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[DJ_bj]
04-16-2009, 09:29 AM
does anyone agree with me that it's stupid for people to call people who hate obama "racist" even when the reason they hate him isnt because he is black. :confused:

SweetTatyana
04-16-2009, 09:47 AM
Not if they have a legit/logical reason for disliking him. Although, what would be some examples that are leaving people surly?

Anyone who takes the restrictions off stem cell research as well as allocates more funds to research for rehabilitation and treatments for the disabled are okay with me :)

Llamas
04-16-2009, 03:12 PM
Some things to dislike:

His views on abortion (I strongly disagree with partial birth abortion, and his views on letting babies that survive abortion die after being born.)

If you're rich, his views on taxes.

His support of FISA and protecting organizations that spy on citizens.

I dunno, there are a million reasons to hate any politician. To think that any politician or any president ever is or was without any huge flaws would be crazy... but I still support Obama.

SweetTatyana
04-16-2009, 03:22 PM
Yeah partial birth abortions are very brutal really unless someones life is in dire danger, abortions after 12-13 weeks shouldn't be happening. I think partial birth abortions are done 15-16 weeks in or something otherwise its the vacuum or pill method eh? But yeah agreed, you shouldn't be able to (and I'm surprised people might want to) abort that late in pregnancy when partial birth is necessary.

Al Coholic
04-16-2009, 05:18 PM
Yeah, but that's an easy one. Nobody's making that argument on a serious level. What gets me more is when sexism is thrown into the argument, and women politicians are often either handled with kid gloves, or patronized for not being handled with kid gloves. Either way they lose.

And as a man, its particularly annoying to me when a woman is patronizing to other women. I understand there's a glass ceiling and all, and they have what to overcome. But its still annoying, especially since any man that was patronizing to other men would be smeared as a woman-hating, sexist, chauvenist bastard.

Call me sexist, the double-standard is still annoying.

NGNM85
04-16-2009, 08:44 PM
Yeah partial birth abortions are very brutal really unless someones life is in dire danger, abortions after 12-13 weeks shouldn't be happening. I think partial birth abortions are done 15-16 weeks in or something otherwise its the vacuum or pill method eh? But yeah agreed, you shouldn't be able to (and I'm surprised people might want to) abort that late in pregnancy when partial birth is necessary.

It seems both of you missed my post...

"Lets try to cut through some of the horseshit surrounding this issue. First of all "Partial Birth Abortion" is NOT a medical term. It was created by religious extremists because it sounds good, and it frames the debate. What this actually means is a Dialate and Extract procedure in the later stages of pregnancy. First of all, this is hardly a common procedure, it makes up about .2% of all abortions performed in the country. Also, the procedure does not always take place in the third trimester, some are performed beforehand. Most of these cases, which are in the minority, mind, it's done for the life of the mother, or if the child is seriously deformed, say born without vital organs, like a heart or a brain."
__________________

SweetTatyana
04-16-2009, 09:59 PM
It seems both of you missed my post...

"Lets try to cut through some of the horseshit surrounding this issue. First of all "Partial Birth Abortion" is NOT a medical term. It was created by religious extremists because it sounds good, and it frames the debate. What this actually means is a Dialate and Extract procedure in the later stages of pregnancy. First of all, this is hardly a common procedure, it makes up about .2% of all abortions performed in the country. Also, the procedure does not always take place in the third trimester, some are performed beforehand. Most of these cases, which are in the minority, mind, it's done for the life of the mother, or if the child is seriously deformed, say born without vital organs, like a heart or a brain."
__________________

Yes, well I am not going to come online and say an intact dilate and extract abortion because that sounds pompous and more people know what a partial birth abortion is. Nor did anyone say it was a medical term. In the United States it makes up much less than 1% of the total abortions per year, which still translates to something like 3000 abortions. Our problem with is wasn't that it was some ramped, widespread problem. We are agreeing that it should only be aloud if the mother's life is at stake however, for purposes of a general abortion I do not feel it should be aloud. Its one thing to terminate a pregnancy when the foetus is a mass of cells but 20+ weeks is not okay, premature babies born at 25 weeks have more than a 50% chance of survival. There isn't much excuse for waiting five months before deciding to have a abortion.

Llamas
04-16-2009, 11:25 PM
Generally agreed. And a heart or brain are organs that would be noticed long earlier.

Al Coholic
04-17-2009, 07:53 AM
There isn't much excuse for waiting five months before deciding to have a abortion.

I respect the fact that if you're going to allow abortions, you have to draw the line somewhere as to when it should be illegal. Second trimester seems about right, atleast its not an arbitrary point. But this statement is just wrong. Some people don't realise they're pregnant for a long ass time, some people can't afford it, some have to make arrangements and drive long distances... there's a long list of reasons why it took five months.

wheelchairman
04-17-2009, 08:58 AM
Oh an abortion topic, how novel.

T-6005
04-17-2009, 09:05 AM
Oh an abortion topic, how novel.

I'll send you my baby.

SweetTatyana
04-17-2009, 09:18 AM
I respect the fact that if you're going to allow abortions, you have to draw the line somewhere as to when it should be illegal. Second trimester seems about right, atleast its not an arbitrary point. But this statement is just wrong. Some people don't realise they're pregnant for a long ass time, some people can't afford it, some have to make arrangements and drive long distances... there's a long list of reasons why it took five months.

I understand not realizing you're pregnant for the first 3 months maybe 4 but you do start to show at 4. But okay I do understand there are cases that take that long but if you're past 5, I mean, some people have to be more aware of their bodies, there are a lot of signs you are pregnant by then. Like pregnancy is one of the most life altering events that can happen to a woman. Even if the baby is aborted, a natural grieving period still ensues and there is always thoughts of the aborted baby. You have to give it the seriousness it deserves.
The longer you wait for an abortion the more expensive they get as well as the harder they are to find doctors to abort them so you'd actually have to make more arrangements/spend more the longer you wait.

wheelchairman
04-17-2009, 09:49 AM
I'll send you my baby.

What...no? I'm not responsible enough to take care of a child.

You know those plants that only need to be watered once a week?

I killed those.

Al Coholic
04-17-2009, 10:36 AM
I understand not realizing you're pregnant for the first 3 months maybe 4 but you do start to show at 4. But okay I do understand there are cases that take that long but if you're past 5, I mean, some people have to be more aware of their bodies, there are a lot of signs you are pregnant by then. Like pregnancy is one of the most life altering events that can happen to a woman. Even if the baby is aborted, a natural grieving period still ensues and there is always thoughts of the aborted baby. You have to give it the seriousness it deserves.
The longer you wait for an abortion the more expensive they get as well as the harder they are to find doctors to abort them so you'd actually have to make more arrangements/spend more the longer you wait.

Yeah, exactly. The type of women who doesn't notice she's pregnant for almost half a year...probably doing all sorts of things that aren't good for her body...probably a terrible person to be responsible for a human life. Although you'll probably argue at that point the humane thing would be adoption.

SweetTatyana
04-17-2009, 10:39 AM
Yeah, exactly. The type of women who doesn't notice she's pregnant for almost half a year...probably doing all sorts of things that aren't good for her body...probably a terrible person to be responsible for a human life. Although you'll probably argue at that point the humane thing would be adoption.

Who wouldn't? There are so many deserving couples out there that cannot reproduce.

NGNM85
04-17-2009, 01:48 PM
Yes, well I am not going to come online and say an intact dilate and extract abortion because that sounds pompous and more people know what a partial birth abortion is.

It's not "pompus' it's just the correct name. "Partial Birth Abortion" is a propaganda term, like "pro-life" it's a talking point designed to reframe the argument. Dilate and extract abortions are obviously very misunderstood, thats' the biggest part of the problem, a ton of rhetoric and very little in the way of reasoned judgement.


Nor did anyone say it was a medical term.

No, but by referring to it by the religious rights' terms you're framing the debate in a way thats' destructive to reasoned discourse.


In the United States it makes up much less than 1% of the total abortions per year, which still translates to something like 3000 abortions. Our problem with is wasn't that it was some ramped, widespread problem. We are agreeing that it should only be aloud if the mother's life is at stake

Death or serious injury to the mother is the most common reason, it's also performed because the fetus is dead, or it's missing a brain or other vital organs so that it cannot possibly survive. even with our advanced medical technology many serious birth defects can't be detected until the second trimester. This is the reality, as opposed to this myth that there are all these women running around waiting until the third trimester to get an abortion. It's simply not true.This procedure is a last resort, and most states ALREADY have rules barring the procedure too far along in the pregnancy, EXCEPT the aforementioned scenarios. The bills introduced by far right politicians at the behest of religious fanatics often don't even include exceptions for the life of the mother or the other scenartios. should a woman be forced to carry a dead fetus, until she has to get a cesarean? Or carry a baby born without internal organs that might last a few hours on life support knowing only agony if it knows anything? Certainly not.



however, for purposes of a general abortion I do not feel it should be aloud.

Is that an informed opinion?


Its one thing to terminate a pregnancy when the foetus is a mass of cells

If it's a mass of cells then it's an embryo or a zygote. This is part of whart I'm talking about, the language is part of why theres' so much misunderstanding.


but 20+ weeks is not okay, premature babies born at 25 weeks have more than a 50% chance of survival. There isn't much excuse for waiting five months before deciding to have a abortion.

Virtually no-one does, thats' a myth, this is an emergency procedure performed when all other options have failed. At what point specifically in the transformation from a fertilized cell to a fetus does it meet the requirements for what we define as human, I couldn't say, nobody can. As I've said before I have no shortage of greivances with the law in this country but in this case it's pretty perfect. This procedure is available for the poor desperate women who have no other choice, as it should be. I think these women suffer plenty having to deal with a possibly fatal pregnancy or knowing the fetus inside them is dead, or missing necessary organs and all of the emotional implications of that, they deserve this choice, it's the only moral thing to do.

T-6005
04-17-2009, 02:19 PM
At what point specifically in the transformation from a fertilized cell to a fetus does it meet the requirements for what we define as human, I couldn't say, nobody can.

I'd think this one would be pretty obvious - development of the Central Nervous System and rudimentary consciousness.

lalalala

SweetTatyana
04-17-2009, 02:34 PM
If it's a mass of cells then it's an embryo or a zygote. This is part of whart I'm talking about, the language is part of why theres' so much misunderstanding.

Part of the language is not why there is misunderstanding because if you read the argument, you are basically repeating what I say. And I have taken developmental biology courses and I know foetus have hands, feet, brain w/e but as I am typing on an online forum I dont feel the need to type out "it's one thing to abort an embryo as a mass of cells or a foetus at 20+ weeks." It doesnt change my argument nor how most people perceive it and if anyone is going to pick apart little things like that and say "your wrong on your terms" then fine have fun doing that.


Virtually no-one does, thats' a myth, this is an emergency procedure performed when all other options have failed.

Again, I am WELL aware that most instances are to save the life of the woman. But what I am arguing is that it SHOULD be illegal unless the possibility of death to the woman or death to the foetus has already ensued. I think also, at least in canada, even in such circumstances of a late miscarriage, women are still suggested to carry out to full term, although I am not sure on that. Virtually nobody does it for any other reason because it has been illegal for a physician to perform it for any other reason since 2003, and was recently upheld but some other ruling which I am too lazy to pull up now. So to answer your question not only was mine an informed opinion but it was also that of the current law.


It's not "pompus' it's just the correct name. "Partial Birth Abortion" is a propaganda term, like "pro-life" it's a talking point designed to reframe the argument. Dilate and extract abortions are obviously very misunderstood, thats' the biggest part of the problem, a ton of rhetoric and very little in the way of reasoned judgement.

It is not only a propaganda term, everybody other than the medical profession uses it. The law banning it includes the words Partial Birth as a description so I think I'll stick to that usage since the general population knows it by that description.

SweetTatyana
04-17-2009, 02:48 PM
I'd think this one would be pretty obvious - development of the Central Nervous System and rudimentary consciousness.

lalalala

Yeah thats what I was thinking too, once nervous system is developed far enough to establish conciousness but to be honest, I dont know if anyone as established when that happens during gestation? I can't imagine that would be an easy question to experiment on.

EDIT: Actually maybe not since I wouldn't be surprised if actual conciousness that wasnt present until infancy. But then again I do not know enough about conciousness to really argue this so just n/m me

Llamas
04-17-2009, 04:03 PM
Partial Birth Abortion is a more specific sub category of the intact dilation and extraction umbrella. IDX includes extracting fetuses that died in the womb and such, while Partial Birth Abortion involves only the act of actually performing an abortion aka killing the fetus.

Partial Birth Abortion is not a propaganda term, either. It's not a medical term, in the same way that all fruits are also vegetables, but I'm not going to go to the garden center and ask where the vegetable plants are when I'm looking for apple trees. I go by what's common and what people are going to understand more.

Also, Pro Life is no more of a talking point term than pro choice. I know you didn't say anything about pro choice being fine, but it seems like people on either side feel the need to bash the other side's choice of words for that.

Oxygene
04-18-2009, 03:20 AM
You guys should read George Carlin's bit "Not every ejaculation deserves a name"

His views on abortion are pretty interesting I liked the part where he says "conservatives want live babies, so they can raise them to be dead soldiers"

It's really smart, especially as an opening

"Doesn't it strike you as mildly ironic that the people who are against abortion are people you wouldn't wanna fuck in the first place?"

TakesMeNowhere28
04-18-2009, 07:35 AM
Death or serious injury to the mother is the most common reason.

Actually it's not. Death or serious injury to the mother covers a very, very small percentage of abortions. Of all abortions that are done, over 90% is because the baby is "unwanted", "inconvenient", or some other stupid excuse. Not a good enough reason to kill it, in my opinion.

http://www.californiaprolife.org/abortion/whyabot.htm

Satanic_Surfer
04-18-2009, 11:00 AM
I seriously dislike Obama. First i was suprised how he actually managed to throw some peanuts to the people, that wouldent benefit the richest 2% for once. But then on second thought... he frightens me.

This guy takes the words out of my mouth, i advice you to see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwjr65E4HbU

NGNM85
04-18-2009, 11:14 AM
Actually it's not. Death or serious injury to the mother covers a very, very small percentage of abortions. Of all abortions that are done, over 90% is because the baby is "unwanted", "inconvenient", or some other stupid excuse. Not a good enough reason to kill it, in my opinion.

http://www.californiaprolife.org/abortion/whyabot.htm

First of all, it would have to qualify as a person in order to be 'killed", so certainly early abortions wouldn't qualify because considering a zygote or an embryo a person is simply asinine, moreover you're reasoning reduces women to talking incubators and thats' just the beginning, But disregarding that, I was specifically talking about dilate and extract abortions, which ARE usually performed for the life of the mother, or because the fetus is hopelessly compromised or dead. You would benefit from reading the post in entirety before responding.

wheelchairman
04-18-2009, 11:27 AM
This topic from it's inception has sucked. And all the participants who aren't me or Thi have only made it exponentially worse.

I'm serious.

SweetTatyana
04-18-2009, 12:45 PM
Yeah it's really taking away from a forum where the current most popular thread is on bathroom technique.

wheelchairman
04-18-2009, 01:10 PM
Tell me do you have an opinion on gay marriage?

SweetTatyana
04-18-2009, 01:17 PM
I'm assuming you must, since you seem to have an opinion on everything. Even threads that you are not interested in, nor are people forcing you to read or even asking for your opinion. We are enjoying discussing it, and it's not bothering anyone, so there is no need for you to judge it.

wheelchairman
04-18-2009, 01:23 PM
I'm sorry you weren't talking about gay marriage, so I assumed you are talking about abortions and therefore didn't feel compelled to read it.

But please elaborate.

SweetTatyana
04-18-2009, 01:42 PM
Okay yeah, you know exactly what I am saying, there is no need for you to come and judge what we post on. Don't like it? Don't read it, its that simple.

wheelchairman
04-18-2009, 01:43 PM
Last word.

Lol nostalgic.

Llamas
04-18-2009, 07:11 PM
I seriously dislike Obama. First i was suprised how he actually managed to throw some peanuts to the people, that wouldent benefit the richest 2% for once. But then on second thought... he frightens me.

This guy takes the words out of my mouth, i advice you to see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwjr65E4HbU

People who honestly believe that Obama is going to be like Hitler or Stalin or any of that shit deserve no credit for anything ever. I can't bear to listen to these idiots ramble on. I'm sorry, but even if Obama decided he was an asshole who wanted to wipe out all white Christians (which is the only "group" he could arguably go after), he picked the wrong country to do it in. Besides the president of the country, this country has a HUGE number of white Christians in power. What he'd be up against is impossible.

On top of that, Stalin and Hitler had to work under the idea that they could convince the majority of their people that the group they wanted to exterminate was truly scum and bringing down the country so badly that they all needed to be killed. This is impossible in a country like the US where white Christians FOUNDED the country and make up a large percentage of citizens.

Ugh. I'm so sick of people making this retarded argument.

Oxygene
04-19-2009, 01:38 AM
On top of that, Stalin and Hitler had to work under the idea that they could convince the majority of their people that the group they wanted to exterminate was truly scum and bringing down the country so badly that they all needed to be killed. This is impossible in a country like the US where white Christians FOUNDED the country and make up a large percentage of citizens.


Isn't ironic how the group in question is actually truly scum and bringing the country down? :)

Budzy
04-19-2009, 06:22 AM
;1292484']does anyone agree with me that it's stupid for people to call people who hate obama "racist" even when the reason they hate him isnt because he is black. :confused:

Obama? I heard he makes a mean fried rice.

TakesMeNowhere28
04-19-2009, 09:16 PM
The problem with the people who voted for Obama is they kept hearing the word "change" being used ad nauseum during his whole campaign, but did they ever stop to ask themselves "does he mean 'change' in a good way?"? Nope. They just assumed that's what he meant. Well, we'll see if he brings about any "good change". So far I'm not seeing it.

wheelchairman
04-19-2009, 09:45 PM
So you think Obama was campaigning for change in a bad way?

Really?

Are you retarded?

Al Coholic
04-19-2009, 09:48 PM
I just thought he didn't like paper money.

But all my freinds were into it so I just did whatever they were doing.

wheelchairman
04-19-2009, 10:12 PM
Nice, although a black guy asking for change joke is more obvious.

But then again since I don't live in the US maybe that joke has been told a 1000x and it makes people's ears bleed.

Llamas
04-19-2009, 10:16 PM
Nice, although a black guy asking for change joke is more obvious.

But then again since I don't live in the US maybe that joke has been told a 1000x and it makes people's ears bleed.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/black_guy_asks_nation_for_change

IamSam
04-19-2009, 10:26 PM
My personal favorite are people that call Obama a socialist and then say they are going to Canada or what Canada's socialized health care.

Al Coholic
04-19-2009, 10:43 PM
Well Fox will give any right-wing nutjob with a very angry, uniformed opinion a platform from which to shout it. The only concievable, terrible argument I could see catching fire is another terrorist attack being blamed on Obama's very slightly different stance on some Middle East policy. Towards the end, when they had nothing good to say about him, the right-wing's talking point was "atleast Bush kept us safe." I saw Hannity spin the whole affront to civil rights/patriot act BS as "I'm happy he took some rights away to keep me safe." I saw O'Reilly excuse the whole second term as "Well I have my problems with the first term, but atleast he kept us safe."

Personally, I feel that having civil liberties means you can expect a terrorist attack now and again. Its a having your cake and eating it too not happenening kind of deal. And I say that's fine, I'd willingly lay down my false sense of security for real, tangible civil liberties. But dammit, if there's another serious attack, expect the whole conservative machine to drive that point home again and again and again and again. You can toss up economic, environmental, monetary, energy, and any other type of policy to be a more or less even split when its all said and done. But the kind of fear-mongering and terrorist/media induced ferver that would result could send this guy completely out of office.

And I also feel that like it or not, we've made a commitment to current policies and a regime change in four years, and the resulting re-back-tracking in policy leaves billions, if not trillions of dollars wasted, not to mention years of wasted time, and we're kind of in an all-in do-or-die moment here.

...what was the original topic again?

Oxygene
04-20-2009, 01:44 AM
"Well I have my problems with the first term, but atleast he kept us safe."

Yeah those dudes leaping to their death from the burning twin towers looked like they were being kept pretty safe.. I'm sure they felt totally safe jumping to their doom.

Thank you govenor bush

chicapowerpunk
04-20-2009, 04:21 PM
I think that Obama is very Cahrismatic....:)........And I think he wants the best for his country.......;)

wheelchairman
04-21-2009, 07:20 AM
I think Obama works for the Jews. Just like Hollywood.

TakesMeNowhere28
04-21-2009, 08:03 AM
Yeah those dudes leaping to their death from the burning twin towers looked like they were being kept pretty safe.. I'm sure they felt totally safe jumping to their doom.

Thank you govenor bush

And I'm sure the soldiers on the USS Cole felt safe with Clinton in office.

Bipolar Bear
04-21-2009, 08:16 AM
the doctor said my mom should have had an abortion

[DJ_bj]
04-21-2009, 09:35 AM
I think Obama works for the Jews. Just like Hollywood.

amen.........

Oxygene
04-21-2009, 10:07 AM
And I'm sure the soldiers on the USS Cole felt safe with Clinton in office.

Yeah, 'cause rushjimbo and bill o jackoff said Clittin' made them safe... right?

SAFE? the biggest attack EVER on american soil took place under his watch.
DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE WORD SAFE MEANS?

Cbonham5
04-21-2009, 11:37 AM
If you're rich, his views on taxes.



Sheer perfection, ilovellamas! As far as taxes go, i don't think anyone could be angering as many people as my state's (NY) governor David Patterson, an "Obesity tax" that taxes all non-diet sodas? WTF! and most diet sodas are more dangerous because instead of actual sugar they use artificial sweetners which contain the cancer-causing chemical aspartame! so we're trading a few calories for a friggin tumor :mad:

Bipolar Bear
04-21-2009, 11:38 AM
obesity tax?




















































































wtf yeah, diet shit is even worse for your health

Cbonham5
04-21-2009, 11:41 AM
obesity tax?












wtf yeah, diet shit is even worse for your health

AMEN!!! the jackoff should spend some of that tax-money on sunglasses

ad8
04-21-2009, 11:42 AM
I think Obama works for the Jews. Just like Hollywood.
It's obvious, isn't it? I mean, look at his name. His middle name is Hussein. He's such a muslim communist jew...
(damn, why do I feel bad when using the word jew? ...just because I'm german...:mad:)


:rolleyes:

Jesus
04-21-2009, 03:29 PM
This doesn't have much to do with Obama, but fuck this column by Thiessen in the WaPo just shows how fucking scary and insane the neo-cons have gotten. Although that a newspaper prints this stuff is quite scary too:

In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can -- and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that "Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable." The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/20/AR2009042002818.html


It's just scary how it has evolved from "we don't torture"->"well we torture because it works"->"fuck it even if it doesn't work, they deserve it"->"we're actually helping them by torturing, because they need us to do it".

IamSam
04-21-2009, 08:59 PM
Don't let the right wingers see this....

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/birchwl/obamajesus.jpg

Al Coholic
04-22-2009, 01:17 AM
(damn, why do I feel bad when using the word jew? ...just because I'm german...:mad:)[/COLOR]

That's just great.

Cbonham5
04-22-2009, 11:58 AM
Don't let the right wingers see this....

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/birchwl/obamajesus.jpg

that's just too perfect...

Maria Cortez
05-09-2009, 06:11 PM
I love Obama. I'll fight for our rights. So, who's with me? Yikes! =) =) ^_^ xD