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Not Ozymandias
01-20-2005, 01:57 PM
Where do you think Santa Claus stands on this hot-button issue? Since he delivers toys to neither Jewish boys and girls nor Muslim ones, he may have a more objective viewpoint than most.

For some reason I see Santa as PLO all the way. Don't know why.
Discuss.

GBH2
01-20-2005, 02:05 PM
santa loves everyone :D although palestinian's really have a better arguement. if both sides stopped all the violence.

Noodles is gay
01-20-2005, 02:29 PM
Neither - one side should realize that this cycle of violence has got them nowhere and it never will. Once that side doesn't retaliate for whatever attack the other side inflicted on them, hopefully the other side will realize how stupid they’ve been and that the violence should stop.

"All you need is love, love love." - Beatles.

Not Ozymandias
01-20-2005, 02:36 PM
And what makes you think Santa Claus feels the same way?

wheelchairman
01-20-2005, 02:40 PM
Of course Santa is PLO.

Anyone with a good heart is PLO.

leo3375
01-20-2005, 03:47 PM
I believe it was Nietzcshe who said something about those who want so badly to fight off the monster becoming the monster themselves. Isreal, founded with pretty good intentions, has become that monster under Ariel Sharon.

wheelchairman
01-20-2005, 03:50 PM
It was the monster before it's foundation. Zionism is terrible.

nieh
01-20-2005, 04:07 PM
Muslims: since Islam is an offshoot of Christianity, they still believe in Jesus, they just believe in other things SINCE Jesus. Jews never accepted him at all and they will burn in hell for that according to the bible.

The Talking Pie
01-20-2005, 04:47 PM
Muslims: since Islam is an offshoot of Christianity, they still believe in Jesus, they just believe in other things SINCE Jesus. Jews never accepted him at all and they will burn in hell for that according to the bible.
Islam is an offshoot of Judaism, just like Christianity (all descendants of Abraham). Same stories, same God, same dogma. They all believe in the Christ, only Christians are the only ones who think it was Jesus.

I have this theory whereby Islam was God's last attempt at getting the idea of faith across to humanity (after which I think he just gave up and left us to rot). This thus places Islam above the others as the most important religion. Given the Islamic stance of the Palestinians, and Santa being God's nephew, he would definately be an adamant supporter of the PLO.

nieh
01-20-2005, 05:09 PM
Islam is an offshoot of Judaism, just like Christianity (all descendants of Abraham). Same stories, same God, same dogma. They all believe in the Christ, only Christians are the only ones who think it was Jesus.

I have this theory whereby Islam was God's last attempt at getting the idea of faith across to humanity (after which I think he just gave up and left us to rot). This thus places Islam above the others as the most important religion. Given the Islamic stance of the Palestinians, and Santa being God's nephew, he would definately be an adamant supporter of the PLO.

stupid high school world civ. They told us Islam was a direct offshoot of Christianity (which in turn makes it a double off-shoot of Judaism).

As for the second paragraph, I've actually ran that through my head before, but it's not something I can say I actually believe, simply because I think all religion are completely man-made (even though I do believe in a God)

Mota Boy
01-20-2005, 06:05 PM
I have this theory whereby Islam was God's last attempt at getting the idea of faith across to humanity (after which I think he just gave up and left us to rot).
What about Bahá'í (http://www.bahai.org/)?


I'd have to say Santa definately favors the Jews. Assuming that ol' St. Nick is as conservative as many current religious leaders, he embraces the Jewish cause much more than that of the PLO. Look at him - he rewards the good kids and punished the bad ones, that's some pure Old Testament shit right there. Santa's not the kindly old elf that American corporations have presented him as over the past century, he's an omniscient bastard that won't hesitate to rein down a little coal on sinning tykes, a grim reminder that if they don't clean up their act before adolescence, it'll soon be fire and brimstone. Yahweh obviously loves the Jews, as Israel still stands (anyone who's read a bit of the OT knows that God's chosen people only win when you-know-who is on their side), and I'm assuming that Santa's sticking with the big guy.

Revolver-2005?
01-20-2005, 06:25 PM
Some of my family lives in Israel...and I myself am Jewish...this is a stupid topic....there is no Santa, the land belongs to the Jewish people because they were there first, then the Arabs took it over, although at this point I'm read to blow both the Israelis and Palestinians off the face of the Earth.

fuckin sweet
01-20-2005, 07:19 PM
Santa Clause is real. He rode around on his pack mule, giving presents to Argentinians (I think Argentinians).

sKratch
01-20-2005, 09:32 PM
Some of my family lives in Israel...and I myself am Jewish...this is a stupid topic....there is no Santa, the land belongs to the Jewish people because they were there first, then the Arabs took it over, although at this point I'm read to blow both the Israelis and Palestinians off the face of the Earth.
I dunno about you, but as an American, I'd be awful angry if the UN told me to get the fuck out of the US because the native americans were moving back in.

HornyPope
01-20-2005, 10:10 PM
It's not about what you think, assholes! This is a Santa topic.



It was the monster before it's foundation. Zionism is terrible.

No, not really, I admire the pioneers that gathered from accross the world to build and fight for their piece of land. Given the time, the circumstances and the context, the Zionists have made absolutly the right move. I would have honestly done the same with zero after-thoughts.

wheelchairman
01-20-2005, 10:20 PM
I think if they had done it in a peaceful-manner it would've been respectful. But it was an all-or-nothing campaign unfortunately. It's not like the Arabs had been particularly unwelcoming, but the Zionists had to make them sound like they were.

Revolver-2005- The Cana'ites were there before the Jews came. They were there after the jews left. They were there when the Arabs came.

HornyPope
01-20-2005, 10:30 PM
What land has been ever conquered in a "peacefull-manner"? They were still fairly peacefull however. They came to Palestine, bought the land, cultivated it, built cities, roads, schools, communuties, accepted the local Ottoman rules (who, as the owners of the land at the time, never attemped to kick the migrant Jews en masse until the first war), sometimes served in the army even. It wasn't until the British protectorate mess that guaranteed a military showdown between the two group with a claim on the land that things started to get nasty.

HornyPope
01-20-2005, 10:35 PM
And what the fuck do you mean the Arabs weren't "unwelcoming" towards the Jewish settlers? Where the fuck do you get your shit from? Of course the Arabs (or better term - the palestinians) didn't like the settlers. They tried to repell them, staged raids against them, and equally worked on the world politics scene to gain any support for their cause. They failed. The Zionists succeed in fighting off a very small piece of the crumbled Ottoman empire. Of course the Palestinians shouldn't be happy about it. But so fucking what?

Izie
01-21-2005, 01:00 AM
Santa Clause is real. He rode around on his pack mule, giving presents to Argentinians (I think Argentinians).

(Jesus)
Santa Claus, is Turkish, he was a Turkish priest. Both the Dutch and us (Belgians) still celebrate Sinterklaas or Sint Nikolaas on the respectively the 5 and the 6th of december. I don't know about any other countries. The way sant claus looks and what he is, is a coca cola invention I guess.

Anyway since he's a turk he'd probably be busy fucking the Kurds and not caring about the innocent ones in both Palestine and Israel.

wheelchairman
01-21-2005, 02:28 AM
[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the ‘rightful’ possession of the ‘Jewish people’ to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants.


Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom [in Palestine]; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.


The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, ‘there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.’ He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms


Even if nobody lost their land, the [Zionist] program was unjust in principle because it denied majority political rights... Zionism, in principle, could not allow the natives to exercise their political rights because it would mean the end of the Zionist enterprise.

In 1936-9, the Palestinian Arabs attempted a nationalist revolt... David Ben-Gurion, eminently a realist, recognized its nature. In internal discussion, he noted that ‘in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,’ but he urged, ‘let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.’ The truth was that ‘politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside’... The revolt was crushed by the British, with considerable brutality.

Just thought I'd highlight these passages.

The purchase of land in Palestina was never with peaceful intent. At least I certainly don't think the export of the poor native masses of the country by purchasing their property and firing the laborers of this property, as peaceful, especially since the goal was to eventually clear the land of Palestinians.

And you are right, unwelcoming was the wrong word.

RXP
01-21-2005, 03:35 AM
That's the first post I've ever seen where Ozy's actually funny. I coudln't stop laughing.

HornyPope
01-21-2005, 11:27 AM
You're confusing a group of Jews in the pre 1860-ish days who were very religious and resided in major urban centers with the Zionist pioneers who came to rural areas to work the land and build a country. The two groups were entierly different in their purposes and time and dealt with the natives as the circumstances permitted. The former had indeed lived with Arabs in harmony for centuries for they were content to merely praise their God in peace, the latter came to establish a nation in any means neccessary. Of course they weren't welcome. But they didn't ask for no welcoming comitee. They merely continued to work this land and fight off the attacks of whoever didn't think they belonged there. They prevailed; and I tip my hat to them.

As for the land in Palestine, i'll amuse you with this one fact. Israel is perhaps the only nation today where no land (except the one purchased before the nation was born) is allowed to be owned privately. All land is owned and administrated by a public branch formed for this specific cause. When you buy a house for example, you turn to them, and they will allocate you a piece. You can do with the land whatever you wish as if it was owned by you, but it never formally is. The whole country is very socialist in nature actually--though its a dying trend. You'll see that if you bothered to look past their agressive foreign policiy.

wheelchairman
01-21-2005, 12:38 PM
oh I'm well aware of that fact, communist circles online (well parts of them at least) try to use this as an example of a good communal-property system. It's just the fact that the treatment of Palestinians and an aggressive foreign policy really does put a very negative balance on the positive aspects.

HornyPope
01-21-2005, 01:18 PM
The (mis)treatement of Palestinians has nothing to do with the roots of Zionism. Many pioneers had arrived to the land of Abraham knowing only that this land is currently a Turkish dominion with occasional Arab villages for native settlers. It wasn't until decades later that the Palestinians adopted that name and unified their efforts to obtain a piece of land following the withdrawl of the Ottomans from the territory.

wheelchairman
01-21-2005, 01:37 PM
Now really, ignorance is a terrible excuse. The former Ottoman/Arab/Cana'ite population was always there. It'd be terribly difficult not to see they were marginalizing another community for the sake of their own nation.

HornyPope
01-21-2005, 01:52 PM
That's not what I meant. The Zionists knew they would have to fight to obtain a piece of land, because that's the how all territories are won, they just didn't fully know the opposition they were to face.

Raz0rz
01-24-2005, 01:26 AM
Well wheelchairman if you think zionism is so terrible...
instead of coming up with lame ass sources have a look @ the real thing.
http://www.hum.huji.ac.il/Dinur/Internetresources/modern/hz.htm
this is the whole history of zionism...if you think you're so smart by picking up few opinions of people @ that time, well have a look at the whole history like it really was.
and if you're interested with the Arab-Jewish struggle, here is a quick link for you http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/concepts/d2.html
I would like to see your comment after you read this through.

wheelchairman
01-24-2005, 02:09 AM
I'll read the sources either tonight or tomorrow.

wheelchairman
01-24-2005, 02:14 AM
The second link when I tried to open it caused my explorer to shoot me with a wave of pop-up trojan virus warnings (I'm using the school's computers right now.) So I am not able to read that at the moment. As for the first link, if you're actually going to give me a link that big, couldn't recommend me a good book on the same subject?

Raz0rz
01-24-2005, 03:56 AM
The second link is from the same site... just look for "The Arab-Jewish Struggle" and i recommend you to check "The Jewish Defense Organizations" aswell.
As for the other subject, well i dont know any good books about the subject that was written in english or so... but i will check it out and see if i could find any.

wheelchairman
01-24-2005, 07:04 AM
I've read quite a ways into the first link, (up into the First Aliyah now,) but I do not see anything that should suggest that Zionism was a fantastic movement.

HornyPope
01-24-2005, 07:37 AM
It's basic history of the Jewish episode in Palestine with a little background on things that led to it. Nothing interesting.

Remember: be an elitist, WCM. People are stupid. Reject all arguments against you outright. Saves time. In nine of ten cases you'll be right on the money. The remaining one time you can either pull out with a help of humour, switch sides and continue arguing as if this was your position all along, or, simply admit to the adversery, if he's a worthy one, that he's a victim of generalisation of all things stupid. He'll understand.

It gets me through the day.

wheelchairman
01-24-2005, 08:47 AM
Well yeah, I was wondering why I just got a history of zionism and Israel, I know enough history, and while it seemed to be not particularly subjective, it was hardly providing anything to counter my opinion.

I'll remember your words pope.

Das Werewolf
01-24-2005, 01:04 PM
Personally I think both Nations should be ashamed of themselves. Abraham, the biblical father of both races will be turning in his grave.

wheelchairman
01-24-2005, 01:26 PM
Not a big fan of Arafat myself (although I'd prefer him over Abbas), however I think that Israel has far more to atone for than the Palestinians.

People shouldn't get me wrong, I am not for the destruction of the Israeli state, but I believe that it is unfairly divided now.

HornyPope
01-24-2005, 08:27 PM
Awww, I think it's adorable how determined you are to voice your opinion on the matter by trying to provoke someone to argue against. Nice try. Here's a hint: employ such terms as Jewnazi and blood-thirsty Zionists and accuse the state of Israel of genocide and demand that Sharon be jailed for war crimes. Someone would most definatly bite then. Can't guarantee the quality of the conversation however.

sKratch
01-24-2005, 08:44 PM
I have a feeling the answer is rather obvious, and I'm just having a dumb moment. But how do both options have the same amount (13) of votes, yet it isn't 50% for either?

HornyPope
01-24-2005, 09:24 PM
Some people voted twice.

sKratch
01-24-2005, 10:40 PM
How would they do that, and why does that fuck up the percents?

wheelchairman
01-25-2005, 05:24 AM
Awww, I think it's adorable how determined you are to voice your opinion on the matter by trying to provoke someone to argue against. Nice try. Here's a hint: employ such terms as Jewnazi and blood-thirsty Zionists and accuse the state of Israel of genocide and demand that Sharon be jailed for war crimes. Someone would most definatly bite then. Can't guarantee the quality of the conversation however.
I'm adorable in all ways shapes and forms. This isn't the first time either, I also made a topic right after the elections, it's quite frustrating.

I would claim those things, but I don't care enough. I did have a friend in my class who is a big supporter of Israel, and he asked me what the mass execution of jews was, and I answered 'pesticide'. total pwn3d.

Not that I'm an anti- semite, he's just easily offended.

Raz0rz
01-25-2005, 10:21 AM
Well yeah, I was wondering why I just got a history of zionism and Israel, I know enough history, and while it seemed to be not particularly subjective, it was hardly providing anything to counter my opinion.

I'll remember your words pope.

Well, I told you exactly where to look, not the whole history...
only "The Arab-Jewish Struggle" since it is the most relevant issue about the subject above.

HornyPope
01-25-2005, 10:47 AM
How would they do that, and why does that fuck up the percents?

Ok, i'll chew it for you too.

See, Vera and willferno (wtf is he?) voted twice. They have votes for both Israel and Palestine. So when the computer calculates the statistics of the poll, it takes the 24 names in total (counting each name only once) and determines the percentage of votes of one particular point (regardless of whether the same name equally appears having voted in a conflicting issue). Israel currently stands at 14 votes (12 of which are unique). The computer determines that 14 out of 24 is 58%. Palestine currently has 15 votes (13 of which are unique). The computer determines that 15 votes out of 24 total is 62%.

DarkDemon
01-25-2005, 11:04 AM
Well I have alot to say about say about that subject, but if i'll write too much people won't bother reading it all so i'll short it as much as i can. By the way, I am not going to be a crying baby or something, just saying things as they are.


I would like to start with say thank you to the guy that wanted to blew both us Israelies, and Palestines aswell, because this is how you solve a problem right?

Now, I don't think anyone of you can judge neither sides, since you don't know what is like to be at any side. I can tell you that is not good being at neither side. Give me one reason why Israel should give away their country? Because the Jews have so many countries to live at right? And I'm not saying that the Palestines are so welcome everywhere eitherm but they had a given the choice of living together back at 67 if I am not mistaken, after they wanted to get all the country, after they have done nothing it it, so they fought for nothing they never had and lost. now Israel offered them living together, but they wanted it all. They fought, and lost. Now they are KILLING THEMSELVES ON US, because we don't want to give away our country, which we built from nothing! If they were really into peace, there was peace long time ago.

I'm not saying that our side is pure either. Whenever I hear about an Israeli soldier killing an innoncent child or abusing a Palestine I am furious as hell, and I think that they should be sent to jail for long long time (which most of the times they are). But don't think that all of the Palestinians kids are innoncent. There are 13 years old children with Uzi's. There are mothers brainwashing their children from early age to hate Jews and kill them in any possible way, even if it means killing yourself. At school they teach them that Jews are the devils. Think of that.

Okay, it is kinda long and still unfinished, but..... have a nice read.

Raz0rz
01-25-2005, 11:13 AM
Good job DarkDemon, you had really puted things as they are.

Btw wheelchairman, I've posted a reply at your other thread "The Only Democracy in the Middle East is Israel (according to who?)" have fun reading it.

wheelchairman
01-25-2005, 12:05 PM
Well I have alot to say about say about that subject, but if i'll write too much people won't bother reading it all so i'll short it as much as i can. By the way, I am not going to be a crying baby or something, just saying things as they are.


I would like to start with say thank you to the guy that wanted to blew both us Israelies, and Palestines aswell, because this is how you solve a problem right?

Now, I don't think anyone of you can judge neither sides, since you don't know what is like to be at any side. I can tell you that is not good being at neither side. Give me one reason why Israel should give away their country? Because the Jews have so many countries to live at right? And I'm not saying that the Palestines are so welcome everywhere eitherm but they had a given the choice of living together back at 67 if I am not mistaken, after they wanted to get all the country, after they have done nothing it it, so they fought for nothing they never had and lost. now Israel offered them living together, but they wanted it all. They fought, and lost. Now they are KILLING THEMSELVES ON US, because we don't want to give away our country, which we built from nothing! If they were really into peace, there was peace long time ago.

I'm not saying that our side is pure either. Whenever I hear about an Israeli soldier killing an innoncent child or abusing a Palestine I am furious as hell, and I think that they should be sent to jail for long long time (which most of the times they are). But don't think that all of the Palestinians kids are innoncent. There are 13 years old children with Uzi's. There are mothers brainwashing their children from early age to hate Jews and kill them in any possible way, even if it means killing yourself. At school they teach them that Jews are the devils. Think of that.

Okay, it is kinda long and still unfinished, but..... have a nice read.
I agree with the vast majority of what you say. However you can't say the Israeli's built the Israeli state out of nothing, they most built it and took it from the people who had lived there before them (whether before the Zionist movement, or before Moses and his people). I would never say Palestine has right to all the land (simply because the Israeli's aren't going anywhere, and I wouldn't say that they could go to Europe or America, because, it seems to be a historical trend among them to integrate as poorly as possible.) However, the Palestinians have a right to more land and resources, and their own state without the direct inteference of Israel.

But I do agree with what you said on the other parts, I personally don't believe it right to call Palestinians terrorists until you denounce the Israeli's (if someone does that, then I will equally express my dissatisfaction with the PA et al.)
Razorz, neat.

Not Ozymandias
03-10-2006, 05:24 PM
Bump

I don't feel we fully explored this issue.

jacknife737
03-10-2006, 06:50 PM
"If Hamas was to disarm, there would be an end to the violence, if Israel was to disarm, there would be no more Israel"

Someone wrote this in a letter to the Globe and Mail a couple of days ago. I think they made a valid point.

wheelchairman
03-10-2006, 10:33 PM
That's ridiculous. It takes two to make a conflict (just like tango.) And it's profitable for both sides.

Sin Studly
03-11-2006, 03:06 AM
I love this thread so much I'm stealing it and using it on another forum.