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View Full Version : Would you advocate the use of torture?



IamSam
06-27-2009, 02:14 AM
I was asked this tonight by two highly conservative individuals. (By conservative I mean right wing in economics, politics, and social issues.) They began by asking me if I thought waterboarding was a form of torture and I said yes. They then started going off like bottle rockets about how I was just another person fed by the media and that I didn't support torture without even asking me what I thought about it.

What are your thoughts about the use of torture?

Harleyquiiinn
06-27-2009, 02:30 AM
That's interesting IAmSam... That is typically the kind of question where noone can be right because the 2 groups have real and reasonable justifications.

It is reasonable to consider that the use of torture is necessary because sometime, torture one man can save a hundred lives.

It is reasonable to condemn it is not right for a human being, or a country's police, to hurt another human-being. Not in a democracy that considers that every human is equal.

For me, I wouldn't advocate torture in anyway because of that last reason. When your country tortures someone, maybe they saved some lives but in a long term prospective, I think this is way more dangerous to be in a country that has limits into caring about human rights than in a country threaten by terrorism.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that nothing should be done I just think that there are a hundred and more efficient ways to fight against it than torture...

The Talking Pie
06-27-2009, 03:51 AM
Torture is never for extracting information; it just won't harvest valid results -- torture is for punishment or revenge after the subject is known to be guilty of something.

wheelchairman
06-27-2009, 08:25 AM
Your conservative friends are morons then. The most effective method of getting information has always been to convert the detainee, make him sympathetic to your goals. It always works better than torture.

Anyways you should've asked your friends right then and there if they would like to try and be waterboarded.

Oxygene
06-27-2009, 08:59 AM
YES YES YES, but only if used on conservatives.

Oxygene
06-27-2009, 09:01 AM
Anyways you should've asked your friends right then and there if they would like to try and be waterboarded.

I think it's a fair suggestion.. they should try it.. if they don't think it's torture after that, then I'd call that a well established opinion.

sKratch
06-27-2009, 09:05 AM
There are lots of things that aren't torture but that doesn't mean I'd like to experience them...

In any case, I absolutely oppose torture in any situation especially under the guise of information gathering. In a recent series of surveys, just under 50% of the US population supported torture.

IamSam
06-28-2009, 05:54 PM
I'll be frank. I'm think there are better ways of getting information out of someone. However, if someone ever did something to a person I loved I would have a hard time not torturing them and killing them slowly.

Hypno Toad
06-28-2009, 08:09 PM
I just said No, because the other answers didn't feel right.

I think purely psychological torture is not really OK, but could be used in circumstances that absolutely require it. I'm strictly opposed to physical torture.


By psychological torture, I mean scaring, demoralizing, and depressing people until they tell you what you need; but by more moderate means.

SweetTatyana
06-28-2009, 09:53 PM
I would say no not only due to humane reasons but I don't really see a use for it. Torturing someone for information, as stated above, would not necessarily yield accurate results. Many people would succumb and provide information just to have the torture stop.

JohnnyNemesis
06-28-2009, 10:03 PM
Torture just plain doesn't work, and there's like a bajillion examples of proof of this.

brothadave79
06-28-2009, 10:34 PM
I would say no not only due to humane reasons but I don't really see a use for it. Torturing someone for information, as stated above, would not necessarily yield accurate results. Many people would succumb and provide information just to have the torture stop.

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djZFHTa6TfA) is what happens when they lie.

In all seriousness, however, torture is simply too counterproductive for the United States to employ - in terms of international prestige and its potential to turn malcontents into martyrs. It is both a glaring hypocrisy and a public relations nightmare before our friends and enemies alike. And how petty the debate can become, when the 'proper' definition of torture itself is opened for debate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W5O4Ss7zpI)

I don't particularly like Olbermann, but this he's right here. And to paraphrase one commenter, "If you need to deny it's torture, it probably is."

Whether I approach it from deontology or cost-benefit, the result is the same: torture is wrong for the United States. It is morally reprehensible. It inflames foreign sentiments. And it undermines national values.

Not that we need to make prisoners cozy (http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2009/06/01/guantanamo_captives_get_satellite_tv_sudoku_puzzle s/) either. On the public dollar, no less.

Hypno Toad
06-28-2009, 10:54 PM
It's not entirely true that torture doesn't work, it an in context situation.

If I can make a little scenario here..


American troops capture an insurgent possibly responsible for rigging an IED that blew up 30+ innocent civilians, they want him to admit he was responsible in the act. They have some proof, but not enough; and they wish to gain information on who organized the crime if he was responsible for making the bomb.

A bad way to deal with it:

CIA goons beat up, mame, and water board the person. He blurts out that he did it, and tells them a name. The answer was given in extreme distress, so nobody can be entirely sure that he did it, as he may have just been saying what they wanted them to say so they would stop the torture.


A more ideal way of dealing with it:

Immediately take the man to the sight of the bombing, and make him move the bodies off the street, as well as clean up the blood. After he is done, take him to meet a portion (or all, if necessary) family members of the bomb victims. His reactions will primarily be emotional, so you will easily be able to tell whether he did it or not, and if he feels horrible about it, he may tell you what you want to know.



The problem is that even though the second one could prove very effective, the military/government (even though claiming to be in favor of democracy) would rather beat the shit out of somebody until they blurt out an answer. In the end, there will always be torture. It is best to just punish it when it happens, because there is really no way of stopping it from happening.

jaxter9000
06-29-2009, 11:14 AM
I don't support torture.

First of all, what if you're torturing someone who is innocent? What if they were framed or something?

Second, like others have said, there are so many other ways to deal with things.

Finally, it just gets foreign nations more angry at the U.S. for its inhumane treatment of humans, which could lead to violent backlashes.

I can only imagine what those photos from Guantanamo Bay that Obama is hiding show.

In all truthfulness, it scares me a lot to think that people actually could justify half drowning someone. Maybe it's because drowning is one of my biggest fears.

Smash_Returns
06-29-2009, 11:29 AM
Does watching this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG2osy3PC6Y&feature=player_embedded) count as torture?

brothadave79
06-29-2009, 12:04 PM
Does watching this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG2osy3PC6Y&feature=player_embedded) count as torture?


No, I loved it! It had everything needed for an epic tale: seppuku, self-surgery, intestinal strangulation, birds eating eyes, even a crucifixion!

jaxter9000
06-29-2009, 01:07 PM
Does watching this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG2osy3PC6Y&feature=player_embedded) count as torture?

Wow, that was... interesting.........:p:p

Hypno Toad
06-29-2009, 01:37 PM
Does watching this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG2osy3PC6Y&feature=player_embedded) count as torture?

wat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccF50ssJKVA)

Nothing makes you go "what the hell" like a legless man kicking that crap out out of a bunch of people.

jacknife737
06-29-2009, 03:20 PM
So, I seem to be joining an overwhelming consensus here; democracies should not engage in torture; it is ineffective, and in direct contradiction to our values.

In extreme cases, psychological methods such as sleep or sensory deprivation is up to debate on a case by case basis, but even then i'd lean towards the 'no' side.

T-6005
06-29-2009, 03:59 PM
That's right, yes. No.

Static_Martyr
06-29-2009, 07:39 PM
Well, what I always say is, "It takes a fucked up dude to torture another dude."

Torture is fucked up, dude 0.0

NGNM85
06-30-2009, 08:56 PM
Absolutely not. As Hans Christian Stroebele, Green Party member of the German parliament, put it: "If you open the window [of torture], even just a crack, the cold air of the middle ages will fill the whole room." It's like burning books, it's the gateway to fascism, anti-democratic and fundamentally anti-human.

wheelchairman
07-01-2009, 07:49 AM
Also like how weed is the gateway to crack and amphetamines or how alcohol is the gateway to a good time.

Al Coholic
07-01-2009, 01:53 PM
But the alcohol thing is true.

AllIn All It's Not So Bad
07-16-2009, 11:43 AM
this is the usual toilet paper they have in torture rooms
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/3/30/%27_toilet_paper.jpg

ad8
07-16-2009, 12:52 PM
What a political reply:rolleyes:

Free?
07-16-2009, 02:05 PM
Alex approves this thread.
http://cache.io9.com/assets/resources/2007/12/clockwork-large.jpg

Alison
07-16-2009, 06:27 PM
Ok, well I would say "no" without reluctance....BUT....when I think about it some more...if I were put in a situation where I could torture someone, because of something terrible they had done to me/family/friends, like IamSam said, it'd be pretty damn hard not to give them a few kicks or something.

That_Guy91
07-16-2009, 08:33 PM
Ok, well I would say "no" without reluctance....BUT....when I think about it some more...if I were put in a situation where I could torture someone, because of something terrible they had done to me/family/friends, like IamSam said, it'd be pretty damn hard not to give them a few kicks or something.

That's part of the argument against torture, though. We should be looking for justice, not vengeance.

[[Meli.x]]
07-27-2009, 05:22 PM
YES YES YES, but only if used on conservatives.

Im a conservative XD.
I dont agree with torture though... at least, not on the most part...
But then again, its circumstantial with me... I believe those who have tortured, should be subject to what they have done. But i do not agree with it generally. My idea of torture is quite personal though.. and by that i mean one persons idea of torture may not be someone elses... one mans pain is another mans pleasure. I personally would rather be punched in the face than have anyone touch my feet, so that would be something that would bother me more than it would bother others (this is just an example, im not comparing feet touching with torture, but it was the first thing that sprung to mind).

dexter12296566
07-28-2009, 10:47 AM
torturing and making living creatures suffer no matter what the circumstance is wrong

zsk
07-28-2009, 11:40 AM
to safe other life or torture for military right,yes
in civil right or so,not

Jules69
07-28-2009, 03:48 PM
I voted no also!!! The only way this is ok is if it is not to an extreme in consent in the very fetish b and d s an m world!!!!!!;)

SMASHedTHEignition
08-01-2009, 09:49 PM
I voted no also!!! The only way this is ok is if it is not to an extreme in consent in the very fetish b and d s an m world!!!!!!;)

haha yeah a sexual fetish i spose its okay then :p

JoY
08-02-2009, 05:06 PM
Torture is never for extracting information; it just won't harvest valid results -- torture is for punishment or revenge after the subject is known to be guilty of something.

I totally agree.

JoY
08-02-2009, 05:16 PM
Ok, well I would say "no" without reluctance....BUT....when I think about it some more...if I were put in a situation where I could torture someone, because of something terrible they had done to me/family/friends, like IamSam said, it'd be pretty damn hard not to give them a few kicks or something.

a few kicks is barely torture in comparison to what *certain* others would do.

there's one person I know, one person only, who in my eyes deserves some kind of punishment. not the kind police forces would give him/her, not the kind I would give him/her, but the kind that's purely & only aimed for justice; that of the general crowd. I guess the community has punished him/her in a way, except it's just too bad it doesn't resolve any damage he/she has done & in the end the damage done to a person can also lead to a reaction of the community that leads to even more damage. so I guess there is no justice.

hauknife737
08-02-2009, 06:53 PM
Tell me about that person hun. You can't torture me like that!

JoY
08-04-2009, 10:32 AM
I don't think so.

nieh
08-04-2009, 11:39 AM
a few kicks is barely torture in comparison to what *certain* others would do.

there's one person I know, one person only, who in my eyes deserves some kind of punishment. not the kind police forces would give him/her, not the kind I would give him/her, but the kind that's purely & only aimed for justice; that of the general crowd. I guess the community has punished him/her in a way, except it's just too bad it doesn't resolve any damage he/she has done & in the end the damage done to a person can also lead to a reaction of the community that leads to even more damage. so I guess there is no justice.

I said I was sorry about that!