...

i know what u tried to say, i also know that it is what spaceman tried to tell, however, there is no need to even waste your brain cells on such a stupid subject.

we wont release millions of cows, ducks, horses, rabbits, rats, sheeps, goats and so on into the wild....humans are somewhat stupid...but not THAT stupid! :| neither vegetarians would want that to happen! but if we are going to be realistic about this, then let's forget it because it's a dead issue.

Al Coholic
02-13-2009, 11:32 AM
No, it's a hypothetical. It was never a 'live' issue, but its still interesting to debate, so I'm not just going to 'forget it.' You can go right ahead and forget yourself.

Outerspaceman21
02-13-2009, 12:50 PM
ahah it didnt feel like that.
so, would u answer my question or what?

If a scientist came up to me and explained, step by step, why going vegetarian would help the enviroment and my health, I would tell him "Hey, mother fucker, don't you diseases to be stopping right now?"

Seriously, it wont matter because I'm already a default vegetarian because I don't like eating meat (as explained in one of my eariler post).

And I would never go vegan because I think vegan is the stupidest thing I ever heard of. What the fuck is wrong with milk, eggs, and even wool. Those sheep need to be sheared because of a flesh eating virus that develops in their wool, so whats wrong with using that wool? Nothing. It's almost as stupid as the Hardline punk movement.

Rutegard
02-13-2009, 01:16 PM
If a scientist came up to me and explained, step by step, why going vegetarian would help the enviroment and my health, I would tell him "Hey, mother fucker, don't you diseases to be stopping right now?"

Seriously, it wont matter because I'm already a default vegetarian because I don't like eating meat (as explained in one of my eariler post).

And I would never go vegan because I think vegan is the stupidest thing I ever heard of. What the fuck is wrong with milk, eggs, and even wool. Those sheep need to be sheared because of a flesh eating virus that develops in their wool, so whats wrong with using that wool? Nothing. It's almost as stupid as the Hardline punk movement.


ppl feel differently motivated to become vegetarians, and actually, the word vegetarian should only be applied to those who become only for ethic reasons, not because u just dont like eating meat, or because u wanna go on a diet, or because u think is cool, or cause your doctor told u so. but we r not debating that..,



and clearly u know nothing about veganism. there is nothing wrong about milk, eggs and wool. that would be like saying that vegans do not take antibiotics because they dont want to kill the poor bacterias...


edit: what a lame thing to say to a scientist huh? :P

Little_Miss_1565
02-13-2009, 01:24 PM
ppl feel differently motivated to become vegetarians, and actually, the word vegetarian should only be applied to those who become only for ethic reasons, not because u just dont like eating meat, or because u wanna go on a diet, or because u think is cool, or cause your doctor told u so. but we r not debating that..,



and clearly u know nothing about veganism. there is nothing wrong about milk, eggs and wool. that would be like saying that vegans do not take antibiotics because they dont want to kill the poor bacterias...

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. The word vegetarian applies to anyone who does not eat meat for whatever reason, be it ethical or health-related. And vegans do not eat milk, eggs, or other animal products, nor do they wear wool or leather.

Sunny
02-13-2009, 01:27 PM
So long as you're counting breast milk as an animal product. Babies of vegan parents get sick/die because their parents are retarded and are doing it wrong, not because of veganism itself.

wait. are there people who refuse to breastfeed because they are vegan? because i hate to sound judgmental, but you'd have to be dumber than a ton of bricks to have that mindset.

Outerspaceman21
02-13-2009, 01:27 PM
ppl feel differently motivated to become vegetarians, and actually, the word vegetarian should only be applied to those who become only for ethic reasons, not because u just dont like eating meat, or because u wanna go on a diet, or because u think is cool, or cause your doctor told u so. but we r not debating that..,



and clearly u know nothing about veganism. there is nothing wrong about milk, eggs and wool. that would be like saying that vegans do not take antibiotics because they dont want to kill the poor bacterias...


edit: what a lame thing to say to a scientist huh? :P

That scientist just reminded me of a Georger Carlin joke, nevermind it.

and I called myself a default vegetarian, but I don't really call myself a vegetarian because I still like to eat fish, though I rarely do so.

And thats what Veganism is. Not consuming animal by-product like Eggs, Dairy products and wool. it's defined here (I couldn't find any other source other than wikipedia, but it's accurate)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan

Rutegard
02-13-2009, 01:29 PM
I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. The word vegetarian applies to anyone who does not eat meat for whatever reason, be it ethical or health-related. And vegans do not eat milk, eggs, or other animal products, nor do they wear wool or leather.

no

the word vegetarian first arrive to describe those that do not eat meat only cause of ethic issues (ref petersinger. animal liberation) - but then they generalized it since it's not the intention that really matters, only the action itself! and we all agree that vegetarians based on environmental issues or health problems have the same lifestyle that ethic vegetarians (not always, but i like to think they do)


and vegans do not use any animal product. but it's not because they r against using it. and that is totally different


if a vegan had a small farm, where animals could have a very decent life, a vegan would eat eggs (not milk cause that is no good for u) and would use wool, the same way u can use your dog's fur when u take it to the "hairstiler". so called nature balance. veganism is a mind state, not always has to be an active state. vegans r not stupid. they don't want to produce any sort of animal waste, like you said, sheeps need that treatment, and chickens will always produce eggs. so u better use these resources. but at what cost? inflicting suffering and pain? then a vegan says: no thanks.


vegans r not against the use of these secondary animal produtcs, there is nothing wrong with these products. they r only against the human abuse over these animals in order to get those secondary produts. The meat itself is another dif thing cause it implies the death of the animal, so we all can see why vegans are of course strongly against it!


edit: so a vegan WOULD NEVER use any animal product, cause, taking into consideration the society we live in, that means, ANIMAL SUFFERING. and that's it. period! so the best way to avoid any animal suffering, is by avoiding any animal product. sounds good to me. playing safe!



edit 2: ok mayb i didnt explain myself quite too well. lol. i hope u get now what i was trying to say.

Little_Miss_1565
02-13-2009, 02:02 PM
wait. are there people who refuse to breastfeed because they are vegan? because i hate to sound judgmental, but you'd have to be dumber than a ton of bricks to have that mindset.

Yes, and yes. Breastmilk is technically vegan because it is freely given and humans are able to consent to giving it to others. But some people are idiots.


no

the word vegetarian first arrive to describe those that do not eat meat only cause of ethic issues (ref petersinger. animal liberation) - but then they generalized it since its not the intention that really matters, only the action itself! and we all agree that vegetarians based on environmental issues or health problems have the same lifestyle that ethic vegetarians (not always, but i like to think they do)


and vegans do not use any animal product. but its not because they r against using it. and that is totally different


if a vegan had a small farm, where animals could have a very decent life, a vegan wouls eat eggs (not milk cause that is no good for u) and would use wool, the same way u can use your dog's fur when u take it to the "hairstiler". so called nature balance. veganism is a mind state, not always has to be an active state. vegans r not stupid. they don't want to produce any sort of animal waste, like you said, sheeps need that treatment, and chickens will always produce eggs. so u better use this resources. but at what cost? inflicting suffering and pain? then a vegan says, no thanks.


vegans r not against the use of these secondary animal produtcs, there is nothing wrong with these products. they r only against the human abuse over these animals in order to get those secondary produts....not to mention the meat itself...see? thats a dif thing!


edit: so a vegan WOULD NEVER use any animal product, cause, taking into consideration the society we live in, that means, ANIMAL SUFFERING. and thats it. period! so the best way to avoid any animal suffering, is by avoiding any animal product. sounds good to me. playing safe!



edit 2: ok mayb i didnt explain myself quite too well. lol. i hope u get now what i was trying to say.

Are you vegetarian or vegan, have you ever been, and/or do you spend a lot of time around people who are? From what I'm reading from you in this thread, I would be led to believe the answer is no to all three questions.

Sure, some vegans might eat eggs if they knew the chickens were treated humanely, etc etc, but most of the ones I know wouldn't do that regardless because they feel it's exploitative.

Rutegard
02-13-2009, 02:09 PM
Are you vegetarian or vegan, have you ever been, and/or do you spend a lot of time around people who are? From what I'm reading from you in this thread, I would be led to believe the answer is no to all three questions.

Sure, some vegans might eat eggs if they knew the chickens were treated humanely, etc etc, but most of the ones I know wouldn't do that regardless because they feel it's exploitative.


yes i am vegetarian and yeah i do have vegetarians and vegan friends (and also meat eaters)

and if they think it is explotative then it's okay, but when a vegan knows how the animals really live and knowing that some animals have indeed to produce animal products, cause it's so truly natural and biological, a vegan would rather choose to use those resources instead of wasting them.


now, what you might think is another dif thing. for example, would i eat meat if somehow scientists produced it under lab conditions?

i tell ppl i do not eat meat cause of ethic issues, but in this case, where no animal is harmed, would i still eat it? and my answer would be no. y? i dunno, maybe cause i feel better that way.

and vegan may feel the same at lots of dif things. i know vegans that eat eggs cause they have chickens like i have dogs. and i also know vegans that refuse to eat eggs even when the chickens guardians offer it to them. in the end it is your choice, but vegans are not against the humanly way of treating animals AND, if they produce (in this case eggs) then oh well, what to do with it? i also know another old lady vegan, that gives the eggs to their chickens, and they love it!! that is another way to do things.

so, all vegans live happily that way! u just have to feel okay with your choices and actions knowing that you are not abusing neither exploiting your beloved animals. i like them all!!

Sunny
02-13-2009, 02:13 PM
Yes, and yes. Breastmilk is technically vegan because it is freely given and humans are able to consent to giving it to others. But some people are idiots.


that is fucking terrifying, dude. i figured it would be a non-issue because yes, consent is everything, and if you think feeding your child in the way nature intended is exploitative towards you, perhaps it's time to get them ol' tubes tied.

Llamas
02-13-2009, 06:00 PM
Dude, whatever co-ops you were going to is doing it WAY wrong. My co-op marks up only 25% above wholesale and all the labor and overhead costs like that other than the salaried board of directors is done by the members. It's a very communist sort of setup. :) But, it means that fresh organic goodness is cheaper than anything. What the hell is the point of a co-op if the prices are more expensive?

A lot of people shop at such places due to moral/political reasons. People here are obsessed with trying to make everything go organic. So maybe our co-ops just take advantage of that? I think our University even switched to making everything with organic eggs due to enough bitching.

Offspring-Junkie
02-16-2009, 09:12 AM
I won't turn veggie because I love meat. I knew someone who tried to be veggie because he couldn't stand the fact that he ate something he was holding as pet. His girlfriend kept a pig as a pet, so he tried to avoid eating pork or meat at all. He failed.

bighead384
02-16-2009, 12:09 PM
I can't think of one man that I know personally past the age of 25 who is a vegetarian. I'm still mentally grossed out by meat, by I'm starting to care less and less about it as a moral issue. Some of those animals have to die anyway, or there would be overpopulation, right?

Jesus
02-16-2009, 01:03 PM
Anyway, I used to shop at co-ops when I had a little more money to spend (before I started saving up for my flight). I've tried to shop at co-ops for the same amount I'd spend at Cub or Rainbow... but I always go home with way less food. I generally spend about $60 a month on food; when I shopped at co-ops, I was spending over $100 a month. Vegetables were considerably more expensive, as were simple things like pasta and spaghetti sauce. A jar of brown mustard was $5 instead of $2 for the same amount... things like that. It all added up very quickly for me, and at this point I can not afford to shop at co-ops. Sucks because I generally like organic food better.

I've seen the cost issue raised a couple times here, but it's generally not helpful to base your judgment on the consumer price, because that's not "the actual cost". Livestock is heavily subsidized via agricultural subsidies so that makes the consumer price lower than it actually would be. Add to that externalities (climate change) and meat is priced heavily below the "real" market price.

Little_Miss_1565
02-16-2009, 01:52 PM
I can't think of one man that I know personally past the age of 25 who is a vegetarian. I'm still mentally grossed out by meat, by I'm starting to care less and less about it as a moral issue. Some of those animals have to die anyway, or there would be overpopulation, right?

Most of my friends are considerably older than 25 and a whole boatload of them are vegetarian.

Outerspaceman21
02-16-2009, 01:55 PM
Most of my friends are considerably older than 25 and a whole boatload of them are vegetarian.

It's probably just the crowd we put around us. Everyone meets and hangs out with someone different.

Rutegard
02-17-2009, 03:46 AM
I can't think of one man that I know personally past the age of 25 who is a vegetarian. I'm still mentally grossed out by meat, by I'm starting to care less and less about it as a moral issue. Some of those animals have to die anyway, or there would be overpopulation, right?

not necessarily :)
there are tons of cows and other eatable animals because we demand so, because humans eat them. that's all. sometimes i talk to those persons that sell meat (dunno the exact name) when i go with my mom buying meat (i dont need to mention how i hate it there lol) but one time this guy was talking about how people are buying less meat nowadays, and i just have read an article few days later talking about how portuguese vegetarians were starting to increase, and so i asked him if he has to order less meat considering that ppl are themselves buying less meat too, and he said that he really orders less meat than he did not too long ago. i asked him if he thinks that it has something to do with vegetarians (he didnt know i was one of them) and he said, maybe, but in my family people had to cut the meat intake due to medical issues, and i was like..."oh yeah, that too" lol

so then i asked as a final remark, always concerned, how was he dealing with the low profit intake, and he said, now i sell vegetarian alternatives! and i thought, well, somehow, this guy is smart! he is adapting and is going to stay alive!

if gradually, more and more ppl decide to turn vegetarians, of course more and more animals wont have to be killed. of course gradually, in a slow way. human population will never become vegetarians at the same freaking time lol (i wished:P)

oh and the india thing, not sure if someone talked about it, but i've been told, by a bunch of ppl, that if ppl dont eat cows, they will overpopulate and walk in the middle of the road creating car accidents and they give india as an example, but dudes, their cows walk in the streets like dogs, and they r just too many, cause cows are sacred animals and they do not control their population! we all have the same problem with stray cats and dogs (more cats tho). i think it's sweet of them to worry about stuff like these, but honestly, they really need to learn a lil bit more. but i like it, at least ppl r thinking about it right? it has to mean something

T-6005
02-19-2009, 03:44 PM
Aside from my comment about Rome, I could never be a vegan.

Milk and eggs are two of my basic joys in life, and I will die before I give them up.

Vegetarian - I wouldn't mind so much. I love meat in all its forms but giving it up just doesn't seem like that big a deal.

Also, is it just me or do a lot of you seem to be assuming that herd of livestock left to their own devices would immediately cause an overpopulation problem? I mean, I don't know how many of you have seen real cows, but those fuckers would never survive in any sort of wild.

Al Coholic
02-19-2009, 04:33 PM
^If their population doesn't explode unchecked, then they'll certainly die in mass numbers. As is you have thousands of cattle packed into the smallest areas, with feed brought in in truckloads. Left to their own devices yes, I think a lot of them would starve, and that hardly seems humane.

Rutegard
02-20-2009, 08:28 AM
I mean, I don't know how many of you have seen real cows, but those fuckers would never survive in any sort of wild.

True


Left to their own devices yes, I think a lot of them would starve, and that hardly seems humane.

True

IF, and only IF, humans decided, IN MASS, to stop eating them. and that, my friends, will NEVER happen!!

chicapowerpunk
03-13-2009, 05:23 PM
viva el vaganismo