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View Full Version : Capitalism vs. Socialism... benefits ?



DMelges
12-10-2009, 01:44 PM
Here's something that has been on my mind lately that I would like to share.

Capitalism, in simple terms, gives power to individuals to grow by themselves. So, we can produce and take part in the economy (work) and use the profits for our own purposes. We work, therefor we earn. We earn, therefor it is our right to keep what we earn. Of course, I agree with this and I wouldn't have it differently. But this creates many problems, such as social classes. Poor people living off rich people's trash.
I have issues with money. I believe money is man's worst invention, because it divided all of us. How can a poor man, let's say a man that has been forced to live on the streets, find a decent job to be able to join the middle class? He is considered poor, therefor no one will hire him for a well paying job. We all tell the guy on the corner asking for change to 'get a job!'. But how can he?
I think it's ridiculous that, for example, food and water, wich is the most basic thing that all of us need for survival, has a price. If you don't have money ( a stupid green peace of paper), you can't eat and you can't drink. That is ridiculous.

Socialism, in simple terms, has the government control society. And by 'control', there aren't social classes. Everyone is equal. Nobody goes poor and gets looked down on. Everybody can go to college, because the government allows you to. So you don't have to worry about money. Sounds pretty good. But, the bad side of that is, you lose all your individual rights. You don't earn what you work for. You don't have the liberty that you do in Capitalism.

What I'm trying to say is... Why can't there be a mix between Capitalism and Socialism? Why can't we find a way to earn what we work for, but also keep everyone equal ? Why should man be divided by how many hours we works or how many degrees he has?

I know what you're thinking. This is just another one of those topics that don't really have a solution. It's either one way, or the other. And I agree. But it irritates me. Just think about it. Next time you have homeless people ask you for money, and you think to yourself, "this guy needs to get a job", think... could you get him a job ? Could that guy, who maybe was born into poberty, become a working class man? Would YOU hire him ?

It's always good to get something off your mind. I just released a lot. :rolleyes:

wheelchairman
12-10-2009, 01:51 PM
I don't think your definitions are very good, so that ends up making this debate typical.

Socialism in marxist terms is a post-capitalist society, you can't have a mix as by definition it can't change, the Chinese economic reforms have been stated by the ruling party as being temporary in order to induce further development of socialism.

And mixed-market economies are pretty much the only economies that exist.

dexter12296566
12-10-2009, 01:51 PM
I think it is dumb to say "Your poor so you can't have a job here." I mean really... they should say "Yeah you ass! I am poor because jerks like you won't hire me!" I think a lot more people than not have issues with money. Especially after the economy!

dexter12296566
12-10-2009, 01:54 PM
Double post!

I think social classes are wrong. People shouldn't be judged on how much money they have and whether they are poor or rich, if they are a citizen of their country and a productive member of society they should get the same rights as wealthy people. It isn't fair for people to work their asses off 16 hours a day and barely afford heat while some people sit around in an office and make a ton of money!

wheelchairman
12-10-2009, 02:03 PM
Does your mom know you're a socialist?

dexter12296566
12-10-2009, 02:04 PM
Does your mom know you're a socialist?

Are you talking to me? I don't think you were unless you were being sarcastic because I'm not a socialist!

wheelchairman
12-10-2009, 02:08 PM
Are you talking to me? I don't think you were unless you were being sarcastic because I'm not a socialist!

Yes I am talking to you, no I'm not being sarcastic, what you said was very socialist. That is not a bad thing. Well not necessarily.

dexter12296566
12-10-2009, 02:12 PM
SO does that mean I actually posted something intelligent? Cool!

DMelges
12-10-2009, 02:13 PM
...what you said was very socialist. That is not a bad thing. Well not necessarily.

That's what I think is ironic. We live in a capitalist world (most of us do), and we would never change our way of life. I myself want to keep the money I work for and have private property and etc etc. But I also hate the social classes. I hate the idea of rich and poor. A little rectangular piece of paper defines whether or not you have a plate of food on your table, or whether you even have a fucking table.

Being a socialist, as you said, isn't a bad thing. You believe in an equal society. No one is better than the other. Why can't we find a middle term ?

dexter12296566
12-10-2009, 02:21 PM
I don't really know what a socialist is but does that mean I made an inteligent post?!

m.offspring.r
12-10-2009, 02:25 PM
Capitalism is not a video game? :P

dexter12296566
12-10-2009, 02:27 PM
Capitalism is not a video game? :P

And I post unecessary things?!?!?!

Blackball_
12-10-2009, 03:33 PM
That's what I think is ironic. We live in a capitalist world (most of us do), and we would never change our way of life. I myself want to keep the money I work for and have private property and etc etc. But I also hate the social classes. I hate the idea of rich and poor. A little rectangular piece of paper defines whether or not you have a plate of food on your table, or whether you even have a fucking table.

i dont think we do.. maybe thats the uncontent capitalist in me speaking but i dont think you could hold up the definitions of capitalism against any economy on the planet and be able to say if capitalism has been good or bad for these peoples. i dont think its ever been tested in a country-wide scale in the same way that the various flavours of "socialism" has.

AllIn All It's Not So Bad
12-10-2009, 03:38 PM
Capitalism is a small percent of the population taking all the gold for themselves while they leave nothing for the rest of the population. that making us the lower and middle classes

Jebus
12-10-2009, 04:30 PM
You don't earn what you work for.
A Marxist would argue that a capitalist isn't fairly earning what's he's working for because he's living off the fruits of his exploited workers. If you believe in the labor theory of value, the price of a commodity (a good that's produced for the purpose of exchange, not for direct consumption) is only worth the quantity of labor that's put into it. And the only type of commodity a common person has has to offer is his labor power (his ability to work) seeing how only wealthy capitalists own the means production (factories, machinery, tools). The thing about labor power is that it can create more value than what itself is worth. A factory worker would only get paid a percentage of the value he's producing and the the rest of surplus value (profit) would be appropriated to the owners of the factory, which some would say is essentially stealing.


and have private property and etc etc
Socialism doesn't abolish property. It only abolishes private property of the bourgeoisie. Stuff like factories and mass amount of agricultural land own by few a few people would technically end up being owned by all.

wheelchairman
12-10-2009, 05:49 PM
i dont think we do.. maybe thats the uncontent capitalist in me speaking but i dont think you could hold up the definitions of capitalism against any economy on the planet and be able to say if capitalism has been good or bad for these peoples. i dont think its ever been tested in a country-wide scale in the same way that the various flavours of "socialism" has.

Capitalism is the current economic system 'employed' in the majority of nations. It's very few nations that don't have a capitalist economy.

So yes, you can very easily say that capitalism has been far kinder to the developed western world, than it has been to Latin America or Africa.

As far as socialism, obviously it can accomplish something. The USSR didn't go from a backwater agricultural mess to an efficient industrial super-power in a couple of decades by accident, that was the fastest development of a nation that has ever happened. It took Europeans 200 years to accomplish what the USSR did in 2 decades. Right after a revolution, a civil war, and the end of the first world war. I think this is underrecognized.

DMelges
12-10-2009, 06:05 PM
As far as socialism, obviously it can accomplish something. The USSR didn't go from a backwater agricultural mess to an efficient industrial super-power in a couple of decades by accident, that was the fastest development of a nation that has ever happened. It took Europeans 200 years to accomplish what the USSR did in 2 decades. Right after a revolution, a civil war, and the end of the first world war. I think this is underrecognized.

Yeah, that's true. Socialism does develop the country quickley. The only real downside of socialism is that it abolishes civil liberties. But it creates equality of opportunity, leaving equality of outcome behind.

wheelchairman
12-10-2009, 06:16 PM
People don't give a fuck about civil liberties unless their minimum requirement for being safe, secure, fed, housed, and socially active is met. You're not gonna give a fuck about your opportunity to write a dissenting newspaper article if your children are starving.

In that sense the fall of socialism could be tied to its success in raising the standard of living and its inability to cope with the new demands.

DMelges
12-10-2009, 06:29 PM
People don't give a fuck about civil liberties unless their minimum requirement for being safe, secure, fed, housed, and socially active is met. You're not gonna give a fuck about your opportunity to write a dissenting newspaper article if your children are starving..

I'm not sure I agree. Not entirely, at least.

Imagine finishing your day at work at a store in a shopping mall, and finally recieving your well deserved pay check. And then your boss comes, takes it away from you, and divides it between you and everyone single person in the mall, workers and non workers. That sucks. People want the right to work and keep what they earn for themselves. It's a dog eat dog world in capitalism. I did more then you, therefore I deserve more than you. Your loss. Most people think that way.

Jojan
12-11-2009, 06:02 AM
Socialism is waaay better! :-)