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bighead384
01-16-2012, 07:40 AM
It seems to me that most people only use a few skills in their jobs. The extremely broad and expansive base of knowledge that obtaining a college degree requires is only any good for a select few professions. Yet, college was and is still sold as a necessity and a path to almost guaranteed success. Some people just make bad decisions with higher education, but most of the blame falls on the way college is presented and designed in my opinion.Higher education should shift towards specific job skills.

Jakebert
01-16-2012, 09:17 AM
Higher education is based almost entirely in specific skills at this point, especially if your degree is concentrated in engineering, business, or medicine. Those degrees largely cut out most general education classes, instead focusing on trade stuff. I was a business major for 2 years before getting bored with it and switching, and I can tell you that the reason I got bored is that it all felt like job training that I could get after college without wasting my money on it. The only majors that still really focus on "academic knowledge" are liberal arts majors and law.

I actually think that engineering and other more specific majors could use more general education classes, specifically in areas that would increase writing skills. I've been president of a student organization for the past year, and one thing I have to require is written reports by members on their projects. And every time I get one submitted by any engineer, it seems like it was written by a 6 year old, because all they do is math and job training.

Still, I think college offers a great opportunity for people to become well-rounded in a variety of different areas. I know I'm in a minority, but I think that all students should be required to take a hard science, a political science, a law class, some kind of economics class, a basic accounting class, and a philosophy class in order to increase at least some basic knowledge. Students in majors that require this usually tend to come out of their college experience like this are better prepared to be successful in the working world because they have a larger frame of reference than those who simply get job training.

Also, on a side note, I've been talking to a friend of mine who is an education major and I've lost all faith in the education system in this country. His final exam last semester in an education class was to make a shoebox diorama about himself. This was junior level class.

ad8
01-16-2012, 10:09 AM
It seems to me that most people only use a few skills in their jobs. The extremely broad and expansive base of knowledge that obtaining a college degree requires is only any good for a select few professions.
Naturally, you will only need a few skills out of those that you learn in college because it prepares you for a handful of different fields in which you might work later. I like this because it was very hard for me to even decide on a general field of studies after high school graduation and I did not want to completely specify myself in some profession right away and first of all get a good overview of possible destinations. Also, I support Jakebert's opinion on being better prepared to be successful in the working world if you acquire a greater frame of reference in college.

Little_Miss_1565
01-16-2012, 10:51 AM
My liberal arts degree prepared me awesomely for my work in marketing, and even more awesomely for my side-job doing paralegal work.

jacknife737
01-16-2012, 10:59 AM
It depends on your concentration. Jakebert's pretty correct in saying that majors such as medicine, engineering and even business are pretty much solely focused on developing workforce skills.

Liberal arts, and social sciences are the ones that continue to embrace the "general education" mindset; and so they should. If one seems upset that their English program isn't as "practical" as they would like it to be, then switch to business.

I'd also echo Jakebert's thoughts about the need to include a more "general education" aspect into certain majors such as business. When i was an undergrad, most of my housmates/friends were either engineers/business/economics majors and a good chunk of them couldn't form a competent sentence on paper to save their life. Not to mention, although they were certainly very good at parroting back what their proffs told them during lectures, they seemed to lack a fair amount of critical thinking skills.

The nature of the working world is changing anyways. The concept of a "career" is almost extinct. Young people these days will most likely have to experience several different jobs during their adult lifetime; it's not such a bad thing to pick up a more diverse educational background.

killer_queen
01-16-2012, 11:19 AM
As an engineering student I often wish we had more general education classes. Since we didn't I signed for several creative writing programs and took a few literature classes. And guess what, I was the only engineering student there. There isn't even one engineering student who is complaining about it, they think what they are taking is enough for them for their whole life. I don't know where they got it but they all think that they will get to have very fancy careers in ten years. Most of them don't even know how to talk, or write an e-mail in a formal way. Sometimes I think this is done on purpose. An engineer who reads, thinks and questions why he must be spending most of his life in a box, is not an ideal one of course.

bighead384
01-16-2012, 02:10 PM
A broad base of knowledge CAN help people throughout their career, but most of the time, I think it won't. I don't even think most people are ambitious enough to do more than be a competent worker in their field. Meanwhile, many people are wasting time and money on courses that won't do them any good.

All degrees should be closely examined to ensure that there's a bare bones minimum of only necessary, practical courses. I don't think we're even close to that point, and it's a real shame when you consider what people have to go through with the time, energy, and debt of college.

For me, it's a simple matter of having policies that are practical and effective for the largest amount of people. Just because you can think of a few exceptions or college worked well for you personally doesn't mean you should ignore all the other unnecessary crap going on. I would say that while some majors have shifted to be more practical for the modern world, there's still a lot that could be done that would save people time, money, and frustration.

Jakebert
01-16-2012, 04:44 PM
I'm not disagreeing that there's unnecessary crap going on in college, trust me. I mentioned that the reason I switched from business to political science was that I felt like that major was a complete waste of time where all I learned was corporate slang and how to read books by snake oil salesmen posing as corporate consultants.

But again, I think having a broad base of knowledge in more areas than just your career expands you ability to think critically and creatively, which aids in the kind of problem solving that most jobs require. For example, my school requires everyone take a basic world history class that covers the beginning of society up until the 1600s. While I don't remember a lot of factual information from that class, it did widen my perspective and teach me important skills when it comes to reading large amounts of text and summarizing that information into easy to read, concise papers. This is a skill that pretty much anyone working in a political or corporate setting needs, in order to write briefs and reports for bosses. It also taught me how to read things that I may not understand right away- writings in dialects of English that I'm unfamiliar with- which translates to reading documents about subjects I'm less educated on yet still being able to understand and explain them. All of these skills are transferable to the real world, even if not super apparent from the get go.

The issue with simple job training is that it creates drones, not thinkers. And most high paying jobs need people with the ability to think, not people who can simply perform a base task. Different types of classes challenge you to think in different ways. These classes aren't just about base knowledge or trivia, which I admit is largely pointless, and on a side note, is how high school classes are run and a large reason why I think high school educations are worthless.

bighead384
01-16-2012, 07:17 PM
I'm not disagreeing that there's unnecessary crap going on in college, trust me. I mentioned that the reason I switched from business to political science
I'm sorry, but political science is one of the worst majors as far as offering courses that are practical for the workforce. Try getting a job with just a PoliSci degree.


But again, I think having a broad base of knowledge in more areas than just your career expands you ability to think critically and creatively, which aids in the kind of problem solving that most jobs require. For example, my school requires everyone take a basic world history class that covers the beginning of society up until the 1600s. While I don't remember a lot of factual information from that class, it did widen my perspective and teach me important skills when it comes to reading large amounts of text and summarizing that information into easy to read, concise papers. This is a skill that pretty much anyone working in a political or corporate setting needs, in order to write briefs and reports for bosses. It also taught me how to read things that I may not understand right away- writings in dialects of English that I'm unfamiliar with- which translates to reading documents about subjects I'm less educated on yet still being able to understand and explain them. All of these skills are transferable to the real world, even if not super apparent from the get go.
But why not just have classes that have the intent of teaching these skills?


These classes aren't just about base knowledge or trivia, which I admit is largely pointless, and on a side note, is how high school classes are run and a large reason why I think high school educations are worthless
High school should be the extent of the whole "base knowledge" thing.

Jakebert
01-16-2012, 07:47 PM
I'm sorry, but political science is one of the worst majors as far as offering courses that are practical for the workforce. Try getting a job with just a PoliSci degree.


But why not just have classes that have the intent of teaching these skills?


High school should be the extent of the whole "base knowledge" thing.

Your first point depends on where you go. Some colleges teach political science as entirely theoretical, some mix theory with practical job training. I am in the latter (my school is the only one in my state to offer a degree in Applied Politics, which is based heavily on job training and internships), and have a job lined up for after graduation with my city chamber of commerce thanks to work I did outside of the classroom. Any degree can be something with networking, internships, and good professional skills. Plus "getting a job" and "workforce training" are two entirely different things. I know tons of engineers, business majors, and nurses who did nothing but job train and didn't get jobs out of college. They were trained well but didn't put in the extra work outside of the classroom to get a job. I do agree that lots of PoliSci majors are unable to go out into the workforce, but you could argue that of any major.

And those classes do have the intent of teaching those skills. In fact, most professors will openly admit to this on the first day of class. Also most college administrators who plan classes also admit this. I've only taken a few general education classes in college where the teacher didn't try to demonstrate some kind of transferable skill gained from the class.

I agree that high school should do a lot of legwork in base knowledge, but the simple fact is that the United States' education system in terms of high school and below is an absolutely terrible system that's built entirely on standardized test scores. And, to carry with that, the system has no balls when it comes to kicking students out who don't give enough of a fuck to learn, but instead they just make the tests easier so everyone can pass, feel special, and help the school increase it's federal funding. College has to make up in that area because high schools focus entirely on math, graph reading (or, what they call science), and writing. And they don't even teach professional writing, but creative writing, which means nothing in the real world.

bighead384
01-18-2012, 07:51 AM
Your first point depends on where you go. Some colleges teach political science as entirely theoretical, some mix theory with practical job training. I am in the latter (my school is the only one in my state to offer a degree in Applied Politics, which is based heavily on job training and internships), and have a job lined up for after graduation with my city chamber of commerce thanks to work I did outside of the classroom. Any degree can be something with networking, internships, and good professional skills. Plus "getting a job" and "workforce training" are two entirely different things. I know tons of engineers, business majors, and nurses who did nothing but job train and didn't get jobs out of college. They were trained well but didn't put in the extra work outside of the classroom to get a job. I do agree that lots of PoliSci majors are unable to go out into the workforce, but you could argue that of any major.

And those classes do have the intent of teaching those skills. In fact, most professors will openly admit to this on the first day of class. Also most college administrators who plan classes also admit this. I've only taken a few general education classes in college where the teacher didn't try to demonstrate some kind of transferable skill gained from the class.

I agree that high school should do a lot of legwork in base knowledge, but the simple fact is that the United States' education system in terms of high school and below is an absolutely terrible system that's built entirely on standardized test scores. And, to carry with that, the system has no balls when it comes to kicking students out who don't give enough of a fuck to learn, but instead they just make the tests easier so everyone can pass, feel special, and help the school increase it's federal funding. College has to make up in that area because high schools focus entirely on math, graph reading (or, what they call science), and writing. And they don't even teach professional writing, but creative writing, which means nothing in the real world.
It's nice to see that your college has taken steps to make a PoliSci a more practical degree for the workforce, but at the same time, I feel you're also making my point for me. You say that your school is the only one in the state that does this "Applied Politics" program. It's a shame few other schools offer this. And that's really my point: Wayyyy too many schools are dropping the ball on making their degrees more practical, as well as trying to sell less useful degrees as a guaranteed path to success. Also, yeah it's nice that you do extra curricular stuff so you're set when you graduate, but some people have to work many hours as well as being a full time student and can't handle anything else (which I don't think is unreasonable). For all the money and time people put into it, a college degree ought to be more sufficient in proving that a person is skilled enough for the workforce on it's own.

Your experience seems much, much different than mine. Very few college courses I've taken seem to have the intent of teaching workforce skills. I don't even know what else to say than that. Perhaps someone else could share their experience?

I generally agree with what you're saying about high school educations. I'm sure colleges design their courses around the average high school education, so there's no doubt that if high school could change it's focus areas to be more effective, college would be more effective as well.

Jakebert
01-18-2012, 12:37 PM
I do realize that my college experience is different than most, and it's one of the reason why I choose my school when applying for colleges. It's famous for being fairly ahead of the curve in job training. If you follow the curriculum in almost any major (outside of history, sociology, psych, and art) you'll have a job waiting out of college because internships and networking are built into the curriculum, and my school has a partnership with dozens of corporations and employers (both government and private) who look for graduates from my school. I agree that I'm lucky and not all schools work that way. But I still argue that I've gotten those opportunities alongside the more theoretical, academic side of college, which has also benefited me just as much as the applied stuff.

As for your point about working, I've always heard that excuse, and honestly find it kind of bullshit. I know tons of people who work full time, go to class full time, and still take the time to network, do internships, and join student orgs that offer resources and experience. Plus, once you hit your junior year, you should be able to find some kind of entry level work or paid internship in your area of expertise, which is way more valuable than classroom learning. I know quite a few people that were working a "real" job their senior year in addition to taking classes. Most programs offer ways to balance all of this, it just takes time, patience, and effort on your end to take advantage of it.

Plus, if you're any good at your major, you'll be able to apply for tons of scholarships. One of the best kept secrets of colleges is that each school has a listing of potential scholarships that almost no students actually apply for, and as long as you have above a 3.0, you're going to get some money. I've basically gone to college for free since my sophomore year because I've played the system.

Harleyquiiinn
01-19-2012, 12:52 AM
My experience might be a little bit different because in France, and I believe it's different in the US, you choose your subject right after high school. I chose law and all I did for 5 years was studying law on various subjects. The only exception was History... of law.

But here's what I think. During these 5 years, most of the subjects I studied, I don't use and probably never will. (Except maybe the 5th year when you are really in your speciality).

Do I think it's a bad thing ? no. Because I think that the most important thing college thaught me is a way of thinking, reasoning and demonstrating.

Job skills ? I learnt with Internship and I absolutely don't think that college could have taught me that. You can't learn to become practical with theory. You have to do the things.

Little_Miss_1565
01-20-2012, 12:36 PM
Possibly relevant to y'all's interests: NPR piece on how a liberal arts education is increasingly valued in the workplace. http://www.npr.org/2012/01/16/145309326/liberal-arts-degrees-an-asset-at-some-companies

bighead384
01-23-2012, 12:10 PM
Possibly relevant to y'all's interests: NPR piece on how a liberal arts education is increasingly valued in the workplace. http://www.npr.org/2012/01/16/145309326/liberal-arts-degrees-an-asset-at-some-companies
I read this article and checked out some of the comments. Someone posted this:


It's critical for liberal arts colleges to close the gap between the liberal arts and professional studies. At The College of Idaho, where I work, we just launched a new curriculum (called PEAK) designed to do this by having every student obtain a major and three minors spread across 1) fine arts and humanities, 2) natural sciences and mathematics, 3) social sciences and history, and 4) a professional field. We believe that combination of a broad liberal arts education with specialization in multiple fields will help students develop the versatility that companies like ConAgra need.

I like how this program allows students to benefit from the mind expansion and skills that a Liberal Arts degree gives you, but is also designed to make you immediately marketable to employers in the professional field. We can't just focus on the benefits of a liberal arts degree and pretend that these benefits will be realized to the same extent by different people with different aptitudes for learning.

For most people, when you get out of college the immediate goal is to get an entry level, "foot-in-the-door" type job. This way, you make money and continue to learn through workplace experience. To achieve this, your college degree needs to serve as an appropriate credential to employers right after you graduate. By shifting the focus slightly to professional field studies, this is achieved.

bighead384
01-23-2012, 03:10 PM
As for your point about working, I've always heard that excuse, and honestly find it kind of bullshit. I know tons of people who work full time, go to class full time, and still take the time to network, do internships, and join student orgs that offer resources and experience. Plus, once you hit your junior year, you should be able to find some kind of entry level work or paid internship in your area of expertise, which is way more valuable than classroom learning. I know quite a few people that were working a "real" job their senior year in addition to taking classes. Most programs offer ways to balance all of this, it just takes time, patience, and effort on your end to take advantage of it.
You're being unrealistic here as far as what is doable for most people. I would say most people can't pull this off, or if they do, their grades would suffer as a result. Although I would say there's no excuse not to be working upwards of about 20 hours.

Most people don't go to school and work full-time, and join organizations, AND maintain their grades. AND have any significant amount of free time or a social life. There's a reason.

Hate to get (sort of) off topic, but it just annoys me when someone acts like what they're doing is the rule, when really it's the exception.

bighead384
01-23-2012, 03:23 PM
I'm going to guess that it's going to be implied that you either are doing what Jakebert does, or you're one of those rich idiots that doesn't do anything but take classes. No in between. lol.

Jakebert
01-23-2012, 04:00 PM
I wouldn't say it's not doable for most people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's easy, but all it took was hard work on my end. I worked full time freshman year to pay for it, while maintaining grades and was eventually able to make a profit off of my grades. Again, I'm not saying I'm the norm here, but it's not as rare as you're making it out to be. It's just long-term planning (working during your early years of college when classes are the easiest) and hard work on both employment and scholastic ends.

The more I think about it, though, I think my biggest issue with colleges is that most state schools lack any sense of prestige and balls when it comes to kicking students out for under performing. I know it's mostly financial, with these colleges trying to keep money coming in. But at the same time, students like this kill the entire process and hold the rest of us up.

Little_Miss_1565
01-23-2012, 04:47 PM
For most people, when you get out of college the immediate goal is to get an entry level, "foot-in-the-door" type job. This way, you make money and continue to learn through workplace experience. To achieve this, your college degree needs to serve as an appropriate credential to employers right after you graduate. By shifting the focus slightly to professional field studies, this is achieved.

I can't think of a single person I've ever known that's gotten a job because of the education line of their resume. In fact, I'd go so far as to say no one will hand you a job because of where you went to school -- douchebags and ninnies get Harvard degrees just like the smart people, after all. I got jobs because of the internships I did while in college and the relationships I built in that process.

bighead384
01-23-2012, 08:46 PM
I wouldn't say it's not doable for most people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's easy, but all it took was hard work on my end. I worked full time freshman year to pay for it, while maintaining grades and was eventually able to make a profit off of my grades. Again, I'm not saying I'm the norm here, but it's not as rare as you're making it out to be. It's just long-term planning (working during your early years of college when classes are the easiest) and hard work on both employment and scholastic ends.

The more I think about it, though, I think my biggest issue with colleges is that most state schools lack any sense of prestige and balls when it comes to kicking students out for under performing. I know it's mostly financial, with these colleges trying to keep money coming in. But at the same time, students like this kill the entire process and hold the rest of us up.
Well, to start, you've done what most people don't do. So perhaps it's harder for you to tell what most people can and can't do. I shouldn't claim to know exactly what people are capable of, but I will say I definitely wouldn't think less of someone if they told me a full-time job and school and student groups/etc. is too much for them.

I don't know exactly what your theory is with colleges kicking more students out. Having said that, I think that the theory behind why liberal arts degrees are designed the way they are is very elitist, and only pertains to and benefits elite intellectuals. If you have a special aptitude for learning things, then there are institutions that accommodate that. However, more practical degrees would accommodate the common person better.


I can't think of a single person I've ever known that's gotten a job because of the education line of their resume. In fact, I'd go so far as to say no one will hand you a job because of where you went to school -- douchebags and ninnies get Harvard degrees just like the smart people, after all. I got jobs because of the internships I did while in college and the relationships I built in that process.
For this to be true, everyone who has gone to college and succeeded in the workforce will have done an internship and been excellent at networking. Not the case. Also, this opinion gets at my fundamental point: That many college degrees ought to at least somewhat shift in their content towards being something that makes you marketable in the workforce.

Little_Miss_1565
01-23-2012, 09:53 PM
For this to be true, everyone who has gone to college and succeeded in the workforce will have done an internship and been excellent at networking. Not the case. Also, this opinion gets at my fundamental point: That many college degrees ought to at least somewhat shift in their content towards being something that makes you marketable in the workforce.

Well, that's the thing -- more and more people are getting jobs based on relationships and networking and industry knowledge gained in the course of internships. Ever sent out a bazillion cold resumes to job listings online and gotten a call back on one?

jacknife737
01-23-2012, 11:34 PM
I don't know exactly what your theory is with colleges kicking more students out. Having said that, I think that the theory behind why liberal arts degrees are designed the way they are is very elitist, and only pertains to and benefits elite intellectuals. If you have a special aptitude for learning things, then there are institutions that accommodate that. However, more practical degrees would accommodate the common person better.


For this to be true, everyone who has gone to college and succeeded in the workforce will have done an internship and been excellent at networking. Not the case. Also, this opinion gets at my fundamental point: That many college degrees ought to at least somewhat shift in their content towards being something that makes you marketable in the workforce.

I don't really think your main problem lies with the course design of most liberal arts programs. Their focus is providing students with a wealth of knowledge on a variety of subjects while fostering things like creative and original thought. If you start trying to turn them into trade schools, it diultes from the entire purpose of a liberal arts education....

Speaking of which if you want something more practical, then why not go to trade school? Get an apprenticeship? Or even switch majors to a seemingly more marketable degree such as say financial accounting?

But like others have alluded to, education simply isn't enough these days to give you a total edge in the job market; the focus is on networking and internships.

SkunkIt
01-23-2012, 11:49 PM
I stopped reading, after you used "stupidly" in the title. XD

XYlophonetreeZ
01-24-2012, 05:36 PM
I stopped reading, after you used "stupidly" in the title. XD
^unnecessary comma

^unnecessary comment

Llamas
01-24-2012, 05:51 PM
This thread is dumb. Bighead, you're acting like a degree should be a sure-fire way to get a specific job, and prepare you with the specific knowledge you need for that specific job. The university system would fall flat on its face if it tried to divide everything into paths for every job-type and was that specified.

College degrees in the US don't require a person to be all that smart - only around average. The smarts come in when it's time to figure out how to use that degree and make it work for you. I got a liberal arts degree in something that people consider to be pretty damn useless. I took a shitload of classes I didn't need, for fun and for the sake of knowledge. I graduated with nearly 3x as many credits as I needed, and I have zero regrets about it.

That "useless" degree full of non-specific information got me where I am and put me in a position where I can country-hop and pretty much work wherever I want. Like Sarah, I made a degree that people like to dismiss work for me. And I'm super glad I didn't take a program in college that would've prepared me for a particular job, because when I started college, I wanted to be a botanist. And I'm 100% glad that's not my job now.

Edit: I didn't read most of this thread. Lots of tl;drs in there and I'm super tired. Forgive me if the thread has shifted direction since the posts I did read.

bighead384
01-24-2012, 06:22 PM
Hey, if it worked for you AND Sarah, then I'm convinced. Ideas of change should be thrown out the window.

Also, the popular notion of "useless degrees" came out of nowhere, for no reason. People were just being assholes for the hell of it.

Harleyquiiinn
01-25-2012, 01:04 AM
A degree is never useless. It can only be a bad investment. Considering you guys pay for it :D

Anyway, these degrees exist because of a demand. Why should college stop teaching stuff that people want to learn ?

I think it all depends of your point of view of why college is necessary. It seems to me that you don't want college to educate you but to train you.

Little_Miss_1565
01-25-2012, 10:14 AM
Technical schools are built for training. They rule in that regard. Colleges and universities are for education.

Llamas
01-25-2012, 02:12 PM
A degree is never useless. It can only be a bad investment. Considering you guys pay for it :D

Anyway, these degrees exist because of a demand. Why should college stop teaching stuff that people want to learn ?

I think it all depends of your point of view of why college is necessary. It seems to me that you don't want college to educate you but to train you.


Technical schools are built for training. They rule in that regard. Colleges and universities are for education.

I agree with both comments. What bighead is requesting here is actually what seems to be happening in a lot of universities, and it's very sad. A lot of schools are thinning arts programs and putting all the money into business and engineering faculties. If you don't want a university degree that teaches you but doesn't train you for a specific job, then don't get that degree. I'm a fan of options, and I hate to see them taken away.

T-6005
01-25-2012, 03:31 PM
Part of the error is assuming that being handed your Bachelor's degree in a field makes you competent for a high-level position in that field. It's a tendency that you find repeated over and over in undergraduates - the idea of 'four years and then I get fat on the spoils.'

A Bachelor's degree is a competency, and while it's true that depending on the university that competency can shift to say various things about you, no one is required to assume a high level of proficiency in something simply because you have been handed a degree - what they assume is an adequate level of preparation. It's up to you to turn that preparation into opportunity.

And while programs everywhere could certainly use some work - in some cases, a lot of work - in creating job candidates who are not only industry-prepared but also technically experienced, I feel that many schools have overcompensated, and now pump out thousands upon thousands of engineering students with hundreds of man-hours who are just raring to get out of the gate and into the job that they will hold for the rest of their lives, because they literally have no other skills.

I don't think bighead is wrong, necessarily - postsecondary education has an unfortunate tendency to gloss over the fact that if you do barely any work in the process of getting your bachelor's, you'll get just as much out of it as you would a regular piece of paper. Perhaps that's what needs to change - the expectation that a degree stating that you are more-than-basic (congratulations on your BA in English) is somehow enough by itself.

And I say this as a holder of a useless degree, a BA in Social Anthropology, and as a Masters student in the same discipline. Jobs aren't exactly out there for the choosing in this field, particularly if you are looking to integrate an academic department at a university - but another part of the process is how you represent what you have built during the acquiry. The point isn't that at the end of my program I'll have the degree - the point is that I'll have, through the choice of a thesis, proved that I can conceptualize and complete a rigorous public research project with a high degree of self-determination and autonomy. That's just the degree itself - I have affiliations to research institutes, scholarship credentials and completely non-school related work experience which complement my degree.

Little_Miss_1565
01-25-2012, 05:38 PM
Once again, Thibault knocks it out of the proverbial park.

The other thing is that the average job lasts 4 to 5 years these days. People just don't seem to be spending the rest of their lives at companies the way they used to. I've switched career paths in the same industry already, and I'm 27. If I had gone to college and received a degree in something more specialized than English, I'm not sure I would have been able to do that.

I later went back to school to learn web design and programming, while working full time, in what amounts to a technical school. I much preferred that to getting a BS in Computer Science, even though it took longer and cost more.

Isolated Fury
01-26-2012, 10:20 AM
Another problem with post-college life is how we were reared.

All my life, my parents told me to go to college. "You don't want to end up pumping gas, do you?!" Well here's the problem. Everyone's parents said that. And everyone's parents were working jobs that didn't require a degree. Think about how many of your childhood friends' parents had a degree. Not too many. But you didn't see them all turning to the "poor house." We were all scared into going to college out of a fear of manual labor.

Well it was either a fear of manual labor or some sort of egotistical mindset we were given. I have too many friends to count that graduated college and are currently unemployed. Why? I just left a job a month ago and had another lined up before I left. It's because they're all "too good" for menial positions. That is ludicrous. I have a metric shit-ton of respect for someone that gets a job at McDonald's after completing college. Good for him. He knows he has to earn his money.

I don't know exactly where I was going with this idea, but I'll end it like this: whether or not you go to college, grow some balls and get a job. You're not serving society or even yourself any purpose by being a holier-than-thou-art dickbag.

Jakebert
01-26-2012, 10:33 AM
I agree with that 100%. I spent ages 14-19 working on a farm, cleaning up cow shit, bailing hay, and building fences for my spending money. So I get really pissed off when I see these suburban kids who all worked at the mall or something, or worse didn't have jobs, complain when they don't get a management job right out of college. And, on a side note for a different thread, I really hate people that bitch about working retail as if it's some horrible torture that only they can understand. I would have killed for a retail job when I was in high school.

My girlfriend's best friend is currently working as a secretary, despite having a degree, because she's quite 3 jobs in her field because they "weren't utilizing her degree" enough. Aside from the fact that she took a step down by quitting, just the massive sense of entitlement that statement implies really bothers me.

bighead384
01-27-2012, 08:51 AM
As I see it, most jobs in the professional field that liberal arts majors end up with tend to be typical monotonous office crap that, relatively speaking, doesn't take all that much thought. I would say that is a good description of the majority of jobs in the professional field. Now, if you make it to an administrative position or something else higher up, the mind expansion and general education that college teaches will become more applicable. But what I'm saying is, as I see it, the majority of people are not helped by the expansive, lengthy, and expansive general education in liberal arts degrees. If these people had a choice to pick a more practical version of their major, like the PEAK program I mentioned in an earlier post, I think that would be better for everyone. If my perception of the job market is a reality, then liberal arts majors should shift to fit this reality, if only slightly.

If liberal arts degree just became a bit more practical, I doubt it would have some sort of effect where an individual is now unable to adapt to a new job the way they would be if they if their degree focus more on mind expansion and general education.

Little_Miss_1565
01-27-2012, 12:51 PM
As I see it, most jobs in the professional field that liberal arts majors end up with tend to be typical monotonous office crap that, relatively speaking, doesn't take all that much thought. I would say that is a good description of the majority of jobs in the professional field.

Considering you have neither a liberal arts degree nor an office job, I'm curious where you get this idea of the jobs that liberal arts majors are working.

bighead384
01-29-2012, 08:35 AM
Considering you have neither a liberal arts degree nor an office job, I'm curious where you get this idea of the jobs that liberal arts majors are working.

That's actually not true. And right now I don't have an office job, but I've had one before at a law firm. I wasn't impressed by any of my higher ups. Talking with clients over the phone was a bit of an art, but the rest was all bullshit office work.

There are so many jobs that don't require any special thinking abilities. This can't be stressed enough. Sure, you could make the case that college can help somewhat, but it doesn't help enough to justify the cost of college in so many cases. The whole thing is based on theories that don't apply to the majority of people. That's what pisses me off. College is designed as if everyone is going to have jobs where they needed this ultra expansive base of theoretical knowledge. No. That is not a reality for most people.

Forget about the intellectual theories and just look at things like a normal person. College is so much bullshit.

Harleyquiiinn
01-30-2012, 02:16 AM
That's actually not true. And right now I don't have an office job, but I've had one before at a law firm. I wasn't impressed by any of my higher ups. Talking with clients over the phone was a bit of an art, but the rest was all bullshit office work.




http://images.alloforum.com/smilies/themes/classique/lol.gif

Please, tell me, what job exactly are you reffering to ? Lawyer ? :D

Isolated Fury
01-30-2012, 05:40 AM
There are so many jobs that don't require any special thinking abilities. This can't be stressed enough. Sure, you could make the case that college can help somewhat, but it doesn't help enough to justify the cost of college in so many cases. The whole thing is based on theories that don't apply to the majority of people. That's what pisses me off. College is designed as if everyone is going to have jobs where they needed this ultra expansive base of theoretical knowledge. No. That is not a reality for most people.
This may seem like I'm playing both sides of the field here, but I disagree with that. Sure, you can get a decent, well-paying job without a college education. But there ARE some jobs out there that kind of... require that kind of stuff. Like a lawyer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we'd all appreciate having someone fight a case for us that has the knowledge and certification to do so. I want my lawyer to be able to think outside of the box. I want him to take an abstract thought and turn it into a case-winning statement. And this is coming from someone that is currently involved in a custody battle.

So yeah, you do need to go to college... as long as you're picking the right profession to prepare yourself for.

bighead384
01-30-2012, 07:55 AM
This may seem like I'm playing both sides of the field here, but I disagree with that. Sure, you can get a decent, well-paying job without a college education. But there ARE some jobs out there that kind of... require that kind of stuff. Like a lawyer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we'd all appreciate having someone fight a case for us that has the knowledge and certification to do so. I want my lawyer to be able to think outside of the box. I want him to take an abstract thought and turn it into a case-winning statement. And this is coming from someone that is currently involved in a custody battle.

There's no denying that there are plenty of jobs out there that require an extensive education. I'm just suggesting that, less of them do than we are lead to believe. Plus, lawyers gain most of the knowledge that they really need from law school.

Harleyquiiinn
01-30-2012, 08:04 AM
There's no denying that there are plenty of jobs out there that require an extensive education. I'm just suggesting that, less of them do than we are lead to believe. Plus, lawyers gain most of the knowledge that they really need from law school.

again, lol.

Law isn't about knowledge. (I mean, yes, ok, for the basic stuff maybe). Law changes all the time, so there is no point learning it... It's about learning how to think and analyse what you have in front of you. And that doesn't come fast. 3 years of law school is barely enough. After 5 years, I could start to be a little good. 3 years of practice and I can only say that... I still have a lot to learn... But hey, what can I teach you, you had an office job in a law firm. Obviously, you know what you are talking about ;)

bighead384
01-30-2012, 08:11 AM
again, lol.

Law isn't about knowledge. (I mean, yes, ok, for the basic stuff maybe). Law changes all the time, so there is no point learning it... It's about learning how to think and analyse what you have in front of you. And that doesn't come fast. 3 years of law school is barely enough. After 5 years, I could start to be a little good. 3 years of practice and I can only say that... I still have a lot to learn... But hey, what can I teach you, you had an office job in a law firm. Obviously, you know what you are talking about ;)
So what is your point as far as college policy? You're saying that law school should be longer? That's pretty irrelevant to my original point.

Harleyquiiinn
01-30-2012, 08:21 AM
So what is your point as far as college policy? You're saying that law school should be longer? That's pretty irrelevant to my original point.

As I stated in my first message, in France, law school is just longer. Five years is a common time, and as I said, I think it's good. After 3 years, I simply wouldn't have been able to be as good as I was when I finished.

As I also said, I had to do some internships to learn how to be practical. But that's what Bar School is for.

College => education. Taught me how to reason in a decent way.
Bar School + internship => training. Taught me where I have to go in the courthouse and write an act that can actually convince a judge.

That took me about 7 years and honestly, I don't think that any of these years was wasted.

I don't have a general opinion on college. I think it's here to educate and not to train, and it's good this way. If people choose a degree that won't lead them to something really specific that's their choice. You shouldn't change everything just because our world wants uber-trained people in very specialized stuff. That's definitely not my dream society.

Besides, and also as I said before, I don't get how you plan to teach practical stuff with theory, really...

But here, College is basically free, so it's not considered as an investment as much as it is in the US.

SkunkIt
02-18-2012, 12:09 AM
^unnecessary comma

^unnecessary comment

Good to see you again, so what have you been up to in the past five years?

I've done some tutoring with college students in their MLA format essays myself. Admittedly, my commas have a mind of their own. What made your reply to my comment any more neccesary? Give me a hug you old bat <3

Baldwin
02-18-2012, 06:24 AM
Heh, bighead went to college. Who's the big-city intellectual now?

Llamas
02-18-2012, 08:46 AM
Heh, bighead went to college. Who's the big-city intellectual now?

So it would seem. However, making a thread about how STUPIDLY college is designed, he's obviously putting himself above the rest of us intellectual sheep who just eat up every word professors and advisers and the government give us and blindly worship educational institutions. Plus, apparently big-city intellectuals have to get Liberal Arts degrees.

Sad part is, I could totally see him saying what I just said, but without the sarcasm.

mario_spaghettio
02-18-2012, 09:29 AM
lol @ liberal arts degrees. Be careful not to color outside the lines you sheep.

Hey Man Where's Everybody
02-18-2012, 10:07 AM
lol @ liberal arts degrees. Be careful not to color outside the lines you sheep.

Location: Angry America

Llamas
02-18-2012, 10:29 AM
Still lovin' my Liberal Arts degree. Love my job. :) I'm a BCI for life, yo.

bighead384
02-18-2012, 11:20 AM
Still sore from the whuppin' you took in the other thread?

XYlophonetreeZ
02-18-2012, 12:00 PM
Still sore from the whuppin' you took in the other thread?
What is a "whuppin'," Cletus? Is that what you dish out when you prod your cattle and beat your woman out in the mighty big open country of South Jersey? Is a "whuppin'" how you gain your small-town non-intellectual credibility?

bighead384
02-18-2012, 12:16 PM
"We're in a state of vague American values and anti-intellectual pride" -David Cross, in his letter to Larry The Cable Guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDimQTJMjB0

LOL.

XYlophonetreeZ
02-18-2012, 12:26 PM
Isn't that contrary to your oft-stated view, Cletus?

Llamas
02-18-2012, 02:21 PM
Still sore from the whuppin' you took in the other thread?

? Where did a take a "whuppin'" (wtf is that?) and what was it? Couldn't have been a very good "whuppin'" if I don't remember it...

mario_spaghettio
02-18-2012, 02:40 PM
? Where did a take a "whuppin'" (wtf is that?) and what was it? Couldn't have been a very good "whuppin'" if I don't remember it...or maybe.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repressed_memory

SkunkIt
02-18-2012, 10:19 PM
Isn't that contrary to your oft-stated view, Cletus?

Serious question, are you Henry?

XYlophonetreeZ
02-19-2012, 11:53 AM
Serious question, are you Henry?
I do not know this Henry you speak of. Should I?

calichix
02-26-2012, 11:26 AM
unless you're a tard, education doesn't have to be this sinister indoctrination thing. it's about exposure to new ideas and information.

http://blip.tv/learning-without-frontiers/noam-chomsky-the-purpose-of-education-5925460

ps. WHY do white people think the name Cletus is *so* funny?

XYlophonetreeZ
02-26-2012, 12:47 PM
Um, I don't think you should be talking about cliched predilections of "white people" after posting a Noam Chomsky link.

And the Cletus thing was from another thread in which bighead obnoxiously and repeatedly trashed "big city intellectuals" and kept calling 1565 "Daria" even though no one was laughing. Coneman responded with comparing bighead to Cletus from the Simpsons. I won't link the thread because there was so much douchebaggery in it.

calichix
02-26-2012, 01:16 PM
is it way cooler to bar myself from the intelligent things noam chomsky has to say because other people have noticed that he's intelligent?

XYlophonetreeZ
02-26-2012, 01:44 PM
No, that's why I didn't say "You shouldn't post Noam Chomsky links." The calling out "white people" thing just gave me a case of the lolz.