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SweetTatyana
01-22-2010, 11:00 AM
I was reading about a study performed on sexual offenders who had been castrated as a means to reduce their sentance in Norway. Out of the 103 offenders, there were only 3 re-offenders. The paper reported much lower than control amounts (although this number is not given).
Studies on guinea pigs and other rodents show that a few weeks after castration, sexual behaviour drops to negligible levels. Similar studies with similar results have been performed on primates. In total there are quite a number of animal studies.
So,
my question is: say this research, peer-reviewed and published, was all compiled, available for all to read. Would you vote to pass a law saying repeat sexual offenders should be castrated? As well, if even pedophilic sexual drive can be stemmed to the normal hormones produced in gonads (i.e. testosterone), would you support castration of those guilty of pedophilia?
Just a side note, castration equals sterility.

Al Coholic
01-22-2010, 11:20 AM
As well, if even pedophilic sexual drive can be stemmed to the normal hormones produced in
Meaning what, you could give them some kind of anti-hormone to sustain their drive? Well if you could then I guess do that. If they still violate or don't take their pills I suppose you can do castration in rare instances. But the thing is that repeat offenders would be thrown away in jail, so what's the point? This would have to be something you give out in extreme cases, like the death sentence. But in those extreme cases, they aren't gonna be gettin outta jail so...

Llamas
01-22-2010, 11:26 AM
Just a side note, castration equals sterility.

There are a few ways people can be castrated, and I'm not entirely sure which one this is. But, from what I've read, the three main ways are:

1) Physically remove sex organs.
2) Use chemicals as a one-time process that permanently sterilizes the person and removes sex drive in its entirety.
3) Use drugs that the offender is required to go to the hospital and take every so often, which strongly reduces/inhibits his sex drive. - if he stops using the drugs, he's no longer "sterile".

I assume what you're referring to is the second type. In my opinion, only the third should be used, unless the guy is a repeated offender who fails to follow the law on taking his drugs. Then I may support the second type being used. However, I definitely feel the first is a huge ethics violation, and someone who is falsely accused of rape could easily end up with his dick being removed. Rape is a really hard thing to prove (much harder to prove than most crimes, really... consent, alcohol, emotions, etc...), so I think the third is the only really okay option unless there is irrefutable proof of repeat offenses, or the guy comes clean.

Rape is such a disgusting thing that I definitely do support some sort of castration repercussion. Many people seem to support all types of castration laws, though, including physical removal. They say, "don't rape people then". These tend to be the same people that strongly support the death penalty...

DMelges
01-22-2010, 11:30 AM
This is a tough one...

I don't think cutting off sexual offenders penises will keep them from harming anyone ever again. They will likely try to repeat the offense, seeking some form of pleasure, even if they can't obtain it sexually. Rapists are violent, not just sexually.

If you were look at it as an 'eye for an eye' situation, you could castrate and throw them in jail, being the worst punishment.

I guess I would allow such a law, simply because I think sexual offenders should have the worst punishment possible.

SweetTatyana
01-22-2010, 11:32 AM
Meaning what, you could give them some kind of anti-hormone to sustain their drive? Well if you could then I guess do that. If they still violate or don't take their pills I suppose you can do castration in rare instances. But the thing is that repeat offenders would be thrown away in jail, so what's the point? This would have to be something you give out in extreme cases, like the death sentence. But in those extreme cases, they aren't gonna be gettin outta jail so...

I should have elaborate a bit. What I mean by saying if it was the case that the sexual urges experienced by pedophilia were still caused by testosterone (which is responsible for sex drive), so that castration would diminish their drive to molest children, would you vote for castration of pedophiles.

Little_Miss_1565
01-22-2010, 11:56 AM
This is a practice in the US already for repeat offenders. Not mandatory but it is a practice. Just wanted to point this out.

SweetTatyana
01-22-2010, 12:04 PM
LM so you mean it is a possible sentence? Do you know how many times you must offend (in general, like a minimum) before it can be applied?

SweetTatyana
01-22-2010, 12:07 PM
I don't think cutting off sexual offenders penises will keep them from harming anyone ever again. They will likely try to repeat the offense, seeking some form of pleasure, even if they can't obtain it sexually. Rapists are violent, not just sexually.
Yeah I was thinking more of the chemical way but I do agree with you that there will always be a residual amount of offense as a result of some other limbic drive, like how the study shows 3 people still re-offended after castruation. But it is can significantly reduce by a large margin, is that something to ignore?

Little_Miss_1565
01-22-2010, 12:10 PM
I would like to emphasize this is in regards to pedophilia, not rape. Laws on rape are generally shitty worldwide. Pedophilia is a crime committed because of desire, where rape is a crime of power, so castration whether physical or chemical is usually pretty effective to prevent recidivism.

ST, I have no idea how many offenses but I've heard of it as a term for parole. If it's being used, it's likely on a case by case basis.

Alison
01-22-2010, 12:15 PM
Hmm, I guess it really depends. For repeat offenders who don't show any signs of changing, I think it could be somewat useful as a last resort.
If it prevents people from being harmed, then this is quite an advantage.

We do it to many animals as a means of safety as well as just preventing reproduction. The very few times I've seen stallions, they've been a lot more high spirited and you must take a lot more caution around them than geldings (castrated horse).
If a person decides that they'd rather act like an animal, then they should be treated as one.

DMelges
01-22-2010, 12:30 PM
Yeah I was thinking more of the chemical way but I do agree with you that there will always be a residual amount of offense as a result of some other limbic drive, like how the study shows 3 people still re-offended after castruation. But it is can significantly reduce by a large margin, is that something to ignore?

No it isn't something to ignore. As you said, the study shows that 3 people re-offended, but were those sexual offenses, or just physical offenses?

And as Little Miss said, rape is a crime of power and pedophilia is desire. So if someone raped another person (not a child), it is often not even a sexual desire that the rapist set out to do. He enjoys the power that he as over the victim. Castrating him won't keep him from bein violent at all. But pedophilia... I'm not sure if it'll work either. Pedophilia is a psychological disorder.

Read this article. It explains the biological associations with pedophilia. So I'm not sure exactly if castration would be enough to destroy this desire.

"Several researchers have reported correlations between pedophilia and certain psychological characteristics, such as low self-esteem and poor social skills. Beginning in 2002, other researchers began reporting a series of findings linking pedophilia with brain structure and function: Pedophilic (and hebephilic) men have lower IQs, poorer scores on memory tests, greater rates of non-right-handedness, greater rates of school grade failure over and above the IQ differences, lesser physical height, greater probability of having suffered childhood head injuries resulting in unconsciousness, and several differences in MRI-detected brain structures. They report that their findings suggest that there are one or more neurological characteristics present at birth that cause or increase the likelihood of being pedophilic. Evidence of familial transmittability "suggests, but does not prove that genetic factors are responsible" for the development of pedophilia.

Another study, using structural MRI, shows that male pedophiles have a lower volume of white matter than a control group.

Functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) has shown that child molesters diagnosed with pedophilia have reduced activation of the hypothalamus as compared with non-pedophilic persons when viewing sexually arousing pictures of adults. A 2008 functional neuroimaging study notes that central processing of sexual stimuli in heterosexual "paedophile forensic inpatients" may be altered by a disturbance in the prefrontal networks, which "may be associated with stimulus-controlled behaviours, such as sexual compulsive behaviours." The findings may also suggest "a dysfunction at the cognitive stage of sexual arousal processing."

Blanchard, Cantor, and Robichaud (2006) reviewed the research that attempted to identify hormonal aspects of pedophiles. They concluded that there is some evidence that pedophilic men have less testosterone than controls, but that the research is of poor quality and that it is difficult to draw any firm conclusion from it.

While not causes of pedophilia themselves, comorbid psychiatric illnesses — such as personality disorders and substance abuse — are risk factors for acting on pedophilic urges. Blanchard, Cantor, and Robichaud (2006) noted about comorbid psychiatric illnesses that, "The theoretical implications are not so clear. Do particular genes or noxious factors in the prenatal environment predispose a male to develop both affective disorders and pedophilia, or do the frustration, danger, and isolation engendered by unacceptable sexual desires—or their occasional furtive satisfaction—lead to anxiety and despair?" They indicated that, because they previously found mothers of pedophiles to be more likely to have undergone psychiatric treatment, the genetic possibility is more likely."

SweetTatyana
01-22-2010, 12:59 PM
Oh yeah, Dan that stuff is very interesting. Yeah, at this point of brain research, I think trying to piece together all of the evidence to decide if it would work would be tiresome, and quite incomplete. Waiting for the gaps to fill in will also take quite some time. If other counties who do apply the treatment and see significantly reduced reoffenders, I think that is more what we should be focussing on in terms of law making at this time. Once information on the molecular biology and anatomical differences observed between that of pedophiles and the brains of "normal" human beings, and link them meaningfully to the behaviour, hopefully then there will be a way to reverse it before anyone gets hurt. The studies that I was looking for were less mechanistic, just looking for the cause and effect.

Another interesting thing I was wondering that was brought up by that article was the genetics behind pedophilia because apparently, most pedophiles themselves have been sexually abused when they were young. But likely, the abuse would have come from somebody close like a family member and thus the gene could be in the family, or it could be a trait more caused by experience?

Hmm I found this castration method is also being put into use in Great Britian and Poland, and so I am guessing other places as well. Maybe this is the "priliminary" step to see if they do encounter success where it might become mandatory.

T-6005
01-22-2010, 01:12 PM
Alright, I'll play along with the idea. Let's unpack this sucker a little bit.

I suppose we're talking about castration as a preventative measure and not a curative one. Recidivism has probably been a factor and we're assuming that in his (or her) current state the individual will continue to be a danger, so we inhibit (or remove) their ability to act on their desires, either by removing their ability to do so or inhibiting their hormonal production to attack desire in general. This is pretty clearly in an effort to reintegrate them into society at large, since were they kept in jail there'd be no need for prevention.

Either way, we're not attacking the cause. Have we truly 'cured' the pedophile? Are his newfound passivity and reduced likelihood of offense the only preconditions we set for release and reintegration? In a related question – is pedophilia caused by hormones? I have no doubt that there are neurological and physiological differences which set them apart from the norm, but that doesn't mean they were born pedophiles – and that means that there is a cause. Trauma, social factors, histories of abuse or a general inuring to the idea of children playing a part in sexual desire... These would probably be the causes (although I have no expertise whatsoever in this area), and I wonder if they are being ignored in favor of a more blanket solution.

Is it enough to prevent? Is it moral to remove the tools and leave the cause, so to speak?

I can't say it's wrong to protect children from this, because that would be really dumb – but I do question whether the solution is simply a way to not have to deal with these troubled individuals any more. They need help, error of their ways and all that.

There's also the idea of individual sovereignty to consider. Certainly criminals give up certain rights as citizens and thus are subject to incarceration and limitation, but how far are we willing to go to prevent recidivism?

It's a tricky question, really. For pedophilia, it's hard not to see the benefit. But if we allow invasive procedures like this one (and chemicals or no, this violates individual sovereignty in a very powerful way) for one crime, why not others? On some level this is the ideal of justice we see in portrayals of the Middle Ages – thieves can't steal without their hands. Heretics can't spread their lies nailed to crosses.

Again, I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing – I think the question is interesting, though, and comes with a whole bag of similarly loaded issues.

DMelges
01-22-2010, 02:14 PM
It's hard to say what will be enough to 'cure' pedophilia, because like SweetTatyana said, most abusers were abused in childhood. So even if you neutralize them, they will still have their scars and traumas. They will still be prone to violence.

"Pedophilic (and hebephilic) men have lower IQs, poorer scores on memory tests, greater rates of non-right-handedness, greater rates of school grade failure over and above the IQ differences, lesser physical height, greater probability of having suffered childhood head injuries resulting in unconsciousness, and several differences in MRI-detected brain structures. They report that their findings suggest that there are one or more neurological characteristics present at birth that cause or increase the likelihood of being pedophilic."

As you can see, these phsycological disorders go way beyond the desire of sex. So will castration make the pedophilic men have higher IQs? Give them higheh physical height? Too many unsolved questions in this matter.

As T said, these are portrayals of punishment from the Middle Ages. Hard to steal when you don't have hands, and hard to commit adultery when you don't have sexual organs. But who says they won't try ?

SweetTatyana
01-22-2010, 06:57 PM
Actually, there seems to be controversy if you search this chemical castration where some psychologists and psychiatrist believe its a cure (of course some don't).
I agree with you dan, there isn't going to be a "one size fits all" cure for pedophilia
I think the thing that has me torn is the fact that any other mention of castration has always appalled me since being sexual and reproduction is so innately natural (as it had to be for the survival of our species) but on the other hand repeated rapists and pedophiles, even if it can only stop some of them. Seriously, if somebody rapes a women, gets caught and goes to jail is released and does it again, I really have no sympathy for them. If there was extremely strong evidence like DNA or videotapes, I don't think I would stand in the way of them being castrated to be honest.

DMelges
01-22-2010, 07:36 PM
What I think is interesting though, is how animals behave. Your pet dog, for example. You castrated him. He has no desire for sex. Yet you still find him humping something once and a while. That's domination. They are marking their territory.
I have no reason to believe that humans won't do the same. They will continue searching for dominance.

And I also have no sympathy whatsoever for sexual abusers.

Harleyquiiinn
01-23-2010, 02:25 AM
When I went to Erasmus in Denmark, I took a crominology course. In my class, there were Danes (of course), english, Norwegians (althoug, I never understood why they chose Denmark to study abroad... that's a little bit like if I had chosen Belgium...) Anyway.

We had a debate night, about castration. I was in the group "against" of course.

I was completely shocked and amazed to even think that we could consider castration.

But then, the guys from Norway talked. And they explained than in their country, it already exists. But it is completely voluntary.
You see, you can lock someone up in order to protect society, but you can't alter his body. Not in Europe anyway... so it was made for sexual offenders who couldn't actually resist to their pulsion but didn't WANT to do it again.

These ex offenders seemed to consider this as a cure for sure. It definitely made their lives better. The official statistical feedbacks of satisfaction were apparently great.

I then told them: yes but if one day, they follow a therapy and they change their mind, they are castrated !

But no, apparently, it is completely reversible.

So I used to be against it and I changed my mind. As long as it is voluntary and reversible, OF COURSE. But in my opinion, it's a win-win for "honest" offender and society.

The only problem I have with this is that, if you start introducing this in the law, there is a thin line between asking them if they want to and force them in practice...

Also, I don't think it would be productive to force people to get a castration as a criminal sentence. I think it was RagDoll who made a very good point about this a few months ago. Some sexual offenders are just seeking power of coercition over another person's body. The sex can be an accessory. The pulsion might just be violence.
In that case, you can castrate them as long as you want, they will still be violent...

One thing when it comes to pedophilia is sure. No matter if you lock them up or castrate them. Therapy and psychological treatment have to be given.

Alison
01-23-2010, 04:11 AM
What I think is interesting though, is how animals behave. Your pet dog, for example. You castrated him. He has no desire for sex. Yet you still find him humping something once and a while. That's domination. They are marking their territory.
I have no reason to believe that humans won't do the same. They will continue searching for dominance.


Not to the extent as uncastrated dogs? I'm not quite sure for dogs. But a male horse, when castrated, just acts like a mare...in fact mares can be more dangerous than geldings when they're in heat.

I'm guessing there is difference throughout animals though.

Paint_It_Black
01-23-2010, 04:26 AM
I think it was RagDoll who made a very good point about this a few months ago. Some sexual offenders are just seeking power of coercition over another person's body. The sex can be an accessory. The pulsion might just be violence.

I've made similar arguments before. Removing the ability to have sex does not prevent a person from molesting someone. Removing sexual desire probably helps a lot, though I still wouldn't feel like a known offender was now entirely safe.

Back to the main topic: I'm in favor of offering castration in exchange for a shorter prison sentence.

Llamas
01-23-2010, 05:46 AM
I've made similar arguments before. Removing the ability to have sex does not prevent a person from molesting someone. Removing sexual desire probably helps a lot, though I still wouldn't feel like a known offender was now entirely safe.

I do agree about this, and hadn't thought of it that way before. People who rape/molest for power/control reasons would still do it. But there are definitely a lot of people out there who (well, at least they claim) can't control their urges and feel terrible about it after the fact. I believe that in many people's cases, it's an uncontrollable urge. Sex drives are powerful things, and I think most people have urges they choose to repress. Some people probably can't just choose to repress things, though. But I definitely agree that you can't stop all instances of this stuff with castration. Jail is most likely the better option.


Back to the main topic: I'm in favor of offering castration in exchange for a shorter prison sentence.
I would also support this - if the guy is proven guilty and it's a situation where castration would actually be effective. Totally.

WebDudette
01-23-2010, 05:58 AM
Long story short, a guy basically molested my best friend and another good friend at my house a few months ago while everyone was passed out. Tonight, another kid said it was 'time to forget about it and move past it'. Now, not only do I want to beat the shit out of the original kid, I wouldn't mind doing the same to the other kid. That isn't something to move past and get over.

Regarding the thread, if it is something that you know for certain, or if it involves children, then by all means, go for llamas number 2, if not the number 1.

Paint_It_Black
01-23-2010, 08:49 AM
That isn't something to move past and get over.

While I completely understand what you are saying, surely it is always better for victims to move past these things and get over them. Assuming that can be done, of course. The fact that abuse often ruins entire lives forever is the most tragic part. At least attempting to get over it has to be commended, surely. Now, if the kid said that in a way that really meant "they should shut up about it" then please kick him once in the balls for me while you are beating some respect into him.

WebDudette
01-23-2010, 11:08 AM
It was more of a 'nah man, we need to get over it, he is a good guy, you should hangout with him, give him another chance' type thing. I definitely understand what you are saying, and I can reason that, but that wasn't what he was trying to get at.

Little_Miss_1565
01-23-2010, 11:24 AM
Pilz, castrate the guy who said that. Ugh.

DMelges
01-23-2010, 11:43 AM
Pilz, castrate the guy who said that. Ugh.

I second that.

SweetTatyana
01-23-2010, 12:17 PM
It was more of a 'nah man, we need to get over it, he is a good guy, you should hangout with him, give him another chance'

If this guy thinks the person who molested your friends is a "good guy" I would hate to meet any of his other associates.

DMelges
01-23-2010, 12:29 PM
If this guy thinks the person who molested your friends is a "good guy" I would hate to meet any of his other associates.

Just imagine who he doesn't like.

Llamas
01-23-2010, 01:12 PM
I agreed with PiB, til Pilz replied again. What the fucking fuck.

There was a situation with people I know, some of which I'm or was friends with. This guy I was friends with, Scott, was suddenly on the line for having raped two girls I'm friends with. The two girls were quite drunk, and he majorly took advantage of them. When they woke up, there was blood... they were hurt... etc. They left the premise, and one of them wanted to go to the police, but the other was afraid to or something. They didn't go at first (they went later, but it was too late to prove anything), but the entire (huge) circle of friends found out about it. Most people were divided about who to believe, because he straight up denied it.

Then my best friend at the time told me she believed it 100%. When I asked her why, she told me that one time, he asked her to tutor him in calculus. He showed up to her place with a backpack full of liquor, and proceeded to get drunk while she tried to get homework done. He came onto her, and pressed the issue until she eventually had to knee him in the junk and kick him out of her place. She tried to tell people (mutual friends) about it after it happened, but they went to him and told him what she said... he twisted it around and made it sound like she came onto him and rejected her. The whole thing explained a lot of the dynamics of the group... and how people often treated her.

And those people, who took his side and ignored the fact that there were now three girls who claimed to have had issues with this guy, went into silent mode when asked about any of it. What honestly disgusted me almost more than what he did were all these people who had his back, even though they didn't seem to believe him...

Paint_It_Black
01-23-2010, 01:31 PM
It was more of a 'nah man, we need to get over it, he is a good guy, you should hangout with him, give him another chance' type thing.

That's almost unfathomable. I am dismayed that people still regularly shock me.

_Lost_
01-23-2010, 03:24 PM
...rape stuff...

It's horrendously disgusting that things like this are allowed to go on in a group. Its not the first story like this that I've heard from someone I actually know. In a situation like that, I'd be on their side against this dude. He seemed to have the rest fooled. However, I've seen it be the other way around, where the girl was clearly lying and the guy's social life is destroyed because she didn't want to admit it was consensual. Later, there was evidence that she lied, but the guy's rep was still in ashes.

Llamas
01-23-2010, 03:36 PM
It's horrendously disgusting that things like this are allowed to go on in a group. Its not the first story like this that I've heard from someone I actually know. In a situation like that, I'd be on their side against this dude. He seemed to have the rest fooled. However, I've seen it be the other way around, where the girl was clearly lying and the guy's social life is destroyed because she didn't want to admit it was consensual. Later, there was evidence that she lied, but the guy's rep was still in ashes.

Yeah, it can go either way... rape is such an easily manipulated and unprovable thing. The reason I believed he was guilty was because there were three people who all claimed the same thing... and one of them was my best friend, who would've had no motivation to lie to me about such a thing.

I don't know anyone that the reverse has happened to, but I've heard of it happening a number of times... fucking sick. Rape is such a horrible thing, I can't fathom the fact that people make a mockery of it by framing someone. I hate to say that people who do such things should be raped for it, but I feel it true.

SweetTatyana
01-23-2010, 05:51 PM
I have never heard of it happening the other way around but whoever lies about being raped is pretty fucked. Honestly too it sucks because as soon as alcohol is involved, it must be so hazy? A really close friend of mine had this guy that was always trying to sleep with her and she turned him down on like 8 or 9 occasions. One night they were all going out and some other guy came up to her and was just like buying her drinks all night, and she was about 19 at this point, then she blacked out, woke up the next day with the first guy that had been trying to sleep with her the whole time - and they had sex but she can't even remember. It turned out the guy buying her drinks all night was his cousin and he just pretended they never met before. Even worse is like some of her girlfriends were there who knew the whole situation and didn't like help her. I would call that rape but shes like theres no way he'd get charged for it and shes probably right.

_Lost_
01-23-2010, 06:26 PM
I'm sure he would've had she reported it. That's full on rape. She turned him down repeatedly, so then he got his cousin to get her drunk. That's fucked up.

I had a guy try to take advantage of me once. I didn't realize what was going on till the next day. The only reason it didn't work was because my friend ran out of the room crying about something completely unrelated and I managed to pull away and run after her. At that point, I wasn't even concerned about what he was doing and wasn't trying to get away from him. That part scares me. I was just trying to get to my friend. I know right after all that I left and made my way to my computer for some drunken IMing.

That's one of the few things I remember from that night. I'm glad I remember it. I don't drink like that around people I don't know well anymore.

Little_Miss_1565
01-23-2010, 08:39 PM
Tatyana, what you described is actually illegal and would likely have resulted in charges against him.

SweetTatyana
01-23-2010, 11:36 PM
Yeah I know it was really awful and I told her it was rape because of how many times she did say no prior and how intoxicated she was. But, on the other hand she was really in denial, she didn't tell me until months after it happened and I am pretty sure only 2-3 people know. I think she really didn't want to go to the police because she couldn't remember anything and I think she didn't want to admit it and go through the whole thing, tell her parents etc., she pretty much freaked when I mentioned going to the cops with her so I mean, I am not going to push somebody to do that. Standing in front of cops, a judge and a whole courtroom with explaining that must be so terrifying and mortifying and I think its incredibly commendable when people do it because it gets rapists off the street but if she doesn't want to I can't make her.

Llamas
01-24-2010, 01:37 AM
Tatyana, that's awful... and just plain sick, especially with the friends getting involved. How can that guy be okay with himself?

I understand the concept that some people have power trips and that causes them to rape people (I think often times they hope the person will end up liking it by the end)... but what I don't understand are people who want someone, but that person keeps turning them down, so they drugs or alcohol or some sort of inhibitor to get the person senseless... why would you even WANT to sleep with someone in that state? I've liked my share of people I couldn't have, and there have been a few I most certainly could've hooked up with after they were pretty well plastered. But I didn't want to - not just because it's wrong, but mostly because ew. Getting down with a drunk person isn't even remotely fun... wtf. I would be so absolutely disgusted with myself.

Harleyquiiinn
01-24-2010, 02:48 AM
I have never heard of it happening the other way around but whoever lies about being raped is pretty fucked. Honestly too it sucks because as soon as alcohol is involved, it must be so hazy? A really close friend of mine had this guy that was always trying to sleep with her and she turned him down on like 8 or 9 occasions. One night they were all going out and some other guy came up to her and was just like buying her drinks all night, and she was about 19 at this point, then she blacked out, woke up the next day with the first guy that had been trying to sleep with her the whole time - and they had sex but she can't even remember. It turned out the guy buying her drinks all night was his cousin and he just pretended they never met before. Even worse is like some of her girlfriends were there who knew the whole situation and didn't like help her. I would call that rape but shes like theres no way he'd get charged for it and shes probably right.

Actually, lying happened.

There is this woman here who lied about being raped by a homeless guy...
The guy spent 2 years in jail untill she admitted she lied. Pretty fucked up... she couldn't even explained why she did it...
Same thing happened with a woman saying that she had been raped in a train by a group of people about 3 years ago...
That is the exception but it happens...and it sucks because now, there is kind of a defiance when a woman claims she has been raped.
After the train woman, another one claimed she was raped in a trai about 6 months ago. The prosecutor didn't want to say anything untill there was proof. They never said she might be lying but all the newspaper and everyone was a lot more reluctant to believe her... And in the end, it was true for her....

_Lost_
01-24-2010, 09:54 AM
Tatyana, that's awful... and just plain sick, especially with the friends getting involved. How can that guy be okay with himself?
I forgot to mention when I was talking about the guy trying to take advantage of me, that my friend was the one to get me so drunk for his friend (I just met the guy earlier) to take advantage of me. My other friend overheard them when I was out of the room "Okay, she is drunk now. You can go for it." He told me that the next day.


There is this woman here who lied about being raped in a train by a homeless guy... *other stuff*

There was a case a few years ago that happened here. Three guys on the Duke lacrosse team got accused of raping a stripper that they had hired for their party. The whole lacrosse team got shut down while investigations ensued. It was a real legal mess. It took more than a year to clear their names and then most of the kids on the team sued the school over it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Duke_University_lacrosse_case

Harleyquiiinn
01-24-2010, 10:37 AM
I forgot to mention when I was talking about the guy trying to take advantage of me, that my friend was the one to get me so drunk for his friend (I just met the guy earlier) to take advantage of me. My other friend overheard them when I was out of the room "Okay, she is drunk now. You can go for it." He told me that the next day.



Good friends you have here... I don't know who is the best though, the one who got you drunk or the one who didn't tell you right away but just the next day...

SweetTatyana
01-24-2010, 10:39 AM
I forgot to mention when I was talking about the guy trying to take advantage of me, that my friend was the one to get me so drunk for his friend (I just met the guy earlier) to take advantage of me. My other friend overheard them when I was out of the room "Okay, she is drunk now. You can go for it." He told me that the next day.


Umm yeah I really hope someone kicked that guys ass for you, wtf why would he do that?

Hmm HarleyQuinn that is really sad people lie about it, I think there really must be something wrong in someone's head to just lie about being raped by a homeless man. Really though, now people who are raped now have to face people thinking their lying, that is going to make it even harder to come forward than it already is. :(

T-6005
01-24-2010, 03:10 PM
I understand the concept that some people have power trips and that causes them to rape people (I think often times they hope the person will end up liking it by the end)

I hate not having any research to consider what I'm about to say, but I'm not sure that's entirely true.

That's not to say people don't exist who do want this, but rape is (as Sarah said) about power rather than sex. Which makes it about control rather than pleasure, if you will. The victim's enjoyment has nothing to do with the exercise of control - in fact, it seems like it would be the act of overpowering attempts at resistance which would be the biggest iteration of that control. Hoping "the person will end up liking it by the end" runs counter to that.

T-6005
01-24-2010, 03:17 PM
As for the few posts following mine that were considering the original topic, I was thinking about the potential for more Middle Ages-style justice.

It's not that I'm against chemical castration (especially willing) in some of these cases, but I am serious about the difference between preventative measures and curative measures. You may be reintroducing a person with a reduced capability for one kind of deviant behavior back into society, but that doesn't preclude other offenses due to sublimated desires.

We're playing with a really grey area because we're setting up the dam without considering whether the river can flow around it and go somewhere else. We also aren't considering whether we're opening the door for other dams in smaller rivers which aren't necessary and which may themselves be diverted in other ways.

PS - the rivers are perversions (or illegal acts) and the dams represent castration.

PPS - I know it's a crappy analogy, but I like it.

Little_Miss_1565
01-24-2010, 03:38 PM
I hate not having any research to consider what I'm about to say, but I'm not sure that's entirely true.

That's not to say people don't exist who do want this, but rape is (as Sarah said) about power rather than sex. Which makes it about control rather than pleasure, if you will. The victim's enjoyment has nothing to do with the exercise of control - in fact, it seems like it would be the act of overpowering attempts at resistance which would be the biggest iteration of that control. Hoping "the person will end up liking it by the end" runs counter to that.

Yes. The described date-rape situations where douchebags get someone drunk beyond the point of coherence to take advantage of her are more about revenge for turning him down in the first place rather than just really wanting to bone her that badly -- like "You think you can say no to me? I'll show you who gets the last laugh." There are many different kinds of rapists (see also Criminal Minds for the Reader's Digest version) with many different MOs and reasons for doing it, and none of them have anything to do with just wanting to have sex.

But we were originally talking about castration as a means of curing pedophiles of their desire to abuse children. Pedophilia is an entirely different set of psychological issues than rape, and it is about sexual gratification -- these dudes are sexually attracted to children, and castration, whether surgical or chemical, cures it by taking away all sexual desires. They may still be psychologically attracted to kids but no longer posess the means to do anything about it or get anything out of it. The want is still there but the reward is removed.

Also -- yes, some women lie about rape, and that is fucking disgusting. As a general rule, you should always, always believe a woman when she says it's happened but of course still investigate.

WebDudette
01-24-2010, 08:26 PM
This shit kills me, it genuinely infuriates me. I was talking to a friend of mine last night about a kid I've always kinda distrusted. She told me about the time she went to a party immediately after her then boyfriend left for the army. She was standing by a friend of hers who was sitting down, he grabbed her by the waist and pulled her onto his lap and was trying to put his hands in her shorts. He knew she had a boyfriend too, in fact they are kinda friends. He was drunk, she was sober. But if this is the shit you pull drunk, you need to stop drinking. Honestly, I'm just creeped out/don't understand blatant hitting on. That is not to say I haven't talked to a girl because I was interested in her, but I feel like there is a difference between talking to a girl and blatantly hitting on her. But as T pointed out in a thread a while back, it very obviously works, which I find pretty unfortunate.

Oh, but back to the matter at hand, any form of taking advantage of, inappropriately touching, or uncomfortable classless flirting aggravates the hell out of me.

Harleyquiiinn
01-24-2010, 11:27 PM
Yes. The described date-rape situations where douchebags get someone drunk beyond the point of coherence to take advantage of her are more about revenge for turning him down in the first place rather than just really wanting to bone her that badly -- like "You think you can say no to me? I'll show you who gets the last laugh." There are many different kinds of rapists (see also Criminal Minds for the Reader's Digest version) with many different MOs and reasons for doing it, and none of them have anything to do with just wanting to have sex.

But we were originally talking about castration as a means of curing pedophiles of their desire to abuse children. Pedophilia is an entirely different set of psychological issues than rape, and it is about sexual gratification -- these dudes are sexually attracted to children, and castration, whether surgical or chemical, cures it by taking away all sexual desires. They may still be psychologically attracted to kids but no longer posess the means to do anything about it or get anything out of it. The want is still there but the reward is removed.

Also -- yes, some women lie about rape, and that is fucking disgusting. As a general rule, you should always, always believe a woman when she says it's happened but of course still investigate.

I believe you are mistaken on this. As for rapist, there are many different kind of pedophiles and among them, people who would do it only/mostly for power and control.

That is why chemical castration would work for some and not for others.

Little_Miss_1565
01-24-2010, 11:46 PM
I certainly hope you're only disagreeing with that point of mine and not the post as a whole.

I can imagine there are pedophiles that do it for power and control, but the vast majority of them are just trying to have sex with children. Of course each case should be taken under consideration on its own, which is why not all convicted pedophiles in the US end up chemically castrated.

Harleyquiiinn
01-24-2010, 11:51 PM
I certainly hope you're only disagreeing with that point of mine and not the post as a whole.

I can imagine there are pedophiles that do it for power and control, but the vast majority of them are just trying to have sex with children. Of course each case should be taken under consideration on its own, which is why not all convicted pedophiles in the US end up chemically castrated.

Of course, just with that part. I don't see how what I said could be related to the rest of your post... :confused:

Little_Miss_1565
01-25-2010, 12:17 AM
I was just confused since you quoted my whole post when saying I was mistaken.

Offspring-Junkie
01-26-2010, 05:57 AM
I'd allow castration if they aren't willing to sit they whole life in prison. If they can't stop raping, they shall be chemically castrated or caged for life. Or raped to death by a horse.

SweetTatyana
01-26-2010, 10:44 AM
This is something that worries me about repeating criminals is that the jails (here at least) are overloaded which affects sentancing and early parole. I think the worst thing is when people have been convicted of rape twice and are released, with no treatment (chemical, psychological or other), who will probably put another poor woman through that horrible experience again. If jails can't hold people who are not ready to be put on the streets something needs to be implemented because these experiences can ruin someones life.

killer_queen
01-26-2010, 02:48 PM
A little off-topic but there's something I don't understand about drunk-rape situations. What if both parties are drunk and they have sex, who gets the blame then? I guess Pilz-e said that if one acts like that when drunk, he should stop drinking and it is a good suggestion but, come on, who does the exact same things every time he gets drunk? I know rape is a disgusting crime but putting the drunk guy in the same place with the rapists who plan the whole thing seems a little unfair.

Offspring-Junkie
01-27-2010, 09:37 AM
If you have the right lawyer, you can achieve anything at court. But to stay at topic: I think there is a difference, if the victim obviously shows that she isn't interested in any intercourse. If she's drunk and does nothing against it or just poorly, it'll be difficult to prove she was actually raped. If you're unconscious or sleeping, well, that's a different thing.

Paint_It_Black
01-27-2010, 10:46 AM
Oh, but back to the matter at hand, any form of taking advantage of, inappropriately touching, or uncomfortable classless flirting aggravates the hell out of me.

Agreed. To the extent that I can't imagine ever making the first move with a woman. That's how sure I want to be that my interest is returned.


What if both parties are drunk and they have sex, who gets the blame then?

The guy. That may not be fair, and sometimes people get themselves in horrible situations due to their own stupidity, but go with the side of caution. I think that's generally the right side to be on.

Ultimately women need to be careful who they get drunk with in order to lower the risk of rape, and men need to think very carefully before having sex with a drunk woman in order to lower the risk of being accused of rape. Basically don't be dumb, whatever your gender.