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bighead384
12-19-2009, 03:31 PM
What are your ideas regarding people making the argument that some policies are "going against what the Founding Fathers wanted"? To what extent should we consider the views of the Founding Father's when debating politics today?

I've heard this argument a lot ever since Obama has been elected. To put it simply, I don't really care that much about what the Founding Father's would think about today's debates over policy. Is there really something wrong with that? It's not that I don't respect their ideas, I just can't respect that approach to thinking about what's wrong or right, effective or ineffective. It's kind of an easy way out to me.

Alison
12-19-2009, 03:51 PM
I'm not really familiar with the Founding Fathers of the US, but gathering from what you've said and what I've heard, it sounds like what some poeple over here would say in reference to the people who died for Ireland's freedom.
To a certain extent it's ok...but things back then were different, and there has to be change at some point. As long as it's change for the better obviously.
When people say that, it seems like they are trying to grasp onto some part of the past, and look back on things through rose tinted glasses.

DMelges
12-19-2009, 05:12 PM
My guess is the Founding Fathers expected all the generations to be peaceful and just, exactly the way they wanted it to be.

dexter12296566
12-20-2009, 03:08 AM
Well I am learning about this kind of thing right now and if it goes against the constitution it won't be passed. The founding fathers do matter and will always be involved in the future of our country(Meant for the Americans!)!

Alison
12-20-2009, 03:45 AM
You can't just say "It doesnt fit in what people however many years ago said, so we can't do it"
We live in a different time, and can't be directed by what people said in the past. Yes, as guidelines maybe, but things should be able to be flexible.

wheelchairman
12-20-2009, 04:13 AM
People will bring up the founding fathers when they can. They did it all the time under Bush too. It doesn't matter what the founding fathers believed, both sides of the political spectrum will use their name to lend validity to their own opinions. This is especially true of Jefferson.

dexter12296566
12-20-2009, 05:11 AM
You can't just say "It doesnt fit in what people however many years ago said, so we can't do it"
We live in a different time, and can't be directed by what people said in the past. Yes, as guidelines maybe, but things should be able to be flexible.

Maybe it should be changed but if it is unconstitutional the judicial court won't allow it!!!

Jesus
12-20-2009, 05:18 AM
The same with some new policy being unconstitutional. Who cares, just because something is unconstitutional now, it doesn't mean it's automatically bad. You need actual arguments for that.
Otherwise it has way too much in common with Christianity, with the original constitution being the bible and the founding fathers as Gods.

dexter12296566
12-20-2009, 05:20 AM
Well just because I say that is the way it is doesn't mean I totally agree with it!

jacknife737
12-20-2009, 06:39 AM
This is one aspect of the American political culture that i've always found to be somewhat puzzling.

I mean every country has their own versions of them: Canada has the "Fathers of Confederation", but they almost never get brought up in public political discourses, unless its say relevant to the issue of national sovereignty (ie against Quebec separatists).

Context is everything: some people still believe that Washington's Farewell Address should be a blueprint for U.S. foreign policy, but that ignores the past couple hundred years of political/historical development and occurrences. Some things were written for a specific time and place, and should be treated as such.

bighead384
12-20-2009, 07:19 AM
Some things were written for a specific time and place, and should be treated as such.

I tend to agree, but how far should we take that mentality? You could use that argument to justify radical change, even re-writing the constitution.

Alison
12-20-2009, 07:45 AM
Well, I think the parts that don't exactly aply anymore should be changed...but leave the bits that work.
People look back on tradition and heritage too lovingly in some cases.

IamSam
12-20-2009, 07:51 PM
What are your ideas regarding people making the argument that some policies are "going against what the Founding Fathers wanted"? To what extent should we consider the views of the Founding Father's when debating politics today?


I ask this question: Would the founding fathers have wanted corporations dictating policy?

DMelges
12-20-2009, 09:12 PM
They understood that if you move too quickly, our democracy will be less responsible to the majority.

IamSam
12-20-2009, 09:29 PM
They understood that if you move too quickly, our democracy will be less responsible to the majority.

Come again?

Also, for those of you who didn't know, the senate was first set up to where state legislatures picked senators, NOT the American voting public. In the very beginning of the senate, the senate was supposed to be (at least the partial) voice of the minority while the House was supposed to be the voice of the majority.

DMelges
12-20-2009, 09:47 PM
Come again?
I meant to say that the Founding Fathers knew that if you rushed the governmant, rushed democracy, it would be less efficient and responsible.


Also, for those of you who didn't know, the senate was first set up to where state legislatures picked senators, NOT the American voting public. In the very beginning of the senate, the senate was supposed to be (at least the partial) voice of the minority while the House was supposed to be the voice of the majority.

I didn't know that...

wheelchairman
12-21-2009, 02:59 AM
Yes, but what do you mean by rushed government? Rushed in creating government? Or where you had a government where it didn't take a ridiculously long time to agree on and pass legislation?

DMelges
12-21-2009, 12:50 PM
Yes, but what do you mean by rushed government? Rushed in creating government? Or where you had a government where it didn't take a ridiculously long time to agree on and pass legislation?

Both, and also a government trying to solve everything all at once, and in consequence making things worse.

wheelchairman
12-21-2009, 12:59 PM
So which pundit told you about that?

DMelges
12-21-2009, 01:58 PM
It was Barber B. Conable, Jr. who said that "Congress is functioning the way the Founding Fathers intended-not very well. They understood that if you move too quickly, our democracy will be less responsible to the majority."

DMelges
12-21-2009, 02:05 PM
Americans can not be treated cruelly!

Nobody should be treated cruelly.

DMelges
12-21-2009, 02:34 PM
Exactly, but unfortunately, other countries didn't have founding fathers to stop it! Just like that infidel guy that got stoned to death... that is terrible! I wish I hadn't of clicked on the button saying "This picture if graphic. If you still want to see it, click here"!:(

That picture isn't that bad. There are worse, trust me.

dexter12296566
12-21-2009, 02:49 PM
That picture isn't that bad. There are worse, trust me.

There may be worse but that was still bad!

IamSam
12-21-2009, 03:03 PM
Exactly, but unfortunately, other countries didn't have founding fathers to stop it! Just like that infidel guy that got stoned to death... that is terrible! I wish I hadn't of clicked on the button saying "This picture if graphic. If you still want to see it, click here"!:(

Every country has founding fathers you kneecap.

Thomas
12-21-2009, 03:12 PM
you kneecap.

I lol'd .

WebDudette
12-21-2009, 03:43 PM
Thanks to the founding fathers, Americans can not be treated cruelly!

You mean like denying a loving couple their right to marriage?

Times change, the Constitution and ideals of the Founding Fathers will not always be relevant, that's why we have the amendments. The mere fact that we have 27 amendments should tell people that the Constitution and Founding Fathers are not always right.

Bit off topic, I especially hate when the Founding Fathers are brought up as support in religious arguments.

IamSam
12-21-2009, 03:55 PM
Bit off topic, I especially hate when the Founding Fathers are brought up as support in religious arguments.

But they founded us on Christian beliefs you damn dirty ATHEIST!

wheelchairman
12-21-2009, 04:13 PM
Yeah that really grinds my gears.

The founding fathers were rather smart in knowing that a constitution shouldn't be an unchangeable force, as mentiond that's why we have amendments. In fact the term 'amendment' means change.

Besides I find nothing valuable in having an inefficient government, and that is what the American government is. Saying that it rushes through legislation is a ridiculous joke. I don't know who gave you that idea, but you should think a second before believing it.

And as far as the American government being created in a rush. What.. the.. fuck... It took almost 100 years to bring it to something that we would recognize today... And I'm being generous when I say that.

DMelges
12-21-2009, 04:14 PM
But they founded us on Christian beliefs you damn dirty ATHEIST!

ROFLMAO alot :D

bighead384
12-22-2009, 01:26 PM
Ever heard of the Constitution Party?

http://www.constitutionparty.com/

Al Coholic
12-22-2009, 04:32 PM
If I remember correctly there was a big split in the constitution party over abortion, and I stopped paying attention to them when they decided that their platform would include that abortion was unconstitutional. Seemed ridiculous.

Although I could be completely wrong about that.

bighead384
12-22-2009, 09:57 PM
The idea of "going by the constituion" is definatley a conservative talking point, I rarely hear liberals bring that up besides maybe a few specific issues. But the way I see it, they designed it so we could adapt to new changes and whatnot. I mean, didn't Thomas Jefferson want the country to be based entirely off of agricultural? And then he went on to regret his beliefs later in his lif e because things changed. I think his views would have changed again for the industrial revolution if he were around for that. But yet, people want to act like everything he's ever said is the ultimate truth when changed he mind about things too.

nieh
12-22-2009, 10:12 PM
But they founded us on Christian beliefs you damn dirty ATHEIST!

I know your being facetious with that statement, but I feel the need to point out that Thomas Jefferson was actually a deist.

IamSam
12-23-2009, 07:12 AM
I know your being facetious with that statement, but I feel the need to point out that Thomas Jefferson was actually a deist.

Shhhhhh! That's one of our best kept secrets! Don't go educating everyone! They won't appreciate it!

Thomas
12-23-2009, 05:37 PM
I know your being facetious with that statement, but I feel the need to point out that Thomas Jefferson was actually a deist.

Thomas Jefferson was black?

I had no idea...