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IamSam
05-27-2009, 01:59 AM
North Korea Threatens Military Action Against South Korea (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aqJijQh1C_78&refer=asia)

Would a Pit Bull attack a Welsh Corgi if it knew there were a pack of Rottweilers hidden somewhere behind the Corgi?

Outerspaceman21
05-27-2009, 08:18 AM
I don't even care anymore.

Fucking Korea...

IamSam
05-27-2009, 05:59 PM
I'm not too worried about any missiles reaching the continental US. I'm more or less worried about a starting of hostilities against South Korea and the US being pulled into that conflict. My one hope would be for China to break their alliance with North Korea and help clean up the mess.

wheelchairman
05-27-2009, 06:17 PM
It seems very very unlikely that this will escalate into violence. The North Koreans wouldn't want to restart a war with the South because they know they would likely lose, and because they rest on a rather unsolid governmental foundation as is.

From what I can understand most political watchers or whatever of North Korea think there is a power struggle going on, Kim Jong-Il's successor is attempting to take power and is trying to woo the military with this kind of thing.

That of course is all speculation.

jacknife737
05-27-2009, 06:48 PM
What was interesting, was that the test was seemingly conducted without consulting Beijing first.

Anyways, this was just saber rattling. Be it trying to coax more aid from the US or part of some inner governmental squabble.

RageAndLov
05-28-2009, 03:35 PM
The North Koreans wouldn't want to restart a war with the South because they know they would likely lose, and because they rest on a rather unsolid governmental foundation as is.



Actually, they are officially still in war with South Korea.

mrs_hollandova
05-29-2009, 06:39 AM
North Korea is such a great country! Planes are landing on highways!

wheelchairman
05-29-2009, 07:14 AM
Actually, they are officially still in war with South Korea.

Yes but when there is almost no fighting, and actual relations between the two countries I really don't think it should count. But in a legal sense, you are right.

Olive
05-29-2009, 11:26 PM
Who gives a shit about Korea?

0r4ng3
05-29-2009, 11:31 PM
Koreans, I'm assuming.

Cock Joke
05-29-2009, 11:41 PM
Who gives a shit about Big Foot?

fixed .

Oxygene
05-30-2009, 04:28 AM
The North Koreans wouldn't want to restart a war with the South because they know they would likely lose, and because they rest on a rather unsolid governmental foundation as is.

MUAHAHAHHA HEHEHEHE ROFL ROFL ROFLMAO MUAHAHH EHEHEH

Looks like someones eaten up a little too much of western propaganda :)

North Koreans would lose the war just like vietnam lost the war and american won :)

Tripolar Bear
05-30-2009, 04:55 AM
I don't think that Obama would start another war.

Also, doesn't North Korea have atomic bomb!?

RageAndLov
05-30-2009, 04:57 AM
Who gives a shit about Korea?


Koreans, I'm assuming.

http://static01.vanzonneveld.net:8080/docs/internet_slang_list/pwnd.jpg

Oxygene
05-30-2009, 09:50 AM
Sounds like a lot of blustering.

If N. Korea actually starts lashing out, it will be squashed in no time.

Please tell me how that's going to happen...

Oxygene
05-30-2009, 10:11 AM
With a bomb. Dropped on the country.

"Vvvvvvvoooommmmm... BANG"

It's waaay to hilly for abomb or hbombs to be very effective, not to mention the fact that I think China may have a thing or two to say about US nuclear bombs going off near it's borders. So that's pretty much ruled out, because it's not effective and it would lead to politicial turmoil.

Take another guess :)

Oxygene
05-30-2009, 05:02 PM
No. First, you tell me why, if N. Korea is so sure of not being suppressed in a jiffy, it didn't strike earlier on.

Well?

Because it's pointless, they would never ever reach their goal of taking back the south, because american and japan couldn't have it that way. It would a be a war with both sides losing. They're idiots, not stupid.

Plus this situation is great for the elite keeps them in power. And the people are spread pretty thin as is, one of the ways the system survives is being in the military is your only shot at a decent life. If the soileders started dying by the tens of thousands that would be a big problem for the regime.

Bipolar Bear
05-30-2009, 05:41 PM
Bombing north korea would be a very, very, very, VERY weak solution
in fact it wouldn't be a solution at all

RageAndLov
05-30-2009, 06:37 PM
Very unhumane, but if someone just nuked North Korea, the world would be rid of the biggest threat to a nuclear war.

Olive
05-30-2009, 10:16 PM
Very unhumane, but if someone just nuked North Korea, the world would be rid of the biggest threat to a nuclear war.

How would nukeing a country get rid of the biggest threat to a nuclear war?? Then they have reason to nuke us.

Oxygene
05-31-2009, 02:34 AM
Very unhumane, but if someone just nuked North Korea, the world would be rid of the biggest threat to a nuclear war.

It's too hilly to be nuked properly anyway, plus they are ready for it with shelters and shit, and you can't nuke an entire country.

Oxygene
05-31-2009, 02:49 AM
Countries that matter should decide on a course of preemptive invasion, then, since nuking isn't the thing, apparently.

No?

You can't.. if the US could do anything else aside from an all-in roll the dice mele it would already have.
North Korea is simply impossible to do anything about why?
1) there is basically 0 intel on the place, it's a black hole
2) they have soilders well into the millions (500K along the DMZ alone)
3) they've been activley and non-stop been preparing for this for 50 years
4) the people are indocrinated by the state to hate outsiders (esp americans), if a liberating army were to invade north korea I'm guessing the army - which is a bitch, but over a year or two could be over come probably at the losses for the invaders into the hundreds of thousands - would be the least of their problems.
5) the mandatory service in the army is roumored to be around 9-11 years
6) taek-won-do is the national sport
7) they have by far the highest portion of their gdp spent on the military (about 60% is the estimate)

And like I said, China wouldn't allow it.. it's an impossible situation, no wonder it's been in gridlock for 50 years with no peace agreement only a cease fire.

Napoleon Bonaparte
05-31-2009, 04:48 AM
Oxy, how do you know so many things about Korea? Do you study politics?

Oxygene
05-31-2009, 05:53 AM
Oxy, how do you know so many things about Korea? Do you study politics?

No but I took a keen interest in North Korea a few years back. The whole country boggles the mind and I did a lot of reading about it. The interwebz is great for that sort of thing.. they still have concentration camps in north korea for example.

Oxygene
05-31-2009, 05:53 AM
I hate to do that, but... *sings* "nothing's impossible, a simple explanation for the evil in this world..."

It's in gridlock because they're afraid to face the dire consequences. Not because there's nothing to be done about it.

China is the disturbing element for me. It really makes me squirm. More so than the fact that N. Korea is a military régime.

Thanks for the info. Gotta get up from this goddamn bed and stir my backside a bit, now. Thank fuck for Sundays.

It's all the same, doing something about it would require waaay too much sacrafice.

RageAndLov
05-31-2009, 09:12 AM
I've heard there are enough nuclear bombs in the world to blow the earth up in the air ten times.
I'm pretty sure the West got enough bombs to nuke little North Korea.
I am aware that it is easier said than done to just nuke a country, especially a country like North Korea which are on guard all the time.

Does North Korea even have any friends? I've read some stuff about the country too, and I learned that North Korea doesn't accept any help from Japan, China etc. The other countries know the North Koreans are starving and want to send food, but the government doesn't want to for some reason (it may appear as if they were weak if they accepted aid?).

Oxygene
05-31-2009, 10:07 AM
I've heard there are enough nuclear bombs in the world to blow the earth up in the air ten times.
I'm pretty sure the West got enough bombs to nuke little North Korea.
I am aware that it is easier said than done to just nuke a country, especially a country like North Korea which are on guard all the time.

Does North Korea even have any friends? I've read some stuff about the country too, and I learned that North Korea doesn't accept any help from Japan, China etc. The other countries know the North Koreans are starving and want to send food, but the government doesn't want to for some reason (it may appear as if they were weak if they accepted aid?).

I don't think abombs exploed exactly in the shape of north korea :)

Wiping it off the face of the earth isn't really an option. It just isn't. Plus killing 20 million innocent people.. not very humane.

RageAndLov
05-31-2009, 11:59 AM
Yeah I know...
I wonder if Kim Jong-il is alive.

Bipolar Bear
05-31-2009, 12:45 PM
USA wouldn't even have a chance to finish nuking a quarter of it before they'd get stopped

also, what the fuck? what type of moron would actually want to nuke a country?

RageAndLov
05-31-2009, 01:24 PM
I wasn't serious when I "suggested" to nuke North Korea.
That is what people who are too ethnocentric would actually want.
Plus North Korea's got one of the most beautiful nature I've seen. I want to visit Lake Heaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_Lake) before I die. Would be a shame to destory that (and all the millions of people living in North Korea).

jacknife737
05-31-2009, 03:36 PM
Does North Korea even have any friends? I've read some stuff about the country too, and I learned that North Korea doesn't accept any help from Japan, China etc.

China and North Korea actually have a very close relationship. Chinese fuel, arms and supplies are essentially the only thing keeping Jong Il in power.

The Council on Foreign Relations has a very interesting article on their relationship, if you are interested. http://www.cfr.org/publication/11097/chinanorth_korea_relationship.html

RageAndLov
05-31-2009, 06:35 PM
China and North Korea actually have a very close relationship. Chinese fuel, arms and supplies are essentially the only thing keeping Jong Il in power.

The Council on Foreign Relations has a very interesting article on their relationship, if you are interested. http://www.cfr.org/publication/11097/chinanorth_korea_relationship.html

Nice article. I didn't know China had so much power or influence over North Korea. North Korea seems pretty helpless without China's help.

Bipolar Bear
05-31-2009, 08:27 PM
I wasn't serious when I "suggested" to nuke North Korea.
That is what people who are too ethnocentric would actually want.
Plus North Korea's got one of the most beautiful nature I've seen. I want to visit Lake Heaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_Lake) before I die. Would be a shame to destory that (and all the millions of people living in North Korea).

holy shit. that place is beautiful..

NGNM85
05-31-2009, 10:18 PM
While Kim Jong Il is hardly a saint by any means, but this should give us pause to take a long look in the mirror. In 2004, the UN voted on the Fissile Materials Ban aka FISSBAN treaty which would have been the best deterrant to nuclear catastrophe. Essentially it would put the control of nuclear materials under an independant international body with firm restrictions, and the means to enforce them, that they be used specifically for power plants and such. According to an IAEA spokesman, without this treaty or something like it, nuclear conflict is "inevitable." The treaty failed, 179 to 2, that is 179 in FAVOR, the two against being Palau, which is smaller than Hawaii and hasn't been a country for very long,....and the United States. Because it has long been the position of Washington that international law is great,...for everybody else. I also want to mention that the most vocal supporter of the treaty was IRAN. (Incidentally, Iran made at least 3 attempts at peace negotiations with the former president, of course they were talking to the wrong administration.)

Our leaders' policies are fanning the flames. The military muscle-flexing of the Bush administration, including building more nuclear weapons, has incurred a demonstratable inverse effect in China, and Russia and elsewhere, to boost their own arsenals. In Russia this is particularly disturbing as their nuclear weapons system is actually automated, and started counting down at least once in response to the launch of a space satellite. Moreover Russia and it's former satellites are desperately poor and nuclear physicists and rocket scientists suddenly find themselves in a desperate situation, with many regimes and, even worse, international terrorist groups delighted to bolster their income. Moreover security in nuclear stockpiles in Khazakstan and other former Soviet States is dubious, especially after Bush cut money to bolster the security. If we continue to go it alone I fear the worst is "inevitable."

Moreover, our power to act unilaterally in part rests on our nuclear arsenal. Whatever we might be saying, the unspoken message to poorer nations, who are usually ignored, is get you're hands on nuclear weapons at all costs, because then people will listen, and North Korea is about as miserable and desperate a country as you're likely to find other than perhaps a handful of African nations.

Al Coholic
06-01-2009, 07:56 PM
I like how you used paragraphs.

wheelchairman
06-01-2009, 08:38 PM
Me too.

However I do disagree with him a little. With the rising powers of China, and Russia an arms race was inevitable. The US will continue trying to maintain its hegemony over international relations, while China and Russia will attempt to safeguard their sovereignty and expand their influence in their own spheres of influence (and perhaps expand their spheres of influence.)

In the midst of all this, Korea desperately wants nukes. It borders both Russia and China, and the US as far as I know doesn't even have real diplomatic relations with the North.

But I'm not too worried, there is one clear hegemonic world power. There is no impending nuclear holocaust, just the very likely increase in over-extension of military engagements. However I chose to believe that Obama will act with some reason in his military policies.

wheelchairman
06-02-2009, 07:51 AM
I don't think Russia is as weak as you view it, Maria. The disputed territories of Abhkhazia and South Ossetia serve a rather obvious purpose in Russian foreign interests, and now it looks as though Georgia is further away than ever from joining NATO. These conflicts could easily be resolved by the Russian military if the Russians wanted to. However I don't know enough about the background of these conflicts to say fully. That is, if NATO is worth joining, the majority of NATO countries (France included) drastically cut their defense budgets in the early 90's and many have continued to do so. The defense aspect of NATO clearly lies in the US military.

As for Kim Jong-Il, it's too bad you fell for the hype that he's a crazy mad-man. I don't know if he is, but his government has done a very good job of never crossing the line into being invaded. However appearing insane can also be a deterrent in itself. :p

RageAndLov
06-04-2009, 05:17 AM
But...would we ever invade NK anyway? Maybe if China turned on them, I guess. But I don't think that any level of batshit-crazy-Asian behavior would result in us actually putting troops on the ground there.

Who are "we"?

Hypno Toad
06-13-2009, 10:15 PM
Nobody likes North Korea. Not even North Korea likes North Korea.


China knows that North Korea is a failed state on stilts, and there's no way in hell they'd sacrifice their relations with the US for their few in-commons with NK.

That being said, I don't think anything is going to happen. North Korea just throws a shit fit, and makes threats every once in a while because they know nobody cares about them. Best thing to do is ignore them, and if something actually does happen, throw them against a wall. I know it's been said before, but the majority of the people will treat the invaders as liberators if a war ever were to happen. The only reason NK has made it this far without a revolution is because of their complete isolation. Once the average-North Korean-Joe sees how much better the countries around them are, no amount of Giant Kim Sung Il statues, crappy karaoke, or stories about dictators blessing their people with slanted desks will ever make them want to go back to their old way of living.

Oxygene
06-14-2009, 01:43 AM
Nobody likes North Korea. Not even North Korea likes North Korea.


China knows that North Korea is a failed state on stilts, and there's no way in hell they'd sacrifice their relations with the US for their few in-commons with NK.

That being said, I don't think anything is going to happen. North Korea just throws a shit fit, and makes threats every once in a while because they know nobody cares about them. Best thing to do is ignore them, and if something actually does happen, throw them against a wall. I know it's been said before, but the majority of the people will treat the invaders as liberators if a war ever were to happen. The only reason NK has made it this far without a revolution is because of their complete isolation. Once the average-North Korean-Joe sees how much better the countries around them are, no amount of Giant Kim Sung Il statues, crappy karaoke, or stories about dictators blessing their people with slanted desks will ever make them want to go back to their old way of living.

You do realize you are just as brainwashed as those poor north koreans except by the other side of the propaganda. How do you plan on oblitirating an able and modern military of at least a million abel bodied well trained soldiers in a terrain like north korea.. draw me a picture will you?

Hypno Toad
06-22-2009, 10:30 PM
You do realize you are just as brainwashed as those poor north koreans except by the other side of the propaganda. How do you plan on oblitirating an able and modern military of at least a million abel bodied well trained soldiers in a terrain like north korea.. draw me a picture will you?

Western nations have fought in much worse conditions. Learn your history.

Most of the military recruits in North Korea only do it Because it is pretty much the only job to do. It's like working at mcdonalds, you get treated like shit, you work in shit, you get paid shit, so why the fuck do you care about what happens to the company? My point being, other than the fanatics, I doubt that the average NK soldier has very high moral, and really actual gives a genuine damn about the cause.

From a tactical standpoint, I can guarantee you that NK will get flattened. They use outdated equipment, their standard AT weapon can't even penetrate the armor on a modern American M1A2 TUSK. North Korea, despite the mountainous areas, is very well suited for war. It is pretty dry most of the year round, there are no jungles or rain forests, and the vast majority of terrain is flat and/or grassy. Just take a look on google earth.

Also, the only info I am really getting on NK, is what I've read in left wing magazines, and the stuff in this documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ6E3cShcVU). So don't call me brainwashed.

IamSam
06-22-2009, 10:36 PM
Western nations have fought in much worse conditions. Learn your history.

Most of the military recruits in North korea only do it Because it is pretty much the only job to do. It's like working at mcdonalds, you get treated like shit, you work in shit, you get paid shit, so why the fuck do you care about what happens to the company? My point being, other than the fanatics, I doubt that the average NK soldier has very high moral, and really actual gives a genuine damn about the cause.

Why no Hypno Toad, learn me some history!

Oxygene
06-23-2009, 01:41 AM
Western nations have fought in much worse conditions. Learn your history.

Most of the military recruits in North Korea only do it Because it is pretty much the only job to do. It's like working at mcdonalds, you get treated like shit, you work in shit, you get paid shit, so why the fuck do you care about what happens to the company? My point being, other than the fanatics, I doubt that the average NK soldier has very high moral, and really actual gives a genuine damn about the cause.

From a tactical standpoint, I can guarantee you that NK will get flattened. They use outdated equipment, their standard AT weapon can't even penetrate the armor on a modern American M1A2 TUSK. North Korea, despite the mountainous areas, is very well suited for war. It is pretty dry most of the year round, there are no jungles or rain forests, and the vast majority of terrain is flat and/or grassy. Just take a look on google earth.

Also, the only info I am really getting on NK, is what I've read in left wing magazines, and the stuff in this documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ6E3cShcVU). So don't call me brainwashed.

No it isn't like working at McDonalds.. everything you've just said clearly proves you are clueless towards eastern mentalitiy.

You have a country where the only option for survival and a healthy life and to be fed properly is by joining the army
Which by the way, rumors have it is mandatory for all males for 7-11 years
You have a country where the entire people is indoctrinated to believe that everything wrong with their country is do to the korean war and american military agression.
They are spoonfed the ideology daily, and they have been so for 50 years.
They have over.. well over 1 million active soilders.. at least 500 000 along the DMZ.
The reason the US does nothing despite direct nuclear threat is because it can only do so at a tremendus price..

Omni
06-23-2009, 06:01 AM
They have over.. well over 1 million active soilders.. at least 500 000 along the DMZ.


I don't really know much about politics, so I'm not going to say who's wrong or right, but this really isn't that daunting of a number. Half a million to one million? The U.S army alone has 1.1 million, the U.S Navy having a little under 350,000, the Air Force around the same amount, 200,000 in the Marines (our most well-trained, elite branch), and 50,000 in the coast guard. I don't know if the National Guard is counted separately from the rest (I'm sure it's not, but I'll throw the number out there anyway), but it's numbers are about 450,000.

I know having the home advantage, fighting spirit, better commanders, etc and so forth all come into factor, so I'll withold my opinion about that. But in a strength-by-numbers situation, a million people isn't very threatening.

Oxygene
06-23-2009, 06:19 AM
I don't really know much about politics, so I'm not going to say who's wrong or right, but this really isn't that daunting of a number. Half a million to one million? The U.S army alone has 1.1 million, the U.S Navy having a little under 350,000, the Air Force around the same amount, 200,000 in the Marines (our most well-trained, elite branch), and 50,000 in the coast guard. I don't know if the National Guard is counted separately from the rest (I'm sure it's not, but I'll throw the number out there anyway), but it's numbers are about 450,000.

I know having the home advantage, fighting spirit, better commanders, etc and so forth all come into factor, so I'll withold my opinion about that. But in a strength-by-numbers situation, a million people isn't very threatening.

Yeah keep in mind that a)
1) 1 million is the most modest guess
2) They would be on a defending position not an attacking one which means you require 5 fold less force then you opponent
3) You think China would have something to say about it?
4) It would require the vast majority if not all of US forces..

And I'm not saying it can't be done.. I'm saying it would a take an unreasonbly huge sacrifice.. assuming that North Koreans don't give a shit they'll just drop their agenda when they see american tanks coming is wrong. It's not impossible.. if the US dedicated all its resouces to retaking North Korea it could accomplish that, but it's not worth it.. It easier to wait for it to implode on it's own... that has the added benefit of not provoking anyone either.

But it wouldn't be a walk in the park as some make it out to be...

Also keep in mind their national sport is martial arts.. so every citizen is an unarmed guerilla.. and there are 22 million of them, the large majority of which hate the US and Americans more than Hitler did the jews.

IamSam
06-24-2009, 10:45 AM
I just want to point out that the Chinese are already rethinking being friends with North Korea. Look at it from an economic standpoint of what would happen to the massive amounts of trade that the US and China do. Plus, can they still logically stand behind another Communist country when that countries lead has gone off the deep end?

IamSam
06-24-2009, 02:26 PM
Western nations have fought in much worse conditions. Learn your history.

Most of the military recruits in North Korea only do it Because it is pretty much the only job to do. It's like working at mcdonalds, you get treated like shit, you work in shit, you get paid shit, so why the fuck do you care about what happens to the company? My point being, other than the fanatics, I doubt that the average NK soldier has very high moral, and really actual gives a genuine damn about the cause.

From a tactical standpoint, I can guarantee you that NK will get flattened. They use outdated equipment, their standard AT weapon can't even penetrate the armor on a modern American M1A2 TUSK. North Korea, despite the mountainous areas, is very well suited for war. It is pretty dry most of the year round, there are no jungles or rain forests, and the vast majority of terrain is flat and/or grassy. Just take a look on google earth.

Also, the only info I am really getting on NK, is what I've read in left wing magazines, and the stuff in this documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ6E3cShcVU). So don't call me brainwashed.

Ok, so here we go. IamSam's debunking post. I couldn't stand it anymore.

After looking at Google Earth which shows a nice plain with massive mountains to the east, (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=North+Korea&sll=39.728313,126.897583&sspn=2.779771,5.817261&ie=UTF8&ll=39.601456,127.034912&spn=2.784877,5.817261&t=h&z=8)I have a question for you:

What makes you think that the North Koreans would play fair and come out to make war in the plain? Have you never heard of the battle of Iwo Jima or the battle of Okinawa from World War II? Korea would be much the same experience and I'll explain.

Here you have a large militaristic country with great strategic positions in the mountains already set and waiting for an army to try and come get them. They wouldn't leave those fortifications, and if they did then they are quite a bit more stupid than I think they are.

Next point, you mention the M1A2 TUSK. I ask you this: Can you move troops with an Abrams? No. You can't. This means that you would have to continue to use APC's (armored personnel carriers for you playing the home game) which are quite a bit more vulnerable to things. Including your "outdated" RPG which still packs quite a punch with its shaped warhead. Troops would also be moved by helo which are just as vulnerable to SAMs (surface to air missiles) as a HUMVEE is to an RPG or roadside bomb.

You have all the characteristics of a gung-ho teenager, looking at only technical specifications while not looking at the strategic problems of a war with North Korea.

The shadow
06-24-2009, 11:57 PM
I have absolutely no clue whatsoever about military strategy but, I'll contribute with this. Seeing how the US has fought its past few wars, I think that everybody is forgetting that the american armed forces don't fight like any other nation.

What I've seen is that they first position their troops as near as possible (Early stage of Desert Shield and the Pre-Irak mass up in Kuwait), but they don't use the ground troops first. They send in the stealth bombers to take out the enemy's air defenses so that conventional bombers can blow everything up. And I mean everything. The americans would destroy most of the Korean army, navy and air force without any possibility for the Koreans to defend. The US has total air superiority and they use it very effectively in conventional conflicts. So you've got to take the Korean firepower and substract a very important part of it before actual ground fighting starts.

Intelligence to find the targets you ask?. Spy satellites. They can't find all targets?. They can find most. They couldn't find WMD's in Irak?. They found everything else.

The air campaing could last over a month and then, the ground campaing could be handled in several ways, but all of them with an overwhelming advantage for the US. Complete air superiority means full air support and that is decisive in conventional warfare, for what I understand.

So, the only chance for the Koreans would be guerrilla warfare. You see, the americans had a very hard time adapting to irregular warfare in Vietnam but when in 1973 (I think), the North Vietnamese returned briefly to conventional tactics, the US kicked their asses easily and never fought that way again with the americans.

As for the M1 and the helo-airborne troops, that's true but, in the Gulf War, the americans effectively used those thanks against enemy armored divisions while the light infantry, airborne infantry and mechanized infantry divisions avoided armored enemies and were directed exclusively towards other infantry units. Of course, this was a special conflict with different situations but, the american strategy I think would be the same.

The major military issue nowdays, ironically, is not wether the US will win or not the initial war; the issue is what happens later. An ocupation is the strongest weapon a defending army could use against the americans.

Hypno Toad
06-29-2009, 06:08 AM
Ok, so here we go. IamSam's debunking post. I couldn't stand it anymore.

After looking at Google Earth which shows a nice plain with massive mountains to the east, (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=North+Korea&sll=39.728313,126.897583&sspn=2.779771,5.817261&ie=UTF8&ll=39.601456,127.034912&spn=2.784877,5.817261&t=h&z=8)I have a question for you:

What makes you think that the North Koreans would play fair and come out to make war in the plain? Have you never heard of the battle of Iwo Jima or the battle of Okinawa from World War II? Korea would be much the same experience and I'll explain.

Here you have a large militaristic country with great strategic positions in the mountains already set and waiting for an army to try and come get them. They wouldn't leave those fortifications, and if they did then they are quite a bit more stupid than I think they are.

Next point, you mention the M1A2 TUSK. I ask you this: Can you move troops with an Abrams? No. You can't. This means that you would have to continue to use APC's (armored personnel carriers for you playing the home game) which are quite a bit more vulnerable to things. Including your "outdated" RPG which still packs quite a punch with its shaped warhead. Troops would also be moved by helo which are just as vulnerable to SAMs (surface to air missiles) as a HUMVEE is to an RPG or roadside bomb.

You have all the characteristics of a gung-ho teenager, looking at only technical specifications while not looking at the strategic problems of a war with North Korea.

You live in a very special world. Let me just get it all out here:

You brought up Okinowa, even though that was a nasty battle, it was a crushing defeat for the Japanese.

I just find it funny when people try to correct me on this crap, Look at the war in Iraq (not including the insurgency part) the conventional Iraqi forces had their back broken within weeks. Weapons mean almost shit when it comes right down to it, it's all about training, and god knows the North Koreans don't have that. North Korea military may be big, but the soldiers are poorly equipped, and don't have any modern training (compare this (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/80/267569490_0e78388ac8.jpg), to this (http://www.defenselink.mil/home/faceofdefense/images/pr20061011a1.jpg)) and no experience what-so ever. Firing an AK47 or an RPG7 (even a PG7-VR warhead has little chance of penetrating, let alone doing any significant damage to modern tank armor)

The only reason that the US/UN didn't win the Korean War was because the Chinese joined in to help the North Koreans. What does a pseudo-communist economic boomhouse like China want to have to do with North Korea nowadays? Nothing, that's what. The North Koreans were royally screwed last time until China stepped in, and they'll be even more screwed this time, because not only has Western forces training improved substantially, so has the technology.

I'm not sure what you're on about with "You have all the characteristics of a gung-ho teenager, looking at only technical specifications while not looking at the strategic problems of a war with North Korea." It's unfortunate that the poorly trained western forces havn't figured out how to fight on mountains yet [sarcasm]


Really my whole point with this, is I'm trying to get it through your skull that the North Korean Military will be demolished in a short matter of time, that's not a matter of opinion, that is fact. Now, on the other hand, an Insurgency/Guerrilla war in those mountain conditions would be difficult; but I am not talking about that, I'm simply talking about the Korean Peoples Army.

The North Koreans are most likely fielding the SA7 for their standard SAMs. Let me tell you something, with the countermeasures on a modern jet fighter, I'd be surprised if they could even get one of those missiles off the ground. I don't think there's been one jet shot down in Iraq, and both the Iraqi Army and Insurgents both field that. Even one of those big chunky SAM sites would likely be taken out by a Maverick before the operator can even say "oh fu-". We are talking about a country that has absolutely no money. Show me their sterling military budget? You can have all the soldiers you fucking want when you're North Korea, But that doesn't mean you can make weapons and a proper training budget appear out of thin air. There's only so much you can do with a Type 56 and a couple of hand grenades.

If you want to get an idea of how an average tank battle will go over, take a look for yourself. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting) The Americans and British armor lost 1 APC, and destroyed 125 Iraqi armored vehicles, crewed by veteran tankers. That had nothing to do with technology, that was training alone. Just look, 1 - 125. Do you see the point I am trying to make here? The Iraqi forces at least had a decent training budget, and battle experience, and they got absolutely shitkicked. Even with the North Koreans and their foothills, and fortifications, the western troops are trained to deal with that. That is even assuming that the North Koreans havn't surrendered by that point.

Also, you seem to be thinking that infantry do the brute work. What is this, world war 1? everything is done by aircraft, artillery and tank now. Infantry are for holding ground, and clearing urban areas. Mountains fortifications are simply dumb for a conventional force to use, it's like "Hey, why not just make more of these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_upy14pesi4) and drop them on us"

Now I may be a "gun ho teenager" according to you, but you have no understanding of tactics, history, strategics or military technology, so I don't know where you get your nerve from. You seem to be greatly overestimating the Korean people's Army, and you history examples don't apply much to the current situation in their context. The Americans didn't have helicopters, laser guided missiles, and thermal vision during WW2. If they had, Okinawa would have been over a lot faster.


I'll just stay out of here now, if you even try to make a counter argument, that just screams you are incredibly misinformed, and I shouldn't even bother explaining it to you again.

zsk
06-29-2009, 08:29 AM
bomb them away!
nobody cares....






( BTW: That's a joke,so don't take it seriously again :rolleyes: )

Oxygene
06-29-2009, 08:53 AM
May I ask what happens the 2nd day of the war, when soul and tokyo are hit by the North Korean nukes (and maybe even LA?)

Can you tell me how 1 month of carpet bombing is going to solve that?

IamSam
06-29-2009, 10:59 AM
You live in a very special world. Let me just get it all out here:

You brought up Okinowa, even though that was a nasty battle, it was a crushing defeat for the Japanese.

I just find it funny when people try to correct me on this crap, Look at the war in Iraq (not including the insurgency part) the conventional Iraqi forces had their back broken within weeks. Weapons mean almost shit when it comes right down to it, it's all about training, and god knows the North Koreans don't have that. North Korea military may be big, but the soldiers are poorly equipped, and don't have any modern training (compare this (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/80/267569490_0e78388ac8.jpg), to this (http://www.defenselink.mil/home/faceofdefense/images/pr20061011a1.jpg)) and no experience what-so ever. Firing an AK47 or an RPG7 (even a PG7-VR warhead has little chance of penetrating, let alone doing any significant damage to modern tank armor)

The only reason that the US/UN didn't win the Korean War was because the Chinese joined in to help the North Koreans. What does a pseudo-communist economic boomhouse like China want to have to do with North Korea nowadays? Nothing, that's what. The North Koreans were royally screwed last time until China stepped in, and they'll be even more screwed this time, because not only has Western forces training improved substantially, so has the technology.

I'm not sure what you're on about with "You have all the characteristics of a gung-ho teenager, looking at only technical specifications while not looking at the strategic problems of a war with North Korea." It's unfortunate that the poorly trained western forces havn't figured out how to fight on mountains yet [sarcasm]


Really my whole point with this, is I'm trying to get it through your skull that the North Korean Military will be demolished in a short matter of time, that's not a matter of opinion, that is fact. Now, on the other hand, an Insurgency/Guerrilla war in those mountain conditions would be difficult; but I am not talking about that, I'm simply talking about the Korean Peoples Army.

The North Koreans are most likely fielding the SA7 for their standard SAMs. Let me tell you something, with the countermeasures on a modern jet fighter, I'd be surprised if they could even get one of those missiles off the ground. I don't think there's been one jet shot down in Iraq, and both the Iraqi Army and Insurgents both field that. Even one of those big chunky SAM sites would likely be taken out by a Maverick before the operator can even say "oh fu-". We are talking about a country that has absolutely no money. Show me their sterling military budget? You can have all the soldiers you fucking want when you're North Korea, But that doesn't mean you can make weapons and a proper training budget appear out of thin air. There's only so much you can do with a Type 56 and a couple of hand grenades.

If you want to get an idea of how an average tank battle will go over, take a look for yourself. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting) The Americans and British armor lost 1 APC, and destroyed 125 Iraqi armored vehicles, crewed by veteran tankers. That had nothing to do with technology, that was training alone. Just look, 1 - 125. Do you see the point I am trying to make here? The Iraqi forces at least had a decent training budget, and battle experience, and they got absolutely shitkicked. Even with the North Koreans and their foothills, and fortifications, the western troops are trained to deal with that. That is even assuming that the North Koreans havn't surrendered by that point.

Also, you seem to be thinking that infantry do the brute work. What is this, world war 1? everything is done by aircraft, artillery and tank now. Infantry are for holding ground, and clearing urban areas. Mountains fortifications are simply dumb for a conventional force to use, it's like "Hey, why not just make more of these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_upy14pesi4) and drop them on us"

Now I may be a "gun ho teenager" according to you, but you have no understanding of tactics, history, strategics or military technology, so I don't know where you get your nerve from. You seem to be greatly overestimating the Korean people's Army, and you history examples don't apply much to the current situation in their context. The Americans didn't have helicopters, laser guided missiles, and thermal vision during WW2. If they had, Okinawa would have been over a lot faster.


I'll just stay out of here now, if you even try to make a counter argument, that just screams you are incredibly misinformed, and I shouldn't even bother explaining it to you again.

First, I want to deal with your final snippy comment: I have spent the majority of my life devoted to studying the US military, its equipment and tactics. I'm not arguing your technical/tactical points. I agree with you on those. I'm talking strategically. Everyone knows that in a tank battle the US dominates with the Abrams. What you're looking over is the strategic side to war as in battle plan, the effects of terrain, etc.

I just spent about an hour the other day talking to a friend of mine that was in in the USMC. He was a sniper who has been based in Korea, fought in Iraq, and was on the presidential protection detail. Once again, he asserted that our technology beats North Korea easily. But once again he said strategically it would be a bitch to fight. The mountains of Korea pose the same issues the mountains of Afghanistan have, and how long have we been muddied there? In the end it is most probable that we would win, I'm not discounting that, but to blow off North Korea as a third world country is foolish. Never count an opponent out.

And finally I have a problem with your argument style. No where did you say anything about the points I made concerning troop transports and anti-tank weapons. You're also acting as if there would be no urban combat and ground troops wouldn't be needed. You're pictures were laughable (yes, let's compare North Korean troops without combat gear resting on a wall versus a fully decked out Marine!) and you assuming the North Koreans will just roll up is deplorable. This isn't Iraq and the Republican Guard.

But what do I know...I'm only a teacher who has been studying this his entire life...

TheNewDiesease
07-02-2009, 01:14 PM
May I ask what happens the 2nd day of the war, when soul and tokyo are hit by the North Korean nukes (and maybe even LA?)

Can you tell me how 1 month of carpet bombing is going to solve that?

you have to be an idiot if you honestly think NK would actually ever use nukes. Nukes are by far the biggest BS device in politics and war. Nobody will ever use them ever again.

They were only used once, and that was when the tech was still young and the US was the only country with atomic bombs. After that, when Russia got some too, a bomb hasn't been dropped since. Mutual destruction... If one bomb flies, expect thousands more on the opposing end.

If NK was ever to pull such a stupid stunt, expect thousands more to obliterate NK from existence. Even Kim knows this. The reason he builds nukes is to establish himself as a power, not to use them.

RyanSabotage
07-03-2009, 12:27 AM
I don't even care anymore.

Fucking Korea...

i defiantly agree

RageAndLov
07-30-2009, 11:34 AM
Kim Jong-il is undergoind kidney dialysis. (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/445657/1/.html) accoriding to observations.

Oxygene
07-30-2009, 12:47 PM
you have to be an idiot if you honestly think NK would actually ever use nukes. Nukes are by far the biggest BS device in politics and war. Nobody will ever use them ever again.

They were only used once, and that was when the tech was still young and the US was the only country with atomic bombs. After that, when Russia got some too, a bomb hasn't been dropped since. Mutual destruction... If one bomb flies, expect thousands more on the opposing end.

If NK was ever to pull such a stupid stunt, expect thousands more to obliterate NK from existence. Even Kim knows this. The reason he builds nukes is to establish himself as a power, not to use them.

What you are saying hypothesizes rational behavior, and thinking. Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to NK.

Smash_Returns
07-31-2009, 11:45 PM
Idk, Kim Jung Il always struck me as someone with a rational mind...

Oxygene
08-01-2009, 12:47 AM
Idk, Kim Jung Il always struck me as someone with a rational mind...

What gave it away? The jumpsuit, the hair do, the glasses, or the obsession with James Bond movies? :)

renato piquette
08-01-2009, 03:20 PM
who gives a shit about korea?

+1000000000

pArAda
08-04-2009, 01:35 PM
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pArAda
08-04-2009, 02:08 PM
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RageAndLov
08-04-2009, 02:16 PM
Nothing but lies. The North Koreans, who are a free and proud people

How is living under dictatorship involving freedom? For Pete's sake (lol), they aren't allowed to use internet.

pArAda
08-04-2009, 02:23 PM
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pArAda
08-04-2009, 02:29 PM
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RageAndLov
08-04-2009, 02:30 PM
North Korea is the least repressive. You're simply wrong. Every citizen of Free Korea (that is North Korea) has a TV built into his house and with 3-5 channels. Every citizen of North Korea has access to the internet. They're very stalwart people and don't care much for such small trivial things though.

You're simply wrong. Internet is not permitted in North Korea. Even if it was, "every citizen" would not have access to internet because of poverty. NK needs aid from their "allies" because of the bige poverty. How do you manage to make every citizen rich enough to pay for internet and a computer? Listening to South Korean radio is also illegal and the punishment for breaking that law is execution.
Not much for freedom.

pArAda
08-04-2009, 02:43 PM
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jacknife737
08-04-2009, 02:54 PM
http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/0//44/266/44266966_unsuccessful_troll.jpg 10 characters

pArAda
08-04-2009, 02:55 PM
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RageAndLov
08-04-2009, 03:01 PM
You can't prove anything either. I haven't time to search for the links, but I think the user jacknife737 gave me a link once where my facts are supported.
I also have some Norwegian links.

The government can enforce such a law regarding radio stations. Some radio bandwiths are not allowed to listen to, and the government is controlling all radio signals.
And being a single-party state means it is under dictatorship.
Oh, and if the North Koreans are having such a jolly time in their country, why is it that so many North Koreans are tying to flee to China? NK had to put up a wall with barbed wires and snipers to keep thier own citizens from escaping.
NK is not letting many in to their country either. Tourism is open two weeks per year, and all the tourists are permanetly followed by one or two "guides".

pArAda
08-04-2009, 03:12 PM
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pArAda
08-04-2009, 03:50 PM
sorry everyone

RageAndLov
08-05-2009, 03:48 PM
What? Did you find out your facts were not true?

Sheck0
08-05-2009, 07:17 PM
Ok, it's just plain silly to even refer to NK as a free country. Outside of some third world countries, it is literally one of the most repressed countries. Honestly, a lot of the cities in North Korea are just for show since most of the country is poor. Their southern neighbors are fairing a lot better then they are.

Oh and a note on their army: I doubt they have much (If any) moral. Just because a country is repressed and fed propaganda doesn't make it happy, take a look at Iran for example (Although they do at least had internet access and TV, but it was closely watched and censored)

IamSam
08-05-2009, 08:51 PM
Ahhahahahahahahahahhahahaha @ pArAda.

sipptaroowsky
09-01-2009, 08:48 AM
hm, I don't know if anyone has but, I made a thread about naked Germans and someone connected that to racism, ethnic intolerance, and I'm pretty sure it's gonna get to religious intolerance soon so...

allow me to be the first one to call all of you racists

Llamas
09-01-2009, 10:40 AM
hm, I don't know if anyone has but, I made a thread about naked Germans and someone connected that to racism, ethnic intolerance, and I'm pretty sure it's gonna get to religious intolerance soon so...

allow me to be the first one to call all of you racists

Actually it had nothing to do with racism or religious intolerance. None whatsoever. Please stop making things up.

sipptaroowsky
09-01-2009, 12:46 PM
Actually it had nothing to do with racism or religious intolerance. None whatsoever. Please stop making things up.

Hahahaha, when I see how much you try, it makes me feel so precious. You're fantastic, how are things between you and Oxygen?