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Apathy
05-15-2009, 10:57 PM
So there's this guy I know, you all know someone like him, he seems to make up things about himself because he thinks it will make him look cool if he has an interest or an ideology that is relatively uncommon.

Lately, he's taken to talking about how he's a libertarian and he thinks that it's all badass, and he uses every opportunity he has to slip in how "Taxes are legalized stealing!" and "The government has no right to regulate business",
"Cornelius Vanderbilt wasn't evil, just very very smart!"

Anyway, he seems to have read the wikipedia page on libertarians and decided that this is going to be his I'm cooler than you phase this week. He's taken to trolling every topic of our classes' online discussion board into libertarian shit, and the only one arguing against him is the professor.

So please use this thread to A.) Discuss your feelings on the party B.) Fuel me with anti-Libertarian sentiments to fight off his stupid posts or C.) fight with those people involved in A and B.

Oh, here's a sample of one of his posts.

I am indeed a Libertarian, more specifically a Minarchist. While I do agree with Stefan Molyneux in many areas, I believe it is beneficial to all parties to have a decently organized financial system. His main issue, and mine as well, with the power of the state is the idea of putting trust into a "public" monopoly that is uses guns to achieve its goals as opposed to having a private institution in which the people's involvement is entirely voluntary and caters its services directly to what the people have demand for. The idea of all of this regulation is rediculous. If people had any insight they would be reading their contracts much more closely, do some research before they jump into decisions, and just used some common sense. But apparently it's elitist to be smart or something.

That's why I believe the state needs to get back to the way it was intended: To protect people from physical aggression, theft, proyecting private property, etc.

And in all honesty, I'd be an anarchist if a majority of people weren't so inherently short-sighted and irrational.

As for my philosophy, I am a very strong proponent of the Randian philosophy of rational egoism as the main virtue and measure of man. I also dabble in some Nietzschean principles as well, such as the "will to power".

T-6005
05-15-2009, 11:06 PM
It's not an ideological rebuttal, but it amuses me that people can say that they "dabble" in Nietzche.

It's not really stuff that lends itself well to dabbling.

"Life is meaningless. But only a little."

EDIT - In before people who understand the exact nature of the current political spectrum. As I understand it, Libertarianism is sort of a "small government" system, and Minarchism is a subset of that where, aside from sort of "moral" values, the government takes no hand in the general business or tax or freedom end of things.

It's all free market, in other words. And I honestly think that's all I need to say - because from Milton Friedman to the IMF's "radical restructuring" policies to Free Trade Zones to superpower protectionism to (this is my favorite) "trickle down" economics, that model of organization defeated itself a long time ago. It just happens to be terribly sad that we continue to make use of it when even the blindest proponents of the system should be able to realize that it isn't a sustainable (or a "moral") one.

You don't really have to give a shit about any other aspect of Libertarianism if the people pushing forward its agenda don't realize the failings of the so-called "free" market.

Llamas
05-15-2009, 11:13 PM
I'm libertarian, and I know libertarians... none of us are that fucking stupid.

Blackball_
05-16-2009, 12:49 AM
You don't really have to give a shit about any other aspect of Libertarianism if the people pushing forward its agenda don't realize the failings of the so-called "free" market.

you omitted the failings from your post. can you post a list please?

JohnnyNemesis
05-16-2009, 05:21 AM
I'm libertarian

Fuck.

:(

Jesus
05-16-2009, 07:10 AM
you omitted the failings from your post. can you post a list please?

I'll give my quick list with problem areas for free markets:
-asymetric information
-moral hazard
-limited liability
-principal agents problems; shareholdes/managers/ceo
-adverse selection
-irrational expectations/exuberance/pessimism and black swans
-allocative efficiency and productive efficiency vs dynamic efficiency
-imperfect information
-entry costs, learning curves
-unequal initial conditions
-capital mobility vs humans and goods
-externalities and public goods
-existance of human emotions

wheelchairman
05-16-2009, 08:52 AM
Whenever I meet a libertarian, and generally they don't announce it unless it becomes relevant to the conversation, I'm always surprised. Then I tell them how I think libertarianism is retarded and juvenile.

And then over the course of the evening I'll discover that they aren't really libertarians, they just say they are. Which is almost as retarded, but okay.

Now to steal from JN.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/32825?utm_source=facebook_1

Fractal
05-16-2009, 10:35 AM
Whenever I meet a libertarian, and generally they don't announce it unless it becomes relevant to the conversation, I'm always surprised. Then I tell them how I think libertarianism is retarded and juvenile.

And then over the course of the evening I'll discover that they aren't really libertarians, they just say they are. Which is almost as retarded, but okay.
That fits ilovellamas perfectly.

llamas, never ever say that you are a libertarian without saying that you are a centrist first. I remember you saying that you were a centrist. Also, you like Obama. So what the hell.

I think that, today, anyone without the prefix centre is an extremist.

If you still think that you are a hardcore libertarian, then go to live on an earthlike exoplanet named Norgak. Do whatever you want there and send/sell us all the goods from there. :D

wheelchairman
05-16-2009, 11:03 AM
Yeah I chose to overlook ilovellamas libertarian quote because it just doesn't seem to fit with what she's said before.

There is an interesting difference in the political ideology people chose to follow and the policies they would support in practice. Often they aren't compatible. When I became aware of this division in my own views I decided that in all probability I was a rather miserable communist.

Al Coholic
05-16-2009, 12:10 PM
Perhaps llamas is a registered libertarian the way I'm a registered green; in that I'm a card carrying Green but only to cause platforms to swing that way, and if I ever vote for any of those crackpots its to support third parties. But if it came down to my vote, I probably wouldn't actually elect them.

Llamas
05-16-2009, 02:06 PM
Haha this is funny. It's exactly why I never actually associate with labels and parties and such. I probably shouldn't have said I'm libertarian, and possibly fit into this:

And then over the course of the evening I'll discover that they aren't really libertarians, they just say they are. Which is almost as retarded, but okay.

I probably can't really say I'm libertarian, but I agree with many perspectives and points of view of the party. However, I've never liked a candidate that ran in the party, so I've never voted Libertarian (it seems that the people who run for Libertarian end up being failed Republicans who aren't Libertarian at all).



Whenever I meet a libertarian, and generally they don't announce it unless it becomes relevant to the conversation, I'm always surprised. Then I tell them how I think libertarianism is retarded and juvenile.

I don't usually bring up really ANY labeling about myself unless it becomes relevant to a conversation. I see NO point whatsoever in just being like "Yeah, I'm Libertarian" "Yeah, I'm agnostic" "Yeah, I'm bisexual" unless there's a REASON to bring it up.



That fits ilovellamas perfectly.

llamas, never ever say that you are a libertarian without saying that you are a centrist first. I remember you saying that you were a centrist. Also, you like Obama. So what the hell.

I think that, today, anyone without the prefix centre is an extremist.

If you still think that you are a hardcore libertarian, then go to live on an earthlike exoplanet named Norgak. Do whatever you want there and send/sell us all the goods from there. :D

I'm definitely not a hardcore anything. This is definitely a huge part of why I avoid labels and why I shouldn't have actually just said I'm Libertarian.

How to explain it then: Of all political parties in the US, the fundamental beliefs of the Libertarian party cause it to be the party I most strongly agree with. However, I've never been a person who allows party to dictate my voting; I vote on candidate. Plus, until run-off voting gains speed, a Libertarian vote would be a waste, anyway. I've voted Democrat in both elections I've been old enough to vote in, and then am all over the board regarding senate, governor, etc. But I do know people who associate with the Libertarian party and they aren't complete idiots about it. I've met retarded Libertarians before, but I've met supporters of every party who are retarded.

Oxygene
05-16-2009, 02:06 PM
I'd like to see douchbags libetarian-o-meter when the firedepartment roll out to his moms burning building and start negotiating how much it's worth to him to put the fire out and bring his mom out alive...

wheelchairman
05-16-2009, 04:18 PM
It's kind of punk-rock lame to say that you are against labels, but I agree with you in that I almost never directly label myself unless its relevant somehow, and even then it almost has to be forced out.

It's too easy to be cornered into a stereotype then.

sKratch
05-16-2009, 04:39 PM
There are some points in Libertarianism that I agree with, and some that are pretty damn batshit. For example, the idea that anyone should be able to do whatever the hell they want as long as it only hurts them. How do you define only hurting themselves? What about the drain on society a heroin addict causes? Or the pain to his family? etc.

My main problem, and Ron Paul got kinda pwnt by it a year or so ago on Meet the Press: If you abolish income tax, how do you make up for the government's loss of revenue? Although I suppose a true libertarian will argue that the government doesn't need any money. Seeing as I'm a pretty strong advocate for social welfare that doesn't fly for me.

Bipolar Bear
05-16-2009, 07:58 PM
My philosophy teacher had some libertarian views. He never labelled himself as one though.
I agree with some of it but not to an extreme. Ideally the government should intervene with our lives less than it does now though.

Llamas
05-16-2009, 08:07 PM
It's kind of punk-rock lame to say that you are against labels, but I agree with you in that I almost never directly label myself unless its relevant somehow, and even then it almost has to be forced out.

It's too easy to be cornered into a stereotype then.

:P I'm trupunx. No, it's really just the whole thing with stereotypes and also just that I don't believe things fit into categories. I'm fine with describing things, but I see no point in trying to categorize people - unless you truly, 100% fall into that category without any exceptions.

batfish
05-17-2009, 10:03 AM
The idea of all of this regulation is rediculous.
He spelled ridiculous wrong. :eek:
I don't know anything about Libertarianism but felt like contributing.

NGNM85
05-18-2009, 12:17 AM
My main problem, and Ron Paul got kinda pwnt by it a year or so ago on Meet the Press: If you abolish income tax, how do you make up for the government's loss of revenue? Although I suppose a true libertarian will argue that the government doesn't need any money. Seeing as I'm a pretty strong advocate for social welfare that doesn't fly for me.

Libertarians are seriously misguided. Yes, like the republicans they want to demolish social welfare policies, every man for himself. They also want the government completely hands-off with regard to the economy, income tax, oftentimes also pollution, minimum wage, etc. What they seem to fail to realize is that however scary or thratening the state might be, the private sphere is worse. At least the state has some direct accountability. They characterize this the same way as the republicans do in terms of "freedom", except they actually naively believe it. This rests on a childlike conception of freedom. They don't seem to realize that the state is the only mechanism by which the people can hold these private tyrannies accountable, and that by removing restriction they're actuially limiting tjhe freedom and rights of real people over monolithic institutions. Sometimes these people sound like Anarchists and try to act like theres' a connection there, but Anarchism is thoroughly Socialist in nature.

bighead384
05-18-2009, 12:23 AM
Libertarians are seriously misguided. Yes, like the republicans they want to demolish social welfare policies, every man for himself. They also want the government completely hands-off with regard to the economy, income tax, oftentimes also pollution, minimum wage, etc. What they seem to fail to realize is that however scary or thratening the state might be, the private sphere is worse. At least the state has some direct accountability. They characterize this the same way as the republicans do in terms of "freedom", except they actually naively believe it. This rests on a childlike conception of freedom. They don't seem to realize that the state is the only mechanism by which the people can hold these private tyrannies accountable, and that by removing restriction they're actuially limiting tjhe freedom and rights of real people over monolithic institutions. Sometimes these people sound like Anarchists and try to act like theres' a connection there, but Anarchism is thoroughly Socialist in nature.

Man... I love this.

Jesus
05-18-2009, 05:11 AM
Well I'm more or less leftwing libertarian if I had to tick an ideological box. Which has little in common with the US libertarian party which has basically a notion of negative liberty (in the Isaiah Berlin meaning) while leftwing libertarianism has more to do with positive liberty and thus has more in common with social democracy. I tend to vote for either the green party (which has more or less it's foundation here in the odd combo of anarchism and Christian liberation theology/Communitarianism) or social democratic party list, depending on polls and strategic considerations cause my one vote matters! I never vote for an individual.

Because of it's more or less paradoxical nature as a consequence of it's continuous dialectical argument between freedom and social equality/welfare it obviously an easy target of ridicule. Then again it's permanent identity crisis is an aspect I like. Obviously every ideology deals with the trade of between freedom and social welfare (liberal paradox by Sen is a famous example), but in the end these do tend to lean over to one side or bring in God or the Bible or tradition. Although it's not surprising that in the standard western European ideological battle between socialism, liberalism and conservatism it lost since it's not easy to inspire someone with a "well it depends" message.
But I do think social democratic parties did move more or less in the direction of left wing libertarianism after the failure of communism kicked in, same with conservative or christian dem parties with the increase of secularization/agnosticism/atheism. Now if the liberal parties start to realize the same after the failures of laissez faire. It would all look good, except it's being countered by the increase of personality based populist parties and extreme right anti immigrants parties. D'oh.

jacknife737
05-18-2009, 01:29 PM
I'm getting sick and tired of talking to libertarians, especially faux-Libertarians.

It's gotten to a point, where i just sit and smile; and murmur something about "the public good".

http://static.open.salon.com/files/kermit_the_frog1237963302.jpg

chicapowerpunk
05-18-2009, 05:05 PM
Chek this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhnK5zXOwL8

Llamas
05-20-2009, 05:12 PM
HAU, you're really bad at making alt accounts and not being obvious about it :P

Llamas
05-20-2009, 05:41 PM
I just took the political compass test (I think I took this years ago but don't remember the results):

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-2.75&soc=-4.31

T-6005
05-20-2009, 05:49 PM
I am also tending towards the bottom rather than the top. But having just taken it, it turns out that I am much farther left than you are.

Llamas
05-20-2009, 05:56 PM
Yeah, I'm not really very far left. I guess that's part of why I say I'm libertarian - I'm closer to Libertarian than any of the other three.

Oxygene
05-23-2009, 01:46 AM
Oops...

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4603/picture1ury.png

When I take the same shit in Hungarian I'm moderate right, but always leaning towards liberal...