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T-6005
12-07-2009, 10:36 PM
In some ways, I am a shameless pirate. While I unfortunately don't sail the high seas in an Indonesian off-coast high-keeled motorboat, Uzi in hand, I do download music, TV shows, games, movies and the occasional program I feel like testing out (though to be honest I generally end up buying the last three).

In case you didn't catch on, that makes me a pirate in the rather more recent, less vs. ninja sense.

The truth is I don't have a fully fleshed-out argument for doing so. I'm not a huge proponent of open-source software – I don't run Linux, play free games over ones that cost money, bother to head to the record store for CDs or even think about putting a dent in my student-sized wallet just so I can watch Iron Man. Hell, I went to see it twice in theaters for pretty much no reason. That's practically the price of the DVD right there. I do run OpenOffice and my old computer was dual-booted with Ubuntu and Windows before it crashed and practically melted. I haven't bothered to extend the same treatment to this new laptop.

But you know what? In purposely breaking the law – there isn't a huge filesharing witch-hunt in Canada... yet – I'm reacting to the very market forces these dominant companies are forcing on me. Hell, in finding new ways to acquire the new products for cheaper – in this case, for free – I'm just acting in my best interests as a rational maximizer. I seek to maximize my utility while minimizing my use of personal resources. Is that so wrong?

Well, according to these companies, yes! It sounds like it should be confusing, kids, but it really isn't. The reason your ideology can't succeed is because you can't disconnect it from real-world interests. Political and ideological language is inherently couched in a situation of interests, causes and conditions that you can't begin to imagine. You're surprised that companies that embrace a neoliberal ideology are angry when you play by the rules of the free market? Well, be surprised no more – there's a reason multinationals pay workers less than a living wage to print shirts you pay $40 for. If your reason has six letters and ends in the British term for what Thibault is (note: fit) you're on my wavelength.

The truth is as much as we all wish it were so, you internet apologists for piracy and the rest of you who embrace open-source software are ideologists. You can't engage real-world mechanisms with nothing but the strength of your ideals. No matter what French people tell you, the Bastille didn't fall for liberty – nor did it truly have an impact on the next few decades (The Terror, anyone? Louis-Philippe I? Friggin' Napoleon?). It fell because people were pissed.

I guess it falls to me to tell you internet idealists the truth. You can't live aside from the real world. The real world will find you. Then it'll fuck you.

Until then, does anyone know where I can find a decent DVD-quality torrent of District 9? The sound on mine is all weird...

PS - No, I won't shorten my thread. It's how I write.

jacknife737
12-07-2009, 10:49 PM
I haven't downloaded this, a quick search came up with this; the comments seem to imply that it's legit
http://btjunkie.org/torrent/District-9-2009-DVDRip-XviD-MAX/3755a0d6daa035f29b1757055e0ba13a6b5f7b1f4087

If you haven't used it yet, Torrent Pond may help your search.
http://www.torrentpond.com/torrent_search.aspx

Sidewinder
12-07-2009, 11:14 PM
I don't understand the prosecution of downloaders so much as I do the uploaders. Sure the downloader gets a product for free that shouldn't be free, but it's almost like picking a 20 dollar bill up off the street. You know it can't be yours and you're taking it from someone who might even be right around the corner looking for it, but you weren't the one who laid it out there to begin with.

Harleyquiiinn
12-08-2009, 01:01 AM
T-6005> So say we all http://www.assas.net/forum/style_emoticons/default/jap.gif Yes I downloaded all Battlestar Galactica recently.

Sidewinder> The thing is, on torrent or P2P, you are automatically an uploader when you download.
As for downloading "only", here in France at least, it is considered as Copyright infringement as well because you use something you know is illegal. The Criminal code considers this as the same offence. Of course, most of the laws were made long before Internet (1957 to be exact) and were concerning all these fake watches and clothes.

Sidewinder
12-08-2009, 02:44 AM
I said downloading, not file sharing. Torrents or other non p2p clients either have very easy methods to avoid being a seeder or don't have that aspect at all.

DMelges
12-08-2009, 03:31 AM
All I know is that, here where I am living, prices are so high that the only way to entertain thy self is by downloading. CDs cost around 50 reias, movies cost around 70 reais, PS3 games cost between 200 and 300 reais.

God bless torrents.

Jojan
12-08-2009, 03:42 AM
God bless torrents.

NO! Thank Bram Cohen who created the BitTorrent protocol.

Irish-Rover
12-08-2009, 03:43 AM
i just download music i would love to get ePSXe but i have no idea how to run it i get all the bios and plugins but still cant use it

disclaimer_07
12-08-2009, 03:58 AM
Downloading without Demonoid.com is not the same anymore... :(
Anyone know of a site that is even remotely as good?

wheelchairman
12-08-2009, 09:28 AM
You know why you download music? Because you don't even need to stand up to do it. Downloading music requires less effort than going to the bathroom.

The Talking Pie
12-08-2009, 10:19 AM
This is why I can't read Slashdot comments anymore. You can't see the general commentary for all of the excuses about how pirating paid software is fine and dandy.

It's ironic; FOSS isn't paying anyone's wage. If anything, it should be FOSS that's fine to pirate (and I realise that, to a degree, it is, in the way that the GPL works and torrent downloads are promoted, etc.). But the real issue is that people don't approach FOSS with the malicious intent that they do with proprietary software that is actually keeping a roof over the developers' heads.

It's just the case of children being told that they can't have something, and so using any means necessary to obtain it. And then bash it on /. because it's not free. Or complain that they wouldn't go out and buy the album anyway because the music actually sucks (so no one's losing money, apparently!), even though they went to all the trouble of pirating it and still have it sitting on their iPod (which runs Rockbox, naturally...).

holland25
12-08-2009, 10:28 AM
Well, I don't see anything wrong in downloading. It's just promoting the stuff, and if someone really loves the band, they buy the CD anyway. Or, if someone enjoys the music he/she downloaded, he might as well buy the CD. It's a good way to find out new bands you've never heard before. I know I know, you can buy the music off iTunes or stuff like that, but some people still don't have PayPal or any means to buy music online. It's actually my case. I've got tthe exact number of 600 discographies on my hard drive, and 80% of them are downloaded. I can't afford spending much money on music, but if I really love the album / band, I go and buy their CD. As for the movies, it's cool to download TVrips of things you cannot normally buy on DVD. And as for the games, I've never downloaded any game, but I don't have anything against that. Apps / programs? Well, there are some cool freeware apps that do the same as those you pay for. But anyway, I've paid for Office and NOD...

The Talking Pie
12-08-2009, 10:51 AM
So basically, if they're not your favourite band, it's cool to steal their music? What if your boss decided only to pay you for your very best work?

wheelchairman
12-08-2009, 11:11 AM
I'm generally like Pie here, in my older age I don't really download so much anymore.

I don't know what it is, or why, but for some reason I like to own things. Ridiculously consumerist, especially for something like Star Trek dvds.

Anyways I find most dvds and cds are rather nicely priced. Whether this has to do with pirating or not, I don't know. but I believe there is probably a correlation.

Especially with stuff that isn't new. It's really no skin off my back to pay for cheap dvds and movies instead of pirating them. I suppose there is also an ease factor, I don't need to download, then to format it and burn it to a DVD. (I prefer to watch movies on my tv.) Sure I could buy a cable from my laptop to plug into my tv, but then I would miss out on using my cheap-ass surround sound. And yes I'm sure there is a cable to use that too, but you also have to understand that I'm technologically handicapped and completely apathetic.

Especially when I watch the majority of films I see in a non-sober state.

Llamas
12-08-2009, 11:23 AM
Okay, here's my two cents; to what means and what extents do I download music? Get ready to tl;dr this shit...

I have one of the largest CD collections you will probably ever see, and every single one of those hundreds of CDs I purchased with my hard-earned money. I write music myself, I used to perform all the time, and music is probably my biggest interest/hobby. I am not some lazy freeloading asshole who just thinks meh, why not?

I do download music illegally, though. I hear about an album that sounds interesting (it can be a band I love or a band I've never heard of), and I download it. If I like it enough that it has replay value, I will go buy it and it will join my large collection. If I hate it, I can delete it and no money was lost. If I think it's okay, but I probably won't listen to it again, I might keep it around for a while.

Some people say that there's no need to download for this "previewing" - you can just listen on myspace or on youtube or something. That doesn't work for me. I need to be able to listen to it away from my laptop in order to get a real feeling on it. While in transit is the time I get best acquainted with music.

Right now, I can't afford to buy CDs, though. They cost way more here than they do in the US (twice as much), PLUS most musicians I like don't have albums for sale in Europe (I like a lot of American indie bands, or older bands that just never got famous here). So then my option is importing or iTunes.

My problem with iTunes is that buying a .mp3 file is ridiculous to me. I can not justify spending so much money on some intangible data; especially one that's being tracked and isn't ever truly "yours". My problem with importing is that I can't afford it.

So now we get to the argument: it's life - not everyone can afford everything they want; it's not okay to "steal" something just because you can't afford it. Okay, yes, but if I don't download music, I'll just keep listening to the same OLD stuff I have forever, and I'll never buy new albums, I'll never go see concerts, and then all these musicians I love are getting NO money from me. And personally, I think concerts are worth more than albums. I'd rather spend my money on a live show than a CD (in addition to my massive CD collection, I've been to many a show). People getting up on stage and sweating their asses off, performing for days/weeks/months... it's worth so much more to me than sitting in a studio and re-recording tracks over and over with producers and directors who basically tell you what to do.

Okay I'm not sure this has a structure anymore. Good enough.

holland25
12-08-2009, 11:47 AM
So basically, if they're not your favourite band, it's cool to steal their music? What if your boss decided only to pay you for your very best work?

Nah, that's not how I meant it. I don't consider it stealing their music. It's just that when I download it and don't like it, I don't delete it, cause someone may love it and then he buys their music. And it goes round and round. All the bands are aware of of P2P networks and basically most of them don't give a shit or agree with it, cause it helps them promote their music.

Llamas
12-08-2009, 12:41 PM
I forgot to mention (in my 60,000 word novel) that these musicians are rich and aren't exactly scrounging for change by the time their albums are plastered all over torrents. Artists that are struggling to get by aren't popular enough to be on torrent sites (generally). Plus musicians don't make much of their money from album sales... I haven't seen a single popular musician going broke because they only went gold instead of double platinum...

DMelges
12-08-2009, 12:47 PM
I forgot to mention (in my 60,000 word novel) that these musicians are rich and aren't exactly scrounging for change by the time their albums are plastered all over torrents. Artists that are struggling to get by aren't popular enough to be on torrent sites (generally). Plus musicians don't make much of their money from album sales... I haven't seen a single popular musician going broke because they only went gold instead of double platinum...

You have a point. Artists make more money with shows then they do with album sales. Not to mention that if someone likes the band enough to download an entire album, they will probably go to the show.
I download albums, but when I truely like the band, I buy the album. The Offspring for example, is my favorite band. And I downloaded all thei albums, but I bought all the cds as well. Same thing goes for other bands I like. I support the bands that I believe deserve it.

dexter12296566
12-08-2009, 12:52 PM
Why do you post so long?!

Thomas
12-08-2009, 01:13 PM
Why do you post so long?!

Because they have something worthwhile to say and choose to not just post mindless dribble all over the BBS.


I'm pretty much in the same boat as llamas. I can't imagine myself ever buying an album off itunes or anything, and I rarely illegally download anything. I don't think I've done that in years now... I love having a physical cd that I can pop in my cheapy $15 boom box and jame to. I, too, don't have a lot of money and can't buy many cds, but whenever I do, it's always a pretty special occasion and it allows me to really soak in the album and let it grow on me. When I used to download an album every once in a while, I got too much music at once and never really appreciated any of it. By only being able to afford one album every once in a long while, I find that I enjoy the new music that i do get a lot more.

That, and I'm a douche bag elitist who likes to make myself feel better by looking down on everyone who illegally downloads their music.

jacknife737
12-08-2009, 01:14 PM
I'm a huge hypocrite on the topic of downloading.

I try and purchase the majority of my music; on my mp3 player, about 80-90% of it is music ripped from cds that i've bought. I don't mind supporting bands AND labels, especially if its ones like Fat Wreck or Asian Man, ect, who treat their artists well. Still, I don't care about majors (dinosaurs will die).

And at the same time; there is music on my mp3 player that i haven't paid for (ie, Mike awesomely uploaded some Andrew Jackson Jihad,and it's what i've been mostly listening to this week).

I usually treat downloading as a tool to sample new bands or find rare/out of print/ live stuff.

As for tv shows; i download that stuff all the time, same goes for movies. Although, if i really like a show/movie i'll usually go buy the dvd because i'm totes a consumerist by nature.

Llamas
12-08-2009, 01:15 PM
By only being able to afford one album every once in a long while, I find that I enjoy the new music that i do get a lot more.
This is a huge reason I still buy albums. I can't really explain why, but I appreciate and grow to love an album more if it's a physical copy.


That, and I'm a douche bag elitist who likes to make myself feel better by looking down on everyone who illegally downloads their music.
I'm totally a douchebag elitist about owning CDs, but I do still download :cool:

Thomas
12-08-2009, 01:18 PM
I'm totally a douchebag elitist about owning CDs, but I do still download :cool:

tru punx...

PedroACastro
12-08-2009, 01:23 PM
i download most of my music, i buy some albums that i really like but the real problem for me is finding the albums of some bands i really like. i like some bands that i never seen an album in stores and it makes it really dificult to get to know their sound without downloading it first. as for movies programs and games, i just download the first. programs i use freeware and games i usually buy them since i don't play that many

DMelges
12-08-2009, 01:29 PM
i download most of my music, i buy some albums that i really like but the real problem for me is finding the albums of some bands i really like.

Yeah, I still haven't found the Chickenfoot album around here. So what am I suppossed to do? Not listen to it and wait until I find it ? I buy the albums that deserve to be bought. It's simple enough. Hell, Youtube has a billion 'videos' that are only songs. Should Youtube be prosecuted for that ? No way.

Free?
12-08-2009, 02:18 PM
Youtube is one big mess when it comes to copyrighted material.
I'd also would like to point out that T's first post is still a peak of discussion, followed by Pie and WCM. Everything else is almost the same as opinions on abortions.

The Talking Pie
12-08-2009, 02:23 PM
I forgot to mention (in my 60,000 word novel) that these musicians are rich and aren't exactly scrounging for change by the time their albums are plastered all over torrents. Artists that are struggling to get by aren't popular enough to be on torrent sites (generally). Plus musicians don't make much of their money from album sales... I haven't seen a single popular musician going broke because they only went gold instead of double platinum...

You're completely missing the point. The money doesn't go straight to the artist. The record company takes a huge chunk. "But those guys are evil!", right? Maybe, but what about the producer who works hard getting the album to sound good enough that you want to pirate it? What about the office junior who fetches coffee and runs around the record label office like a headless chicken? What about everyone and everything connected to the label that needs to be paid for the work they've done to get that music out there? The studio, the equipment, maybe the instruments, the factories that press the CDs, the artist who designs the album art, etc. How do they get paid if people decide that they don't need to buy the album because the band will get enough money from concert tickets? It's never been about the band. The record companies have gone so bat-shit crazy over this whole issue because it's literally their livelihoods that are on the line.

Llamas
12-08-2009, 02:47 PM
You're completely missing the point. The money doesn't go straight to the artist. The record company takes a huge chunk. "But those guys are evil!", right? Maybe, but what about the producer who works hard getting the album to sound good enough that you want to pirate it? What about the office junior who fetches coffee and runs around the record label office like a headless chicken? What about everyone and everything connected to the label that needs to be paid for the work they've done to get that music out there? The studio, the equipment, maybe the instruments, the factories that press the CDs, the artist who designs the album art, etc. How do they get paid if people decide that they don't need to buy the album because the band will get enough money from concert tickets? It's never been about the band. The record companies have gone so bat-shit crazy over this whole issue because it's literally their livelihoods that are on the line.

Thing is, I don't care about the stuff these huge labels do. Most of the time, I'm happier listening to a live recording that requires like 1/20 of the hassle/people (hence live albums often being cheaper, as well). I don't think all these people you mention are so important that I feel bad for not paying them. If a talented band gets a few people to record a live show, I'm just as happy listening to that. I buy albums so I can listen to the music when I can't be at a concert; I don't buy them so I can hear the fancy production and results of expensive recording equipment.
Case in point: there's a singer/songwriter I really like, so I first bought her self-pressed CD to support her (she's a freelance traveling musician - no label, no nothing). Her friend (who's a producer) helped with all the official stuff, so it's a pretty professional sounding recording. I barely listen to it. Some time later (I've met her personally on a few accounts), I begged her to burn a dozen or so live tracks, recorded by one of her friends, to a blank CD and I paid her $5 for that. I listen to that shit all the time.

And yet, I still buy CDs, and way more than I should. The thousands of dollars I've spent on those things... what could I have bought with all that? haha

The Talking Pie
12-08-2009, 03:01 PM
It really doesn't work quite how you imagine it to, though.

Just because you don't care about all of the record label stuff, doesn't mean that it isn't incredibly important (okay, your comments about the indie artist are fine, but record labels exist for the very reason of getting those unknowns out there and into your ears, so it's only valid for people you happen to have seen in your local area).

If the record company can't pay all of the small people then nothing gets done. It's not magic. It's just logic. Can't pay the recording studio? No album. Can't pay the artist? Boring-looking CD. Record label goes under. Now only those people in the artist's local area are lucky enough to see them. Some artists will give up (hey, some of them want to sign to a label and make lots of money).

Granted, that's rather an apocalyptic take on the situation, but the fundamentals are sound.

If you don't have the label and all the hassle to begin with, you don't get the vast majority of the music to listen to live. And funnily enough, all of those people who work 9 - 5 in the record label want to be paid just like everyone else in this rotten world.

Harleyquiiinn
12-08-2009, 03:16 PM
So basically, if they're not your favourite band, it's cool to steal their music? What if your boss decided only to pay you for your very best work?

Of course not. Bands need to be paid, as well as the people working around them. But I understood T's post as the rational explanation on why you can't stop illegal downloading just by saying it's wrong. It is incredibly logical that most people will download something for free instead of paying it when it is so easy and when you have no chance to be really prosecuted for it.

I don't blame record companies and all for the price of the CDs, I don't download because of them and I actually think they did a lot of efforts to decrease the price of a CD (here at least). What I do blame them for is that they don't seem to realize what T-6005 is very simply saying. Downloading won't stop. So it is no use to prosecute people individually, to fight for things to be "normal" again because it simply won't happen.

Now, that would a great time to say what I think should be done but I have no idea. I guess that sooner or later, a new economical model will come out, maybe with more concerts (and that is already happening actually), maybe with more video games (people are BUYING songs on video games...), maybe with a global tax to compensate the downloading, like what happened with the tapes....

T-6005
12-08-2009, 03:25 PM
Of course not. Bands need to be paid, as well as the people working around them. But I understood T's post as the rational explanation on why you can't stop illegal downloading just by saying it's wrong. It is incredibly logical that most people will download something for free instead of paying it when it is so easy and when you have no chance to be really prosecuted for it.

I don't blame record companies and all for the price of the CDs, I don't download because of them and I actually think they did a lot of efforts to decrease the price of a CD (here at least). What I do blame them for is that they don't seem to realize what T-6005 is very simply saying. Downloading won't stop. So it is no use to prosecute people individually, to fight for things to be "normal" again because it simply won't happen.

Now, that would a great time to say what I think should be done but I have no idea. I guess that sooner or later, a new economical model will come out, maybe with more concerts (and that is already happening actually), maybe with more video games (people are BUYING songs on video games...), maybe with a global tax to compensate the downloading, like what happened with the tapes....
That's almost an exact summary of half the argument I was making. As we've seen in this thread, the argument can be propagated ideologically to pretty much an infinite length, and that makes the entire argument not only tedious but pointless.

The truth is that on one side we have us - the consumers - who you've so nicely described as preferring to get things for free instead of paying. And that's exactly right.

But on the other side is TTP's argument that real people populate record labels and put work into albums, distribution, providing labor and materials and that those people need to be paid, not to mention that these companies both support artists and, like all companies, have a mandate to succeed and make a profit (thanks to no one for picking up on the six letter word ending in "fit" from the original post).

I enjoy the posts in this thread that have taken both into account, because that's the ground this argument needs to be fought on - you can't defend your downloading through a simple ideological claim, nor can you automatically dismiss it (either as evil or as unfair) since it will continue. It's why I said I don't have a fleshed-out argument. It's the truth.

Harleyquiiinn
02-19-2010, 05:40 AM
Interesting illustration

http://www.numerama.com/media/attach/maindifference.jpg