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Harleyquiiinn
01-26-2010, 09:25 AM
http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=123298

Summary for the ones who don't want to read.

In Bangladesh, a 16 yo girl who has been raped was then sentenced to receive 101 lashes. BUT that wasn't the justice of the country, it was an extra judicial fatwa.

(funny number... why one hundred and ONE ?)

Anyway, now, I can understand, although I don't approve it, that some people/cultures/religion/countries can sentence each other with corporal punishment.

I can also understand that some people/cultures/countries/religion could think, although I don't approve, that the woman has to cover herself because men are all sexual addicts who can't control their thoughts.

Now, what I DON'T understand is how a VICTIM can be transformed into a GUILTY person ??? I thought the notion of victim was kind of universal... someone who has been hurt by someone else.

I mean, she was RAPED ! What was she supposed to do not to get sentenced ??? Obvisouly, she couldn't defend herself or she would have done it not to get raped. Where is her fault in this ??? How can she be considered guilty of ANYTHING ?

AllIn All It's Not So Bad
01-26-2010, 10:28 AM
i know exactly how you feel. that's why i think all religions are a big pile of bullshit

DMelges
01-26-2010, 10:37 AM
i know exactly how you feel. that's why i think all religions are a big pile of bullshit

Yes...... Yes Yes Yes.

In some places in the world, adultery is the worst crime you can commit. In some places, kissing is more 'sacred' than sex. We live in a fucked up world, that's for sure.

Llamas
01-26-2010, 10:53 AM
My mom belongs to some type of Christianity (though I believe it's really some cult), and she believes that women are to blame for rape. She told my 14 year old niece that, because she wears shorts and tank tops, she's responsible for making men horny and causing them to rape other girls. In my mom's point of view, men hold no responsibility for this - it's all the woman's fault.

A scary example is the aftermath of the genocide against Muslims by Serbia in the 90s. As part of the genocide, the Serbian men raped Muslim women, locked them away in jail, and forced them to give birth. The law was that the father determined the nationality/religion, so these were Serbian/Christian babies. After everything was said and done, none of the Muslim women would come forth and testify that they'd been raped, because they would've been disowned and banished at the very LEAST. By their own families. Because they were raped. The shame of having been "intimate" with a man you're not married to (especially a Christian/Serb) somehow massively outweighs the fact that you were hurt and taken advantage of. I consider myself a fairly open person, but things like this I just have the hardest time accepting. It's just disgusting and scary...

wheelchairman
01-26-2010, 01:23 PM
I knew this religious guy who robbed a bank. Man is there any evil religion isn't responsible for?

I'm a true punk, it's better to burn out than fade away! Like Jesu...DAMNIT

Harleyquiiinn
01-26-2010, 01:40 PM
Actually, I didn't mean to stigmatize (I HATE that word... but it's practical...) religions or one religion in particular.

I am actually a mystical person eventhough I don't believe myself. I think it's unfair to see only what evil religions create when they also create some good things... maybe more to individuals but still...

That sentence to that girl was made by some men. And very stupid men too...

Anyway, that should be in the Big Religion thread...

The thing is, I'm wondering about the concept of victim. Here in civil law, we have a rule that says that when the victim committed a fault to create the situation he/she is in, the damages he/she will get will be reduced. But the victim is STILL considered a victim. For example, a guy who had is BMW with leather seats stolen but left it unlocked for 3 days in the middle of a bad neighborhood can't pretend that he wasn't expecting it.
Still, there will be no question about wether he is a victim of an offence or not.

In this matter, the fact that they considered she committed a fault by not covering enough (if that's the case) is shocking but refusing to acknowledge her as a victim is the worst thing that can be done. It doesn't only say "you could have avoided what happened" (eventhough in that case, that's not true), it means "what they did to you wasn't wrong".

Now, I'd like to precise that obvisouly, she can go to real justice. I don't think she will, sadly, but fortunately this is NOT the justice of an entire country.

wheelchairman
01-26-2010, 02:22 PM
No, the first reply was simply an easy attempt to change it to an anti-religion discussion (when the potential here for discussion in the original topic would've been far more interesting.)

That's what I'm talking about yo.

AllIn All It's Not So Bad
01-26-2010, 02:43 PM
No, the first reply was simply an easy attempt to change it to an anti-religion discussion (when the potential here for discussion in the original topic would've been far more interesting.)

That's what I'm talking about yo.

are you accusing me of derailing harley's thread? i would never do that. i want a trial:)

maybe she was transformed into a guilty person because she was a woman. I haven't really checked out the site because i know of stories like this. for example, some girl was punished for fucking a goat or something(can't remember, shrooms). i'm gonna guess and say this country has no respect for women's rights

Alison
01-26-2010, 03:44 PM
I presume it's something like "She instigated it by showing off too much of her body" type shit?


In fact, what was really really shocking, was something like this (kind of...minus the 101 lashes and a few other details) happened not even two hours away from me.
Basically what happened was a young woman was raped (or badly sexually assaulted, cant remember) and left by some dumpsters. Basically, everyone in the town went against her (she wasnt originally from there) because the man who did it was always known as a good man.
But she eventually spoke up, and on the day of trial, all the men of the town (including the priest) lined up to shake hands with the man who did it, and this was after he was found guilty. I mean, people from the town rang in to say "She obviously instigated it, because we all know he's a good guy". Sickening really.
Poeple are pretty effed up.

Reminds me of that book "The Bookseller of Kabul", which is based on real life , where the author went to live with a muslim family for a few months. It's pretty shocking stuff.

T-6005
01-26-2010, 05:47 PM
There's a fantastic book by Melissa Wright about Ciudad Juarez in Mexico that deals with this sort of idea - it introduces the idea of a 'Death by Culture' narrative, in which the victim's position is changed to that of instigator or temptress.

The idea is that she shouldn't have been out there in the first place, and that if she was in the sort of situation where she gets raped then she isn't where she should have been - it's coupled with a passive understand that 'men will be men' when seeing women like this. It's both ridiculous and fascinating.

Basically, it works as a way to exculpate the local and to remove them from any consideration of blame - the reason the victim was raped (or, in Wright's book, murdered) is supposedly because she was behaving outside accepted norms, and so it shouldn't be any surprise that something monstrous happened to her.

Nobody wants to believe that they helped facilitate a horrible crime, and this is a good way to sidestep blame.

AllIn All It's Not So Bad
01-26-2010, 06:38 PM
it's coupled with a passive understand that 'men will be men' when seeing women like this. It's both ridiculous and fascinating.


it's kinda sexist because it is oppressing the women just by making up some bullshit excuse. men will be men, that sounds like it came from the koran.

wheelchairman
01-27-2010, 01:55 AM
The problem with what we're doing is we're assuming that Bangladesh is handling this with the same way male-chauvinists or just dumbasses rationalize these actions in the west, with a western mentality.

Before we judge them or whatever, we should make our minds a clean slate as to what we know about how they think, their culture, their extra-legal system, and their customs. It's really really easy for us here in the west to say that muslim countries are all sexist shitholes where people get stoned to death for things that shouldn't be crimes. And they also have ridiculous notions about our lifestyles too I'd imagine.

To begin with, the fact that this is an extra-judicial court already suggests that this isn't particularly urban. And glancing at the artical you can see that it happened in what is likely a rural village, a punishment issued by the 'village elders'. I did a little more research to find out about this village, but apparently the journalist saw the words' Kasba Upazila' and thought it was the name of the town as opposed to a larger district in Bangladesh. (So the village where this happened is somewhere in the Kasba District.)

Anyways about Kasba district did you know that in the entirety of this district literacy is only 30.7%? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasba_Upazila#Demographics) That's according to a 1990 census.

Anyways I'm digressing, we're talking about a rural peoples with no education, issuing an extra-judicial punishment that was illegal according to the supreme court of Bangladesh.

This isn't representative of Islam, this isn't representative of Bangladesh, this isn't representative of religion as a whole. So the whole first part of this thread is de-railed trash. Fuck all y'all I'm gonna play knowledgeball!

Also since this is disconcordant with the supreme court we can assume that this place might be remote or even hard to get to. Since the administrative arm of the law seems to be having a hard time doing its job. We're talking about how the police department is a weaker institution in this village, than its 'village council'.

So as for rationalizing why they ruled how they ruled, well we all have pretty much the same information, and for a lot of you, I hope you have a little more now. :)

p.s. Allinall, have you read the koran? And if not, how do you know when something 'sounds like it comes from the Koran'? I mean holy crap. This make come from the Koran, something pretty irrelevant in an area with 30.3% literacy.

Llamas
01-27-2010, 03:15 AM
I wanted to comment on allinall's post, too. Not only does Harley's original post mention nothing about religion, but it's absurd to assume 1) being religious automatically means you believe these kinds of things are okay, and 2) all religions are the same.

Also, people who assume the koran says shit... sound like they've only seen a few scriptures quoted on anti-middle east sites. I've never read ANY of the koran, so I don't know what it says. Neither do you. Stop pretending you do.

Paint_It_Black
01-27-2010, 10:15 AM
Not only does Harley's original post mention nothing about religion

O rly?



In Bangladesh, a 16 yo girl who has been raped was then sentenced to receive 101 lashes. BUT that wasn't the justice of the country, it was an extra judicial fatwa

A fatwā (Arabic: فتوى‎; plural fatāwā Arabic: فتاوى‎), in the Islamic faith is a religious opinion concerning Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar.

I play a little amateur knowledgeball on the weekends.

Harleyquiiinn
01-27-2010, 10:21 AM
O rly?



A fatwā (Arabic: فتوى‎; plural fatāwā Arabic: فتاوى‎), in the Islamic faith is a religious opinion concerning Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar.

I play a little amateur knowledgeball on the weekends.

I can see that but Ilovellamas is right. This is a summary of the article who defines it that way.

:p

You could say, however, that I said the word "religion" twice in my first message...

But anyway, this really wasn't meant to turn into an anti religion thread or anti islam thread at all. So thank you Wheelchairman and llamas for your messages to keep the thread in the rails. :favoritejapsmileythatIamtoolazytofindnow:

Paint_It_Black
01-27-2010, 10:27 AM
I haven't read the article or done any research whatsoever (I only play knowledgeball on the weekends, remember?) but if it was a fatwa then religion cannot be ignored in the discussion.

wheelchairman
01-27-2010, 11:49 AM
Perhaps, but I thought we were supposed to be discussing the issue of varying concepts of victims. Not how illiterate peasants in the Islamic world are evil (or vaguely similar to southern conservatives).

Harleyquiiinn
01-28-2010, 12:36 PM
Bangladesh is a backward backwater, what else did you expect?

I don't know... I am not a naive you know... world is mostly unfair, I know that... but I am quite obsessive with justice...