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Llamas
02-10-2012, 12:39 PM
Around New Years, I started dating this guy - the first time I'd dated a guy in years, actually - and it seemed to be going pretty well. He's intelligent, ambitious, soft-spoken, very nice, and generous... but something wasn't clicking for me (inb4 lesbian jokez). I knew there was something that didn't sit right, but I couldn't put my finger on it... but I knew it was stopping me from really being into him, or being excited about seeing him.

Last Sunday, we spent the better part of the day together. We went for a late lunch, came to my apartment to watch a movie, and then went to a super bowl party around 10pm. In that time, I realized exactly what the problem was: the guy is kinda homophobic and sexist.

Now, I described it all to a few friends of mine, and some of them were like "Eh, he doesn't sound that bad... you might be jumping to label him those things." Someone else said that he could understand me not being okay with that, considering how "passionate" I am about my feminist beliefs.

Well, the homophobia came down to a few obnoxious comments. A friend asked if he was gonna join in going out to the gay club, and he responded in a totally serious tone, "Eh, I don't need a bunch of men grabbing my ass..." He then argued with me that it's not natural for men to be bisexual, and was clearly not comfortable with them being gay, either.

As for the sexism, he was just overly chivalrous, even after I asked him not to be. He wouldn't let me walk along the street (he had to walk near the street, with me on the inside of the sidewalk), and couldn't follow me up the stairs to my own apartment. Plus he got visibly upset when he felt his "masculinity" was in question... like when I wanted to walk to the center for lunch, but he said it was too cold and wanted to drive. He complained about him seeming weak and had to reassert his masculinity by opening the trash can for me when it was frozen shut, and then proudly announce that he'd reasserted himself.

All these details don't really matter, but the point is that to many people, I don't think these things would really be an issue, but for me, they were a total dealbreaker. I'm now in the process of figuring out how to make it clear I don't want to date him, without being like "Hey! You're a total bigot, so I don't wanna date you!!" But what I'm curious about is whether or not anyone else here has any less than typical dealbreakers. I mean, not something like a chastity ring or a violent racist. :P And would anyone stop dating someone for the reasons I did?

Al Coholic
02-10-2012, 12:58 PM
Stop. Seriously, just stop it.


It sounds like you're making assumptions and inferences about little nothings. I once worked at a place where almost all the employees and customers were gay men. (it was that district of town). I was no bigot, I applied for the job and got it. But you know what, I was still a bit uncomfortable from time to time. It felt like I was out of my element.Anyway I did fine after a while, but is it so terrible and biggoted that my god, I was a bit unnatural around the gays at first? Ofcourse not. That was my first time being immersed in gay culture. When you think about it, most straight men go their whole lives without that experience. So if you wanna play PC nazi you can, but just because someone is a little insensitive, and you're extremely sensitive(and yes, you are) does not make them bigoted.

As far as the sexism goes, can I ask your guys background? Because as someone who's been the person closing a store/office/bar more times than I can count, it wasn't just good manners to walk a girl to her car. It was more often than not policy. What you may seem to think are simple gestures are often habits. Those are especially reinforced by the fact that most men have dated atleast one girly girl in their life who, save for a small can of pepper spray, was a more or less defenseless person. These habits can be unlearned.

The point being if you have these problems you should be working it out with him, not coming here to tell us you're dating a sexist bigot and you want to break up because he opens doors and doesn't wanna go to gay clubs

(and ps, as far as gay clubs... no, not all gay men are aggresive hypersexuals, but some are, and the culture of whats acceptable has a lot lower bar than say, hitting on women. A straight man in a gay club may feel a lot like a woman in a club of nothing buy straight guys who are way too forward. You know, extremely uncomfortable?)

Al Coholic
02-10-2012, 12:59 PM
Oh and as far as the less than typical dealbreakers (the very last sentence of your thread that is the supposed topic):

country music fan.

Llamas
02-10-2012, 01:11 PM
Alright, I guess more info is necessary.

As for the homophobia, the arrogant comment about thinking you're so hot that tons of guys are gonna hit on you wasn't the main thing; it was a legit belief that it's not natural for men to be bisexual or gay. I hang out with a decent number of gay guys; I wouldn't really be comfortable bringing someone around who openly thinks that it's unnatural. Hell, I didn't even ask him his opinion; I told him that I moved here with my ex-girlfriend, and his immediate response was that it's okay for girls to be bisexual, but not for guys.

And the sexist stuff. We talked about it. He walked me home a few times, and I didn't say anything - it didn't bother me at all. But then when I tried to walk up to my own apartment and he wouldn't let me go first? Or when I was walking along the outside of the sidewalk and he moved me to the side and argued that he had to "protect" me? Well, I asked him why, and asked him if women need this. He said they do, that women need men to protect them. And when I told him that I'm a feminist, he said, "No, you're not. Don't tell me that." So I said, "Sure, I think men and women are equals." To which he yelled, "But we're not!!" I said, "We're different, sure. We're biologically different, definitely. But we're equal." And again he yelled, "No, we're not!" At that point, we entered the party, so the conversation ended.

Your examples and description are far, far more mild than this.

However, this:


(and ps, as far as gay clubs... no, not all gay men are aggresive hypersexuals, but some are, and the culture of whats acceptable has a lot lower bar than say, hitting on women. A straight man in a gay club may feel a lot like a woman in a club of nothing buy straight guys who are way too forward. You know, extremely uncomfortable?)
Everyone in a gay club is a man who's way too forward? But men in a straight club aren't too forward? It's pretty much exactly the same. My male friends don't get hit on any more in a gay club than my female friends and I do in a straight club. It's extremely uncomfortable for us, too, when hypersexual men hit on us, but we don't make such ridiculous claims and refuse to go. This includes lesbian friends of mine.

killer_queen
02-10-2012, 01:12 PM
I've never had those kinds of problems with guys I liked; probably because sexist & homophobic guys intentionally avoid me. But there had been jerks like that guy entering in my friendship circles. I have quite a good radar when it comes to them so I usually kept myself away from them even before they announced that a marriage without a wife, who can't cook a four course hot meal everyday, is a joke. But when they become vocal about it I just asked my friends to stop bringing him to our meetings. Now I know this can't be compared to breaking up with someone but it actually is not an easy thing to ask your friends to do and I have lost many friends during the process. I even stopped seeing some friends of mine whom I knew more than 10 years because I just couldn't get over some sexist stuff they said. I'm not a hardcore feminist but I think anyone who thinks that a woman should shave her legs out of self respect is able to think much more disgusting sexist stuff in the near future.

I also have to say, I don't understand why you want to stop dating him without telling him what kind of person he is. You should be clear with your reasons, maybe he can really think about his stand on these matters for the first time. Anyone who doesn't like gays because he thinks they're all dying to grab his ass must question how a women goes out everyday.

Oh and, there are always exceptions. I can tolerate any kind of racism, sexism or anything if a person is super cool. Like, you know, Wagner.

XYlophonetreeZ
02-10-2012, 01:32 PM
llamas, where are you living now? Still somewhere in Europe? I'm interested to know what cultural barriers may be at work here. In the South, chivalry is a confusing, devilish beast for guys. Dudes are generally expected to walk women back to their cars and all of that. And instead of getting mad, people bottle up their emotions and act passive-aggressively for months. I had a serious girlfriend once when I was in college. We were really comfortable with each other and I always tried to be chivalrous around her (she was from the South). Then one day, we had dinner at an on-campus restaurant that was pretty close to the bus stop. We both had separate exams to study for after that, so we went back to our respective dorms. She had to take a bus to get to hers, and I offered to walk her to the bus stop and she said no, she's fine. I said OK and went back, because I had a shitload of work to do.

About 2 weeks later, she broke up with me. When I was trying to figure out why, I talked with some of her friends and they were all like "So, what's up with you not walking her back to the bus?" like I was a terrible person. (That wasn't the only reason, she also liked another guy who turned out to be gay). So you can probably see why I might be a little hesitant to let up on chivalry, even when I do think it goes too far.

This guy you're talking about does sound kind of sexist and homophobic, though. The part about not being equal, especially- wtf? Is there a language barrier or something, and maybe he thought "equal" meant "exactly the same" and not "have equal rights and intelligence"?

I wanted to make one more point about the gay club comparison, though. You're right in that he shouldn't get hit on any more than you do at a straight club. However, it's also probably a new experience for him. I've never been at a gay club- not because I'm a closed-minded bigot, but because I've never had a reason to. And I'm sure as hell not used to getting hit on all of the time. Many women are used to being hit on everywhere- not just at clubs.

Little_Miss_1565
02-10-2012, 01:35 PM
Llamas, I would have quit that bitch faster than I could type "The 'Oh' Moment."

My guy likes opening the car door and walking between me and the street, but those are things that I don't really care about, and sometimes I just like being treated like a Lady. But if I had said "hey don't do that please" and he insisted, I'd probably be outta there, because life is too short to be in a relationship with someone who can't listen and doesn't respect your wishes.

Llamas
02-10-2012, 01:35 PM
Treez, very interesting post - thanks for sharing your experience! I'll respond with more later (just heading out the door now), but I just wanted to say that I live in Slovenia, but the guy was born and raised in Pennsylvania. He's only been living here a few years.

Isolated Fury
02-10-2012, 01:40 PM
I'd suggest continue the "We're not equal" conversation. There's no telling what he was going to say. It could have been "If someone cuts down a tree and wants one of use to carry the super heavy logs somewhere, society would say he would expect me to do it." Then again it could have been "Women really shouldn't vote. Their brains can't comprehend complex thinking like that."

Also with the the problem of chivalry, I can't help but to say to just wait it out. This is a new relationship. He's probably really excited to be able to do these things. I've been dating my girlfriend for eight months now, and I still do those things. But here's what will probably happen: comfort will set in. What people seem to forget (especially women with their puny brains that can't hold a lot of information (haha)) is that relationships settle down. Look at older couples. They're perfectly happy letting someone open the door for themselves. Chair aren't pulled out for ladies. After a while, you become friends - not boyfriend/girlfriend. And that is completely ok! Everyone thinks that this point of the relationship is closest to the end. It's not. You're supposed to be best friends with your mate.

Just be patient. If you care about him, let time work its magic.

Isolated Fury
02-10-2012, 01:43 PM
... but the guy was born and raised in Pennsylvania. He's only been living here a few years.
Now it makes sense as to why I understood all of his points.

Waaaaaait... What's his first name?

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-10-2012, 02:41 PM
Well, for the most part I agree with Al Coholic, but even a little more extreme.

As far as women not being equal to men, I think that's just bullcrap. That's not to say that I don't think men and women should have different roles in certain areas. But neither gender is greater. I think chivalry is a pretty good thing, and I attempt to be chivalrous.

I can really understand the gay club thing. I don't think I'd ever be able to get used to that. I would be unbelievably uncomfortable (and I come from Canada, the United States' gay little brother). It seems that he feels it's unnatural, and maybe he has a good argument for that. You should ask him about that. Or not. Whatever you want.

T-6005
02-10-2012, 04:03 PM
Maybe it's the way this was all put across, but I'm not at all in agreement with the 'wait and see' approach.

The entire idea that you can feel completely emasculated by the suggestion to walk somewhere to the point where opening a frozen trashcan makes it 'right' is probably the most bizarre relationship meter I've heard of. That's what threw me off the most - the way of thinking about these things as if there's some sort of redressable cosmic man-balance.

Llamas
02-10-2012, 04:40 PM
country music fan.

Oh god, if you're referring to modern mainstream country music, then I agree COMPLETELY. That would be a major killer. But I'm a special case, because a decent taste in music is pretty crucial for me. We don't have to like all the same music, but I'm immediately turned off by a huge Gaga fan, or someone who just says "anything with a good beat" when asked what kinds of music they like. Country music might be the worst, though - unless it's legit country music. Cause I dig me some Patsy Cline.


I've never had those kinds of problems with guys I liked; probably because sexist & homophobic guys intentionally avoid me. But there had been jerks like that guy entering in my friendship circles. I have quite a good radar when it comes to them so I usually kept myself away from them even before they announced that a marriage without a wife, who can't cook a four course hot meal everyday, is a joke. But when they become vocal about it I just asked my friends to stop bringing him to our meetings. Now I know this can't be compared to breaking up with someone but it actually is not an easy thing to ask your friends to do and I have lost many friends during the process. I even stopped seeing some friends of mine whom I knew more than 10 years because I just couldn't get over some sexist stuff they said. I'm not a hardcore feminist but I think anyone who thinks that a woman should shave her legs out of self respect is able to think much more disgusting sexist stuff in the near future.
I can handle having a few sexist overtones in my friend circle, but I'd never become good friends with such people. And the majority of the friends have to be non-sexist, and the person with the views I disagree with has to keep them mostly to himself. And I'm not a hardcore feminist either, but I totally agree with your last point. I *do* shave my legs, but not because I'm expected to as a woman. I do it because I hate the feeling of having hair there, and it usually looks gross on either a man or a woman, honestly.


I also have to say, I don't understand why you want to stop dating him without telling him what kind of person he is. You should be clear with your reasons, maybe he can really think about his stand on these matters for the first time. Anyone who doesn't like gays because he thinks they're all dying to grab his ass must question how a women goes out everyday.
And you know, I've thought about telling him what I think. It'll probably come up, to be honest, because we have a lot of mutual friends and see each other about once a month, anyway. So I'm sure I'll talk to him about it at some point. And I do think he's not a bad person, so maybe there's hope his views could change. However, he did say, "As I said, and I'll take this to the grave, it's just simply NOT natural for men to be bisexual." That whole "take this to the grave" thing kinda... eh.


Oh and, there are always exceptions. I can tolerate any kind of racism, sexism or anything if a person is super cool. Like, you know, Wagner.
Hahaha, you know, I just watched Valkyrie recently, and Stauffenberg was totally listening to Wagner... my first thought was, "WTF there's no way he'd be listening to him while he's trying to take down Hitler!!" Sure enough, I looked it up, and it was a total historical inaccuracy. Of course he didn't like Wagner ;) Anyway, I can appreciate some Wagner now and then (can't ever discredit Der Ring des Nibelungen), but it's sometimes hard for me to listen to him because of what a horrible person he was.


llamas, where are you living now? Still somewhere in Europe? I'm interested to know what cultural barriers may be at work here. In the South, chivalry is a confusing, devilish beast for guys. Dudes are generally expected to walk women back to their cars and all of that. And instead of getting mad, people bottle up their emotions and act passive-aggressively for months. I had a serious girlfriend once when I was in college. We were really comfortable with each other and I always tried to be chivalrous around her (she was from the South). Then one day, we had dinner at an on-campus restaurant that was pretty close to the bus stop. We both had separate exams to study for after that, so we went back to our respective dorms. She had to take a bus to get to hers, and I offered to walk her to the bus stop and she said no, she's fine. I said OK and went back, because I had a shitload of work to do.
About 2 weeks later, she broke up with me. When I was trying to figure out why, I talked with some of her friends and they were all like "So, what's up with you not walking her back to the bus?" like I was a terrible person. (That wasn't the only reason, she also liked another guy who turned out to be gay). So you can probably see why I might be a little hesitant to let up on chivalry, even when I do think it goes too far.

Okay, I'm back. To be fair here, maybe she was just upset about it because she would have liked to have spent that extra time with you, but since you so quickly accepted the "no", she felt like you weren't as invested as she? Or maybe it really was something so petty as she was upset that you didn't take care of her and make sure she got there safely, even though she said she didn't need it. Sounds like there might've been more going on there, though. I dunno if I'd chalk that up to just "I wasn't chivalrous enough".


I wanted to make one more point about the gay club comparison, though. You're right in that he shouldn't get hit on any more than you do at a straight club. However, it's also probably a new experience for him. I've never been at a gay club- not because I'm a closed-minded bigot, but because I've never had a reason to. And I'm sure as hell not used to getting hit on all of the time. Many women are used to being hit on everywhere- not just at clubs.
The weird thing is, most of the friends we associate with go to the gay club. The guy who invited us goes pretty often, he's entirely straight, and he's good friends with this guy. However, another one of his best friends is Israeli and quite conservative... and his reaction when invited was, "No, I don't need to be associated with that... it's a small city, and people are quick to label." That response I could honestly understand. Enough people have negative views toward being gay, that I can understand not wanting to be labeled as such. Hell, I don't even want it to be publicly known about me, and I actually *am*. Anyway, I don't really think he's never had a reason to go... some of our friends really do go quite often. And as far as getting hit on goes, I don't really get why it's such a big deal. Women are "used to" it... and yet we still manage to have a great time. I'm not saying that I expect a guy to be like "Hey guys, can we go to the gay club??" But if you're invited, and you decline solely because it's a gay club (and would instantly join if it wasn't one), I'm not a fan.


Llamas, I would have quit that bitch faster than I could type "The 'Oh' Moment."

My guy likes opening the car door and walking between me and the street, but those are things that I don't really care about, and sometimes I just like being treated like a Lady. But if I had said "hey don't do that please" and he insisted, I'd probably be outta there, because life is too short to be in a relationship with someone who can't listen and doesn't respect your wishes.

Total agreement here. I'm not offended by the simple act or offer. But if I ask a guy NOT to do it, and he doesn't listen, it's a problem. And what's even worse is the event that I hold a door for a guy because I happen to be closer to the door, or if I offer to pay because why not? and he gets all defensive and macho about it... that's a problem. But I'm not gonna be like, "How dare you hold that door for me!! You're only doing it because you're sexist." A kind gesture is a far cry from doing things in a sexist manner.

Llamas
02-10-2012, 04:41 PM
I'd suggest continue the "We're not equal" conversation. There's no telling what he was going to say. It could have been "If someone cuts down a tree and wants one of use to carry the super heavy logs somewhere, society would say he would expect me to do it." Then again it could have been "Women really shouldn't vote. Their brains can't comprehend complex thinking like that."
True, I do hope it comes up again. The irony of the situation is that he complained a few weeks ago about Slovenian women, and how they all just wish for a man to come "rescue" them and save them from their mundane lives. First of all, I haven't met any Slovenian women like that. And second of all, what does this guy even want? Does he want a girl he can protect and take care of? Or does he want a girl who's independent and takes care of herself?


Also with the the problem of chivalry, I can't help but to say to just wait it out. This is a new relationship. He's probably really excited to be able to do these things. I've been dating my girlfriend for eight months now, and I still do those things. But here's what will probably happen: comfort will set in. What people seem to forget (especially women with their puny brains that can't hold a lot of information (haha)) is that relationships settle down. Look at older couples. They're perfectly happy letting someone open the door for themselves. Chair aren't pulled out for ladies. After a while, you become friends - not boyfriend/girlfriend. And that is completely ok! Everyone thinks that this point of the relationship is closest to the end. It's not. You're supposed to be best friends with your mate.

You're right about relationships settling with time, but it's not the literal action that bothers me; it's his attitude toward gays and women. But I'm not going to sever friendship with him; I do want to talk about these things more, but I just realized that not being gay-supportive and viewing feminism as a BAD thing are just total deal breakers for me.


Now it makes sense as to why I understood all of his points.

Waaaaaait... What's his first name?

Haha. His name is Jan. He's of Slovenian heritage.


As far as women not being equal to men, I think that's just bullcrap. That's not to say that I don't think men and women should have different roles in certain areas. But neither gender is greater. I think chivalry is a pretty good thing, and I attempt to be chivalrous.
But would you feel demasculated if a woman held the door for you? Or walked up the stairs ahead of you? There's still a big difference here.


I can really understand the gay club thing. I don't think I'd ever be able to get used to that. I would be unbelievably uncomfortable (and I come from Canada, the United States' gay little brother). It seems that he feels it's unnatural, and maybe he has a good argument for that. You should ask him about that. Or not. Whatever you want.
I take it you've never been to a gay club? I kinda get the feeling that most men who say they'd be uncomfortable in a gay club, have never been. God, the Gay 90s in Minneapolis is one the biggest gay clubs around, and it's like 30% straight people nowadays. Even before I realized I was interested in women, I had a blast there! And I wasn't a fan of women hitting on me, but it was fun... just seems like a lack of exposure to me.

killer_queen
02-10-2012, 05:33 PM
Llamas, the thing he said about taking it to the grave sounds a bit extreme. Although I don't get on well with homophobes sometimes I can understand them, it still is a new subject for some people. But when they say serious things like taking it to the grave that's where it gets disgusting. Someone who doesn't like gays is unpleasant but not unusual in today's world. Someone who defends this like an idealogy and uses the works like grave? Definitely creepy.

And about chivalry, I don't think we need it. What we need is kindness, towards everyone. As a woman I hold doors, give my seat in public transport and do anything else I can do to help others. But this chivalry thing made women expect that all the kindness should be directed to them and they deserve all those things by just being a woman. Maybe it's just the women here though.

Too bad you can't stand Wagner, you shouldn't let thing like that affect you. I usually remind myself that almost everyone was a Nazi back then, it works.

Little_Miss_1565
02-10-2012, 05:51 PM
I overlooked a point someone made (Al?) about it not always being an issue of chivalry to walk someone to their car. There have been a number of nights where a friend has walked me to a cab or the subway as a safety issue. I don't take issue with that stuff.

WebDudette
02-10-2012, 06:42 PM
The prospect of going to a gay club with some friends came up a couple days ago, I said I would go and I'm sure I would. I'd definitely feel uncomfortable though, not really because it's a gay club, but because I feel uncomfortable at bars, parties where I don't know anyone, strip clubs, and presumably regular clubs. I don't think that it being a gay club would add anything to it for me, but I guess I'll have to wait and see.

The whole overbearing masculinity thing sounds to me like he is overly insecure. He sounds like the same type of guy who'd be upset with a girl because she had too many male friends. That's what kind of puts me off, based on your small descriptions. I can't stand guys like that. People who think it's some kind of crime against men to watch Brokeback Mountain, drink tea (I wish I made this up), or watch a Ryan Goseling movie. I'm very possibly projecting right now, because I know too many people like this and fucking loathe them.

As far as chivalry, I do a lot of things like that, but I'm not sure I do it more for one sex or the other. My friends and I often pick up the bill for each other, I will walk most of my close friends to their car if they are leaving my house or a party, I pretty much always open the door for people. Actually, I suppose I am more likely to walk a female friend to her car, for the reasons Al stated.

jacknife737
02-10-2012, 06:43 PM
I'd echo the thoughts about the walking to the car/door not necessarily being sexist. I'm a guy, and i'll do that with my male friends, sometimes it's a safety thing, sometimes it just seems polite.

Llamas
02-10-2012, 07:35 PM
I don't think I mentioned anything about having a problem being walked to my car or anything... until I mentioned that I had no problem with this guy walking me home :P Maybe I missed something, but a few people have brought that up as not being chivalry? Or is it in response to Treez? I don't really consider it chivalry, either... it's just a nice thing to do, and yeah, regardless of gender, even. Except the one time this guy straight-up told me, "You need a man to walk you home and protect you." I mean, really? Just make the gesture, haha.

Al Coholic
02-10-2012, 08:08 PM
However, this:

(and ps, as far as gay clubs... no, not all gay men are aggresive hypersexuals, but some are, and the culture of whats acceptable has a lot lower bar than say, hitting on women. A straight man in a gay club may feel a lot like a woman in a club of nothing buy straight guys who are way too forward. You know, extremely uncomfortable?)


Everyone in a gay club is a man who's way too forward? But men in a straight club aren't too forward? It's pretty much exactly the same. My male friends don't get hit on any more in a gay club than my female friends and I do in a straight club. It's extremely uncomfortable for us, too, when hypersexual men hit on us, but we don't make such ridiculous claims and refuse to go. This includes lesbian friends of mine.
Not to jump on you and be a dick or anything, but I think you kinda whiffed on that one. No, not everyone in a gay club is a man who's way too forward. That was the first thing I said. Straight men can be too forward, and it is pretty much exactly the same... that was the other point I was making. Only, worse. Because there is a cultural backlash from men being too forward with women, but not as much from men on men(that I have personally observed) Did he claim every guy wanted to bang him? Or just that the possibility of being hit on by men who may or may not be aggresive doesn't sound like a good time? The first may be silly but the latter is completely reasonable, in my opinion.

XYlophonetreeZ
02-10-2012, 08:13 PM
Okay, I'm back. To be fair here, maybe she was just upset about it because she would have liked to have spent that extra time with you, but since you so quickly accepted the "no", she felt like you weren't as invested as she? Or maybe it really was something so petty as she was upset that you didn't take care of her and make sure she got there safely, even though she said she didn't need it. Sounds like there might've been more going on there, though. I dunno if I'd chalk that up to just "I wasn't chivalrous enough".

Well yeah, I was definitely preoccupied. I wasn't trying to say I wasn't chivalrous enough. We did walk together about halfway and then our paths diverged. The bus stop was like 100 yards away from where we were and we were in an extremely safe place. I don't want to dwell on this much because I'm way past this incident in my life, but it was more that she said "no, it's OK, you need to study," and I was too preoccupied to take any underlying hint. But the main issue beneath all that was that I thought we were comfortable enough with each other to say what we really meant and not play that kind of "no really means yes" game. Apparently I thought wrong. And meanwhile, your issue is that you ask a guy not to do something and he persists. My problem apparently was that I didn't persist. But again, I think that's a southern culture thing on my end.



The weird thing is, most of the friends we associate with go to the gay club. The guy who invited us goes pretty often, he's entirely straight, and he's good friends with this guy. However, another one of his best friends is Israeli and quite conservative... and his reaction when invited was, "No, I don't need to be associated with that... it's a small city, and people are quick to label." That response I could honestly understand. Enough people have negative views toward being gay, that I can understand not wanting to be labeled as such. Hell, I don't even want it to be publicly known about me, and I actually *am*. Anyway, I don't really think he's never had a reason to go... some of our friends really do go quite often. And as far as getting hit on goes, I don't really get why it's such a big deal. Women are "used to" it... and yet we still manage to have a great time. I'm not saying that I expect a guy to be like "Hey guys, can we go to the gay club??" But if you're invited, and you decline solely because it's a gay club (and would instantly join if it wasn't one), I'm not a fan.

I disagree with this part. I think the former (afraid of being labeled) is a pretty weak reason not to go. Especially since anyone who saw him there would by definition have to be in the gay club themselves. Besides, who really cares what assholes think? I think societal pressure already causes tons of today's bigotry.

As for the "being hit on" part, it's probably not a big deal. But I think it's getting over that initial hump that's the hardest. It's like jumping into cold water or something. Like, he's probably never, in his whole life, been in an environment where he might get hit on by other guys. So he doesn't know that it's not a big deal yet. That said, he should be more open-minded about going, especially if you were accompanying him.

WebDudette
02-11-2012, 12:00 AM
a couple of my hypothetical deal breakers are overly entitled people and people who have no intention of ever trying new things. I'm not talking about people who are afraid of heights and don't want to skydive, but people who have no intention of trying lamb because they never ate it as a kid. There is something about people who are unwilling to try new foods that just really gets to me. Obviously there are others, homophobic people, racists, sexists, fundamental theists, etc.

I was listening to loveline and deal breakers was a topic. Some people had the most ridiculous shit going on. One guy said that he wouldn't date a girl whose thighs didn't touch because girls like that are self-centered, high maintenance, and entitled. Uhh... one guy said he didn't like it if a girl wasn't comfortable farting in front of him with in a month of dating, and one guy said he'd never date a girl who had a lot of male friends.

Llamas
02-11-2012, 05:33 AM
Well yeah, I was definitely preoccupied. I wasn't trying to say I wasn't chivalrous enough. We did walk together about halfway and then our paths diverged. The bus stop was like 100 yards away from where we were and we were in an extremely safe place. I don't want to dwell on this much because I'm way past this incident in my life, but it was more that she said "no, it's OK, you need to study," and I was too preoccupied to take any underlying hint. But the main issue beneath all that was that I thought we were comfortable enough with each other to say what we really meant and not play that kind of "no really means yes" game. Apparently I thought wrong. And meanwhile, your issue is that you ask a guy not to do something and he persists. My problem apparently was that I didn't persist. But again, I think that's a southern culture thing on my end.
I'm sorry, I didn't intend to make you feel bad or guilty... it wasn't necessarily your fault, either, that she didn't think you were invested or not. It sounds like a pretty lame reason to be upset to me. And I could understand if, where you live, you feel more of a push to act this way because women really expect this kind of stuff... I've never lived in the south; in Minnesota, people are super liberal (hey, it's the biggest hipster state and Minneapolis is the best city for biking... also the gayest city), so I think if you try that with most women there, they'll be confused and a bit put off by the actions.


I disagree with this part. I think the former (afraid of being labeled) is a pretty weak reason not to go. Especially since anyone who saw him there would by definition have to be in the gay club themselves. Besides, who really cares what assholes think? I think societal pressure already causes tons of today's bigotry.
I do agree with you there, actually, but I just meant that I could see why that would worry him. But say an obnoxious, gossipy colleague sees you there because he was dragged there with his friends. Sure, you were also dragged there, but gossipy colleague sees you there, and the next day, everyone at work thinks you're gay. It's not a bad thing to be gay, and I don't mean that in a "omg can you imagine if everyone thought you were gay?!" way (though, *can* you imagine if gay colleagues found out? If you weren't already uncomfortable being hit on, try opening up the possibility of that happening at work :P), but I don't want my bosses and such to know about my sexuality... they can assume I'm straight if they want, and it's easier that way (as sad as that may be). So I could understand him being concerned about that happening.


As for the "being hit on" part, it's probably not a big deal. But I think it's getting over that initial hump that's the hardest. It's like jumping into cold water or something. Like, he's probably never, in his whole life, been in an environment where he might get hit on by other guys. So he doesn't know that it's not a big deal yet. That said, he should be more open-minded about going, especially if you were accompanying him.


Not to jump on you and be a dick or anything, but I think you kinda whiffed on that one. No, not everyone in a gay club is a man who's way too forward. That was the first thing I said. Straight men can be too forward, and it is pretty much exactly the same... that was the other point I was making. Only, worse. Because there is a cultural backlash from men being too forward with women, but not as much from men on men(that I have personally observed) Did he claim every guy wanted to bang him? Or just that the possibility of being hit on by men who may or may not be aggresive doesn't sound like a good time? The first may be silly but the latter is completely reasonable, in my opinion.

To both of you on this point: I get your points, I see what you're saying. And I guess what it comes down to is a lack of exposure - as in, go there, see what it's like, and realize it's not a big deal. I think I'd also have a hard time dating someone who absolutely won't try something so tame as this just because it sounds "uncomfortable".

Oh, and on Treez's comment that I'd be going with him: even makes it more ridiculous!! Every single time I've seen a straight couple in a gay bar, nobody hits on either of them! Because, um, they're not stupid just because they're gay. They see straight people, and leave well enough alone because it's not worth the effort of barking up that tree. I mean, straight guys don't tend to hit on women who are hanging around with their boyfriends, either. It's logical. If a guy is so afraid of being hit on (still, super arrogant attitude... most of the guys I've heard say this are not that hot - gay guys have higher standards than women in terms of looks :P) he should go with a girl and act like they're together. Or, you know, actually go with a girl he's dating. Easy.


a couple of my hypothetical deal breakers are overly entitled people and people who have no intention of ever trying new things. I'm not talking about people who are afraid of heights and don't want to skydive, but people who have no intention of trying lamb because they never ate it as a kid. There is something about people who are unwilling to try new foods that just really gets to me. Obviously there are others, homophobic people, racists, sexists, fundamental theists, etc.
I have to agree with you here. I actually dated someone like this last year, and it was impossible for me. I bought ground beef to make tacos, as she'd never had tacos nor ground beef, and she refused to eat them because the meat looked weird. Not trying new things - not having a sense of adventure in the slightest - is a huge deal breaker. And of course, everything you listed at the end is something I can't put up with.

(Kind of a non sequitur from that) It's funny how a racist nowadays will be completely rejected from any social circle - last night, a guy randomly joined our group for a bit, and started saying "nigger" a lot... someone asked if he was racist, and then we all stopped talking to him. But I still see people saying sexist or homophobic things drifting in and out of social circles... last weekend, a friend of mine was talking to some others about how he's accepted that his wife is sort of "weaker" than him, and doesn't make logical decisions, but that he's accepted that if he wanted to be with someone who's on an equal level with him and who uses logic, he'd have to have married a man. I guess people seem uncomfortable about it (I was equally put off in both situations), and some groups won't allow it, but it's not rejected out of hand as often, I guess. Maybe it's just my experience. And I'm sure it'll change in the future.


I was listening to loveline and deal breakers was a topic. Some people had the most ridiculous shit going on. One guy said that he wouldn't date a girl whose thighs didn't touch because girls like that are self-centered, high maintenance, and entitled. Uhh... one guy said he didn't like it if a girl wasn't comfortable farting in front of him with in a month of dating, and one guy said he'd never date a girl who had a lot of male friends.
Oh. My. God. I bet these guys are shit ugly, too. I hated that movie, but it totally reminds me of Shallow Hal. The second one is weird, but the most reasonable... the first is super WTF and I don't really get it, and the third is super controlling and has potential to be kinda scary.

Isolated Fury
02-11-2012, 06:48 AM
Haha. His name is Jan. He's of Slovenian heritage.
Ok. I had to check. Hahaha. I have a cousin who is teaching in that area.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-11-2012, 09:04 PM
But would you feel demasculated if a woman held the door for you? Or walked up the stairs ahead of you? There's still a big difference here.


If demasculated was a word, I just might feel it a little bit. Not with the stair thing, I don't really get that. Does it have something to do with being a leader or something?

If a girl held a door open for me, I wouldn't so much feel emasculated as much as I'd just feel like I didn't meet an unspoken obligation or I demonstrated really bad manners or something.

Llamas
02-12-2012, 05:26 AM
If demasculated was a word, I just might feel it a little bit. Not with the stair thing, I don't really get that. Does it have something to do with being a leader or something?

If a girl held a door open for me, I wouldn't so much feel emasculated as much as I'd just feel like I didn't meet an unspoken obligation or I demonstrated really bad manners or something.

- Damn it. When I wrote it, I knew it wasn't right, but I couldn't find the right word. I just went ahead and used it anyway :P

- What if a girl tells you straight-up, "Hey, listen. I don't believe chivalry is necessary. I'm pro-equality, and would prefer you don't do things like this all the time." Would you STILL feel that way?

WebDudette
02-12-2012, 06:02 AM
male or female, whoever gets to the door first holds it open. I wouldn't think anything of it unless some asshole didn't hold it open.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-12-2012, 11:37 AM
- What if a girl tells you straight-up, "Hey, listen. I don't believe chivalry is necessary. I'm pro-equality, and would prefer you don't do things like this all the time." Would you STILL feel that way?

I don't know.... such a difficult question.
That situation has never come up, it's hard to say how I'd feel.

Alison
02-18-2012, 04:47 AM
I'm sorry to reply to this thread a bit late, but I would actually feel kind of offended if a guy treated me like this.
I don't mind the odd bit of chivalry, but walking on the road side of the footpath? That's the first time I've ever heard of that, and it just seems so ridiculous or something. Is that a common thing? Maybe it's different here, I'm not too sure!
Anyway, if my boyfriend ever declared that he didn't feel like men and women were equal (intellectually etc) I would seriously start having doubts. I would also seriously consider leaving him if he expected me to follow any female 'norms' and treated me a whole lot differently to other people.

So yes, I think I would quite probably stop dating someone for the same reasons you did. I'm not really sure I can think of any other not so typical dealbreakers.

Baldwin
02-18-2012, 05:13 AM
I agree with llamas. I hate when I move halfway across the fucking planet to some backwoods conservative shitbox of a developing country and start a relationship there, only to find that my new girlfriend subscribes to social and cultural norms that are objectively wrong, and refuses to immediately accept my superior culture and beliefs.

It's like that time I moved to Botswana and got engaged, and my fiancee kept insisting that I had to pay her father in goats. Everybody knows that trading goats for women is deeply offensive, but for some reason she didn't. There was obviously something seriously wrong with her on a personal level.

Alison
02-18-2012, 05:23 AM
I agree with llamas. I hate when I move halfway across the fucking planet to some backwoods conservative shitbox of a developing country and start a relationship there, only to find that my new girlfriend subscribes to social and cultural norms that are objectively wrong, and refuses to immediately accept my superior culture and beliefs.

It's like that time I moved to Botswana and got engaged, and my fiancee kept insisting that I had to pay her father in goats. Everybody knows that trading goats for women is deeply offensive, but for some reason she didn't. There was obviously something seriously wrong with her on a personal level.

She said that he was from the US:confused:

Llamas
02-18-2012, 05:55 AM
I agree with llamas. I hate when I move halfway across the fucking planet to some backwoods conservative shitbox of a developing country and start a relationship there, only to find that my new girlfriend subscribes to social and cultural norms that are objectively wrong, and refuses to immediately accept my superior culture and beliefs.

It's like that time I moved to Botswana and got engaged, and my fiancee kept insisting that I had to pay her father in goats. Everybody knows that trading goats for women is deeply offensive, but for some reason she didn't. There was obviously something seriously wrong with her on a personal level.

You're usually pretty smart, but apparently you don't know the first thing about Slovenia ("backwards conservative shitbox of a developing country?" Slovenia doesn't fit any of those adjectives.), and failed to notice that the guy I was dating is American. Most Slovenians I know are pro-gay rights, pro-choice, anti-gun, etc. Kind of a typical liberal European country. I seriously don't know what you're thinking of...

Baldwin
02-18-2012, 07:17 AM
To be honest, I barely read the first post, but it's good to know you're not making the mistake of mixing with the natives. That guy sounds like a keeper, no matter what his flaws at least he's American.

Llamas
02-18-2012, 09:37 AM
To be honest, I barely read the first post, but it's good to know you're not making the mistake of mixing with the natives. That guy sounds like a keeper, no matter what his flaws at least he's American.

Good point. That's all I needed to hear.

mario_spaghettio
02-18-2012, 10:14 AM
I'm officially convinced that llamas and 1565 are 100% batshit crazy

Baldwin
02-18-2012, 10:22 AM
It's ungentlemanly to insult the honour of a lady in such a way, and even more so to use foul language in the presence of the fairer sex. On their behalf, I demand redress for your actions.

mario_spaghettio
02-18-2012, 10:45 AM
furthermore, anybody who truly believes that men and women are equal is only lying to themselves. The concept of equality among sexes is man made. Women only enjoy a level of equality because men ceded it to them. What men giveth men can taketh away. Remember that ladies.

Little_Miss_1565
02-18-2012, 02:15 PM
Mario Spaghettio Superconservative Internet Theater is hilarious.

KickHimWhenHe'sDown
02-18-2012, 03:04 PM
furthermore, anybody who truly believes that men and women are equal is only lying to themselves. The concept of equality among sexes is man made. Women only enjoy a level of equality because men ceded it to them. What men giveth men can taketh away. Remember that ladies.


Are you for real?

I have no problem if you are, I might disagree a little, but is that actually what you think?

I'm not judging, I'm just curious.